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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 18, 2020 4:47:32 GMT
That might make sense. John de la Pole and his potential descendants (or his brothers and their offspring) might have a lot of options for their brides had England remained Catholic. Plenty of time between the rise of the de la Poles and Luther doing his thing.
Although having the Low Countries become a source for brides for the de la Poles might mean England may end up acquiring influence there. They might even have a relationship with the Dutch in a similar manner to that of Britain's relationship with the Kingdom of Hannover.
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jul 19, 2020 5:59:25 GMT
That might make sense. John de la Pole and his potential descendants (or his brothers and their offspring) might have a lot of options for their brides had England remained Catholic. Plenty of time between the rise of the de la Poles and Luther doing his thing. Although having the Low Countries become a source for brides for the de la Poles might mean England may end up acquiring influence there. They might even have a relationship with the Dutch in a similar manner to that of Britain's relationship with the Kingdom of Hannover. John was King of a tiny impoverished kingdom on the fringes of Europe. He faced a challenger in the form of Perkin Warbeck. Warbeck enjoyed the support of James IV and the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I which put England at odd with The Netherlands and Scotland. Henry VII had tried in vain, with Spain and HRE, to prevent the incorporation of the Duchy of Brittany into France, but given his precarious hold on the Throne Henry decided it would be wise to declare peace with the French. He also looked to try and induce Maximilian I (HRE) in to abandoning Warbeck and signing a treaty (the Intercursus Magnus) and he settled with Scotland by marrying his daughter off James IV. I would imagine that John might pursue a similar course as foreign policy c. 15th century was about establishing England as a dominant player on the European stage. He would most certainly want to bring in revenue and The Netherlands was important trading partner. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 20, 2020 3:07:33 GMT
At this rate, John might also try to use Elizabeth of York as a valuable pawn in the attempted marriage alliance with any other kingdom that might be interested if Henry Tudor isn't available.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 20, 2020 6:50:09 GMT
That might make sense. John de la Pole and his potential descendants (or his brothers and their offspring) might have a lot of options for their brides had England remained Catholic. Plenty of time between the rise of the de la Poles and Luther doing his thing. Although having the Low Countries become a source for brides for the de la Poles might mean England may end up acquiring influence there. They might even have a relationship with the Dutch in a similar manner to that of Britain's relationship with the Kingdom of Hannover. John was King of a tiny impoverished kingdom on the fringes of Europe. He faced a challenger in the form of Perkin Warbeck. Warbeck enjoyed the support of James IV and the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I which put England at odd with The Netherlands and Scotland. Henry VII had tried in vain, with Spain and HRE, to prevent the incorporation of the Duchy of Brittany into France, but given his precarious hold on the Throne Henry decided it would be wise to declare peace with the French. He also looked to try and induce Maximilian I (HRE) in to abandoning Warbeck and signing a treaty (the Intercursus Magnus) and he settled with Scotland by marrying his daughter off James IV. I would imagine that John might pursue a similar course as foreign policy c. 15th century was about establishing England as a dominant player on the European stage. He would most certainly want to bring in revenue and The Netherlands was important trading partner.
I wouldn't say tiny, albeit England [plus Wales and Ireland] didn't have the population of France or the HRE. Mind you get the civil war over, which had caused a lot of suffering in those periods when it was in 'hot' mode, its also a lot more coherent and well governed than either of the others. Any realistic aims of 'conquering' France are out of the window but Edward IV and later Henery VIII did actively campaign in France so England isn't a lightweight by any means. A further round of fighting due to both claimants dying at Bosworth Field won't help but there is the basis for a fairly strong and stable state.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 20, 2020 6:58:04 GMT
That might make sense. John de la Pole and his potential descendants (or his brothers and their offspring) might have a lot of options for their brides had England remained Catholic. Plenty of time between the rise of the de la Poles and Luther doing his thing. Although having the Low Countries become a source for brides for the de la Poles might mean England may end up acquiring influence there. They might even have a relationship with the Dutch in a similar manner to that of Britain's relationship with the Kingdom of Hannover.
They definitely will for the moment. Some sort of rebellion against the dominance and corruption of the Catholic church is going to happen at some time and we're already had the Hussites. Also there are other drivers for political leaders to support such a 'reformation', such as the ability to take over church lands and the Treaty of Tordesillas.
In fact that is likely to be pretty much necessary for any sort of relationship with an independent Netherlands as that would require that state regaining independence from the Hapsburgs as its too wealthy and important to get out of their grip willingly. Checking the region came under Hapsburg control in 1482 so that's shortly before the POD and hence already in place.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 22, 2020 3:46:23 GMT
I could see John de la Pole's England and the Netherlands having a profitable relationship down the road, although I wonder if that might result in a future de la Pole offspring ruling the Netherlands or a future Anglo-Dutch union in the horizon. If France really went gung ho and tried to expel any English presence from France, they could have also seized the Channel Islands from them (though I wonder why the French forgot to take the Channel Islands IOTL when it's literally close to mainland Normandy). IOTL Elizabeth Tudor was offered the Dutch throne, but because of complications, she wasn't in a position to accept it though.
On the other hand, an Anglo-Dutch alliance might also be a good deterrent against France, though it might not help much against Scotland.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2020 11:09:26 GMT
I could see John de la Pole's England and the Netherlands having a profitable relationship down the road, although I wonder if that might result in a future de la Pole offspring ruling the Netherlands or a future Anglo-Dutch union in the horizon. If France really went gung ho and tried to expel any English presence from France, they could have also seized the Channel Islands from them (though I wonder why the French forgot to take the Channel Islands IOTL when it's literally close to mainland Normandy). IOTL Elizabeth Tudor was offered the Dutch throne, but because of complications, she wasn't in a position to accept it though. On the other hand, an Anglo-Dutch alliance might also be a good deterrent against France, though it might not help much against Scotland.
I see two problems with the latter: a) While Spain is still a powerful force its going to be the major threat to the Netherlands as well as a Protestant England/Britain. If the latter is still Catholic then it might end up allied with Spain against the Dutch and/or the French depending on the circumstances.
b) Because their enemy was primarily the Spanish/Hapsburg power they gained independence from until Louis XIV became a greater threat the Dutch didn't have hostile relations with France, especially since both of them were at odds with Spain more often than not. The Netherlands didn't want France as an additional enemy especially since they had a close land border with only the Spanish/Austrian Netherlands between them. Its been noted in some sources that a major reason for the Netherlands relative decline in power from the late 17thC was because as well as trying to maintain its position as a major maritime power it had to spend increasingly resources on a powerful army and fortifications against the growing threat from France.
Overall if the Dutch become Protestant in some form, which is probably likely if they end up successfully rebelling against the Hapsburgs - whether Spanish or Austrian then close relations with England is only likely if that also become Protestant. Preferably also the same sort if your talking about a union at some stage.
Interesting question as to why England managed to maintain the Channel Is before it became clearly superior in naval power to France. Possibly simply they had a fair amount of self government and were well fortified and hence not worth the effort to besiege??
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 25, 2020 16:55:01 GMT
I could see the Netherlands becoming a paranoid, mercantile, miniature Fortress Europe in its own right if it had to deal with its neighbors. Alternatively, you might also have the Netherlands fulfilling the role of OTL Prussia in its attempts to unify the German statelets, though that might be unlikely.
Anywho, I would have loved to see who ends up marrying Elizabeth of York if Henry Tudor dies at the same time as Richard III.
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jul 26, 2020 8:24:21 GMT
At this rate, John might also try to use Elizabeth of York as a valuable pawn in the attempted marriage alliance with any other kingdom that might be interested if Henry Tudor isn't available. I'm not too sure how much say he would have over Elizabeth of York's life and whether he would even want to promote the Yorkist. He would be far more interested in protecting his own family's interests. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 27, 2020 1:09:24 GMT
At this rate, John might also try to use Elizabeth of York as a valuable pawn in the attempted marriage alliance with any other kingdom that might be interested if Henry Tudor isn't available. I'm not too sure how much say he would have over Elizabeth of York's life and whether he would even want to promote the Yorkist. He would be far more interested in protecting his own family's interests. That might have been the case, though Elizabeth of York is technically considered kin to the de la Poles. John de la Pole might use her to secure a Dutch alliance or even any alliance with the HRE (German statelet or Italian statelet). |
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jul 29, 2020 7:19:02 GMT
I'm not too sure how much say he would have over Elizabeth of York's life and whether he would even want to promote the Yorkist. He would be far more interested in protecting his own family's interests. That might have been the case, though Elizabeth of York is technically considered kin to the de la Poles. John de la Pole might use her to secure a Dutch alliance or even any alliance with the HRE (German statelet or Italian statelet). It would depend on what Elizabeth could bring to the table. As daughter to Edward IV that might increase interest, but with no direct line to the Throne it would be difficult to see who in the Netherlands would be interested in arranging such a union. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Aug 7, 2020 3:57:42 GMT
Another thing too: had England remained Catholic in this scenario, would Richard de la Pole be open to the idea of an Italian bride? I'm not sure if an expanded Anglo-Italian relations might also be feasible, given the former's rivalry with France and the latter's fear of a French invasion.
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