lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 31, 2020 17:40:43 GMT
‘2042 Western US To 1942’. High tech versus low tech. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 31, 2020 19:54:09 GMT
‘2042 Western US To 1942’. High tech versus low tech. That’d be my guess, which is likely a good one since we’ll likely have more advanced science and technology by then than what we have now in 2020. I do, of course, assume that ‘WUSA’ in this case would demand autonomy and field the military and economic assets to gain it unless Washington is too stupid to realize how outmatched it is. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 1, 2020 11:21:57 GMT
High tech versus low tech. That’d be my guess, which is likely a good one since we’ll likely have more advanced science and technology by then than what we have now in 2020. I do, of course, assume that ‘WUSA’ in this case would demand autonomy and field the military and economic assets to gain it unless Washington is too stupid to realize how outmatched it is.
That could be an issue given that the US, or at least the 1942 version is in the midst of a very large war and the sudden appearance of this WUSA not only loses it a lot of territory, population and resources and also any real contact with the Pacific/Far East theatre of the war. This would be moderated somewhat given that the WUSA should be able to swat both imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, and possibly also Soviet Russia fairly easily. Barring any drastic changes by 2042 they should be willing to do so but what they might want after that would depend on how their developed.
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 2, 2020 0:15:45 GMT
'2020 US And China To 1960'.
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 3, 2020 18:06:17 GMT
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 4, 2020 23:11:07 GMT
'2012 US To 1942'.
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 5, 2020 23:22:11 GMT
‘Capitalist, Liberal-Democratic USSR Starting On January 1st, 1960’.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 6, 2020 11:14:42 GMT
‘Capitalist, Liberal-Democratic USSR Starting On January 1st, 1960’.
That would be an interesting shock to the 1960 world although probably making it a lot safer. Not sure what would happen to the E European communist states and the Soviet forces bases there, which I presume would be unchanged, along with Soviet forces elsewhere in the world but they probably wouldn't last long in isolation. You might get a more aggressive Us with an invasion of Cuba at some point.
China would be the primary communist power and while it doesn't have the same military or economic power as the USSR at this time its likely to take up a lot of the slack in terms of supporting assorted independent movements and communist aligned regimes around the world, which considering we're talking of Mao rather than Khrushchev probably means their likely to become more radical. It might however isolate and will weaken the communists in N Vietnam both because China can't provide the same resources as the Soviets and because of the bad history between China and Vietnam.
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 6, 2020 15:54:12 GMT
‘Capitalist, Liberal-Democratic USSR Starting On January 1st, 1960’.
That would be an interesting shock to the 1960 world although probably making it a lot safer. Not sure what would happen to the E European communist states and the Soviet forces bases there, which I presume would be unchanged, along with Soviet forces elsewhere in the world but they probably wouldn't last long in isolation. You might get a more aggressive Us with an invasion of Cuba at some point.
China would be the primary communist power and while it doesn't have the same military or economic power as the USSR at this time its likely to take up a lot of the slack in terms of supporting assorted independent movements and communist aligned regimes around the world, which considering we're talking of Mao rather than Khrushchev probably means their likely to become more radical. It might however isolate and will weaken the communists in N Vietnam both because China can't provide the same resources as the Soviets and because of the bad history between China and Vietnam.
Mm’kay. On the Soviet home front, I wonder how their economy will now look, i.e. how much they leave to market forces and how much the government regulates and invests in certain sectors? Because unless ASB poured some strong magic into making Soviet Russia do a one-eighty, I’ve a difficult time imagining they’d ditch central planning entirely (which, to an extent, even Western market economies today have some measure of). To that end, perhaps it’d employ something more similar to the East Asian model of capitalism, if I were to guess. In terms of its newfound foreign policy, this new Soviet Russia would become much more friendly with the United States at least in terms of compatibility and geopolitical objectives, though whether America can get over its surprise and understandable wariness to strengthen relations (i.e. opening up trade), I don’t have much of a projection for. Both would probably work on countering communism in their own way, with the Soviets now doing more of that within their own backyard (leaving the US less overstretched). Of course, given Soviet Russia’s southern neighbor and the man who leads it, China becoming the new face the workers’ revolution will pose its own problems as you’ve already pointed out—which, I think, leaves ample room for it to remain authoritarian and communist into the next century, but with few to none of the market-friendly reforms implemented under Deng Xiaoping like IOTL. And, knowing how Mao is likely to double down on his purges and revolutionary fervor, perhaps Xiaoping and his colleagues will be next on the chopping block  . |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 7, 2020 16:00:11 GMT
That would be an interesting shock to the 1960 world although probably making it a lot safer. Not sure what would happen to the E European communist states and the Soviet forces bases there, which I presume would be unchanged, along with Soviet forces elsewhere in the world but they probably wouldn't last long in isolation. You might get a more aggressive Us with an invasion of Cuba at some point.
China would be the primary communist power and while it doesn't have the same military or economic power as the USSR at this time its likely to take up a lot of the slack in terms of supporting assorted independent movements and communist aligned regimes around the world, which considering we're talking of Mao rather than Khrushchev probably means their likely to become more radical. It might however isolate and will weaken the communists in N Vietnam both because China can't provide the same resources as the Soviets and because of the bad history between China and Vietnam.
Mm’kay. On the Soviet home front, I wonder how their economy will now look, i.e. how much they leave to market forces and how much the government regulates and invests in certain sectors? Because unless ASB poured some strong magic into making Soviet Russia do a one-eighty, I’ve a difficult time imagining they’d ditch central planning entirely (which, to an extent, even Western market economies today have some measure of). To that end, perhaps it’d employ something more similar to the East Asian model of capitalism, if I were to guess. In terms of its newfound foreign policy, this new Soviet Russia would become much more friendly with the United States at least in terms of compatibility and geopolitical objectives, though whether America can get over its surprise and understandable wariness to strengthen relations (i.e. opening up trade), I don’t have much of a projection for. Both would probably work on countering communism in their own way, with the Soviets now doing more of that within their own backyard (leaving the US less overstretched). Of course, given Soviet Russia’s southern neighbor and the man who leads it, China becoming the new face the workers’ revolution will pose its own problems as you’ve already pointed out—which, I think, leaves ample room for it to remain authoritarian and communist into the next century, but with few to none of the market-friendly reforms implemented under Deng Xiaoping like IOTL. And, knowing how Mao is likely to double down on his purges and revolutionary fervor, perhaps Xiaoping and his colleagues will be next on the chopping block .
Ah slightly misread this. Thinking you meant the ASB brought is s liberal USSR from somewhere else rather than making OTL one suddenly decide on a liberal capitalist path. The latter is a lot more complex because nothing really is in place to support such a change. A lot of ordinary people being told of the change are likely to suspect some kind of trick, like Mao did in his 100 days to lure out 'anti-soviet elements'. Also all the massive bureaucracy has to totally change its entire pattern of behaviour from dictating everything about what people can do to trying to assist them taking their own decisions. All the corruption inherent in the system and those who benefit from it are going to be threatened. Also will the new USSR allow both democratic elections, getting new parties to challenge the communists is going to be tricky and also failing state owned businesses to either fail or be sold off?
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 16, 2020 16:27:52 GMT
Mm’kay. On the Soviet home front, I wonder how their economy will now look, i.e. how much they leave to market forces and how much the government regulates and invests in certain sectors? Because unless ASB poured some strong magic into making Soviet Russia do a one-eighty, I’ve a difficult time imagining they’d ditch central planning entirely (which, to an extent, even Western market economies today have some measure of). To that end, perhaps it’d employ something more similar to the East Asian model of capitalism, if I were to guess. In terms of its newfound foreign policy, this new Soviet Russia would become much more friendly with the United States at least in terms of compatibility and geopolitical objectives, though whether America can get over its surprise and understandable wariness to strengthen relations (i.e. opening up trade), I don’t have much of a projection for. Both would probably work on countering communism in their own way, with the Soviets now doing more of that within their own backyard (leaving the US less overstretched). Of course, given Soviet Russia’s southern neighbor and the man who leads it, China becoming the new face the workers’ revolution will pose its own problems as you’ve already pointed out—which, I think, leaves ample room for it to remain authoritarian and communist into the next century, but with few to none of the market-friendly reforms implemented under Deng Xiaoping like IOTL. And, knowing how Mao is likely to double down on his purges and revolutionary fervor, perhaps Xiaoping and his colleagues will be next on the chopping block .
Ah slightly misread this. Thinking you meant the ASB brought is s liberal USSR from somewhere else rather than making OTL one suddenly decide on a liberal capitalist path. The latter is a lot more complex because nothing really is in place to support such a change. A lot of ordinary people being told of the change are likely to suspect some kind of trick, like Mao did in his 100 days to lure out 'anti-soviet elements'. Also all the massive bureaucracy has to totally change its entire pattern of behaviour from dictating everything about what people can do to trying to assist them taking their own decisions. All the corruption inherent in the system and those who benefit from it are going to be threatened. Also will the new USSR allow both democratic elections, getting new parties to challenge the communists is going to be tricky and also failing state owned businesses to either fail or be sold off?
Good points. I suppose that along with the Kremlin becoming a capitalist, liberal-democratic government (and not just the current administration), the Soviet people are also magically convinced that their country has well and truly reformed and are excited to cast their ballots accordingly. As for the electoral process and party system to follow, I'm guessing that the incumbent Communist Party would dominate for a while, though maybe ASB could shift it from a 'world revolution through dictatorship of the proletariat' platform to basically a Russian version of the New Deal Coalition, which is way to the economic right of where the USSR was before 1960 ITTL. In the meantime, however, I suppose that lots of privatization of state-owned businesses would take place, though this will result in short-term pains at the expense of what I'm hoping are long-term gains. For some more non-frivolous ASB ideas, here are a few more cross-time US presidential elections that I've come up with. In all cases, the uptimer western half of the country gets sent back to the appropriate downtimer period for these races to take place. -'1948 Harry Truman Vs. 1988 George H.W. Bush' -'1956 Dwight Eisenhower Vs. 1996 Bill Clinton' -'1960 John F. Kennedy Vs. 2000 George W. Bush' On that last election cycle in particular, I'm wondering if Dubya could actually win that one? As Texan Governor, he's not yet saddled by his OTL legacy of a disastrous Iraq War, bungling Hurricane Katrina, or the 2008 recession that shook the country on his watch. Plus, his inordinately good job in getting Hispanic/Latino voters might help him appeal to downtimer minority communities (though his chances could be hurt by revelations of his DUI arrest). Kennedy, meanwhile, will have a slew of sexual misconduct scandals to address, though his ability to negotiate America's way out of the Cuban Missile Crisis IOTL could boost his reputation as well. |
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 17, 2020 21:54:34 GMT
‘Vladimir Putin SI To Joseph Stalin On January 1st, 1941’. Hopefully, this gives Putin enough time to brace the USSR for Operation Barbarossa. Though his rush to militarize the Red Army, move more factories to the Urals, and pump out lots of T-34s and KV-1s ahead of time will no doubt raise eyebrows amongst German intelligence, even if his inner circle and the Communist Party probably know to keep their mouths shut if they know what’s good for them.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 18, 2020 12:53:08 GMT
‘Vladimir Putin SI To Joseph Stalin On January 1st, 1941’. Hopefully, this gives Putin enough time to brace the USSR for Operation Barbarossa. Though his rush to militarize the Red Army, move more factories to the Urals, and pump out lots of T-34s and KV-1s ahead of time will no doubt raise eyebrows amongst German intelligence, even if his inner circle and the Communist Party probably know to keep their mouths shut if they know what’s good for them.
That would be interesting and potentially frightening. If he plays it intelligently he could probably lose a lot less territory and be in Berlin by 42/43 which would make for a radically different world. Especially since in such a circumstance I can't see Hitler being willing to declare war on the US so your likely to see the Soviets occupy all of continental Europe. Not to mention what happens when the USSR completes its nuclear programme, which is likely to be earlier than OTL.
Of course Putin is a Russian nationalist and more of a fascist than a communist so he might have some complications but the two groups are close enough together in many ways so it shouldn't be a great problem. However he also knows he's in a older body that died in 1953 OTL and while a better lifestyle might expand that he will need to start thinking about a successor. Definitely won't be Khrushchev as he's Ukrainian but I wonder if he might try purging other people and how others in the Politburo might respond. Doubt he would be couped, especially with the personality coup he would expand on and his 'success' in the war against Hitler.
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Post by Zyobot on Feb 18, 2020 15:23:28 GMT
‘Vladimir Putin SI To Joseph Stalin On January 1st, 1941’. Hopefully, this gives Putin enough time to brace the USSR for Operation Barbarossa. Though his rush to militarize the Red Army, move more factories to the Urals, and pump out lots of T-34s and KV-1s ahead of time will no doubt raise eyebrows amongst German intelligence, even if his inner circle and the Communist Party probably know to keep their mouths shut if they know what’s good for them.
That would be interesting and potentially frightening. If he plays it intelligently he could probably lose a lot less territory and be in Berlin by 42/43 which would make for a radically different world. Especially since in such a circumstance I can't see Hitler being willing to declare war on the US so your likely to see the Soviets occupy all of continental Europe. Not to mention what happens when the USSR completes its nuclear programme, which is likely to be earlier than OTL.
Of course Putin is a Russian nationalist and more of a fascist than a communist so he might have some complications but the two groups are close enough together in many ways so it shouldn't be a great problem. However he also knows he's in a older body that died in 1953 OTL and while a better lifestyle might expand that he will need to start thinking about a successor. Definitely won't be Khrushchev as he's Ukrainian but I wonder if he might try purging other people and how others in the Politburo might respond. Doubt he would be couped, especially with the personality coup he would expand on and his 'success' in the war against Hitler.
Coolio. Being the statesman who was once a KGB officer, has likely ordered the assassinations of political rivals, and has presided over what one might call an authoritarian democracy long before being SI-d to Uncle Joe, I'd guess that Putin would be indurated enough to purge "potential liabilities" of his without regret. Even if he's presumably neither vindictive, nor crazy enough to launch needless, paranoia-driven terror campaigns that rattle Soviet society to the extent that it did under Joe Stalin IOTL. So long as that's the case, however, maybe he'll micromanage less and listen to his generals more, though he's sufficiently smart and historical literate to realize that even the Red Army's top brass will probably be too terrified to speak up at first (due to their history with the previous occupier of Putin's new body). Turning his attention to warding off the coming mass-blitzkrieg from the west, I assume that in addition to revving up a Soviet nuclear program much sooner as you've already pointed out, as well as rapidly militarizing the Red Army, transferring industrial plants to the Ural Mountains and pumping out KV-1s and T-34s to counteract German armor when the time comes (which I've already pointed out in my initial post). Combined with what must be Putin's above-average hindsight when it comes to turning points in Russian history like Operation Barbarossa, and something tells me that he'd be a far more competent and sensible commander-in-chief than J. Stalin ever was. Oh, imagine the Germans' surprise when they see that those "barbaric Slavs to the East" were well prepared for their onslaught--never mind how they could turn the tide of the war and take Berlin a couple years earlier than IOTL, as you said. On the domestic front, and probably also after he brings an early end to World War Two as well, I wonder if Putin will contemplate borrowing a few lines from Deng Xiaoping's playbook and introducing capitalistic reforms to the USSR (even if the Communist Party and society at large would treat that as heresy if he weren't their supreme leader)? Maybe he'd remind the masses about how Lenin considered implementing the similar NEP to boost economic recovery after the civil war when announcing these "proposals" for the Politburo to mull over, though more diplomatic language like that would be more of a formality than not due to "Stalin"'s absolute control. Who he'd deem his successor even if little Vladimir are too young to take over (though he'd probably give the Putin family a huge boost for nepotistic reasons anyway), I don't know. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 18, 2020 16:08:43 GMT
That would be interesting and potentially frightening. If he plays it intelligently he could probably lose a lot less territory and be in Berlin by 42/43 which would make for a radically different world. Especially since in such a circumstance I can't see Hitler being willing to declare war on the US so your likely to see the Soviets occupy all of continental Europe. Not to mention what happens when the USSR completes its nuclear programme, which is likely to be earlier than OTL.
Of course Putin is a Russian nationalist and more of a fascist than a communist so he might have some complications but the two groups are close enough together in many ways so it shouldn't be a great problem. However he also knows he's in a older body that died in 1953 OTL and while a better lifestyle might expand that he will need to start thinking about a successor. Definitely won't be Khrushchev as he's Ukrainian but I wonder if he might try purging other people and how others in the Politburo might respond. Doubt he would be couped, especially with the personality coup he would expand on and his 'success' in the war against Hitler.
Coolio. Being the statesman who was once a KGB officer, has likely ordered the assassinations of political rivals, and has presided over what one might call an authoritarian democracy long before being SI-d to Uncle Joe, I'd guess that Putin would be indurated enough to purge "potential liabilities" of his without regret. Even if he's presumably neither vindictive, nor crazy enough to launch needless, paranoia-driven terror campaigns that rattle Soviet society to the extent that it did under Joe Stalin IOTL. So long as that's the case, however, maybe he'll micromanage less and listen to his generals more, though he's sufficiently smart and historical literate to realize that even the Red Army's top brass will probably be too terrified to speak up at first (due to their history with the previous occupier of Putin's new body). Turning his attention to warding off the coming mass-blitzkrieg from the west, I assume that in addition to revving up a Soviet nuclear program much sooner as you've already pointed out, as well as rapidly militarizing the Red Army, transferring industrial plants to the Ural Mountains and pumping out KV-1s and T-34s to counteract German armor when the time comes (which I've already pointed out in my initial post). Combined with what must be Putin's above-average hindsight when it comes to turning points in Russian history like Operation Barbarossa, and something tells me that he'd be a far more competent and sensible commander-in-chief than J. Stalin ever was. Oh, imagine the Germans' surprise when they see that those "barbaric Slavs to the East" were well prepared for their onslaught--never mind how they could turn the tide of the war and take Berlin a couple years earlier than IOTL, as you said. On the domestic front, and probably also after he brings an early end to World War Two as well, I wonder if Putin will contemplate borrowing a few lines from Deng Xiaoping's playbook and introducing capitalistic reforms to the USSR (even if the Communist Party and society at large would treat that as heresy if he weren't their supreme leader)? Maybe he'd remind the masses about how Lenin considered implementing the similar NEP to boost economic recovery after the civil war when announcing these "proposals" for the Politburo to mull over, though more diplomatic language like that would be more of a formality than not due to "Stalin"'s absolute control. Who he'd deem his successor even if little Vladimir are too young to take over (though he'd probably give the Putin family a huge boost for nepotistic reasons anyway), I don't know.
Well the Red Army was already moblising at a very rapid rate. That was part of the problem as a lot of units were taking on new equipment they were still unfamiliar with and unable to support properly when the blow came. This time however it should be handled somewhat better. You might see armour and other mechanised upgrades concentrates in powerful units for counter-attacks set a bit further back rather than having so much so close to the border its lost almost immediately. Plus a shuffling of commanders to get the better ones in the key positions and the crap in important posts either on the front where they will die valiantly in defence of the motherland or defending Siberia. I can also see a certain Andrey_Vlasov having a fatal health problem as well.
Of course one thing Putin might not realise is that butterflies are likely to result in some things changing. The attack might not come on exactly the day he expects for instance and how he interacts with Germany, knowing what's coming could change things. Given Hitler's desires the attack is going to be coming and very much as OTL but there might be some butterflies.
I'm not sure he would be moving that much industry eastwards. Both because that's a admission of a defeat he thinks he can avoid and because it would be a big blow to production right at the start of the war. Also even for someone with Stalin's dominance its going to be hard to explain making such a move before a German attack comes. Of course what to move and what not is going to be difficult but anything east of the Dvina and Dnieper rivers should be OK if he gets the defences working properly. Of course an additional problem with such a policy is that if it leaks it will raise questions in Berlin.
Suspect that he will introduce economic reforms of some sort, if only to get the sort of corrupt oligarchy he's used to and profits from. Although there was a lot of that in the Soviet system anyway and he might actually prefer the absolute power that Stalin and the Communists already have. Not sure he would have that much interest in Stalin's actual family as their Putin's blood relatives. He might try and help give his family a good boost, although its another 11 years before he's born so not even sure whether his parents have meet yet.
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