lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 4, 2020 8:55:47 GMT
I've been thinking about this over my morning coffee, but with the greater proliferation of carriers ITTL. Does another carrier vs carrier battle occur ITTL? Also will the Dutch continue in the carrier game - I hope so as I like the cloggies. it's a possibility that a carrier on carrier battle takes place, but I haven't made any decisions either way. As for the Dutch, they've still got the Doorman. And i hoop they keep it as a carrier with fighters and not turn into a ASW carrier in the future.
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 7, 2020 0:09:55 GMT
it's a possibility that a carrier on carrier battle takes place, but I haven't made any decisions either way. As for the Dutch, they've still got the Doorman. And i hoop they keep it as a carrier with fighters and not turn into a ASW carrier in the future. That's an interesting point - the question is what's the maximum size carrier that the Netherlands can operate? Are they better operating a V/STOL or Sea Control Ship - my instinct is that would be a better fit - otherwise something similar to the Tarawa class? That way they can operate fixed wing aircraft and be used as a platform for your Marines.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Dec 7, 2020 20:44:14 GMT
And i hoop they keep it as a carrier with fighters and not turn into a ASW carrier in the future. That's an interesting point - the question is what's the maximum size carrier that the Netherlands can operate? Are they better operating a V/STOL or Sea Control Ship - my instinct is that would be a better fit - otherwise something similar to the Tarawa class? That way they can operate fixed wing aircraft and be used as a platform for your Marines. At the time in question, the Royal Netherlands Navy was the biggest it could realistically be. And maybe even a little bigger. A lot of their destroyers were built, spent a few months active, then went straight into reserve. They were operating a carrier, 4 submarines, 14 destroyers and 3 light cruisers. Anything more than that and I don't think they could man it. Something like a SCS along with maybe 8-10 destroyers and 2-3 subs is probably their maximum fleet and ship size
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 7, 2020 20:51:34 GMT
That's an interesting point - the question is what's the maximum size carrier that the Netherlands can operate? Are they better operating a V/STOL or Sea Control Ship - my instinct is that would be a better fit - otherwise something similar to the Tarawa class? That way they can operate fixed wing aircraft and be used as a platform for your Marines. At the time in question, the Royal Netherlands Navy was the biggest it could realistically be. And maybe even a little bigger. A lot of their destroyers were built, spent a few months active, then went straight into reserve. They were operating a carrier, 4 submarines, 14 destroyers and 3 light cruisers. Anything more than that and I don't think they could man it. Something like a SCS along with maybe 8-10 destroyers and 2-3 subs is probably their maximum fleet and ship size Had made a list of the Royal Netherlands Navy on Page 5 of the thread based on the 1957 figure, have updated it to fit the 1958 figure, so this list below is what they have: Aircraft carrierColossus-class aircraft carrierHNLMS Karel Doorman Cruisers De Zeven Provinciën-class cruiserHNLMS De Zeven Provinciën HNLMS De Ruyter DestroyerFriesland-class destroyerHNLMS Friesland HNLMS Groningen HNLMS Limburg HNLMS Overijssel HNLMS Drenthe HNLMS Utrecht HNLMS Rotterdam HNLMS Amsterdam Holland-class destroyerHNLMS Holland HNLMS Zeeland HNLMS Noord-Brabant HNLMS Gelderland S-class destroyerHNLMS Evertsen, acquired from the British in 1946. HNLMS Kortenaer, acquired from the British in 1945, converted to a fast frigate in 1957. HNLMS Piet Hein, acquired from the British in 1945, converted to a fast frigate in 1957. Frigate Roofdier-class frigateHNLMS Wolf HNLMS Fret HNLMS Hermelijn HNLMS Vos HNLMS Panter HNLMS Jaguar Van Amstel-class frigateCannon-class destroyer escort built for the US Navy during World War II. HNLMS Van Amstel HNLMS De Bitter HNLMS Van Ewijck HNLMS Dubois HNLMS De Zeeuw HNLMS Van Zijll. CorvettesBathurst-class corvettesHNLMS Boeroe HNLMS Batjan HNLMS Ceram SubmarinesBalao-class submarine (Walrus-class submarine)HNLMS Walrus HNLMS Zeeleeuw British T-class submarine (Zwaardvisch-class submarine)HNLMS Zwaardvisch HNLMS Tijgerhaai
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 7, 2020 23:06:10 GMT
That's an interesting point - the question is what's the maximum size carrier that the Netherlands can operate? Are they better operating a V/STOL or Sea Control Ship - my instinct is that would be a better fit - otherwise something similar to the Tarawa class? That way they can operate fixed wing aircraft and be used as a platform for your Marines. At the time in question, the Royal Netherlands Navy was the biggest it could realistically be. And maybe even a little bigger. A lot of their destroyers were built, spent a few months active, then went straight into reserve. They were operating a carrier, 4 submarines, 14 destroyers and 3 light cruisers. Anything more than that and I don't think they could man it. Something like a SCS along with maybe 8-10 destroyers and 2-3 subs is probably their maximum fleet and ship size Cruisers are still bloody valuable in this timeframe, so if you wanted a fleet rationalisation plan, it would look like: 1 x carrier 1 x light cruiser (50 % reduction) 8 x destroyers (50 % reduction) 4 x frigates (75 % reduction) 2 x submarines + 1 (50 % reduction + an extra Walrus) This provides a fair bit of flexibility as a fleet and, they should really add 2 AOR ships to the mix. Here they have a carrier that can have a light cruiser accompanying her with three destroyers and a frigate. Leaving enough for 2 x SAUs or alternatively you can have 1 carrier group, a SAG built around the light cruiser and a SAU. All of these would add meaningful value to the Netherland's NATO contribution. Spain & Italy would fulfill a similar role on NATO's southern flank. Plus the Dutch SSK drivers are bloody good, great boats & very aggressive Captains - since they are also Perisher graduates.
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ssgtc
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 5, 2021 21:59:50 GMT
October 4, 1958 Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia
A preliminary specification for a new aircraft carrier is submitted for review to Sir Phillip McBride. The specification calls for a carrier of between forty and sixty thousand tons at full load, a length of no less than 850 feet with a maximum length of 970 feet and a beam no greater than 147 feet so as to fit within the Captain Cook Graving Dock on Garden Island. Two steam catapults capable of launching an aircraft weighing 40,000 pounds at a minimum speed of 130 knots or an aircraft weighing 70,000 pounds at 100 knots were to be fitted. Arresting gear and deck strong enough to recover aircraft weighting at least 50,000 pounds at landing would be required along with command and control facilities sufficient to command a fleet from. And finally, the ability to carry at least forty tactical aircraft of the latest type along with support aircraft such as Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft and helicopters would be needed. This would give them a carrier large enough for a powerful airwing today and future proof enough for tomorrow.
Sir Phillip read over the specifications and chuckled to himself. The Navy was making their intentions very clear with this paper. They wanted either a new build, custom designed carrier or a second hand Essex class. Flipping to the page listing the desired radar and radio fit, he was surprised to see that American equipment was listed as the preferred choice over British supplied equipment. This would mark a significant shift in Australian defense policy and acquisitions. For decades, British ships, aircraft and equipment had been preferred. But with the latest preference for American aircraft, he supposed that it only made sense to prefer compatible radars and radios as well.
Making a series of notes, he sent a memo back to the Navy asking for their minimum required needs. He knew without even having to ask that Parliament would never approve the costs to design and build a one-off carrier. And the American supercarriers were far more ship, and far more expense, than Australia needed. Perhaps if the British were designing and building a new class of carrier he could swing buying a new ship. Particularly if he could get the ship built in Australia. But they weren't. So it would be an American ship. And likely one of their Essex class ships unless the Americans were willing to eat the cost to downsize one of their existing designs to fit Australian needs. He somehow rather doubted that they would be.
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 5, 2021 22:04:00 GMT
October 5, 1958 Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia
The Air Force, like the Navy the day before, submitted their recommendation to Sir Phillip for their new bomber force. They recommended that the Royal Australian Air Force purchase 36 North American A3J-1 bombers modified to increase their conventional attack capability with the addition of two hardpoints under each wing enabling the aircraft to carry either four external fuel tanks or up to 3,000 pounds of conventional bombs per pylon and two under fuselage hardpoints with each capable of carrying up to 3,000 pounds of bombs. The internal bomb bay that was used to deliver nuclear weapons would be retained and used for additional fuel tanks of the buddy refueling system. Here, a note was attached recommending that Australia study the acquisition of nuclear weapons of its own as regional stability seemed to be eroding and having a nuclear deterrent, and the means to deliver it, would go far in ensuring Australia's security.
As Sir Phillip read on, he saw that the Air Force had made a side by side comparison of all the offered bombers they were interested in. In nearly every category, the Vigilante came out on top. It was easily the most expensive of the offered designs, being projected to cost roughly eight to nine million American dollars per aircraft, but it also offered a bomb load of 18,000 pounds when fully bombed up, assuming North American could deliver their promised strengthening improvements. Alternatively, it could deliver a 6,000 pound bomb load over a combat radius of 721nm unrefueled. With four drop tanks installed, it would have a combat range of 1900 miles with external bombs. When used in a nuclear role, it could deliver a single nuclear weapon at supersonic speeds 1100nm from base and return without a single air-to-air refueling. While it may be cheaper to buy an aircraft like the Thunderchief or F4H, they just could not do what the Vigilante could.
It really took the decision out of his hand. He would send a message to North American Aviation to request a formal proposal for 36 bombers modified to Australian requirements. Once the proposal was received, he would take it before the Prime Minister and Parliament for approval. As a separate issue, he would once again broach the subject of nuclear weapons with Prime Minister Menzies.
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Post by La Rouge Beret on Jan 5, 2021 23:45:35 GMT
The issue of nuclear weapons is one that dogged Australia during the 1950s and 1960s with the recent near death experience along the Kokoda track. With that in mind I think ITTL Australia will become a nuclear power, considering the threat posed by the Indonesians.
The Vigilante would have been a good choice and may have extended her service life with the USN with another operator using her in service. Would it be possible to use them from an ESSEX class as well?
Also I'm glad the RAN decided to go big or go home, although if the 1954 Brit carriers were built I could see us operating a third ship of the class or if those fell through some wag proposes ESSEX to the Brits & we get an Audacious class carrier.
Anyway, glad to see this is back.
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 6, 2021 0:53:16 GMT
The issue of nuclear weapons is one that dogged Australia during the 1950s and 1960s with the recent near death experience along the Kokoda track. With that in mind I think ITTL Australia will become a nuclear power, considering the threat posed by the Indonesians. The Vigilante would have been a good choice and may have extended her service life with the USN with another operator using her in service. Would it be possible to use them from an ESSEX class as well? Also I'm glad the RAN decided to go big or go home, although if the 1954 Brit carriers were built I could see us operating a third ship of the class or if those fell through some wag proposes ESSEX to the Brits & we get an Audacious class carrier. Anyway, glad to see this is back. Thanks! The A-5 could launch from an Essex class if it was clean. But as far as I am aware, the Vigilante never deployed operationally from either the Essex or Midway class. It was a HEAVY aircraft. It had a max launch weight of 79,400 pounds. The C11 cats on those carriers would struggle getting them to 100 knots. And they had a power off stall speed at launch of 147 knots at that weight. The C11 just couldn't get them going fast enough when they were heavily loaded.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 6, 2021 3:55:59 GMT
October 5, 1958 Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia The Air Force, like the Navy the day before, submitted their recommendation to Sir Phillip for their new bomber force. They recommended that the Royal Australian Air Force purchase 36 North American A3J-1 bombers modified to increase their conventional attack capability with the addition of two hardpoints under each wing enabling the aircraft to carry either four external fuel tanks or up to 3,000 pounds of conventional bombs per pylon and two under fuselage hardpoints with each capable of carrying up to 3,000 pounds of bombs. Would this be like OTL end up being the RA-5C which looking at it is a Reconnaissance aircraft.
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 6, 2021 8:48:51 GMT
October 5, 1958 Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia The Air Force, like the Navy the day before, submitted their recommendation to Sir Phillip for their new bomber force. They recommended that the Royal Australian Air Force purchase 36 North American A3J-1 bombers modified to increase their conventional attack capability with the addition of two hardpoints under each wing enabling the aircraft to carry either four external fuel tanks or up to 3,000 pounds of conventional bombs per pylon and two under fuselage hardpoints with each capable of carrying up to 3,000 pounds of bombs. Would this be like OTL end up being the RA-5C which looking at it is a Reconnaissance aircraft. It's similar, yes. This version has two additional hardpoints under the fuselage for a total of 6.
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Post by lordroel on Jan 6, 2021 15:34:16 GMT
Would this be like OTL end up being the RA-5C which looking at it is a Reconnaissance aircraft. It's similar, yes. This version has two additional hardpoints under the fuselage for a total of 6. Only the bomber version they will biy ore will they also plan to buy some reconnaissance version of the North American A3J-1 bomber.
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 6, 2021 17:20:06 GMT
It's similar, yes. This version has two additional hardpoints under the fuselage for a total of 6. Only the bomber version they will biy ore will they also plan to buy some reconnaissance version of the North American A3J-1 bomber. At present, only the bomber version is being purchased. The dedicated reconnaissance version didn't come about for a few years yet. They may be interested in buying some bolt on kits for their fleet though once they are developed.
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Post by ssgtc on Jan 6, 2021 17:23:05 GMT
November 2, 1958 Brooklyn, NY, USA
The former Leyte enters drydock at the New York Naval Shipyard to begin her overhaul in preparation for her transfer to Argentina. She is scheduled to be brought up to the same SCB-27C/125A configuration as Oriskany and Lake Champlain. Additionally, the powerplant is to be overhauled and new, automated control hardware is to be installed to reduce manning requirements for the smaller Argentine Navy. The overhaul is planned to take between twenty-eight and thirty-two months.
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Post by lordroel on Jan 6, 2021 17:23:25 GMT
Only the bomber version they will biy ore will they also plan to buy some reconnaissance version of the North American A3J-1 bomber. At present, only the bomber version is being purchased. The dedicated reconnaissance version didn't come about for a few years yet. They may be interested in buying some bolt on kits for their fleet though once they are developed. So will it be actually used on the carriers in the future ore might it just end up being a land based bomber.
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