James G
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Post by James G on Jul 9, 2019 18:17:45 GMT
During the war with Spain, American naval forces engaged in a stand off with Germany's Pacific Squadron in Manila Bay. The US Navy call the German's bluff and it worked.
Previously, Germany had urged Europe to stand united against America against Spain but got nowhere.
There seems to have been a desire, but not a determined intent, for the Kaiser to do something. He backed down though.
What if he didn't? What if he stood his ground and had Germany side with Spain and fight the US too?
Does Germany suffer a defeat on the magnitude that Spain did? What does Britain do?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 9, 2019 18:34:15 GMT
During the war with Spain, American naval forces engaged in a stand off with Germany's Pacific Squadron in Manila Bay. The US Navy call the German's bluff and it worked. Previously, Germany had urged Europe to stand united against America against Spain but got nowhere. There seems to have been a desire, but not a determined intent, for the Kaiser to do something. He backed down though. What if he didn't? What if he stood his ground and had Germany side with Spain and fight the US too? Does Germany suffer a defeat on the magnitude that Spain did? What does Britain do? It might result in this: Under the Iron Cross: What if Germany ruled the Philippines, but that is without the war part, also i do not know hoe the United States can fight both Germany and Spain at the same time, but maybe as gratitude Spain allows Germany to buy both the Philippines and Guam while keeping Cuba and Porto Rico.  Also i think the Germans might implement Plan I as can be read here: The German plan to invade America before World War I |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 9, 2019 21:32:56 GMT
Late here now so no time to dig up details but the German fleet was still pretty small at this point. It was only about this time that Tirpitz became Naval Secretary and started the massive build-up of the German fleet from a small regional one to a force that ultimately threatened - or tried to - Britain. As such other than the forces already in place in the Far East I'm not sure what they could deploy to any combat theatre in time. The US, although the Panama Canal does't exist yet, should be able to resupply its forces in that region easier than the Germans. Definitely so if terms of blocking any German moves to support the Spanish in the Caribbean.
A lot would depend on the level and timing of the German intervention. If its only during the US attack on the Philippines wasn't that near the end of the conflict so Cuba and possibly also Puerto Rico were already lost and hence aren't available as bases. If German forces could get there earlier the nasty threat might be some German army units to boost the Spanish, which could be very costly for the US invading forces, although a lot would depend on how long such forces could be supplied there.
Doubt that there would be combat in the Europe or African regions unless another European powers gets involved but at this stage I'm not sure who would. Britain wouldn't like an extension of the war disrupting world trade but would be unlikely to do other than possibly offer to mediate. France is isolated at this point so is unlikely to risk a war with Germany without support but would be happy to see German forces and resources tied up in even a relatively limited war. There is the possibility, depending on the result that France might also seek some alliance with the US post-war but I suspect the US would prefer staying isolationist unless the conflict with Germany goes badly for it, which I think is unlikely.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 10, 2019 3:15:05 GMT
Late here now so no time to dig up details but the German fleet was still pretty small at this point. It was only about this time that Tirpitz became Naval Secretary and started the massive build-up of the German fleet from a small regional one to a force that ultimately threatened - or tried to - Britain. As such other than the forces already in place in the Far East I'm not sure what they could deploy to any combat theatre in time. The US, although the Panama Canal does't exist yet, should be able to resupply its forces in that region easier than the Germans. Definitely so if terms of blocking any German moves to support the Spanish in the Caribbean.
A lot would depend on the level and timing of the German intervention. If its only during the US attack on the Philippines wasn't that near the end of the conflict so Cuba and possibly also Puerto Rico were already lost and hence aren't available as bases. If German forces could get there earlier the nasty threat might be some German army units to boost the Spanish, which could be very costly for the US invading forces, although a lot would depend on how long such forces could be supplied there.
Doubt that there would be combat in the Europe or African regions unless another European powers gets involved but at this stage I'm not sure who would. Britain wouldn't like an extension of the war disrupting world trade but would be unlikely to do other than possibly offer to mediate. France is isolated at this point so is unlikely to risk a war with Germany without support but would be happy to see German forces and resources tied up in even a relatively limited war. There is the possibility, depending on the result that France might also seek some alliance with the US post-war but I suspect the US would prefer staying isolationist unless the conflict with Germany goes badly for it, which I think is unlikely.
But still, a German-Spanish alliance is not something the United States needs at this point. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 10, 2019 8:37:49 GMT
Late here now so no time to dig up details but the German fleet was still pretty small at this point. It was only about this time that Tirpitz became Naval Secretary and started the massive build-up of the German fleet from a small regional one to a force that ultimately threatened - or tried to - Britain. As such other than the forces already in place in the Far East I'm not sure what they could deploy to any combat theatre in time. The US, although the Panama Canal does't exist yet, should be able to resupply its forces in that region easier than the Germans. Definitely so if terms of blocking any German moves to support the Spanish in the Caribbean.
A lot would depend on the level and timing of the German intervention. If its only during the US attack on the Philippines wasn't that near the end of the conflict so Cuba and possibly also Puerto Rico were already lost and hence aren't available as bases. If German forces could get there earlier the nasty threat might be some German army units to boost the Spanish, which could be very costly for the US invading forces, although a lot would depend on how long such forces could be supplied there.
Doubt that there would be combat in the Europe or African regions unless another European powers gets involved but at this stage I'm not sure who would. Britain wouldn't like an extension of the war disrupting world trade but would be unlikely to do other than possibly offer to mediate. France is isolated at this point so is unlikely to risk a war with Germany without support but would be happy to see German forces and resources tied up in even a relatively limited war. There is the possibility, depending on the result that France might also seek some alliance with the US post-war but I suspect the US would prefer staying isolationist unless the conflict with Germany goes badly for it, which I think is unlikely.
But still, a German-Spanish alliance is not something the United States needs at this point.
It wouldn't be good for either side if it led to a prolonged conflict that would probably cause a lot of destruction in some regions without changing a massive amount. In the longer term the big issue would be the impact on the US politically. Does it sink back into a [probably heavily for it] armed isolationism or become more diplomatically involved in the rest of the world?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 10, 2019 14:58:40 GMT
But still, a German-Spanish alliance is not something the United States needs at this point. It wouldn't be good for either side if it led to a prolonged conflict that would probably cause a lot of destruction in some regions without changing a massive amount. In the longer term the big issue would be the impact on the US politically. Does it sink back into a [probably heavily for it] armed isolationism or become more diplomatically involved in the rest of the world?
So did some checking and in 1989 the Imperial German Navy had available to use in a war against the United States was: Pre-dreadnought battleshipsKaiser Friedrich III-class battleship
SMS Kaiser Friedrich III SMS Kaiser Wilhelm II, under construction at the Kaiserliche Werft Wilhelmshaven. SMS Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse, under construction at Germaniawerft, Kiel. SMS Kaiser Karl der Grosse, under construction at Blohm & Voss, Hamburg. SMS Kaiser Barbarossa, under construction at the Schichau-Werke in Dazing. Brandenburg-class battleship
SMS Brandenburg SMS Kurfürst Friedrich Wilhelm SMS Weissenburg SMS Wörth Armored cruisers
Fürst Bismarck-class armored cruisers
SMS Fürst Bismarck Prinz Heinrich-class armored cruisers
SMS Prinz Heinrich, under construction at the Kaiserliche Werft, Kiel. Light cruisers
Hela-class light cruisers
SMS Hela Gazelle-class light cruiser
SMS Gazelle SMS Niobe SMS Nymphe SMS Thetis SMS Ariadne SMS Amazone, under construction at Germaniawerft, Kiel. Protected cruisersKaiserin Augusta-class protected cruisers
SMS Kaiserin Augusta Victoria Louise-class protected cruisers
SMS Victoria Louise SMS Hertha SMS Freya SMS Vineta SMS Hansa, under construction at Stettiner Maschinenbau AG Vulcan,Stettin. IroncladKaiser-class ironclad
SMS Kaiser SMS Deutschland Sachsen -class ironclad
SMS Sachsen SMS Bayern SMS Württemberg SMS Baden Coast defense ship
Oldenburg class coast defense ship
SMS Oldenburg Siegfried-class coastal defense ship
SMS Siegfried SMS Beowulf SMS Frithjof SMS Heimdall SMS Hildebrand SMS Hagen Odin-class coastal defense ship
SMS Odin SMS Ägir Aviso
Wacht-class avisos
SMS Wacht SMS Jagd Greif-class aviso
SMS Greif Blitz-class aviso
SMS Blitz SMS Pfeil Torpedo Boot
D 9-class torpedo boat
SMS D 9 D 10-class torpedo boat
SMS D 10 S90-class torpedo boat
SMS S90, under construction at the Schichau-Werke in Dazing. SMS S91, under construction at the Schichau-Werke in Dazing. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 10, 2019 15:58:54 GMT
All
I was wrong on the dates with the attack on the Philippines starting with a naval battle on 1-5-1898, in which the US destroyed the Spanish fleet there and seized Manlia Bay, which was important as they had no base facilities closer than Hawaii. [They had been operating from Hong Kong prior to the war but had to leave it once war started as Britain remained neutral]. The US force consisted of 4 protected cruisers - Olympia, Baltimore, Raleigh and Boston, two gunboats Concord and Petrel and a revenue cutter McCulloch see US Asiatic_Squadron Philippines war.
After the battle warships from several nations arrived in Manila Bay and there was tension between the US and Germans, who were alledgely landing supplies for the Spanish among other things, see Spanish_American_War_Philippines. This reports the German squadron had 8 ships but gives no details. It also says that the US send 11,000 troops to the islands as well as supported Philippino rebels until the latter were alienated by the US refusal to let them enter Manila after that was captured at the end of the conflict in the islands.
As such it might depend on under what circumstances the Germans and US went to war, the strength of the German squadron at Manila and the exact date. From the list Lordroel supplied I doubt there were any pre-dread BBs there and Germany only has one armoured cruiser so I suspect the force would be based around a number of either protected or light cruisers. However its relative strength and abilities compared to the American one I can't say.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 10, 2019 16:27:43 GMT
All I was wrong on the dates with the attack on the Philippines starting with a naval battle on 1-5-1898, in which the US destroyed the Spanish fleet there and seized Manlia Bay, which was important as they had no base facilities closer than Hawaii. [They had been operating from Hong Kong prior to the war but had to leave it once war started as Britain remained neutral]. The US force consisted of 4 protected cruisers - Olympia, Baltimore, Raleigh and Boston, two gunboats Concord and Petrel and a revenue cutter McCulloch see US Asiatic_Squadron Philippines war. After the battle warships from several nations arrived in Manila Bay and there was tension between the US and Germans, who were alledgely landing supplies for the Spanish among other things, see Spanish_American_War_Philippines. This reports the German squadron had 8 ships but gives no details. It also says that the US send 11,000 troops to the islands as well as supported Philippino rebels until the latter were alienated by the US refusal to let them enter Manila after that was captured at the end of the conflict in the islands. As such it might depend on under what circumstances the Germans and US went to war, the strength of the German squadron at Manila and the exact date. From the list Lordroel supplied I doubt there were any pre-dread BBs there and Germany only has one armoured cruiser so I suspect the force would be based around a number of either protected or light cruisers. However its relative strength and abilities compared to the American one I can't say.
Steve
8 German ships, looking at what they had in 1899, that is a large number of their big ships they have there stevep , only the 5 big battleships are most likely still in Germany. I can checking Kaiser-class ironclad SMS Kaiser Wikipedia page, identify 5 ships that where in Manila Bay: In May 1898, Diederichs sent Kaiser to Nagasaki for periodic maintenance. The Spanish–American War, which saw action in the Philippines at the Battle of Manila Bay, necessitated a German naval presence in the area to protect German nationals. Kaiser was still in Nagasaki undergoing repairs, so Diederichs ordered her and Prinzess Wilhelm, also in dock for maintenance, to meet him in Manila as soon as was possible. Crew transfers during the repair process necessitated Irene and Cormoran to meet in Manila as well; this concentration of five warships in the Philippines caused a serious crisis with the American Navy
SMS Kaiser SMS Irene SMS Cormoran SMS Kaiserin Augusta SMS Prinzess Wilhelm. The 3 others Germans ship you mention steve manly in Chinese waters as according to SMS Deutschland Wikipedia page
Prince Heinrich took the two ships on a tour of Asia, culminating in a state visit to Peking in April. While most of the Squadron went to the Philippines to safeguard German interests during the Spanish–American War in the summer of 1898, Deutschland, Gefion, and Irene remained in Chinese waters.
SMS Deutschland SMS Gefion SMS Irene |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 10, 2019 19:05:42 GMT
Lordroel So that means the 8 ships would be the Ironclads - SMS Kaiser, SMS Deutschland - Kaiser-class_ironclad, built in London, entered service in 1875 Protected cruisers - SMS Kaiserin Augusta, Kaiserin_Augusta class - only one in this class, completed Nov 1892 SMS Irene & SMS Prinzess Wilhelm, SMS_Irene class - 2 ships in class, 1st completed May 1888 Unprotected cruisers - SMS Cormoran - Bussard-class_cruiser - one of 6 this commisioned in 1893 SMS Gefion - SMS_Gefion class - last of this type built, completed June 1895.
+ one other as you had SMS Irene entered tiwce on the list. Suspect this would be another 'unprotected' cruiser since they seem to have been designed for colonial service.
Sounds like the German fleet would be significantly more powerful than the US squadron so if it came to a fight, all other things being equal, which they might well not be, their likely to defeat the US forces. It would also depend on the date of the conflict as to what US ground forces might be already in the Philippines although if quite early on this might be prevented. This would also prevent the OTL US occupation of Guam which was done by a ship from the US Asiatic fleet. At least unless the USN is able and willing to send other ships from the Pacific coast to the region.
As such it would depend on the circumstances but it seems likely that if conflict came quickly the Philippines and probably Guam wouldn't have ended up in US hands. One possibility of course is that the rebels still win independence in which case they might make an alliance with the US or possibly someone else but if Germany got involved they might feel politically committed to securing control of the islands either for their allies Spain - such an alliance would worry France - or if they ended up buying the islands from the Philippines. Given that the Germans and Americans both had experience of repressing local people and the US did so OTL to the Filipino's OTL whereas the Germans could be even more brutal - as Namibia showed - I suspect they would succeed in suppressing local resistance in this case. James has raised an interesting point here.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 11, 2019 14:49:33 GMT
one other as you had SMS Irene entered tiwce on the list. Suspect this would be another 'unprotected' cruiser since they seem to have been designed for colonial service. , according to SMS Irene Wikipedia article: During the Spanish–American War in 1898, Irene steamed to Manila in the Philippines in the aftermath of the Battle of Manila Bay; she arrived in the harbor on 6 May. By 27 June, Irene had been joined by several other German warships, including Kaiserin Augusta, Diederichs's flagship. On the 27th, Irene was steaming into Manila Bay when she was stopped by the American revenue cutter Hugh McCulloch. On 5 July, Diederichs dispatched Irene to survey Subic Bay and to evacuate any German nationals in the area that were threatened by Filipino insurgents. While steaming off Isla Grande, Irene encountered the rebel ship Companie de Filipinas, which was threatening the Spanish garrison at Isla Grande. The rebel commander came aboard Irene to inform her captain of his activities; Obenheimer informed him that any act of war committed under the rebel flag was an act of piracy under international law. The rebels therefore agreed to return to port. Obenheimer inspected both the Spanish garrison on the island and the nearby rebel base in Olongapo. After unsuccessfully searching for German nationals in the area, Irene evacuated the noncombatants on Isla Grande on 7 July; while steaming out of Subic Bay, Irene encountered the American warships Raleigh and Concord without issue.
Thus we can be fairly sure the Irene was part of the 5 German ships at Manila Bay, checking more i think it is SMS Arcona that could be the ship that is part of the 3 German ships but not 100 % sure. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 12, 2019 8:04:31 GMT
one other as you had SMS Irene entered tiwce on the list. Suspect this would be another 'unprotected' cruiser since they seem to have been designed for colonial service. , according to SMS Irene Wikipedia article: During the Spanish–American War in 1898, Irene steamed to Manila in the Philippines in the aftermath of the Battle of Manila Bay; she arrived in the harbor on 6 May. By 27 June, Irene had been joined by several other German warships, including Kaiserin Augusta, Diederichs's flagship. On the 27th, Irene was steaming into Manila Bay when she was stopped by the American revenue cutter Hugh McCulloch. On 5 July, Diederichs dispatched Irene to survey Subic Bay and to evacuate any German nationals in the area that were threatened by Filipino insurgents. While steaming off Isla Grande, Irene encountered the rebel ship Companie de Filipinas, which was threatening the Spanish garrison at Isla Grande. The rebel commander came aboard Irene to inform her captain of his activities; Obenheimer informed him that any act of war committed under the rebel flag was an act of piracy under international law. The rebels therefore agreed to return to port. Obenheimer inspected both the Spanish garrison on the island and the nearby rebel base in Olongapo. After unsuccessfully searching for German nationals in the area, Irene evacuated the noncombatants on Isla Grande on 7 July; while steaming out of Subic Bay, Irene encountered the American warships Raleigh and Concord without issue.
Thus we can be fairly sure the Irene was part of the 5 German ships at Manila Bay, checking more i think it is SMS Arcona that could be the ship that is part of the 3 German ships but not 100 % sure.
OK thanks. The Arcona is a corvette which is smaller than a cruiser and she's somewhat older being completed in Dec 1886 but still has a substantial armament of 10x5.9" guns, very large for its size. Which could mean she's vulnerable to damage but still a potential threat for the US. That visit to Isla Grande could be what the US viewed as 'supplying the Spanish garrison' or possibly some supply of either military or civilian nature was delivered.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 12, 2019 9:19:23 GMT
stevep , according to SMS Irene Wikipedia article: During the Spanish–American War in 1898, Irene steamed to Manila in the Philippines in the aftermath of the Battle of Manila Bay; she arrived in the harbor on 6 May. By 27 June, Irene had been joined by several other German warships, including Kaiserin Augusta, Diederichs's flagship. On the 27th, Irene was steaming into Manila Bay when she was stopped by the American revenue cutter Hugh McCulloch. On 5 July, Diederichs dispatched Irene to survey Subic Bay and to evacuate any German nationals in the area that were threatened by Filipino insurgents. While steaming off Isla Grande, Irene encountered the rebel ship Companie de Filipinas, which was threatening the Spanish garrison at Isla Grande. The rebel commander came aboard Irene to inform her captain of his activities; Obenheimer informed him that any act of war committed under the rebel flag was an act of piracy under international law. The rebels therefore agreed to return to port. Obenheimer inspected both the Spanish garrison on the island and the nearby rebel base in Olongapo. After unsuccessfully searching for German nationals in the area, Irene evacuated the noncombatants on Isla Grande on 7 July; while steaming out of Subic Bay, Irene encountered the American warships Raleigh and Concord without issue.
Thus we can be fairly sure the Irene was part of the 5 German ships at Manila Bay, checking more i think it is SMS Arcona that could be the ship that is part of the 3 German ships but not 100 % sure. OK thanks. The Arcona is a corvette which is smaller than a cruiser and she's somewhat older being completed in Dec 1886 but still has a substantial armament of 10x5.9" guns, very large for its size. Which could mean she's vulnerable to damage but still a potential threat for the US. That visit to Isla Grande could be what the US viewed as 'supplying the Spanish garrison' or possibly some supply of either military or civilian nature was delivered.
So you are saying that those 5 German ship can easily defeat these ( The Battle of Manila Bay (Cavite): USS OLYMPIA - (5870 tons, four 8" guns, ten 5" guns, 21 secondary rapid fire guns, six torpedo tubes, 381 men) USS BALTIMORE - (4413 tons, four 8" guns, six 6" guns, 8 secondary rapid fire guns, 328 men) USS RALEIGH - (3213 tons, one 6" gun, two 5" guns, 12 secondary rapid fire guns, 2 torpedoes, 252 men) USS BOSTON - (3000 tons, two 8" guns, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 230 men) USS CONCORD - (1710 tons, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 155 men) USS PETREL - (892 tons, four 6" guns, 3secondary rapid fire guns, 110 men) |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 12, 2019 10:57:41 GMT
OK thanks. The Arcona is a corvette which is smaller than a cruiser and she's somewhat older being completed in Dec 1886 but still has a substantial armament of 10x5.9" guns, very large for its size. Which could mean she's vulnerable to damage but still a potential threat for the US. That visit to Isla Grande could be what the US viewed as 'supplying the Spanish garrison' or possibly some supply of either military or civilian nature was delivered.
So you are saying that those 5 German ship can easily defeat these ( The Battle of Manila Bay (Cavite): USS OLYMPIA - (5870 tons, four 8" guns, ten 5" guns, 21 secondary rapid fire guns, six torpedo tubes, 381 men) USS BALTIMORE - (4413 tons, four 8" guns, six 6" guns, 8 secondary rapid fire guns, 328 men) USS RALEIGH - (3213 tons, one 6" gun, two 5" guns, 12 secondary rapid fire guns, 2 torpedoes, 252 men) USS BOSTON - (3000 tons, two 8" guns, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 230 men) USS CONCORD - (1710 tons, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 155 men) USS PETREL - (892 tons, four 6" guns, 3secondary rapid fire guns, 110 men)
Dug up some details of the German ships and also a bit more on the US ones.
SMS Kaiser - (commissioned 1875 , 7645 tons, 14.6kts, eight 15 cm (5.9 in) and eight 8.8 cm (3.5 in) guns ,600 men) - this was after a reconstruction as an armoured cruiser in the early 1890's but she remained slow.
SMS Irene - (commissioned 1888, 5027 tons, 18kts, 14 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns, 6 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) revolving cannon, 3 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes ,365 men)
SMS Cormoran - (commissioned 1892, 15.5kt, 8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 5 × revolver cannon, 2 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes, 161 crew)
SMS Kaiserin Augusta - (commissioned 1892, 6318 tons, 21kts, 4 × 15 cm (5.9 in) SK L/40 guns, 8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 8 × 8.8 cm (3.5 in) SK L/30 guns, 5 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes, 430 men)
SMS Prinzess Wilhelm. - sister of SMS Irene
Remaining in Chinese waters: SMS Deutschland - sister of SMS Kaiser similarly reconstructed.
SMS Gefion - (commissioned 1895, 4275 tons, 19.5kts, 10 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 6 × 5 cm SK L/40 guns, 2 × 45 cm torpedo tubes ,302 men)
SMS Arcona - (commissioned 1896, 14.1kts, 10 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns, 2 × 8.7 cm (3.4 in) guns, 6 × 37 mm (1.5 in) Hotchkiss revolver cannon ,282 men)
Compared with USS OLYMPIA - (5870 tons, four 8" guns, ten 5" guns, 21 secondary rapid fire guns, six torpedo tubes, 381 men) - commissioned 1895*, 21.7kts, protected cruiser - 6 × 17.7 in (450 mm) above-surface torpedo tubes, firing Whitehead Mark 1 torpedoes
USS BALTIMORE - (4413 tons, four 8" guns, six 6" guns, 8 secondary rapid fire guns, 328 men) - commissioned 1890, 19kts, protected cruiser.
USS RALEIGH - (3213 tons, one 6" gun, two 5" guns, 12 secondary rapid fire guns, 2 torpedoes, 252 men) - commissioned 1894, 19kts, protected cruiser
USS BOSTON - (3000 tons, two 8" guns, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 230 men) - commissioned 1887, 13kts, protected cruiser
USS CONCORD - (1710 tons, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 155 men) - commissioned 1891, 16.8kts, 3rd class cruiser/gunboat.
USS PETREL - (892 tons, four 6" guns, 3secondary rapid fire guns, 110 men) - commissioned 1889, 11.4kt, 4th class gunboat.
* Olympia was ordered as early as 1888 as an earlier design for a large fast raiding cruiser but doctrine for cruisers changed to units to support the fleet so hence delayed in construction.
I think a lot would depend on the circumstances. Are the other three German ships pulled in from the China station? How much warning does both sides have? [Doubt either would launch a sneak attack but one side could be caught at least partially by surprise or you could see a early clash between some ships then a more general action between those left]. How good is the condition of the ships? Is it in a closed waterway such as Manila Bay or open water. The US squadron has recently seen action which would have given them some useful experience but did they consume a lot of their munitions which might not yet have been replaced? Also weather and simple luck can play a large part.
Other than the Olympia none of the US ships have torpedoes but 4 - or 5 if all the German ships are then of the German ones do have them. Not sure how effective early torpedoes were at this stage but most ships have little/no underwater protection so even a single hit could be fatal.
The Kaiser [and Deutschland if present] are elderly but have been reconstructed and probably have more protection but are slower than most of the other ships.
I mote that at least a couple of USN ships were decommissioned once or more in the preceding years which probably relates to manpower/budgetary restrictions on them. This would mean less wear and tear on the ships but could mean their crews are a bit less experienced. Although how many of the German crews were conscripts or was the relatively small navy largely long service regulars?
It could go either way as closer than I was initially thinking. Suspect the Germans would have the edge in a battle but could be wrong.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 12, 2019 11:11:02 GMT
So you are saying that those 5 German ship can easily defeat these ( The Battle of Manila Bay (Cavite): USS OLYMPIA - (5870 tons, four 8" guns, ten 5" guns, 21 secondary rapid fire guns, six torpedo tubes, 381 men) USS BALTIMORE - (4413 tons, four 8" guns, six 6" guns, 8 secondary rapid fire guns, 328 men) USS RALEIGH - (3213 tons, one 6" gun, two 5" guns, 12 secondary rapid fire guns, 2 torpedoes, 252 men) USS BOSTON - (3000 tons, two 8" guns, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 230 men) USS CONCORD - (1710 tons, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 155 men) USS PETREL - (892 tons, four 6" guns, 3secondary rapid fire guns, 110 men) Dug up some details of the German ships and also a bit more on the US ones.
SMS Kaiser - (commissioned 1875 , 7645 tons, 14.6kts, eight 15 cm (5.9 in) and eight 8.8 cm (3.5 in) guns ,600 men) - this was after a reconstruction as an armoured cruiser in the early 1890's but she remained slow.
SMS Irene - (commissioned 1888, 5027 tons, 18kts, 14 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns, 6 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) revolving cannon, 3 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes ,365 men)
SMS Cormoran - (commissioned 1892, 15.5kt, 8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 5 × revolver cannon, 2 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes, 161 crew)
SMS Kaiserin Augusta - (commissioned 1892, 6318 tons, 21kts, 4 × 15 cm (5.9 in) SK L/40 guns, 8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 8 × 8.8 cm (3.5 in) SK L/30 guns, 5 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes, 430 men)
SMS Prinzess Wilhelm. - sister of SMS Irene
Remaining in Chinese waters: SMS Deutschland - sister of SMS Kaiser similarly reconstructed.
SMS Gefion - (commissioned 1895, 4275 tons, 19.5kts, 10 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 6 × 5 cm SK L/40 guns, 2 × 45 cm torpedo tubes ,302 men)
SMS Arcona - (commissioned 1896, 14.1kts, 10 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns, 2 × 8.7 cm (3.4 in) guns, 6 × 37 mm (1.5 in) Hotchkiss revolver cannon ,282 men)
Compared with USS OLYMPIA - (5870 tons, four 8" guns, ten 5" guns, 21 secondary rapid fire guns, six torpedo tubes, 381 men) - commissioned 1895*, 21.7kts, protected cruiser - 6 × 17.7 in (450 mm) above-surface torpedo tubes, firing Whitehead Mark 1 torpedoes
USS BALTIMORE - (4413 tons, four 8" guns, six 6" guns, 8 secondary rapid fire guns, 328 men) - commissioned 1890, 19kts, protected cruiser.
USS RALEIGH - (3213 tons, one 6" gun, two 5" guns, 12 secondary rapid fire guns, 2 torpedoes, 252 men) - commissioned 1894, 19kts, protected cruiser
USS BOSTON - (3000 tons, two 8" guns, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 230 men) - commissioned 1887, 13kts, protected cruiser
USS CONCORD - (1710 tons, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 155 men) - commissioned 1891, 16.8kts, 3rd class cruiser/gunboat.
USS PETREL - (892 tons, four 6" guns, 3secondary rapid fire guns, 110 men) - commissioned 1889, 11.4kt, 4th class gunboat. * Olympia was ordered as early as 1888 as an earlier design for a large fast raiding cruiser but doctrine for cruisers changed to units to support the fleet so hence delayed in construction.
I think a lot would depend on the circumstances. Are the other three German ships pulled in from the China station? How much warning does both sides have? [Doubt either would launch a sneak attack but one side could be caught at least partially by surprise or you could see a early clash between some ships then a more general action between those left]. How good is the condition of the ships? Is it in a closed waterway such as Manila Bay or open water. The US squadron has recently seen action which would have given them some useful experience but did they consume a lot of their munitions which might not yet have been replaced? Also weather and simple luck can play a large part.
Other than the Olympia none of the US ships have torpedoes but 4 - or 5 if all the German ships are then of the German ones do have them. Not sure how effective early torpedoes were at this stage but most ships have little/no underwater protection so even a single hit could be fatal.
The Kaiser [and Deutschland if present] are elderly but have been reconstructed and probably have more protection but are slower than most of the other ships.
I mote that at least a couple of USN ships were decommissioned once or more in the preceding years which probably relates to manpower/budgetary restrictions on them. This would mean less wear and tear on the ships but could mean their crews are a bit less experienced. Although how many of the German crews were conscripts or was the relatively small navy largely long service regulars?
It could go either way as closer than I was initially thinking. Suspect the Germans would have the edge in a battle but could be wrong.
Well the Germans could win, but i have found not so far any evidence of whether the US hand landed troops already, because they only way for the Germans to remove those troops is to send their own from Germany, and as the United Kingdom as it always does, will close the Suez Canal for any Waring party, that means a long trip around Africa in order to reach the Philippines. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,857
Likes: 13,238
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Post by stevep on Jul 12, 2019 16:03:58 GMT
Dug up some details of the German ships and also a bit more on the US ones.
SMS Kaiser - (commissioned 1875 , 7645 tons, 14.6kts, eight 15 cm (5.9 in) and eight 8.8 cm (3.5 in) guns ,600 men) - this was after a reconstruction as an armoured cruiser in the early 1890's but she remained slow.
SMS Irene - (commissioned 1888, 5027 tons, 18kts, 14 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns, 6 × 3.7 cm (1.5 in) revolving cannon, 3 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes ,365 men)
SMS Cormoran - (commissioned 1892, 15.5kt, 8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 5 × revolver cannon, 2 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes, 161 crew)
SMS Kaiserin Augusta - (commissioned 1892, 6318 tons, 21kts, 4 × 15 cm (5.9 in) SK L/40 guns, 8 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 8 × 8.8 cm (3.5 in) SK L/30 guns, 5 × 35 cm (14 in) torpedo tubes, 430 men)
SMS Prinzess Wilhelm. - sister of SMS Irene
Remaining in Chinese waters: SMS Deutschland - sister of SMS Kaiser similarly reconstructed.
SMS Gefion - (commissioned 1895, 4275 tons, 19.5kts, 10 × 10.5 cm (4.1 in) SK L/35 guns, 6 × 5 cm SK L/40 guns, 2 × 45 cm torpedo tubes ,302 men)
SMS Arcona - (commissioned 1896, 14.1kts, 10 × 15 cm (5.9 in) guns, 2 × 8.7 cm (3.4 in) guns, 6 × 37 mm (1.5 in) Hotchkiss revolver cannon ,282 men)
Compared with USS OLYMPIA - (5870 tons, four 8" guns, ten 5" guns, 21 secondary rapid fire guns, six torpedo tubes, 381 men) - commissioned 1895*, 21.7kts, protected cruiser - 6 × 17.7 in (450 mm) above-surface torpedo tubes, firing Whitehead Mark 1 torpedoes
USS BALTIMORE - (4413 tons, four 8" guns, six 6" guns, 8 secondary rapid fire guns, 328 men) - commissioned 1890, 19kts, protected cruiser.
USS RALEIGH - (3213 tons, one 6" gun, two 5" guns, 12 secondary rapid fire guns, 2 torpedoes, 252 men) - commissioned 1894, 19kts, protected cruiser
USS BOSTON - (3000 tons, two 8" guns, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 230 men) - commissioned 1887, 13kts, protected cruiser
USS CONCORD - (1710 tons, six 6" guns, 6 secondary rapid fire guns, 155 men) - commissioned 1891, 16.8kts, 3rd class cruiser/gunboat.
USS PETREL - (892 tons, four 6" guns, 3secondary rapid fire guns, 110 men) - commissioned 1889, 11.4kt, 4th class gunboat. * Olympia was ordered as early as 1888 as an earlier design for a large fast raiding cruiser but doctrine for cruisers changed to units to support the fleet so hence delayed in construction.
I think a lot would depend on the circumstances. Are the other three German ships pulled in from the China station? How much warning does both sides have? [Doubt either would launch a sneak attack but one side could be caught at least partially by surprise or you could see a early clash between some ships then a more general action between those left]. How good is the condition of the ships? Is it in a closed waterway such as Manila Bay or open water. The US squadron has recently seen action which would have given them some useful experience but did they consume a lot of their munitions which might not yet have been replaced? Also weather and simple luck can play a large part.
Other than the Olympia none of the US ships have torpedoes but 4 - or 5 if all the German ships are then of the German ones do have them. Not sure how effective early torpedoes were at this stage but most ships have little/no underwater protection so even a single hit could be fatal.
The Kaiser [and Deutschland if present] are elderly but have been reconstructed and probably have more protection but are slower than most of the other ships.
I mote that at least a couple of USN ships were decommissioned once or more in the preceding years which probably relates to manpower/budgetary restrictions on them. This would mean less wear and tear on the ships but could mean their crews are a bit less experienced. Although how many of the German crews were conscripts or was the relatively small navy largely long service regulars?
It could go either way as closer than I was initially thinking. Suspect the Germans would have the edge in a battle but could be wrong.
Well the Germans could win, but i have found not so far any evidence of whether the US hand landed troops already, because they only way for the Germans to remove those troops is to send their own from Germany, and as the United Kingdom as it always does, will close the Suez Canal for any Waring party, that means a long trip around Africa in order to reach the Philippines.
If the Americans have landed troops and/or help the pro-independence leaders return to the islands German reinforcements would be necessary I suspect. Which would have a long way to go. As you say it would depend on how quickly the US landed forces compared with how soon Germany moves against them.
While they might do it on a case by case basis I'm not sure if Britain is required or would actually close the canal to a reinforcement mission. IIRC the prime reason the Russia Baltic fleet had to go the long way around in 1905 was because after the attack on the Dogger Bank trawlers public opinion was such that the the government decided to close the canal to the Russian fleet. Which rather implies that it wasn't an automatic action. Given the level of trade between Britain and the US and other links Britain might decide to do so anyway but I'm not certain it would be an automatic move, especially since Wilhelm II hadn't yet really got under the British skin or started his massive fleet expansion.
However even then it could be difficult. The Russians gained some assistance from France who was friendly to them. Germany has its E Africa colony and I think already part of New Guinea but nothing else in between and the latter probably doesn't have a lot of facilities. I suspect an outright military mission would be blocked from all but friendly ports so it could be quite a struggle for Germany to get anything there. Plus since they have already ditched the alliance with Russia and France is distinctly unfriendly they have to consider what happens if war was to break out with either of those powers, who have more powerful bases and fleets in E Asia.
In comparison the Pacific is large but the US is across the other side and already has de-facto control of Hawaii, although I don't think they have anything closer. Also they could probably send other ships either from the Pacific coast or if necessarily around Cape Horn, both militarily and carrying troops. Whereas the Germans can't afford to send too much from Europe.
Hence while its possible Germany could win a naval victory and especially if they acted quickly before US troops were landed that could significantly impact on the US ability in the short term to overrun the Philippines. However if the US was determined for a longer conflict it would have a good chance of winning in the end.
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