mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jun 18, 2020 3:37:23 GMT
In OTL, Richard III had a larger army than Henry Tudor, but still managed to lose this battle with the untimely intervention of the Stanley family on Henry's side. The rest is history and the Tudor dynasty succeeds the Plantagenets as the ruling dynasty of England. What would have happened if both Richard III and Henry Tudor were killed on Bosworth Field? What would the succession be like, and would any minor noble try to usurp the crown, with the Percys, Stanleys, and Thomas Howard angling for the top job? One thing that would definitely come out of this possible double death would have been the Lancastrian line's permanent end (though it is worth noting that through Philipa of Lancaster's marriage with John I of Portugal, her notable descendants included the Prince Afonso who died in a horse riding accident in 1491, making Philippa Afonso's great-great-grandmother) My suggestion is the Neville Family or the de la Pole Family may seek to press their respective claims to the Throne. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 22, 2020 3:19:17 GMT
In OTL, Richard III had a larger army than Henry Tudor, but still managed to lose this battle with the untimely intervention of the Stanley family on Henry's side. The rest is history and the Tudor dynasty succeeds the Plantagenets as the ruling dynasty of England. What would have happened if both Richard III and Henry Tudor were killed on Bosworth Field? What would the succession be like, and would any minor noble try to usurp the crown, with the Percys, Stanleys, and Thomas Howard angling for the top job? One thing that would definitely come out of this possible double death would have been the Lancastrian line's permanent end (though it is worth noting that through Philipa of Lancaster's marriage with John I of Portugal, her notable descendants included the Prince Afonso who died in a horse riding accident in 1491, making Philippa Afonso's great-great-grandmother) My suggestion is the Neville Family or the de la Pole Family may seek to press their respective claims to the Throne. IOTL that is what Richard de la Pole did after Henry Tudor was installed as Henry VII. I'm not sure exactly who would have been a good candidate from House Neville that would have claimed the kingship of England. However, it would most likely be the Pole family, as the 17th Earl of Warwick was already attained (along with his father, the Duke of Clarence) by Richard III |
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jun 22, 2020 19:50:09 GMT
My suggestion is the Neville Family or the de la Pole Family may seek to press their respective claims to the Throne. IOTL that is what Richard de la Pole did after Henry Tudor was installed as Henry VII. I'm not sure exactly who would have been a good candidate from House Neville that would have claimed the kingship of England. However, it would most likely be the Pole family, as the 17th Earl of Warwick was already attained (along with his father, the Duke of Clarence) by Richard III Edward was executed by Henry VII in 1499, but if Henry Tudor dies in 1485 then he, as the last surviving male of the House of Plantagenet, would have a strong claim to the Throne and I would humbly suggest that the Throne would be his... Edward's older sister, Margaret, would be an influential person at Court and would act as the gateway to the corridors of power for the Poles. If Edward dies without heirs apparent or presumptive then the way would be laid open for the male heirs of Margaret and Sir Richard Pole. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 23, 2020 3:41:50 GMT
We might also see the succession play out in an exact manner to the one described in "Britain's Real Monarch" where the scenario like this happened, but with the PoD of Edward IV being declared illegitimate, leading to the succession in George, Duke of Clarence and then his children.
Richard de la Pole might also have a strong claim, due to his mother being Elizabeth, Duchess of Suffolk. Not sure how Salic Law or Primogeniture would affect Richard de la Pole's situation though. House of Hastings might still take the throne from the House of Pole.
If Edward does marry, my first guess may be to Anne of Brittany or some other English noblewoman (though a foreign match might be more likely, as to avoid the situation involving Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville).
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jun 24, 2020 21:07:31 GMT
We might also see the succession play out in an exact manner to the one described in "Britain's Real Monarch" where the scenario like this happened, but with the PoD of Edward IV being declared illegitimate, leading to the succession in George, Duke of Clarence and then his children. Richard de la Pole might also have a strong claim, due to his mother being Elizabeth, Duchess of Suffolk. Not sure how Salic Law or Primogeniture would affect Richard de la Pole's situation though. House of Hastings might still take the throne from the House of Pole. If Edward does marry, my first guess may be to Anne of Brittany or some other English noblewoman (though a foreign match might be more likely, as to avoid the situation involving Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville). Richard's eldest brother John, 1st Earl of Lincoln would be first in line and indeed I believe Richard III actually made him his heir presumptive. His other brothers would also have to be done away with if Richard, 'the White Rose', is to become King. Royal children especially girls were there to secure the line of succession or to be betrothed to whomever best served England's interests. Being King obviously put you in the driving seat as to who you married rather than people deciding for you. Of course there would be a gentle hand to perhaps guide Edward's choice. If there was a powerful English noble family that would be a good match - keep the people with power on side. Personally I don't think Anne of Brittany would be a good match. In OTL Charles VIII of France prevented her from marrying a foreigner because he feared that Brittany would fall in to the hands of a foreign power. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 26, 2020 4:57:20 GMT
Wouldn't it make more sense to have John de la Pole stake his claim on the English throne? His claim would be stronger than that of Richard's due to him being the oldest son of his father the Duke of Suffolk.
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jun 26, 2020 21:46:06 GMT
Wouldn't it make more sense to have John de la Pole stake his claim on the English throne? His claim would be stronger than that of Richard's due to him being the oldest son of his father the Duke of Suffolk. Yes. John is the eldest son so the Throne would go to him especially if Richard III has named him heir presumptive before he dies at Bosworth Field. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 27, 2020 1:46:05 GMT
In that case, John de la Pole as King of England might be unusual, but with a massive potential. I could also see different set of marriages for John's brothers though, but one scenario that I wanted to play out was Richard de la Pole marrying to a hypothetical daughter of Andreas Palaiologos (the nephew of the last Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI) and getting involved in the ambitions of the final Palaiologos brothers.
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jun 27, 2020 10:43:40 GMT
In that case, John de la Pole as King of England might be unusual, but with a massive potential. I could also see different set of marriages for John's brothers though, but one scenario that I wanted to play out was Richard de la Pole marrying to a hypothetical daughter of Andreas Palaiologos (the nephew of the last Byzantine Emperor Constantine XI) and getting involved in the ambitions of the final Palaiologos brothers. Interesting plot twist... I don't know if John would be so keen to involve himself with an impoverished individual who was begging for scraps from the tables of Europe's nobility in an effort to restore his lost fortunes. His brother Manuel was on the way to joining the Ottomans. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 27, 2020 19:19:02 GMT
That might have been true though. I am not sure if the other de la Pole brothers would be awarded estates confiscated from whoever fought against the House of de la Pole, though I would suspect that they might help themselves to some lands in Ireland. That might be a bit closer than the doomed adventures of Manuel and Andreas Palaiologos.
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jul 5, 2020 18:49:25 GMT
That might have been true though. I am not sure if the other de la Pole brothers would be awarded estates confiscated from whoever fought against the House of de la Pole, though I would suspect that they might help themselves to some lands in Ireland. That might be a bit closer than the doomed adventures of Manuel and Andreas Palaiologos. The Pole brothers would take land and titles as befitting their position for example His Royal Highness Prince William is known as The Duke of Cambridge, Earl of Strathearn, Baron Carrickfergus. Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Cambridge takes the female version of the titles. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 10, 2020 4:37:31 GMT
It would also be nice to see who John de la Pole marries in this case, though OTL his brothers had terrible luck with their marriages and lack of offspring, with Richard de la Pole being the actual last Yorkist to openly seek the throne.
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jul 11, 2020 23:14:33 GMT
It would also be nice to see who John de la Pole marries in this case, though OTL his brothers had terrible luck with their marriages and lack of offspring, with Richard de la Pole being the actual last Yorkist to openly seek the throne. In OTL Henry VII looked to strengthen his claim to the Throne through foreign recognition so he married his eldest son Arthur to Catherine of Aragon. King John II was the descendant of the Royal House of Plantagenet so his claim stood on its own merits rather than gaining the throne through conquest as Henry did. Who he would marry would depend on what benefits such a union would bring to England. |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 14, 2020 3:33:39 GMT
During the Plantagenet years, they would often shop for potential brides within France itself. I would think that John de la Pole might be eager for a bride from the Low Countries or even Scandinavia. OTL Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville had scuppered any chance of England having closer relations with France. So I take it that he might opt for a bride from outside France.
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mach2
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Post by mach2 on Jul 16, 2020 21:55:01 GMT
During the Plantagenet years, they would often shop for potential brides within France itself. I would think that John de la Pole might be eager for a bride from the Low Countries or even Scandinavia. OTL Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville had scuppered any chance of England having closer relations with France. So I take it that he might opt for a bride from outside France. If John follows Henry's path then he would probably look to the Low Countries in an effort to boost trade. |
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