|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 1, 2020 0:24:14 GMT
In the interim perhaps the RAN FAA can operate FJ 4 Furies, which are still outclassed compared to the Mig 19 except that the gap isn't as large as the Sea Venoms. It would also provide an interim step to operating higher performance jets and give me another model kit to build (the most important part). I'm intriguied by the well placed source within the Indonesian government - shades of the year of living dangerously (Mel Gibson film based on a book). While Argentina can acquire an ESSEX class ship given the parlous state of their economy I think she will end up as a white elephant that spends most of her time alongside, with the occasional time at sea. Much like the Thai aircraft carrier that put to sea the night before we came alongside at Sattahip RTNB, so that she could have a grand entrance next to us the following day. In this case, the source is an Indonesian plane mechanic that the ASIS has some compromising photos of. They're using it to blackmail him into cooperating with them and providing them with information on the state of Indonesia's Air Force. Surprisingly, Argentina can actually pretty easily afford it. They have three light cruisers in service (one British training ship and the two American Brooklyn class), plus a gaggle of mismatched American and British destroyers. They operated all those plus their OTL carrier. So just a little fleet rationalization and they can actually use an Essex effectively. See that is the level of detail that I love in my timelines, does that mean that there is no Peron ITTL? Or has it gone down a different path than OTL? In which case the light cruisers are reduced to one and the surplus crew transferred to newly acquired ESSEX class. Will the remaining cruiser (cough General Belgrano) be modernised at all?
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Dec 1, 2020 0:37:15 GMT
In this case, the source is an Indonesian plane mechanic that the ASIS has some compromising photos of. They're using it to blackmail him into cooperating with them and providing them with information on the state of Indonesia's Air Force. Surprisingly, Argentina can actually pretty easily afford it. They have three light cruisers in service (one British training ship and the two American Brooklyn class), plus a gaggle of mismatched American and British destroyers. They operated all those plus their OTL carrier. So just a little fleet rationalization and they can actually use an Essex effectively. See that is the level of detail that I love in my timelines, does that mean that there is no Peron ITTL? Or has it gone down a different path than OTL? In which case the light cruisers are reduced to one and the surplus crew transferred to newly acquired ESSEX class. Will the remaining cruiser (cough General Belgrano) be modernised at all? No, Peron predates the POD. At this point, the President of Argentina is Arturo Frondizi. Unlike his immediate predecessors and successors, he was actually elected President instead of being installed in a coup. He faced a huge amount of pressure from the military throughout his Presidency and he is using the purchase of an Essex class as a way to essentially shut them up for a bit. As far as the Belgrano, modernizing her to Albany class would be hugely expensive, probably on par with modernizing Leyte. Maybe if the US is willing to pay for it. Otherwise she'll get minimal upgrades.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,007
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Dec 1, 2020 3:51:22 GMT
August 10, 1958 Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, AustraliaAn intelligence report is delivered to the heads of the Royal Australian Air Force and the Royal Australian Navy. It is from a well placed source in Indonesia. Attached to the report are two grainy photographs. One shows a fighter very similar to Indonesia's MiG-17s, though with some differences. The other has a much large aircraft in it. The sleek, twin engined bomber fills the frame of the photograph. The report that the photos are stapled to provides the explanation. The pictured aircraft are the first MiG-19s and Tu-16s delivered to the Indonesian Air Force. They had arrived just over a week ago. You know i wonder if a Indonesian pilot some day decides to defect to Australia in a MiG-19, if the fighter has the range.
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 1, 2020 3:58:14 GMT
I think that it would be easier for an Indonesian pilot to fly to Singapore, as the Indonesian Air Force might reduce the risk of defection by minimising the aircraft's fuel load.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Dec 1, 2020 4:06:09 GMT
So, the wiki list the MiG-19S range as 750nm and ferry range as 1,200nm with 400 gallons of external fuel. But any defection would likely have to be flown at high speed and low level, so practical range for any theoretical defection is probably no more than 350-400nm.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,007
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Dec 1, 2020 5:04:01 GMT
I think that it would be easier for an Indonesian pilot to fly to Singapore, as the Indonesian Air Force might reduce the risk of defection by minimising the aircraft's fuel load. And fall in the hands of the British.
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 1, 2020 5:31:49 GMT
Which would also be shared with the Australians considering the timeframe.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Dec 2, 2020 0:05:41 GMT
August 15, 1958 Langley, Virginia, USA
The Australian Secret Information Service had passed on photographs to the Central Intelligence Agency showing MiG-19 fighters and Tu-16 strategic bombers in Indonesian Air Force markings. Their own sources had hinted that the Indonesians were rapidly building up a modern and lavishly equipped air force, but the CIA had assumed that they were referring the MiG-17s and Il-28s they had already purchased. However these photographs showed that Indonesia was acquiring much more serious and capable hardware. This development could have serious destabilizing effects on the region. And it would certainly have repercussions on the Navy. They were even now formulating their fleet plan for the coming years and this could factor heavily into their thinking.
The decision was made pass the report on to the Navy and to the 5th Air Force based in Japan. Hopefully they would be able to make use of the report should they ever be called into combat against Indonesia, a possibility that was looking more likely by the day given the deteriorating relations between Washington and Jakarta.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Dec 2, 2020 0:06:28 GMT
September 1, 1958 Canberra, Australian Capital Territory, Australia
The final proposals from Grumman, McDonnell and Vought sat on the desk of Sir Philip McBride, KCMG. They were all solid, well thought out offers for three very different aircraft. It would take some time and a great deal of technical knowledge to select the best option of the three remaining fighters. While he would give the proposals their due consideration, the real nuts and bolts considerations would be done by professionals within his Ministry.
On the top of the stack was the proposal from Grumman. They were offering a modified version of their F11F Tiger. In the proposal, they had dubbed the aircraft the F11F-2. It would differ from the baseline F11F-1 in having an extended fuselage, wing root fillets, an AN/APS-67 radar to give the aircraft a limited all weather capability and a J79-GE-3 engine. Additionally, they proposed to equip the aircraft with a Boundary Layer Control system to enable it to operate off the Melbourne. The aircraft would be capable of carrying up to four AAM-N-7 Sidewinder I infrared homing missiles. There would also be four underwing hardpoints from which bombs and unguided rockets or drop tanks could be hung. The aircraft would be capable of flying at mach 2.04 which made it, by far, the slowest of the three proposed aircraft. It was also the shortest ranged of the three, with only a 250nm combat radius with four sidewinders and full internal fuel. With two 150 US gallon drop tanks and two sidewinders, it was capable of extending it's combat radius to 420nm. Though it did have a combat range of 784nm with four sidewinders or 1,146nm with two sidewinders and two drop tanks. The Super Tiger was however the cheapest of the three proposals with an estimated cost of $925,000 USD each for a production run of 140 aircraft. The cost per flight hour was also the lowest of any of the proposals at just $1,179 US dollars per flight hour including maintenance costs.
The next proposal was from McDonnell for their F4H fighter bomber. Of the three aircraft, it promised to carry the heaviest warload. It was designed to carry up to eight air-to-air missiles, four AAM-N-6 Sparrow III semi-active radar homing missiles and four AAM-N-7 Sidewinder infrared homing missiles. The fighter also promised to be as capable a bomber as it was a fighter, being able to carry over 6,000 pounds of bombs on strike missions. With its twin J79-GE-8 engines, McDonnell believed that the F4H-1 would be capable of speeds up to mach 2.23. The design also promised the lowest pilot workload of the three designs with the F4H having a second crewman to operate the fighter's weapons systems and radar, leaving the pilot free to fly and fight the plane. The addition of the second crewman promised to make the design the most "future proof" of the three designs.
On internal fuel and with eight air-to-air missiles, it was projected to have a 404nm combat radius and a combat range of 1,122nm. With the addition of a 600 US gallon external fuel tank it was projected to have a combat radius of 495nm and a combat range of 1,301nm. If only four Sparrow III missiles were carried, the combat radius was extended to 410nm on internal fuel and 756nm if a 600 US gallon drop tank was carried along with two wing mounted 370 US gallon drop tanks. In that configuration, the combat range was increased to 1,803nm. Unlike the F11F proposal from Grumman, the F4H would not be able to operate from the deck of Melbourne under any conditions and would require the purchase of a new aircraft carrier for the Royal Australian Navy. When combined with the proposed purchase price and operating cost of the aircraft and the cost for a replacement aircraft carrier, the proposed aircraft from McDonnell was by far the most expensive. With a purchase price of $1,743,000 US dollars each for a production run of 140 aircraft it was far and away the most costly proposal. It also had the highest cost per flight hour at $1,347 US dollars per flight hour, including maintenance costs. Compared to the F11F, the F4H would cost the government some $114 million US dollars more to purchase and some $8 million US dollars more per year to operate based on 350 flying hours per year, per aircraft.
The final aircraft that was proposed was the Vought F8U-3E Crusader III, referred to as the Super Crusader by the US Navy and Vought. In terms of performance, the Crusader III was head and shoulders above the other two offered aircraft. With a demonstrated top speed of mach 2.39 and a promised top speed of mach 2.6 once a new windscreen was fitted replacing the acrylic one, it was easily the fastest of the three fighters. In terms of maneuverability, it showed it's heritage as being the "last of the gunfighters." In their fly off in California, the United States Navy was finding out that the Crusader III could fly literal rings around the F4H. It also boasted a combat radius of 539nm on internal fuel while armed with three AAM-N-6 Sparrow III missiles and four AAM-N-7 Sidewinder I missiles. If armed with only the three Sparrow missiles, that was increased to 562nm. It also laid claim to a combat range of 1,652 and 1,755nm respectively. With the addition of two wing mounted 327 US gallon drop tanks, the Crusader III's already impressive range climbed to 645nm with a full load of seven air-to-air missiles. With only the Sparrows carried, it would increase to 674nm. With the drop tanks carried, the Crusader laid claim to a combat range of 1,982nm while carrying seven air-to-air missiles. If only the three Sparrow missiles were carried, that would increase to 2,106nm. That was enough range to escort a strike all the way to Jakarta from Broom and almost halfway back, which would drastically decrease the need for air-to-air refueling assets.
In the ground attack role, the Vought design would include a semisubmerged hardpoint between the main landing gear that would be capable of carrying a 2,000 bomb along with two underwing hardpoints also capable of carrying a 2,000 pound bomb each or up to four 500 pound bombs on a custom ejector rack. The F4H was the more capable attack aircraft by several hundred pounds and was able to carry a large variety of ordinance as the fuselage hardpoint on the Crusader III would only be able to carry a single bomb. But for any expected engagement, the Crusader and F4H would be very evenly matched.
In the negative side of the column was the drastically higher pilot workload when compared the the Super Tiger and the F4H. Being responsible to both fly and fight the aircraft and monitor the radar and maintain lock on to the targeted aircraft there were serious concerns raised about the ability of the pilot to maintain situational awareness and conduct a successful intercept of enemy bombers and fighters. Like the F4H-1, the Crusader III would also be totally unable to operate from the Melbourne, once again necessitating the acquisition of a new carrier to enable the FAA to operate the new fighter. And this was despite the aircraft's significantly lower operating weight and the presence of a boundary layer control system compared to the F4H.
In the end, the decision would likely come down to a combination of price and performance, with a greater emphasis placed on cost. And it was here that the Crusader III shone. With a purchase price of only $1,447,000 US dollars, the hot new fighter from Vought was some twenty-seven percent cheaper than the competing design from McDonnell. Purchasing the Crusader III would save the government over $41 million US dollars. Conversely, an additional twenty-eight aircraft could be purchased for the same price as 140 F4Hs. Operating costs too were lower, with the Crusader III costing only $1,223 US dollars per flight hour including maintenance costs. That worked out to a savings of roughly $6 million US dollars a year for 140 aircraft flying 350 hours each every year when compared to the F4H. Compared to the F11F, it was only about $50 US dollars more per hour and worked out to an extra $2 million US dollars a year. Finding an extra two million dollars a year was much easier than finding an extra eight million in the opinion of Sir Phillip.
From a pure cost standpoint, Sir Phillip far preferred the F11F-2 Super Tiger over the other two options. But when balanced against the significantly higher capabilities of the Crusader III and F4H, he knew the decision would come down to one of those aircraft barring Parliament balking at purchasing a new carrier. Writing down his thoughts on all three aircraft in a memo for the Air Force and Fleet Air Arm to review, he placed the proposals in his outbox and moved on to the next item on his agenda.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Dec 2, 2020 0:08:28 GMT
Authors Note on the Preceding Update
Phew! This was, by far, my longest update in this Timeline. It also contains quite a large info dump on the specifications of the three proposed fighters. I've tried to make the numbers as accurate as possible. All of the range figures are based on the Standard Aircraft Characteristics sheets found on the Alternate Wars website. For the purchase cost, I've had to find the closest figures I could. For the F11F, the number is based on the reported cost at the time the contract was originally awarded to Grumman for the F11F-1. The proposed F11F-2 would probably cost more compared to the baseline Tiger, but in this case I assumed that Grumman would be fairly desperate for a sale and willing to take a small loss if it led to more orders later. The cost for the F4H-1 is based on the cost of an F-4C in 1965 and adjusted downward to compensate for inflation using an online inflation calculator. Likewise the data on the cost per flight hour was found on the same website and is based on the cost per flight hour of the F-4C and adjusted downwards for inflation. For the Super Crusader, the numbers are harder to come by. The best information I was able to find was in a copy of the Aeroplane Icons focusing on the Phantom that stated the first 87 F8U-3s would cost 27% less than the first 87 F4H-1s. For the cost per flight hour, well, that data is nonexistent. At least it is not existent in publicly accessible sources. So I based it on the cost per flight hour of the F-105D in 1973 and adjusted it downwards for inflation. I made the decision to use the F-105D costs per flight hour as both aircraft used the same Pratt & Whitney J75 engine. The costs per hour for the Crusader III would likely be a bit lower as it was a significantly lighter and more aerodynamic aircraft. But I went with the higher cost so it wouldn't seem like I was giving one aircraft a massive advantage unfairly. In actuality, the cost would probably be closer to the F-106 Delta Dart than the F-105 Thunderchief, but... The costs per flight hour for the F11F are honestly a best guess. The oldest reports I can find date from the 1970s, long after the Tiger had left service. So I based it on the rough cost per flight hour of the F-104 Starfighter. Both aircraft filled nearly identical roles and used nearly identical equipment, so the numbers should at least be in the same ballpark. Though if anyone has a more accurate source and number, I would be extraordinarily grateful for it and more than happy to edit as needed.
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 2, 2020 0:24:23 GMT
What you could have done for that post was to write it as a memo by Sir Phillip. As that would enable you to insert tables and to show how much thought you as an author have put into aircraft acquisition, and I remember for 12MtM I truly agonised over my choice of fast jet capability for the Cambodians. I'm surprised that there are no subsidies are potentially on offer for Australia to upgrade their fast jet capability from the American government, since it's damn helpful for them to have a capable ally in SE Asia or at least that's what I'd be doing as Sir Phillip . A minor nitpick, but Broome has an e at the end. As always keep up the good work.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Dec 2, 2020 3:28:40 GMT
What you could have done for that post was to write it as a memo by Sir Phillip. As that would enable you to insert tables and to show how much thought you as an author have put into aircraft acquisition, and I remember for 12MtM I truly agonised over my choice of fast jet capability for the Cambodians. I'm surprised that there are no subsidies are potentially on offer for Australia to upgrade their fast jet capability from the American government, since it's damn helpful for them to have a capable ally in SE Asia or at least that's what I'd be doing as Sir Phillip . A minor nitpick, but Broome has an e at the end. As always keep up the good work. Not a bad idea, but I suck at making tables. Lol. Trust me, I tried. They all looked like crap. The US might be willing to provide some military assistance in the form of funding if Australia asks for it. And I had it down as Broome, but my damn auto correct must have changed it
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 2, 2020 5:26:41 GMT
What you could have done for that post was to write it as a memo by Sir Phillip. As that would enable you to insert tables and to show how much thought you as an author have put into aircraft acquisition, and I remember for 12MtM I truly agonised over my choice of fast jet capability for the Cambodians. I'm surprised that there are no subsidies are potentially on offer for Australia to upgrade their fast jet capability from the American government, since it's damn helpful for them to have a capable ally in SE Asia or at least that's what I'd be doing as Sir Phillip . A minor nitpick, but Broome has an e at the end. As always keep up the good work. Not a bad idea, but I suck at making tables. Lol. Trust me, I tried. They all looked like crap. The US might be willing to provide some military assistance in the form of funding if Australia asks for it. And I had it down as Broome, but my damn auto correct must have changed it You know I used to make my money writing reports, which included explaining difficult financial concepts in a way that a layman would understand. My instinct is that you are going to end up flipping a coin to choose between the Crusader & the Phantom, which seems fair and adds to the mystery for the reader. Let me know if you want help with formatting & structure.
|
|
|
Post by La Rouge Beret on Dec 4, 2020 0:42:12 GMT
I've been thinking about this over my morning coffee, but with the greater proliferation of carriers ITTL. Does another carrier vs carrier battle occur ITTL?
Also will the Dutch continue in the carrier game - I hope so as I like the cloggies.
|
|
ssgtc
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 496
Likes: 740
|
Post by ssgtc on Dec 4, 2020 2:09:09 GMT
I've been thinking about this over my morning coffee, but with the greater proliferation of carriers ITTL. Does another carrier vs carrier battle occur ITTL? Also will the Dutch continue in the carrier game - I hope so as I like the cloggies. it's a possibility that a carrier on carrier battle takes place, but I haven't made any decisions either way. As for the Dutch, they've still got the Doorman.
|
|