lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,023 
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 16:57:59 GMT
So it will have a better performance than OTL. Not really. Instead, it'll actually be able to reach the performance levels that Vought thought it could. When it was canceled in OTL, Vought was preparing a new windscreen for it to replace the plexiglass that was installed on the prototypes. The windscreen limited the -3 to mach 2.39 because it would melt from the heat generated beyond that point. The new windscreen would have solved that issue. Test pilots thought the Super Crusader could reach mach 2.9 on just the engine (the aircraft was still accelerating at .1 mach every 17 seconds when the throttles were pulled back at mach 2.39). Vought was a bit more conservative and figured mach 2.6 with the aircraft able to briefly reach mach 3.2 with the addition of a under development rocket motor. The Phantom was designed with that rocket in mind as well, but the Navy canceled work on it around this time. Would the test flight look like this: |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 11, 2021 17:02:40 GMT
Not really. Instead, it'll actually be able to reach the performance levels that Vought thought it could. When it was canceled in OTL, Vought was preparing a new windscreen for it to replace the plexiglass that was installed on the prototypes. The windscreen limited the -3 to mach 2.39 because it would melt from the heat generated beyond that point. The new windscreen would have solved that issue. Test pilots thought the Super Crusader could reach mach 2.9 on just the engine (the aircraft was still accelerating at .1 mach every 17 seconds when the throttles were pulled back at mach 2.39). Vought was a bit more conservative and figured mach 2.6 with the aircraft able to briefly reach mach 3.2 with the addition of a under development rocket motor. The Phantom was designed with that rocket in mind as well, but the Navy canceled work on it around this time. Would the test flight look like this: Similar, yes. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,023
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 17:16:42 GMT
Would the test flight look like this: Similar, yes. It looks strange with that pole in front of it. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 11, 2021 17:54:52 GMT
It looks strange with that pole in front of it. I believe that was something that was fitted strictly for the test program and only on the first two aircraft. The third one off the line did not have it. I think it is an extended pitot tube, as even the F4H had that same extended pole attached during the test program on the first few aircraft. See the photo below for what it would look like without it.  |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,023
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 18:06:30 GMT
It looks strange with that pole in front of it. I believe that was something that was fitted strictly for the test program and only on the first two aircraft. The third one off the line did not have it. I think it is an extended pitot tube, as even the F4H had that same extended pole attached during the test program on the first few aircraft. See the photo below for what it would look like without it. View AttachmentSo when will the first production planes leave the factory. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 11, 2021 18:19:59 GMT
I believe that was something that was fitted strictly for the test program and only on the first two aircraft. The third one off the line did not have it. I think it is an extended pitot tube, as even the F4H had that same extended pole attached during the test program on the first few aircraft. See the photo below for what it would look like without it. View AttachmentSo when will the first production planes leave the factory. Not for awhile yet. Probably sometime in 1960 or 1961. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,023
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 19:06:17 GMT
December 2, 1958
Newport News, VAThe future USS America is laid down at Newport News Shipbuilding alongside her sister, Enterprise. She will be the Navy's second nuclear powered carrier. Like her older sister, America is projected to cost roughly three hundred million dollars and is planned to join the fleet in just over three years. As previously planned, America's keel is laid in one of the massive drydocks at Newport News. So i assume that Enterprise enter service in 1961 like OTL and that America will enter service in 1962. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 11, 2021 19:09:26 GMT
December 2, 1958
Newport News, VAThe future USS America is laid down at Newport News Shipbuilding alongside her sister, Enterprise. She will be the Navy's second nuclear powered carrier. Like her older sister, America is projected to cost roughly three hundred million dollars and is planned to join the fleet in just over three years. As previously planned, America's keel is laid in one of the massive drydocks at Newport News. So i assume that Enterprise enter service in 1961 like OTL and that America will enter service in 1962. That is the current plan, yes. |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,023
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 19:10:53 GMT
So i assume that Enterprise enter service in 1961 like OTL and that America will enter service in 1962. That is the current plan, yes. Unless something happens in the meantime, like Congress deciding to scrap America. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 11, 2021 20:29:28 GMT
That is the current plan, yes. Unless something happens in the meantime, like Congress deciding to scrap America. She's already under construction, with her reactors already being manufactured as well. That's a lot of money already sunk into her for Congress to just eat. |
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 11, 2021 21:59:32 GMT
So now the Indonesians have the weapons and the platform to launch it from, now they need the MPA to provide the targeting data to their strike fleet. Now if they can somehow integrate an air to surface strike concurrent with a surface action group attack, that would lead to quite a few people sitting up and taking notice of them. Although the latter is likely a bridge too far given the historical antipathy between the Air Force and the Navy at the time.
Like you I think the Crusader III was a missed opportunity particularly for both the Brits & the French, by integrating that type into service both of their Air Arms end up with a great fighter at an excellent price. Then add in the A - 7 Corsair and you have an effective strike package from a smaller deck.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 11, 2021 22:22:00 GMT
So now the Indonesians have the weapons and the platform to launch it from, now they need the MPA to provide the targeting data to their strike fleet. Now if they can somehow integrate an air to surface strike concurrent with a surface action group attack, that would lead to quite a few people sitting up and taking notice of them. Although the latter is likely a bridge too far given the historical antipathy between the Air Force and the Navy at the time. Like you I think the Crusader III was a missed opportunity particularly for both the Brits & the French, by integrating that type into service both of their Air Arms end up with a great fighter at an excellent price. Then add in the A - 7 Corsair and you have an effective strike package from a smaller deck. They have a number of Tu-2s and B-25s that they can use in the reconnaissance role to locate any naval forces. They also have quite a few P-51s they could use as spotters in the Littorals. They were also equipped with a number of IL-14s that can be used as an MPA along with PBY Catalinas and L-12 Junior Electras. So while they don't have dedicated MPA aircraft, they have plenty of other aircraft that can fill the role. And the Crusader III was a huge missed opportunity along with the F11F-2 Super Tiger. It's damn near prefect for the British and French fleets. |
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 11, 2021 23:42:36 GMT
So now the Indonesians have the weapons and the platform to launch it from, now they need the MPA to provide the targeting data to their strike fleet. Now if they can somehow integrate an air to surface strike concurrent with a surface action group attack, that would lead to quite a few people sitting up and taking notice of them. Although the latter is likely a bridge too far given the historical antipathy between the Air Force and the Navy at the time. Like you I think the Crusader III was a missed opportunity particularly for both the Brits & the French, by integrating that type into service both of their Air Arms end up with a great fighter at an excellent price. Then add in the A - 7 Corsair and you have an effective strike package from a smaller deck. They have a number of Tu-2s and B-25s that they can use in the reconnaissance role to locate any naval forces. They also have quite a few P-51s they could use as spotters in the Littorals. They were also equipped with a number of IL-14s that can be used as an MPA along with PBY Catalinas and L-12 Junior Electras. So while they don't have dedicated MPA aircraft, they have plenty of other aircraft that can fill the role. And the Crusader III was a huge missed opportunity along with the F11F-2 Super Tiger. It's damn near prefect for the British and French fleets. Out of the available aircraft the PBY Catalina is probably the best aircraft to use in the MPA role, particularly if you can add an air search radar to the aircraft. The reason for my preference is that it has long legs and as a seaplane makes it easier for the Indonesians to launch & recover it across their archipelago. In time a land based MPA would replace it in the role, but throughout the '60s the Catalina would still be a good fit for a developing country. Plus the Soviets also used them, so that provides another source of spares. Yeah I was just thinking about the butterflies with the Crusader III and realised that the Brits & Froggies could use it for their Navies. Heck it could be a perfect aircraft for the Dutch too potentially taking the SCS in a completely different direction, which means that the light to medium carrier continues until the end of the Cold War or longer. This probably pushes the Soviets away from V/STOL themselves & towards a conventional CTOL design for their carriers - heck that means a Mig 21 variant (shudder) landing on a carrier. Can the Indonesians end up with a carrier ITTL? Certainly Thailand might have one earlier too. |
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Jan 12, 2021 0:37:10 GMT
They have a number of Tu-2s and B-25s that they can use in the reconnaissance role to locate any naval forces. They also have quite a few P-51s they could use as spotters in the Littorals. They were also equipped with a number of IL-14s that can be used as an MPA along with PBY Catalinas and L-12 Junior Electras. So while they don't have dedicated MPA aircraft, they have plenty of other aircraft that can fill the role. And the Crusader III was a huge missed opportunity along with the F11F-2 Super Tiger. It's damn near prefect for the British and French fleets. Out of the available aircraft the PBY Catalina is probably the best aircraft to use in the MPA role, particularly if you can add an air search radar to the aircraft. The reason for my preference is that it has long legs and as a seaplane makes it easier for the Indonesians to launch & recover it across their archipelago. In time a land based MPA would replace it in the role, but throughout the '60s the Catalina would still be a good fit for a developing country. Plus the Soviets also used them, so that provides another source of spares. Yeah I was just thinking about the butterflies with the Crusader III and realised that the Brits & Froggies could use it for their Navies. Heck it could be a perfect aircraft for the Dutch too potentially taking the SCS in a completely different direction, which means that the light to medium carrier continues until the end of the Cold War or longer. This probably pushes the Soviets away from V/STOL themselves & towards a conventional CTOL design for their carriers - heck that means a Mig 21 variant (shudder) landing on a carrier. Can the Indonesians end up with a carrier ITTL? Certainly Thailand might have one earlier too. Agreed re. the Catalina. As for the Crusader III, we need to keep in mind, it's still a 38,000+ pound aircraft, without drop tanks or bombs hanging from it. Fully bombed up, it would be around 43,000 pounds (assuming no Sparrows are carried). Even with the variable incidence wing and BLC system, just with an A2A loadout, it still has a power off stall speed of 134 knots. To be safe, you need around 145 knots WOD to launch. The C11+Essex combo can get you to 155 knots sustained (136 from the cat and 19 from the ship). It's still marginal for the smaller carriers. Hermes MIGHT be able to launch one. But it's close. Anything older and smaller I'd be doubtful of. But yes, for any country that wants a light-ish carrier, it could be a good option. The Super Tiger would probably be a better one though. |
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 13, 2021 6:08:31 GMT
I forgot to ask, but does KRI Irian make an appearance ITTL? For those that don't know the Indonesians operated a Soviet Sverdlov class heavy cruiser IOTL from 1963 to around 1972, when she was scrapped due to operating costs & lack of spare parts. Here is a picture of her.  |
|
