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Post by simon darkshade on May 19, 2020 11:52:55 GMT
I’ve expanded and reordered some of the mobilisation notes above into a clearer format.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 19, 2020 17:48:54 GMT
I’ve expanded and reordered some of the mobilisation notes above into a clearer format. I remember reading about "Queen's Order 2" in Red Storm Rising from Tom Clancy and now i read it again here in you mobilization plan, is it real ore made up. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 19, 2020 22:44:07 GMT
It is real and was the general mobilisation order.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2020 3:45:16 GMT
It is real and was the general mobilisation order. So does "Queen's Order 1" and "Queen's Order 3" excist as well. Did find this A Very Quick Look At Cold War UK Civil Defence, does this also apply to the Darkearth verse. How does the control of nuclear weapons in the United Kingdom works, it is similar like the United States with the President having the suitcase and then it goes down the line of command. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 20, 2020 7:45:24 GMT
I’ve never seen any reference to either in a Cold War context. I can only surmise that any ‘Queen’s Order 1’ would have been a previous Order in Council regarding emergency powers. The link you referenced and one or two other sources indicate pre-prepared emergency powers bills to be fast tracked through Parliament:
- Special Powers Bill
- The Readiness Bill
- The General Bill
In Dark Earth, these and the various Emergency Powers Acts are coordinates by an overarching Defence of the Realm Act. This reflects the almost continual state of heightened preparedness since the 1890s (!). Since then, there has been the War of the Worlds, South African Rebellion, World War One, the Anglo-Soviet Crisis and War, pre-WW2 rearmament, World War Two, the start of the Cold War, the Korean War, various colonial campaigns, the Middle East War of 1956, the 1960 Red Shadow Crisis and now the Anglo-Indonesian Confrontation and the Vietnam War. The longest recent period without a major war and associated mobilisation/reaction as of 1965 was forty years ago - 1925.
Civil Defence is given a far higher priority rather than the gradually downgrading status of the 1960s in @. Some of the steps are similar, whereas others are particular to Dark Earth.
Control of nuclear weapons:
SSBNs are issued with Letters of Last Resort. Under Stanley Barton, they all carry the word “Retaliate”. Publicly stating this was somewhat controversial, but made deterrence very, very clear.
ICBMs, bombers and strategic artillery: The Prime Minister has a very nice button emblazoned with a Union Jack on his desk in 10 Downing Street.
When he is away from the office, there is an atomic Gladstone bag that contains a magic phone with a nice Union Jack button, but this is a bit unwieldy and consideration is being given to its replacement with a shoephone
When pressed, they allow the PM to pick up the phone and be connected by sorcerous holographic link to Joint Strategic Command and order a strike, based on various attack options, each of which has a single number. The process takes less than 10 seconds. The phone and button are specially attuned to the individual PM and cannot be used by anyone else. If the PM is unavailable, other buttons and phones are progressively activated, based on arcane attunement. The C-I-C of Bomber Command can launch as necessary once the order is given.
Under the precise letter of the law, the right to make war belongs to the Crown, with the Queen having a nuclear handbag in the case of her Government being incapacitated.
Apart from general retaliation measures, there are no PALs or restrictions on nuclear weapons deployed in the field.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2020 9:16:41 GMT
I’ve never seen any reference to either in a Cold War context. I can only surmise that any ‘Queen’s Order 1’ would have been a previous Order in Council regarding emergency powers. The link you referenced and one or two other sources indicate pre-prepared emergency powers bills to be fast tracked through Parliament: - Special Powers Bill - The Readiness Bill - The General Bill In Dark Earth, these and the various Emergency Powers Acts are coordinates by an overarching Defence of the Realm Act. This reflects the almost continual state of heightened preparedness since the 1890s (!). Since then, there has been the War of the Worlds, South African Rebellion, World War One, the Anglo-Soviet Crisis and War, pre-WW2 rearmament, World War Two, the start of the Cold War, the Korean War, various colonial campaigns, the Middle East War of 1956, the 1960 Red Shadow Crisis and now the Anglo-Indonesian Confrontation and the Vietnam War. The longest recent period without a major war and associated mobilisation/reaction as of 1965 was forty years ago - 1925. Civil Defence is given a far higher priority rather than the gradually downgrading status of the 1960s in @. Some of the steps are similar, whereas others are particular to Dark Earth. Control of nuclear weapons: SSBNs are issued with Letters of Last Resort. Under Stanley Barton, they all carry the word “Retaliate”. Publicly stating this was somewhat controversial, but made deterrence very, very clear. ICBMs, bombers and strategic artillery: The Prime Minister has a very nice button emblazoned with a Union Jack on his desk in 10 Downing Street. When he is away from the office, there is an atomic Gladstone bag that contains a magic phone with a nice Union Jack button, but this is a bit unwieldy and consideration is being given to its replacement with a shoephone When pressed, they allow the PM to pick up the phone and be connected by sorcerous holographic link to Joint Strategic Command and order a strike, based on various attack options, each of which has a single number. The process takes less than 10 seconds. The phone and button are specially attuned to the individual PM and cannot be used by anyone else. If the PM is unavailable, other buttons and phones are progressively activated, based on arcane attunement. The C-I-C of Bomber Command can launch as necessary once the order is given. Under the precise letter of the law, the right to make war belongs to the Crown, with the Queen having a nuclear handbag in the case of her Government being incapacitated. Apart from general retaliation measures, there are no PALs or restrictions on nuclear weapons deployed in the field. Wait the Queen can push the button. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 20, 2020 10:49:45 GMT
Naturally. The role of the monarch in Dark Earth Britain is a lot more powerful in actual terms. The lack of the English Civil War lead to a gradual transfer of some powers from the Crown to the Crown in Parliament. She holds very broad discretionary powers, both reigning and ruling to a certain extent.
The Queen is the head of state, Supreme Governor of the Church of England and commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces. The Crown is suzerain of the non-human kingdoms and polities and holds the treasures of the kingdom in trust. She declares war and peace, ratifies laws and treaties, convenes and dissolves Parliament, calls elections, dismisses the government.
Some of the other key differences:
- No Parliament Acts of 1911 or 1949
- The PM follows the commands and advice of the Sovereign
- The Sovereign remains the arbiter of last resort
- The Monarch has the capacity to exercise real political power, but chooses not to
- Lese-majeste remains an active crime
- Dragons swear allegiance to the Crown
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 20, 2020 10:59:09 GMT
I’ve never seen any reference to either in a Cold War context. I can only surmise that any ‘Queen’s Order 1’ would have been a previous Order in Council regarding emergency powers. The link you referenced and one or two other sources indicate pre-prepared emergency powers bills to be fast tracked through Parliament: - Special Powers Bill - The Readiness Bill - The General Bill In Dark Earth, these and the various Emergency Powers Acts are coordinates by an overarching Defence of the Realm Act. This reflects the almost continual state of heightened preparedness since the 1890s (!). Since then, there has been the War of the Worlds, South African Rebellion, World War One, the Anglo-Soviet Crisis and War, pre-WW2 rearmament, World War Two, the start of the Cold War, the Korean War, various colonial campaigns, the Middle East War of 1956, the 1960 Red Shadow Crisis and now the Anglo-Indonesian Confrontation and the Vietnam War. The longest recent period without a major war and associated mobilisation/reaction as of 1965 was forty years ago - 1925. Civil Defence is given a far higher priority rather than the gradually downgrading status of the 1960s in @. Some of the steps are similar, whereas others are particular to Dark Earth. Control of nuclear weapons: SSBNs are issued with Letters of Last Resort. Under Stanley Barton, they all carry the word “Retaliate”. Publicly stating this was somewhat controversial, but made deterrence very, very clear. ICBMs, bombers and strategic artillery: The Prime Minister has a very nice button emblazoned with a Union Jack on his desk in 10 Downing Street. When he is away from the office, there is an atomic Gladstone bag that contains a magic phone with a nice Union Jack button, but this is a bit unwieldy and consideration is being given to its replacement with a shoephone When pressed, they allow the PM to pick up the phone and be connected by sorcerous holographic link to Joint Strategic Command and order a strike, based on various attack options, each of which has a single number. The process takes less than 10 seconds. The phone and button are specially attuned to the individual PM and cannot be used by anyone else. If the PM is unavailable, other buttons and phones are progressively activated, based on arcane attunement. The C-I-C of Bomber Command can launch as necessary once the order is given. Under the precise letter of the law, the right to make war belongs to the Crown, with the Queen having a nuclear handbag in the case of her Government being incapacitated. Apart from general retaliation measures, there are no PALs or restrictions on nuclear weapons deployed in the field.
Very interesting and one point is worrying. Prompts a number of questions/points.
a) "the Anglo-Soviet Crisis and War". You probably have mentioned this before but I couldn't remember it. Was there a clear conflict between us and the Soviets or simply a larger intervention in the Russian civil war after WWI? The other alternative is that the Zinoviev_letter scandal over the forged letter to discredit the minority Labour government of the time has even more impact.
b) There is one clear danger with the Retaliate order to the subs. If London is attacked - or by other means they lose contact with the authorities but they know there's been a nuclear attack how clearly would they know who had launched the attack? Always possible that a 3rd party hostile to either/both Britain and the USSR could seek to cripple two rival powers with one blow, possibly more if other allies, most noticeably the empire and the US are brought in and if they honestly believe they could survive a full scale nuclear exchange where they might not be targeted. It makes things simple for the sub commanders and should be a very effective deterrent against a Soviet 1st strike but does have a possible weakness as nuclear weapons, especially sub launched ones, spread.
c) Interesting idea having the queen's finger on the button if the elected government is incapacitated.
d) The lack of PALs  could be very dangerous given the much greater number of nuclear weapons about and also powers with such weapons. It only needs one renegade, lunatic or misunderstanding or a weapon falling into the wrong hands and the result could be very nasty indeed. Is this lack only in Britain or in all the major nuclear powers? Point b) is a relatively low probability factor but this is a hell of a risk.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on May 20, 2020 11:27:52 GMT
Steve,
A.) The Anglo-Soviet War occurred in 1926-27, with the lead up starting in 1925/25 and the aftermath continuing until the early 1930s.
Here are some notes:
1925: Growing clashes and tension in Central Asia
1925/26: Naval confrontations and deployment of the Mediterranean Fleet. Clashes in China and Sinkiang and growing tension in Afghanistan. Tense moments on the high seas.
1926/27: Proxy rebellion in Northern Persia leads to deployment of a British/Indian expeditionary Force as well as significant numbers of RAF heavy bombers. Fighting in Afghanistan breaks out between British Indian Army and Red Army.
Late 1927/early 1928: Royal Navy fleet moves to Baltic and matters are resolved through the League of Nations.
There will be a number of results from such a conflict:
- Renewed Red Scare impacting on politics and social development
- Relaxation of some restrictions on Germany
- Strained relations between the Soviets and the West
- Abandonment of anything close to the Ten Year Rule and the gradual beginnings of rearmament plans
- That would put a stake through the heart of the disarmament movement
- Reform of the British Army increased, including the Experimental Mechanised Force and a version of the Churchill Report. The Army is not the forgotten service any more
- French alarm at being pulled into a European war because of British imperial policy
- British tank and aircraft development starts to build up again, which pushes things ahead in France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Soviet Union, Japan and the USA
- Some economic worries at a war scare
- Provides a big background to Soviet distrust of the West and particularly of British warnings prior to the German invasion of 1941
B.) You are not only right, but hit upon a future plot point. The two possible enemies are the Soviet Union and China; if matters have got to the extent of the SSBN fleet being all that is left over, the general plan is “ Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.”
The SSBNs wouldn’t be the only asset leftover, though. Bomber Command has airborne bombers and aircraft deployed all around the world. Additionally, there are plans for some very novel secret deployment locations for Blue Streak.
C.) As said, the Queen isn’t just a figurehead commander-in-chief. She did serve in the Second World War, as in @. There has also been a mention somewhere, I believe, of King George VI personally commanding the Army in the field in Ardennes Offensive of 1944.
D.) Historically, PALs were only just being contemplated by the USA at this point. Britain never used them, with gravity bombs deployed on aircraft being secured simply by what amounted to a bicycle lock. Thor IRBMs could be fired independently with a few hits with a wrench. As such, security is supplied by vetting, special geas spells and trusting chaps who went to the right schools.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 20, 2020 11:53:11 GMT
Steve, A.) The Anglo-Soviet War occurred in 1926-27, with the lead up starting in 1925/25 and the aftermath continuing until the early 1930s. Here are some notes: 1925: Growing clashes and tension in Central Asia 1925/26: Naval confrontations and deployment of the Mediterranean Fleet. Clashes in China and Sinkiang and growing tension in Afghanistan. Tense moments on the high seas. 1926/27: Proxy rebellion in Northern Persia leads to deployment of a British/Indian expeditionary Force as well as significant numbers of RAF heavy bombers. Fighting in Afghanistan breaks out between British Indian Army and Red Army. Late 1927/early 1928: Royal Navy fleet moves to Baltic and matters are resolved through the League of Nations. There will be a number of results from such a conflict: - Renewed Red Scare impacting on politics and social development - Relaxation of some restrictions on Germany - Strained relations between the Soviets and the West - Abandonment of anything close to the Ten Year Rule and the gradual beginnings of rearmament plans - That would put a stake through the heart of the disarmament movement - Reform of the British Army increased, including the Experimental Mechanised Force and a version of the Churchill Report. The Army is not the forgotten service any more - French alarm at being pulled into a European war because of British imperial policy - British tank and aircraft development starts to build up again, which pushes things ahead in France, Germany, Italy, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Soviet Union, Japan and the USA - Some economic worries at a war scare - Provides a big background to Soviet distrust of the West and particularly of British warnings prior to the German invasion of 1941 B.) You are not only right, but hit upon a future plot point. The two possible enemies are the Soviet Union and China; if matters have got to the extent of the SSBN fleet being all that is left over, the general plan is “ Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.” The SSBNs wouldn’t be the only asset leftover, though. Bomber Command has airborne bombers and aircraft deployed all around the world. Additionally, there are plans for some very novel secret deployment locations for Blue Streak. C.) As said, the Queen isn’t just a figurehead commander-in-chief. She did serve in the Second World War, as in @. There has also been a mention somewhere, I believe, of King George VI personally commanding the Army in the field in Ardennes Offensive of 1944. D.) Historically, PALs were only just being contemplated by the USA at this point. Britain never used them, with gravity bombs deployed on aircraft being secured simply by what amounted to a bicycle lock. Thor IRBMs could be fired independently with a few hits with a wrench. As such, security is supplied by vetting, special geas spells and trusting chaps who went to the right schools.
OK thanks for the background on the Soviet war especially and its wider impact.
With b) looking forward to seeing what develops.
For d) it sounds like its no PAL's yet so they might still come along. Of course "trusting chaps who went to the right schools" worked so well with British intelligence so that's a bit worrying. 
Steve
PS Checked the latin and comes from a very nasty time but probably reasonably approriate if someone has launched a nuclear strike against you. - For those not in the know see Caedite_eos. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 20, 2020 12:15:16 GMT
Steve
I can't see how the use of PALs would come about here anytime soon. This is still the era of Chrome Dome and very high level alert forces, without a skerrick of detente in sight.
My inference in the 'chaps who went to the right schools' worked, I see. British intelligence has been a bit more successful in rooting out the Soviet influence, but the overall of it not being a proper basis for trust remains.
I'm not sure whether I've mentioned it here previously, but, in addition to the Anglo-Soviet War, there is also the matter of Edward, Prince of Wales being shot by a communist in 1919, which leads to his early death in 1929 from tuberculosis. This combination certainly makes communism less acceptable in polite society.
Simon
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 20, 2020 16:13:46 GMT
Naturally. The role of the monarch in Dark Earth Britain is a lot more powerful in actual terms. The lack of the English Civil War lead to a gradual transfer of some powers from the Crown to the Crown in Parliament. She holds very broad discretionary powers, both reigning and ruling to a certain extent. So Cromwell kept his head and no Glorious Revolution i assume. |
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Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2020 0:41:35 GMT
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 21, 2020 8:20:05 GMT
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Post by simon darkshade on May 21, 2020 9:29:39 GMT
Quite alright; it has been a couple of years since that was posted, so it never hurts to point out what is existent.
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could be very dangerous given the much greater number of nuclear weapons about and also powers with such weapons. It only needs one renegade, lunatic or misunderstanding or a weapon falling into the wrong hands and the result could be very nasty indeed. Is this lack only in Britain or in all the major nuclear powers? Point b) is a relatively low probability factor but this is a hell of a risk.