Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 22, 2020 20:57:38 GMT
'2000 Western US To 1960'. Then-President Clinton and his staff come along for the ride to represent the uptimers and their interests. And, once again, the uptimer United States in this scenario encompasses what's in the cerulean blue half of the map below. 
What date in both 'countries'? If 1st Jan then has Kennedy even won the Democratic nomination yet? Probably still likely to occur but both Kennedy and Nixon would have problems with the information on events 'to come'. with Watergate for Nixon and assorted drugs and woman scandles for Kennedy, plus possibly his support in the south might be weakened by the later Democrat support of civil rights.
Was Al Gore brought along as well? If so he's likely to win an election in the western US but if the two 'nations' are combined in a 1960/2000 election things are going to be very chaotic. As well as civil rights issues and the drastically different social values and economic bases of the two there are different voting ages.
Steve
Thank you for the reply. As is usually the case, the ISOT would take place on January 1st of both years, which leaves ample time for an alternate 1960 race to take shape should the two Americas agree to hold a shared election. Being a top member of Bill Clinton’s staff, Al Gore would also come along for the ride. Though whether he’d stand a chance as he campaigns on behalf of a divided Democratic Party—triply so do to the invariable infighting between the 2000 Democrats and 1960 Dixiecrats—I don’t know. For that reason, I’d surmise that the Republicans would have a considerable advantage in this cycle, though its uptimer and downtimer elements would still have their differences to work out in the meantime. How would uptimer GOP candidates like George W. Bush be received by 1960 America, I wonder? Considering how well he did with Hispanic/Latino voters in the OTL 2000 election, he could help the GOP’s outreach in then-oppressed minority communities outside of the uptimer states. In fact, maybe if he and everyone else of importance play their cards right while the Democrats fight and flounder over the coming months (maybe even years), the Republicans could become the party of civil rights ITTL. Regarding disparate voting ages, a glance at Wiki (prompted by a comment I once saw in one of my AH.com threads) shows states setting their own minimum voting ages separate from the federal standard, at least prior to the 26th Amendment being ratified. Plus, some politicians (like Eleanor Roosevelt and Ted Kennedy) seem to have pushed for a lowered voting age long before most Americans had even heard the word ‘Vietnam’, meaning that such a proposal wouldn’t be too alien to Washington’s politically minded circles. So maybe eighteen-year-old uptimers could vote ITTL’s 1960 election in theory, though I fear that their ability to do so could be challenged by downtimer authorities. Depending on how SCOTUS rules on that among other disputes, the Western United States (or “WUSA”) might contemplate disobedience with the federal government, or even outright secession. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 23, 2020 9:47:56 GMT
What date in both 'countries'? If 1st Jan then has Kennedy even won the Democratic nomination yet? Probably still likely to occur but both Kennedy and Nixon would have problems with the information on events 'to come'. with Watergate for Nixon and assorted drugs and woman scandles for Kennedy, plus possibly his support in the south might be weakened by the later Democrat support of civil rights.
Was Al Gore brought along as well? If so he's likely to win an election in the western US but if the two 'nations' are combined in a 1960/2000 election things are going to be very chaotic. As well as civil rights issues and the drastically different social values and economic bases of the two there are different voting ages.
Steve
Thank you for the reply. As is usually the case, the ISOT would take place on January 1st of both years, which leaves ample time for an alternate 1960 race to take shape should the two Americas agree to hold a shared election. Being a top member of Bill Clinton’s staff, Al Gore would also come along for the ride. Though whether he’d stand a chance as he campaigns on behalf of a divided Democratic Party—triply so do to the invariable infighting between the 2000 Democrats and 1960 Dixiecrats—I don’t know. For that reason, I’d surmise that the Republicans would have a considerable advantage in this cycle, though its uptimer and downtimer elements would still have their differences to work out in the meantime. How would uptimer GOP candidates like George W. Bush be received by 1960 America, I wonder? Considering how well he did with Hispanic/Latino voters in the OTL 2000 election, he could help the GOP’s outreach in then-oppressed minority communities outside of the uptimer states. In fact, maybe if he and everyone else of importance play their cards right while the Democrats fight and flounder over the coming months (maybe even years), the Republicans could become the party of civil rights ITTL. Regarding disparate voting ages, a glance at Wiki (prompted by a comment I once saw in one of my AH.com threads) shows states setting their own minimum voting ages separate from the federal standard, at least prior to the 26th Amendment being ratified. Plus, some politicians (like Eleanor Roosevelt and Ted Kennedy) seem to have pushed for a lowered voting age long before most Americans had even heard the word ‘Vietnam’, meaning that such a proposal wouldn’t be too alien to Washington’s politically minded circles. So maybe eighteen-year-old uptimers could vote ITTL’s 1960 election in theory, though I fear that their ability to do so could be challenged by downtimer authorities. Depending on how SCOTUS rules on that among other disputes, the Western United States (or “WUSA”) might contemplate disobedience with the federal government, or even outright secession.
Good point on that last bit but it does raise one awkward question. Virtually all the government system is in Washington DC and hence EUSA. There might be some Congress representatives from 2000 who happen to be at home, especially since its the new year but will Washington recognise them as the legitimate representatives of their states/districts or surviving ones from 1960? Could see a hell of a legal storm about this sort of thing with a lot of resentment in the west if established interests insist they have to be represented by someone elected 40 years ago as far as their concerned. Also the bulk of the Supreme Court are very likely from 1960 but would any 2000 ones who happened to be brought along be recognised?
Yes the Democrats may be more impacted by the division but the behaviour of Nixon and his two OTL VPs - one forced to resign and the other pardoning Nixon, is likely to affect them as well so both sides are likely to be somewhat chaotic. Not to mention the further chaos that's going to happen in international affairs and also with foreknowledge of problems about global warming and the like - which EUSA is going to be unhappy with as trying to change that would affect a lot of their economic base. Albeit that as well as outright denial many will argue its not a great problem yet so we can ignore it for a while. However I can see some fairly drastic progress in future years in alternative energy sources which could have some very benefitial effects for the US and the world. [Not just environmental but also political as the influence of the assorted ME oil states will be much reduced.]
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 23, 2020 17:53:41 GMT
Thank you for the reply. As is usually the case, the ISOT would take place on January 1st of both years, which leaves ample time for an alternate 1960 race to take shape should the two Americas agree to hold a shared election. Being a top member of Bill Clinton’s staff, Al Gore would also come along for the ride. Though whether he’d stand a chance as he campaigns on behalf of a divided Democratic Party—triply so do to the invariable infighting between the 2000 Democrats and 1960 Dixiecrats—I don’t know. For that reason, I’d surmise that the Republicans would have a considerable advantage in this cycle, though its uptimer and downtimer elements would still have their differences to work out in the meantime. How would uptimer GOP candidates like George W. Bush be received by 1960 America, I wonder? Considering how well he did with Hispanic/Latino voters in the OTL 2000 election, he could help the GOP’s outreach in then-oppressed minority communities outside of the uptimer states. In fact, maybe if he and everyone else of importance play their cards right while the Democrats fight and flounder over the coming months (maybe even years), the Republicans could become the party of civil rights ITTL. Regarding disparate voting ages, a glance at Wiki (prompted by a comment I once saw in one of my AH.com threads) shows states setting their own minimum voting ages separate from the federal standard, at least prior to the 26th Amendment being ratified. Plus, some politicians (like Eleanor Roosevelt and Ted Kennedy) seem to have pushed for a lowered voting age long before most Americans had even heard the word ‘Vietnam’, meaning that such a proposal wouldn’t be too alien to Washington’s politically minded circles. So maybe eighteen-year-old uptimers could vote ITTL’s 1960 election in theory, though I fear that their ability to do so could be challenged by downtimer authorities. Depending on how SCOTUS rules on that among other disputes, the Western United States (or “WUSA”) might contemplate disobedience with the federal government, or even outright secession.
Good point on that last bit but it does raise one awkward question. Virtually all the government system is in Washington DC and hence EUSA. There might be some Congress representatives from 2000 who happen to be at home, especially since its the new year but will Washington recognise them as the legitimate representatives of their states/districts or surviving ones from 1960? Could see a hell of a legal storm about this sort of thing with a lot of resentment in the west if established interests insist they have to be represented by someone elected 40 years ago as far as their concerned. Also the bulk of the Supreme Court are very likely from 1960 but would any 2000 ones who happened to be brought along be recognised?
Yes the Democrats may be more impacted by the division but the behaviour of Nixon and his two OTL VPs - one forced to resign and the other pardoning Nixon, is likely to affect them as well so both sides are likely to be somewhat chaotic. Not to mention the further chaos that's going to happen in international affairs and also with foreknowledge of problems about global warming and the like - which EUSA is going to be unhappy with as trying to change that would affect a lot of their economic base. Albeit that as well as outright denial many will argue its not a great problem yet so we can ignore it for a while. However I can see some fairly drastic progress in future years in alternative energy sources which could have some very benefitial effects for the US and the world. [Not just environmental but also political as the influence of the assorted ME oil states will be much reduced.]
Steve
Yeah, you raised some more stuff that needs addressing. I'm guessing that if it's wise, EUSA will be willing to compromise on who represents which states in their Congress should the two Americas agree to stay together (which is itself in doubt, as we both agree). Though it'll likely become a key Supreme Court case that the Justices are smart enough to understand the practical implications of, I think that being a Senator or Representative of constituents who didn't elect you and probably want little or nothing to do with you, depending on your beliefs and track record even beyond 1960, rather misses the point. If I were Texan, I'd sure be against any racist(s) in Congress whose job is to represent my state, doubly so since the Southern states like Texas are becoming increasingly dominated by the opposite party by 2000, which would probably perturb said racists and make them vote in a certain direction out of spite. Of course, they'd probably howl about how "those damned Republicans" have taken over their then-poor, backwards, Segregationist "precious South" either way, but I'd prefer to minimize the damage when I can't nip it in the bud entirely.
Regarding SCOTUS itself, my guess is that the downtimers would also object to having any uptimer members who came along for the ride replacing incumbent members (and who replaces who would become a debate in of itself). As said before, though, I deduce that the likes of Earl Warren and his colleagues would be pragmatic and politically astute enough to recognize that WUSA will probably go its own way even if they rule to the contrary on certain court cases. Which might instigate lots of grumbling in Washington, but complaining and myopic attempts at coercion won't get EUSA very far in the grand scheme of things--especially when WUSA has sweet, shiny tech and other goodies to trade in exchange for something substantial on their part. Plus, they'd risk playing into the Soviet bloc's hands by fighting with their uptimer counterparts when they should be standing united against the Red menace, regardless of whether they reunite or actually split into two different Americas over irreconcilable differences. The prospect of the USSR collapsing in a few decades' time is sure to have ripple effects in of itself (as would China's adoption of capitalistic reforms after Chairman Mao croaks), though I'm unsure how the Kremlin or Beijing will respond other than not taking that news well.
General divisions aside, fractures along party lines will no doubt plague both the Democrats and Republicans for a while. Even though news of the Watergate Scandal and his other deficiencies will inevitably spread, it should be kept in mind that Tricky Dick hasn't done those things yet (even though those revelations will still dent his reputation, no matter how much he swears up and down that he's "not a crook" like he did IOTL). Still, further questions of what else he must be up to behind closed doors will be asked, which may pressure him to resign and retire early for a change anyway (if he has the wherewithal to do so, that is).
On global climate change and renewable energy to compensate for it, I wonder what downtimers might think of nuclear power? Of course, it might connote accidents like Chernobyl early, as well as be mistaken for having to do with nuclear proliferation by less educated members of the populace. But, at least according to my understanding, it has net-zero emissions and is arguably safer than even supposedly "clean" options like wind and solar, the latter of which employs panels made of petroleum first harvested via drilling rigs (which also damages the environment). Plus, we already tolerate death tolls and environmental catastrophes instigated by already-prevalent sources, i.e. ocean-ruining oil spills or miners perishing in mining accidents, so...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 24, 2020 11:32:50 GMT
Good point on that last bit but it does raise one awkward question. Virtually all the government system is in Washington DC and hence EUSA. There might be some Congress representatives from 2000 who happen to be at home, especially since its the new year but will Washington recognise them as the legitimate representatives of their states/districts or surviving ones from 1960? Could see a hell of a legal storm about this sort of thing with a lot of resentment in the west if established interests insist they have to be represented by someone elected 40 years ago as far as their concerned. Also the bulk of the Supreme Court are very likely from 1960 but would any 2000 ones who happened to be brought along be recognised?
Yes the Democrats may be more impacted by the division but the behaviour of Nixon and his two OTL VPs - one forced to resign and the other pardoning Nixon, is likely to affect them as well so both sides are likely to be somewhat chaotic. Not to mention the further chaos that's going to happen in international affairs and also with foreknowledge of problems about global warming and the like - which EUSA is going to be unhappy with as trying to change that would affect a lot of their economic base. Albeit that as well as outright denial many will argue its not a great problem yet so we can ignore it for a while. However I can see some fairly drastic progress in future years in alternative energy sources which could have some very benefitial effects for the US and the world. [Not just environmental but also political as the influence of the assorted ME oil states will be much reduced.]
Steve
Yeah, you raised some more stuff that needs addressing. I'm guessing that if it's wise, EUSA will be willing to compromise on who represents which states in their Congress should the two Americas agree to stay together (which is itself in doubt, as we both agree). Though it'll likely become a key Supreme Court case that the Justices are smart enough to understand the practical implications of, I think that being a Senator or Representative of constituents who didn't elect you and probably want little or nothing to do with you, depending on your beliefs and track record even beyond 1960, rather misses the point. If I were Texan, I'd sure be against any racist(s) in Congress whose job is to represent my state, doubly so since the Southern states like Texas are becoming increasingly dominated by the opposite party by 2000, which would probably perturb said racists and make them vote in a certain direction out of spite. Of course, they'd probably howl about how "those damned Republicans" have taken over their then-poor, backwards, Segregationist "precious South" either way, but I'd prefer to minimize the damage when I can't nip it in the bud entirely.
Regarding SCOTUS itself, my guess is that the downtimers would also object to having any uptimer members who came along for the ride replacing incumbent members (and who replaces who would become a debate in of itself). As said before, though, I deduce that the likes of Earl Warren and his colleagues would be pragmatic and politically astute enough to recognize that WUSA will probably go its own way even if they rule to the contrary on certain court cases. Which might instigate lots of grumbling in Washington, but complaining and myopic attempts at coercion won't get EUSA very far in the grand scheme of things--especially when WUSA has sweet, shiny tech and other goodies to trade in exchange for something substantial on their part. Plus, they'd risk playing into the Soviet bloc's hands by fighting with their uptimer counterparts when they should be standing united against the Red menace, regardless of whether they reunite or actually split into two different Americas over irreconcilable differences. The prospect of the USSR collapsing in a few decades' time is sure to have ripple effects in of itself (as would China's adoption of capitalistic reforms after Chairman Mao croaks), though I'm unsure how the Kremlin or Beijing will respond other than not taking that news well.
General divisions aside, fractures along party lines will no doubt plague both the Democrats and Republicans for a while. Even though news of the Watergate Scandal and his other deficiencies will inevitably spread, it should be kept in mind that Tricky Dick hasn't done those things yet (even though those revelations will still dent his reputation, no matter how much he swears up and down that he's "not a crook" like he did IOTL). Still, further questions of what else he must be up to behind closed doors will be asked, which may pressure him to resign and retire early for a change anyway (if he has the wherewithal to do so, that is).
On global climate change and renewable energy to compensate for it, I wonder what downtimers might think of nuclear power? Of course, it might connote accidents like Chernobyl early, as well as be mistaken for having to do with nuclear proliferation by less educated members of the populace. But, at least according to my understanding, it has net-zero emissions and is arguably safer than even supposedly "clean" options like wind and solar, the latter of which employs panels made of petroleum first harvested via drilling rigs (which also damages the environment). Plus, we already tolerate death tolls and environmental catastrophes instigated by already-prevalent sources, i.e. ocean-ruining oil spills or miners perishing in mining accidents, so...
Yes I think and hope that the two US's will find ways to compromise on their differing values, even if it ultimately leads to an hopefully peaceful division. One other factor of course will be displaced people, i.e. people from 1960 WUSA who were elsewhere on the 1st Jan and hence have lost their homes. I assume that most will end up going to EUSA as it would be a lot more familiar to them socially and technologically. The other issue is that there will be a few older people in WUSA who have younger versions somewhere in the 1960 world which could cause some interesting legal and moral issues.
I'm not sure what the impact will be on the USSR. News of his fall might cause an earlier loss of power for Khrushchev or given the stagnation and decline that followed under later rulers might presuade him to do somethings differently and stay in power longer. Or you could have hard line groups seeking to take power and be more militant to prevent the fall of the USSR. At the worst, with the US in some degree of chaos some idiots could gain enough influence to launch an attack on NATO in Europe. Since IIRC NATO was still using a trip-wire defence with very rapidly calling in of nukes that could be very hairy!
With China Mao has launched the disastrous Great Leap Forward and already been partially sidelined by moderates who are trying to sort out the resultant mess. I suspect this could get very messy, possibly even with civil war but whether moderates would completely remove Mao before he bloodily purged them I don't know.
Uptimers, with knowledge of Three Mile Island and Chernobyl and the concerns about storing waste for many, many years could be rather wary of nuclear power but down-times might be a lot more confident in thinking they can avoid the OTL problems. I suspect that solar power will be popular in the WUSA especially with so much hot dry suitable areas in their country. The use of petroleum in small quantities in the manufacture of solar cells is probably trivial as I expect oil and gas will still be important for a long while. If nothing else even in 2020 there seems no alternative for air travel and in 1960 CO2 levels are significantly lower than 2000 let alone 2020. Plus with some very cold weather still to come in much of the world in the early 1960's - possibly in part because of continued sulphur and nitrate pollutants from coal use lowering temperatures before assorted clean air acts cleared it up there's going to be a lot of doubt in the 1960 world about the idea at all outside of the scientific community.
Safety standards and acceptance of deaths in industry were a lot lower in 1960 so that will be another issue, as well as a lot of medical and other rules. The up timers can give a hell of a lot of information about tobacco for instance and also things like thalidomide not being safe in pregnancy for instance.
Steve
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 25, 2020 13:43:46 GMT
‘1960 Federal Politicians Govern 2010 America’. Considering the downtimers’ disparate opinions, lack of modern knowledge and the fact that the uptimers haven’t voted any of them into office, I can’t imagine that their newfound authority would go down well with the general population—which I can’t blame the American people for. In fact, I can see various states not only clashing with the officials meant to represent them (i.e. various arch-Republican southern states resenting their racist Dixiecrat Senators and Representatives), but also threatening disobedience or even secession if Washington oversteps its bounds in their eyes. Which, again, I’d actually be sympathetic towards myself.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 26, 2020 17:40:42 GMT
'2012 Southwestern US To 1982'.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 4:04:31 GMT
'2012 Southwestern US To 1982'. You mean these parts of the United States.  |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 27, 2020 11:27:07 GMT
'2012 Southwestern US To 1982'. You mean these parts of the United States. Pretty much, though what I was thinking actually excluded 2020 California, Oklahoma and Texas from the picture. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 14:58:19 GMT
You mean these parts of the United States. Pretty much, though what I was thinking actually excluded 2020 California, Oklahoma and Texas from the picture. Is there a reason for then not being allowed to this ISOT party. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 27, 2020 16:55:30 GMT
Pretty much, though what I was thinking actually excluded 2020 California, Oklahoma and Texas from the picture. Is there a reason for then not being allowed to this ISOT party. The thing is that I don't think they really qualify as southwestern, desert-y states in the same way that Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico and Utah seem to.
California's off doing in own thing on the West Coast by the Pacific, while Texas and Oklahoma are more Southern states than anything else.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 28, 2020 21:02:55 GMT
'Humans Become Immune To All Diseases'. Though other living organisms that are ordinarily still vulnerable to them stay that way, regardless of how now-epidemic impervious their human masters now are.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 30, 2020 0:00:47 GMT
'Silicon Valley To World W/Out Personal Computers, Smart Devices Or World Wide Web'. Boy, would that be a far different TL to live in than ours.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 30, 2020 4:19:33 GMT
'Silicon Valley To World W/Out Personal Computers, Smart Devices Or World Wide Web'. Boy, would that be a far different TL to live in than ours. But the people living and working there are brought along, ore only empty places W/Out Personal Computers, Smart Devices Or the World Wide Web. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 30, 2020 4:31:00 GMT
'Silicon Valley To World W/Out Personal Computers, Smart Devices Or World Wide Web'. Boy, would that be a far different TL to live in than ours. But the people living and working there are brought along, ore only empty places W/Out Personal Computers, Smart Devices Or the World Wide Web. Everything in Silicon Valley is ISOTed along to this Web-free world. Which, by default, includes the people and their devices in addition to the infrastructure and terrain of the area. How this alternate TL they’ve been sent to would look other than radio and TV broadcasting being the dominant means of global communication (though internet-free mobile phones could potentially still exist), I’m unsure about. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 31, 2020 16:59:04 GMT
‘2042 Western US To 1942’.
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