lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 19, 2020 13:05:13 GMT
lordroel , As to today's WWII post. a) See the RAF are continuing with costly attacks on targets in western Europe.  b) I think there is a typo in
I suspect this should be that the demand for the missionaries to leave Korea be dropped? Steve
Thanks will edit it. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 20, 2020 7:07:21 GMT
lordroel ,
On today's WWI thread post you have two separate mentions of the sinking of U-23, i.e.
and
which seems rather redundant.
Interesting that considering the Italian offenses against the Austrian defences are normally portrayed as disastrous and basically very poorly implemented they do seem to be putting together a good offensive in the section you have described with some success and and a well organised artillery set-up.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 20, 2020 14:08:40 GMT
lordroel , On today's WWI thread post you have two separate mentions of the sinking of U-23, i.e.
and
which seems rather redundant. Interesting that considering the Italian offenses against the Austrian defences are normally portrayed as disastrous and basically very poorly implemented they do seem to be putting together a good offensive in the section you have described with some success and and a well organised artillery set-up. Steve
Thanks, i will remove one of them. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2020 8:47:48 GMT
Comments on today's WWI thread. a) Ah so, the Italian success yesterday was short-lived. Definitely digging in to protect your troops is a serious problem when talking about mountain. 
b) Interesting idea for a moderate peace with Russia at this stage. Would very likely be a war winner for the central powers at this stage. Suspect that Petrograd will reject the idea and also that Berlin won't be too friendly to the idea but interested to see what if anything comes from it. Hadn't heard of this proposal before. Can easily see Conrad and a lot of the Austrian hierarchy talking this view with regards to Italy. Plus the wiser ones probably won't want many more reluctant Slavic subjects given how many they have already.
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 24, 2020 12:09:37 GMT
lordroel ,
I'm a little confused by the section on the British raids on German ships in France, see
It does go on in a later post to mention a successful attack on Scharnhorst at a different port but I can't see a mention of another ship being damaged in the attacks?
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 24, 2020 12:15:03 GMT
lordroel , I'm a little confused by the section on the British raids on German ships in France, see
It does go on in a later post to mention a successful attack on Scharnhorst at a different port but I can't see a mention of another ship being damaged in the attacks?
Steve
Maybe this help: Operation Sunrise 24 July 1941 - I./JG 2 vs. RAF bombers over France Another source i found says this: On the 24th July 1941 Bomber Command made a daylight attack on Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen in the Brest area. Following info comes from Tony Wood´s Combat Claims and Casualties List:
“Daylight Attack on Brest & La Pallice. A strong force totaling 149 aircraft was detailed for a daylight attack on the Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen at Brest and the Scharnhorst at La Pallice, with Blenheims acting as a diversion at Cherbourg. From reports so far received, 3 Boeings, 56 Wellingtons and 18 Hampdens reached Brest and attacked the German warships. The Boeings opened the attack in ideal weather soon after 14.00 hours and were followed by the main body, escorted by Spitfires, in a sustained attack lasting until 15.45 hours. Enemy fighters and A.A. put up a strong defence but it had no effect on the tactics planned by the bombing force, which carried out its task with great success. Seven direct-hits were registered on the Gneisenau; the Prinz Eugen and the large tanker were both straddled and in all probability damaged. Apart from the hits, many bursts were observed on and around the docks in which the warships are berthed and severe damage was inflicted upon the barracks and dock buildings adjacent to the targets. Owing to evasive action after dropping their bombs, several crews were unable to observe the results of their attack.
The Scharnhorst recently left Brest for a quieter life at La Pallice. Her departure did not past un-noticed and, after receiving a direct-hit from a Stirling on the evening of 23rd July, her new home was well plastered during the same night. Today, whilst the attack was developing at Brest, 15 Halifaxes attacked her again and at least one direct-hit is claimed. In all, this force dropped 127 tons of H.E.
Final figures are not yet available but the latest information indicates that the following casualties to enemy-fighters are claimed by aircraft of Bomber Command during the daylight operations over Brest and La Pallice: 21-7-8.
…
Ref: Extracts from Bomber Command Summaries (Air 25/201).
Summary for Operation Sunrise at 13.26 on 24th July 1941 to the Naval-Base at Brest. Fighters taking part: 9 squadrons, 99 sorties, 3-0-1 claimed for 2 lost. Bombers taking part: 3 Fortress, 18 Hampdens, 79 Wellingtons and 15 Halifaxes, 16 lost. Ref: RAF/FC Summary of Sorties (Air 16/1307)”
Most of the Bomber Command claims of 21 destroyed, 7 probably destroyed and 8 damaged (21 was nearly a quarter of the claims for destroyed E/A by BC during 1941) were made by Wellington crews from 1 and 3 Groups with the rest made by 5 Group Hampdens and 4 Group Halifax crews. Most of the claims involved Messerschmitt Bf 109s but a 75 Sqn crew was seen to shot down a Bf 110 before their own aircraft crashed into the sea. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 24, 2020 13:27:01 GMT
lordroel , I'm a little confused by the section on the British raids on German ships in France, see
It does go on in a later post to mention a successful attack on Scharnhorst at a different port but I can't see a mention of another ship being damaged in the attacks?
Steve
Maybe this help: Operation Sunrise 24 July 1941 - I./JG 2 vs. RAF bombers over France Another source i found says this: On the 24th July 1941 Bomber Command made a daylight attack on Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen in the Brest area. Following info comes from Tony Wood´s Combat Claims and Casualties List:
“Daylight Attack on Brest & La Pallice. A strong force totaling 149 aircraft was detailed for a daylight attack on the Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen at Brest and the Scharnhorst at La Pallice, with Blenheims acting as a diversion at Cherbourg. From reports so far received, 3 Boeings, 56 Wellingtons and 18 Hampdens reached Brest and attacked the German warships. The Boeings opened the attack in ideal weather soon after 14.00 hours and were followed by the main body, escorted by Spitfires, in a sustained attack lasting until 15.45 hours. Enemy fighters and A.A. put up a strong defence but it had no effect on the tactics planned by the bombing force, which carried out its task with great success. Seven direct-hits were registered on the Gneisenau; the Prinz Eugen and the large tanker were both straddled and in all probability damaged. Apart from the hits, many bursts were observed on and around the docks in which the warships are berthed and severe damage was inflicted upon the barracks and dock buildings adjacent to the targets. Owing to evasive action after dropping their bombs, several crews were unable to observe the results of their attack.
The Scharnhorst recently left Brest for a quieter life at La Pallice. Her departure did not past un-noticed and, after receiving a direct-hit from a Stirling on the evening of 23rd July, her new home was well plastered during the same night. Today, whilst the attack was developing at Brest, 15 Halifaxes attacked her again and at least one direct-hit is claimed. In all, this force dropped 127 tons of H.E.
Final figures are not yet available but the latest information indicates that the following casualties to enemy-fighters are claimed by aircraft of Bomber Command during the daylight operations over Brest and La Pallice: 21-7-8.
…
Ref: Extracts from Bomber Command Summaries (Air 25/201).
Summary for Operation Sunrise at 13.26 on 24th July 1941 to the Naval-Base at Brest. Fighters taking part: 9 squadrons, 99 sorties, 3-0-1 claimed for 2 lost. Bombers taking part: 3 Fortress, 18 Hampdens, 79 Wellingtons and 15 Halifaxes, 16 lost. Ref: RAF/FC Summary of Sorties (Air 16/1307)”
Most of the Bomber Command claims of 21 destroyed, 7 probably destroyed and 8 damaged (21 was nearly a quarter of the claims for destroyed E/A by BC during 1941) were made by Wellington crews from 1 and 3 Groups with the rest made by 5 Group Hampdens and 4 Group Halifax crews. Most of the claims involved Messerschmitt Bf 109s but a 75 Sqn crew was seen to shot down a Bf 110 before their own aircraft crashed into the sea.
That sounds like initial British beliefs that Gneisenau was hit heavily and they through Prince Eugen was probably hit but presumably neither were actually damaged?
Steve
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 25, 2020 15:08:23 GMT
Noticed a typo in today's WWII thread.
Presumably this is something like 4 Hampdens, and 1 Whitley lost?
Also
Of course Hitler does do so, with some success. However as well as the problems of getting there I have read that because of the strong currents in the straits its basically a 1-way mission as the levels at which they can run at the predominant current is into the Med and so fast that they can't travel out again.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 25, 2020 15:10:06 GMT
RAF Bomber Command raids Hannover (30 Hampdens, 25 Whitleys, 4 Hampdens, and 1 Hampden lost) and Hamburg (43 Wellingtons, 2 lost). The Hamburg raid causes four large fires in the city and shipyards, with one death and six injured. There is a diversionary raid by 7 Stirlings (2 lost) and 2 Halifaxes (one lost) on Berlin. Two Wellingtons bomb Emden. The losses during the night are heavy, with 10 of Will fix it, thanks for the spotting. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 26, 2020 10:24:07 GMT
lordroel , Today's WWI post. If Conrad and the other Austrians think Ukraine is a likely sticking point their setting a very high bar for their terms in getting a quick peace in the east. The region, especially if their talking about all of it as far as the Donbass is hugely important for Russia so since their only just being driven out of Poland after several months of heavy fighting I would be amazed if Petrograd even considered such an idea.
That seems a strange design for the MARIOTTE, albeit that this is the early days of subs. Instead of a central conning tower dominating the hull there's a relatively small one which looks quite far back - although unclear how far the hull goes, and a massive forecastle which presumably affects the entire balance of the hull. Possibly the idea with so much weight up front is it would help it dive quickly? Although conversely that would suggest the rear goes quite high in a crash dive which could be dangerous if under attack.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 26, 2020 10:28:21 GMT
That seems a strange design for the MARIOTTE, albeit that this is the early days of subs. Instead of a central conning tower dominating the hull there's a relatively small one which looks quite far back - although unclear how far the hull goes, and a massive forecastle which presumably affects the entire balance of the hull. Possibly the idea with so much weight up front is it would help it dive quickly? Although conversely that would suggest the rear goes quite high in a crash dive which could be dangerous if under attack. Steve
Yes a very strange design it is.  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 26, 2020 10:37:01 GMT
That seems a strange design for the MARIOTTE, albeit that this is the early days of subs. Instead of a central conning tower dominating the hull there's a relatively small one which looks quite far back - although unclear how far the hull goes, and a massive forecastle which presumably affects the entire balance of the hull. Possibly the idea with so much weight up front is it would help it dive quickly? Although conversely that would suggest the rear goes quite high in a crash dive which could be dangerous if under attack. Steve
Yes a very strange design it is.
Very quick response as well as informative. So that lump I thought was the conning tower is actually a fin just above the rudder. Thanks.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 26, 2020 10:45:53 GMT
Yes a very strange design it is. Very quick response as well as informative. So that lump I thought was the conning tower is actually a fin just above the rudder. Thanks. Steve
No problem i try my best to give quick, good responds. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 27, 2020 11:20:14 GMT
lordroel , Just to check on today's WWII post. On the eastern front you have:
If sounds to me that the 3rd paragraph relates to the closing of the Smolensk pocket whereas the 2nd paragraph refers to the ending of the smaller Mogilev pocket? If so would it be best moving the Mogilev section below the 3rd paragraph? Or am I misreading something?
Overall, unnatural as it is for me to say it, I tend more towards Hitler's viewpoint than that of the generals on this issue. Sending the two AGC Panzer forces driving further east is going to both allow more isolated Soviet forces to escape and probably more importantly attrition them even further and isolate them from supplies. There's a chance they might bounce their way to the outskirts of Moscow before the weather closes in but taking it, or even managing their massively over-extended supply lines. Plus it means the very large Soviet forces around Kiev are in a position to attack the southern flank of AGC.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 27, 2020 13:40:54 GMT
lordroel , Just to check on today's WWII post. On the eastern front you have:
If sounds to me that the 3rd paragraph relates to the closing of the Smolensk pocket whereas the 2nd paragraph refers to the ending of the smaller Mogilev pocket? If so would it be best moving the Mogilev section below the 3rd paragraph? Or am I misreading something? Overall, unnatural as it is for me to say it, I tend more towards Hitler's viewpoint than that of the generals on this issue. Sending the two AGC Panzer forces driving further east is going to both allow more isolated Soviet forces to escape and probably more importantly attrition them even further and isolate them from supplies. There's a chance they might bounce their way to the outskirts of Moscow before the weather closes in but taking it, or even managing their massively over-extended supply lines. Plus it means the very large Soviet forces around Kiev are in a position to attack the southern flank of AGC. Steve
Will edit it, thanks as always for spotting something the troll in charge should have done. |
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