Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer

lordroel
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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 24, 2020 14:45:35 GMT

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Post by lordroel on Jan 24, 2020 14:45:35 GMT

Jan 24, 2020 14:42:02 GMT simon darkshade said:

This skips a little ahead from Warhammer and 1963 to give a look at what the RAF is planned to look like in 1970 under the plans of the Barton Labour government as of 1965:

Projected 1970 RAF Order of Battle

Fighter Command (2400 aircraft)
600 English Electric Lightnings (25 Squadrons)
400 Avro Arrows (16 Squadrons)
400 Fairey Delta IIs (16 Squadrons)
400 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (16 Squadrons)
600 Supermarine Sunstars (25 Squadrons)

Bomber Command (2260 aircraft)
600 Avro Vulcans (25 Squadrons)
480 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s (20 Squadrons)
400 Handley-Page Vengeance (16 Squadrons)
120 Supermarine Victorys (5 Squadrons)

480 Bristol Skytankers (15 Squadrons)

60 Bristol Bluebirds (5 Squadrons)
120 Avro Vindicators (5 Squadrons)

256 Blue Streak ICBM (4 Squadrons; 6400 miles; 160 with 10 and 96 with 25 Mt)
240 Black Arrow MRBM (4 Squadrons; 2500 miles; 2.5 Mt)
250 Red King GLCM (4 Squadrons; 3200 miles; 1 Mt)

Strike Command (1200 aircraft)
240 Gloster Lions (10 Squadrons)
240 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (10 Squadrons)
240 de Havilland Tornadoes (10 Squadrons)
240 McDonnell Phantoms (10 Squadrons)
240 Vickers Thunderbolts (10 Squadrons)

RAF Germany (960 aircraft)
240 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (10 Squadrons)
240 Hawker-Siddeley Merlins (8 Squadrons)
120 Supermarine Sunstars (5 Squadrons)
120 English Electric Lightnings (5 Squadrons)
120 de Havilland Tornados (5 Squadrons)
120 Gloster Lions (5 Squadrons)

Transport Command (880 aircraft)
360 Hawker-Siddeley Skyblazers (15 Squadrons)
240 Vickers Voyagers (10 Squadrons)
200 Shorts Belfasts (8 Squadrons)
120 Armstrong Whitworth Atlases (5 Squadrons)

Middle East Air Force (624 aircraft)
120 de Havilland Tornados (5 Squadrons)
120 Hawker Siddeley Harriers (5 Squadrons)
120 English Electric Lightnings (5 Squadrons)
120 McDonnell Phantoms (5 Squadrons)
72 Vickers Thunderbolts (3 Squadrons)
48 Avro Arrows (2 Squadrons)
24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron)

Far East Air Force (624 aircraft)
120 de Havilland Tornados (5 Squadrons)
120 English Electric Lightnings (5 Squadrons)
120 Hawker-Siddeley Harriers (5 Squadrons)
120 McDonnell Phantoms (5 Squadrons)
72 Vickers Thunderbolts (3 Squadrons)
48 Avro Arrows (2 Squadrons)
24 Fairey Rotodynes (1 Squadron)

My god, even in 1970 the RAF is a giant.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 24, 2020 14:54:15 GMT

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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 24, 2020 14:54:15 GMT

The projections, and they need to be viewed as such as of 1965, are based on an ongoing war in the Far East, as well as certain purchases being made. The increase of Fighter Command is viewed as contentious, as is the notion of buying US Phantoms.

The RAF is the largest air force of the European powers, with France deploying ~5200 aircraft and Germany ~4500.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 24, 2020 14:57:41 GMT

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Post by stevep on Jan 24, 2020 14:57:41 GMT

Jan 24, 2020 14:42:02 GMT simon darkshade said:

This skips a little ahead from Warhammer and 1963 to give a look at what the RAF is planned to look like in 1970 under the plans of the Barton Labour government as of 1965:

Projected 1970 RAF Order of Battle

Bomber Command (2260 aircraft)
600 Avro Vulcans (25 Squadrons)
480 Supermarine Eagle TSR-2s (20 Squadrons)
400 Handley-Page Vengeance (16 Squadrons)
120 Supermarine Victorys (5 Squadrons)

480 Bristol Skytankers (15 Squadrons)

60 Bristol Bluebirds (5 Squadrons)
120 Avro Vindicators (5 Squadrons)

256 Blue Streak ICBM (4 Squadrons; 6400 miles; 160 with 10 and 96 with 25 Mt)
240 Black Arrow MRBM (4 Squadrons; 2500 miles; 2.5 Mt)
250 Red King GLCM (4 Squadrons; 3200 miles; 1 Mt)

simon darkshade,

Well that's an air force! Just looking at the strategic forces, that's a hell of a lot of nukes. Are all the V bombers long ranged heavy bombers? Although by 1970 I suspect their penetration ability would be getting uncertain by then, unless their starting to use stand off missiles.

How far is it from Britain to Moscow for instances on DE as its somewhat larger? Even the Blue Streak's won't reach across much of the country but probably to the Urals at least? Also by 1970 are the US starting to deploy MIRVs? In that case Britain might feel forced to follow suit. Which would make them even more lethal potentially but would probably be expensive developing the relevant technology, especially if ASB systems aren't stopped as OTL.

Steve

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 24, 2020 15:29:32 GMT stevep likes this

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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 24, 2020 15:29:32 GMT

Thanks Steve, it is a large superpower level force, albeit the smallest of the three superpowers and smaller than that of Imperial China.

The Victorys will have the true penetrator role due to their speed and altitude. The Vengeances and TSR-2s kick down the door by blasting open Soviet air defences, followed by stand off missiles from half of the Vulcans, with the remaining Vulcans and Victorys going in deep.

With a range of 6400 miles, the Blue Streaks can hit all of the USSR.

The distance from Britain to Moscow is ~2800 miles, so that the fastest British missiles can get there in 10-15 minutes; closer ranged SLBM shots from the Eastern Med or Norwegian Sea could be even quicker.

MIRVs are being contemplated in 1965 and will be a factor, along with greatly advanced ABM systems.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 25, 2020 21:49:50 GMT

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Post by lordroel on Jan 25, 2020 21:49:50 GMT

Jan 24, 2020 15:29:32 GMT simon darkshade said:

Thanks Steve, it is a large superpower level force, albeit the smallest of the three superpowers and smaller than that of Imperial China.

The Victorys will have the true penetrator role due to their speed and altitude. The Vengeances and TSR-2s kick down the door by blasting open Soviet air defences, followed by stand off missiles from half of the Vulcans, with the remaining Vulcans and Victorys going in deep.

With a range of 6400 miles, the Blue Streaks can hit all of the USSR.

The distance from Britain to Moscow is ~2800 miles, so that the fastest British missiles can get there in 10-15 minutes; closer ranged SLBM shots from the Eastern Med or Norwegian Sea could be even quicker.

MIRVs are being contemplated in 1965 and will be a factor, along with greatly advanced ABM systems.

No Tsar type of bombs for the RAF ore are those 96 with 25 Mt enough.

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simon darkshade Inspector-General Member is Online Posts: 4,976 Likes: 5,840	Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 26, 2020 0:48:45 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by simon darkshade on Jan 26, 2020 0:48:45 GMT The Vulcans have the capacity to carry very large bombs of 50 or 100 megatons, but there isn’t really the need.
	Last Edit: Jan 26, 2020 0:49:04 GMT by simon darkshade

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 26, 2020 9:08:02 GMT

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Post by lordroel on Jan 26, 2020 9:08:02 GMT

Jan 26, 2020 0:48:45 GMT simon darkshade said:

The Vulcans have the capacity to carry very large bombs of 50 or 100 megatons, but there isn’t really the need.

True, the current arsenals of the major World powers and none major world powers already exceeds the arsenals from OTL i guess.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 26, 2020 12:04:11 GMT lordroel likes this

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Post by stevep on Jan 26, 2020 12:04:11 GMT

Jan 26, 2020 9:08:02 GMT lordroel said:

Jan 26, 2020 0:48:45 GMT simon darkshade said:

The Vulcans have the capacity to carry very large bombs of 50 or 100 megatons, but there isn’t really the need.

True, the current arsenals of the major World powers and none major world powers already exceeds the arsenals from OTL i guess.

I think the key thing is that with MIRVing capacity and increased accuracy warhead sizes has dropped considerable. The sort of multi-megaton warheads that formed much of the strategic forces in the 1950's and 60's are often more in the _~200kT and below range now.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 27, 2020 2:35:14 GMT lordroel likes this

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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 2:35:14 GMT

The early 1960s arsenals of gravity bombs were much larger in megatonnage by the nature of the bomber-delivered deterrent. As Steve says, increased accuracy means reduced need for very large warheads and we are likely to see the same trend here, particularly as bombers start to increase their load with stand-off missiles, which necessitate smaller warheads.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 27, 2020 4:14:27 GMT

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Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 4:14:27 GMT

Jan 27, 2020 2:35:14 GMT simon darkshade said:

The early 1960s arsenals of gravity bombs were much larger in megatonnage by the nature of the bomber-delivered deterrent. As Steve says, increased accuracy means reduced need for very large warheads and we are likely to see the same trend here, particularly as bombers start to increase their load with stand-off missiles, which necessitate smaller warheads.

So bombers can carry more stand-off missiles with smaller warheads making them better for use on the battlefield.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 27, 2020 5:08:56 GMT lordroel likes this

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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 5:08:56 GMT

All of the major bomber operating nations will eventually move towards a combination of ALBMs, ALCMs and shorter range strike missiles in the Blue Steel/SRAM categories, in addition to gravity bombs for certain types of target.

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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 27, 2020 5:14:01 GMT via mobile

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Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 5:14:01 GMT

Jan 27, 2020 5:08:56 GMT simon darkshade said:

All of the major bomber operating nations will eventually move towards a combination of ALBMs, ALCMs and shorter range strike missiles in the Blue Steel/SRAM categories, in addition to gravity bombs for certain types of target.

Will they also focus more in battlefield use ore keep focusing on deterrent.

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simon darkshade Inspector-General Member is Online Posts: 4,976 Likes: 5,840	Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 27, 2020 6:13:24 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 6:13:24 GMT Strategic bombers would be focussed on the strategic mission; tactical battlefield nuclear platforms/aircraft are somewhat different.

lordroel Administrator Posts: 67,964 Likes: 49,368	Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 27, 2020 15:05:23 GMT Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 15:05:23 GMT Jan 27, 2020 6:13:24 GMT simon darkshade said: tactical battlefield nuclear platforms/aircraft are somewhat different. Would Strike Command be the once doing that.
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Dark Earth: Exercise Warhammer Jan 27, 2020 15:37:13 GMT

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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 15:37:13 GMT

Let us see:

Fighter Command will field nuclear SAMs, nuclear ABMs, nuclear Skyblade MR and Galahad LR AAMs; unlike the USAF, the RAF doesn’t field short range nuclear AAMs or unguided rockets.

Bomber Command’s TSR-2s have a semi-strategic/theatre role involving gravity bombs and Blue Steel.

All of Strike Command’s aircraft would be nuclear capable apart from the Lions.

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Post by lordroel on Jan 24, 2020 14:45:35 GMT

Post by simon darkshade on Jan 24, 2020 14:54:15 GMT

Post by stevep on Jan 24, 2020 14:57:41 GMT

Post by simon darkshade on Jan 24, 2020 15:29:32 GMT

Post by lordroel on Jan 25, 2020 21:49:50 GMT

Post by simon darkshade on Jan 26, 2020 0:48:45 GMT

Post by lordroel on Jan 26, 2020 9:08:02 GMT

Post by stevep on Jan 26, 2020 12:04:11 GMT

Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 2:35:14 GMT

Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 4:14:27 GMT

Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 5:08:56 GMT

Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 5:14:01 GMT

Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 6:13:24 GMT

Post by lordroel on Jan 27, 2020 15:05:23 GMT

Post by simon darkshade on Jan 27, 2020 15:37:13 GMT