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Post by TheRomanSlayer on May 30, 2019 1:31:53 GMT
Today English has become the lingua franca of the world, though historically French was also used as a language of diplomacy.
With a PoD between 1500 and 1899, have German or Dutch (or a combination of those two) become the lingua franca of the world.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 30, 2019 10:32:28 GMT
Today English has become the lingua franca of the world, though historically French was also used as a language of diplomacy. With a PoD between 1500 and 1899, have German or Dutch (or a combination of those two) become the lingua franca of the world.
Interesting idea. For Germany you could see something like the Hapsburg's unify Germany a couple of centuries earlier than 1870 Prussia, which would probably also be larger as it would very likely include areas such as Bohemia. However that would be very difficult given the multitude of forces that would oppose such a move, both inside and outside Germany. Plus given the different cultures of the time it might be too autocratic to allow quick social, industrial and technological advances. Also since it would face potential opponents on all sides unless you end up with a greater German empire that occupies/controls virtually all of western and central Europe its likely to lose out to rivals in colonising locations outside Europe. In this world possibly Spanish might become the new lingua franca?
A later German unification, say roughly as OTL might avoid the increased militarism and the two world wars but by this time English, both because of the size and influence of the British empire and the developing identity and power of the US makes it very difficult to replace.
In terms of the Dutch they would really need to greatly shorten the war of independence with Spain, preferably also keeping most of the southern Netherlands [OTL Belgium] but also to avoid too much strain with either France or any German state(s) on their eastern border. Even if unsuccessful attacks from neighbours would distract resources. This as much as the successful rivalry [for Britain] with the latter was the primary reason for the Dutch being unable to develop into a markedly greater colonial power.
Possibly some sort of Anglo-Dutch union, which I think was suggested at times, but in which the Dutch part becomes dominant? This if lasting would remove the threat from England/Britain but the unified state would still face problems on its land borders, plus possibly a border with Scotland for the English element. You could see the Dutch possibly becoming the dominant power in India and N America along with keeping areas like Ceylon and S Africa and that might become the basis for Dutch to become the dominant world language.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on May 30, 2019 16:19:01 GMT
I wonder if you could somehow get either Dutch or German as hybridized and vocabulary-rich as OTL English along the way? I'm no linguist, hence why I bring up the question.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 30, 2019 23:06:58 GMT
I wonder if you could somehow get either Dutch or German as hybridized and vocabulary-rich as OTL English along the way? I'm no linguist, hence why I bring up the question.
I'm no linguist so I definitely couldn't give a meaningful answer to that. However if it has world wide interactions with other regions of the world your likely to get a lot of words and possibly ideas/types of terminology say coming across from different cultures.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on May 30, 2019 23:36:46 GMT
I wonder if you could somehow get either Dutch or German as hybridized and vocabulary-rich as OTL English along the way? I'm no linguist, hence why I bring up the question.
I'm no linguist so I definitely couldn't give a meaningful answer to that. However if it has world wide interactions with other regions of the world your likely to get a lot of words and possibly ideas/types of terminology say coming across from different cultures.
I'm guessing that even if neither language absorbed terminology from other tongues across the world, they'd still allow for the no-problem creation and usage of arbitrarily long compound words. This stands in contrast to OTL English, which is inconsistent between requiring hyphens, spaces and neither of the two.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 31, 2019 9:56:35 GMT
I'm no linguist so I definitely couldn't give a meaningful answer to that. However if it has world wide interactions with other regions of the world your likely to get a lot of words and possibly ideas/types of terminology say coming across from different cultures.
I'm guessing that even if neither language absorbed terminology from other tongues across the world, they'd still allow for the no-problem creation and usage of arbitrarily long compound words. This stands in contrast to OTL English, which is inconsistent between requiring hyphens, spaces and neither of the two.
I remember reading, in one of David Brin's Uplift novels the suggestion that English's inconsistency and illogical structure could lead to errors that might help in innovation. A couple of decades back now but think the basic idea was that if something was written down or expressed wrong occasionally it would by serendipity lead someone to say "that makes sense" in terms of presenting a new idea. Possibly a bit like how random genetic changes occasionally produce one that is beneficial and hence gets propagated among a specie.
Frankly I don't know enough about other languages, even fairly closely related ones such as Dutch and German to say if they could develop a similar flexibility.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 2, 2019 17:14:03 GMT
From what I heard, Dutch could be intelligible with a German dialect, Plattdeutsch. I'm wondering if Plattdeutsch (Low German) would have been the dominant dialect in Germany instead of High German.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jun 21, 2019 16:19:34 GMT
I know the PoD's temporal limits do not allow it, and technically speaking it won't be Standard German or Dutch but a different version of High German, but the AHC would otherwise be perfect for certain versions of a super-successful HRE/Carolingian Empire. Namely, the ones where the language of the Imperial court became the lingua franca of the empire, and the capital stayed in Aachen. ITTL the Carolingian Empire never broke up or it reunified for good after a relatively brief division (100-150 years at maximum, depending on the PoD). It gradually centralized at a sufficient level to be a functional state, even if its sheer size and diversity meant the system always kept a sizable federal component up to modern times. Its expansion and consolidation united Europe, the Mediterranean, and the Western world in political, cultural-linguistic, and religious terms. It absorbed southern Italy and Central Europe up to the outskirts of Russia, waged the Reconquista to a successful conclusion, and extended it to conquer North Africa.
It gradually assimilated the British Isles and Scandinavia by a mix of growing dynastic ties, imperial influence, and the occasional military intervention to put down particularist opponents of union. By pretty much the same means combined with strategic cooperation against the common Muslim and steppe nomad enemies, it got a closer and closer relationship with the Byzantine Empire up to political union and the rebirth of a bigger and stronger Roman Empire. Successful Roman wars against the Muslims kept Anatolia in Christian hands and led to conquest and forced assimilation of Egypt-Nubia, the Levant, and Mesopotamia. Islam suffered a decisive defeat and near-fatal collapse, losing pretty much all its core lands but Arabia and Persia. Waves of Muslim refugees fleeing Roman conquest and forced re-Christianization of North Africa and the Middle East helped Islam reinforce its grip on Central Asia and West Africa, but that was it. It was quite unlikely in these circumstances Islam would be in any condition to make serious inroads in the Indian subcontinent or the Malay archipelago, unless perhaps the aforementioned refugees turned out to be extremely successful as conquerors of India.
Success of the HRE sent Christianity on a development trajectory that kept it mostly united, preventing or reversing any equivalent of the Latin-Greek schism, the Calcedonian schism, and the Reformation, and letting the Church stay subservient to political authority. Heresies got suppressed or expelled beyond the Empire's borders. Mutual reinforcement of the ideals of Roman and Christian universalism made the notion of union of the Western world irresistible for members of its civilization and helped the empire ultimately recover from any crisis, much like it happened for China.
Imperial peace and unity significantly accelerated the recovery of Europe from the collapse of the First Roman Empire. Technological development enabled Roman Europe to progress into the Age of Exploration, global colonization, and eventually industrialization and the Information Age, just like OTL if somewhat earlier. Exploration of the Vinland route led to Roman discovery of the New World and colonization of huge swaths, in all likelihood the vast majority, of the lands that Europeans could easily conquer and comfortably settle, including the Americas, East Africa, Southern Africa, and Australasia.
Roman Europe successfully colonized and assimilated most if not all of those areas thanks to its vast superiority vs. native states in terms of technology, organization, resources, and population. A few areas here and there of relatively limited size and value might escape such a fate by becoming homelands for political-religious European dissidents, East Asian or West African colonizers, or the rare Amerindian culture that was able to bridge the gap with Eurasian ones. Successful independence movements of European colonies were theoretically possible but rather unlikely in practice since the power gap with the moterhland was too high and potential external support for separatist movements too scarce.
Early contact with Europe drove the sophisticated South Asian and East Asian civilization to modernize timely and successfully enough to avoid European colonization and remain in the same league as Roman Europe, even if the latter always stayed the alpha dog of the world and dominated global trade. West Africa and Central Africa likewise were spared colonization by looking too inhospitable to Europeans. The HRE became a multicontinental hyperpower that utterly dwarfed any other state and civilization in political, economic, military, and cultural terms, with a population of one-third of humanity.
As technological progress drove society down the road to modernity, the effects of mobile printing, mass public education, and the mass media gradually made the lingua franca of the HRE, originally the court language of the Imperial capital in Aachen, the native language of the overwhelming majority of its inhabitants. All the other Germanic, Latin, Slavic, Celtic, and Greek languages within the European core of the HRE suffered radical decline and marginalization during this process, mostly keeping only academic relevance. The non-European languages in the areas conquered by Roman Europe got nearly wiped out as a result of colonization. Even outside the HRE's borders, its global hegemony caused its national language to become the undisputed lingua franca of the world since the beginning of the modern age.
As it concerns fulfilling the AHC with a post-1500/pre-1900 PoD, it is relatively easy to fulfil in AH terms. Let the HRE/Germany centralize/unite sometime between the 16th century and the 19th century, the sooner the better, in a way that allows it to seize/keep control of all continental Germanic-speaking areas and/or all the areas traditionally claimed by the HRE. Expand such control to include all of Italy, Poland, and the Habsburg lands, and consolidate this resulting Mitteleuropa core to federal levels of integration. Use the resulting resources to win all the inevitable wars with the other European powers that oppose your rise to hegemony. Kick Britain out of the continent, push Russia back into its pre-1800 or better pre-1700 western borders, dismantle the Ottoman Empire, assimilate defeated France and Spain in your empire, turn the Balkans and the Eastern Mediterranean in a constellation of client states. Depending on the POD, either prevent the rise of the British Empire and replace it with the Germanic Empire, or dismantle it. Colonize and assimilate in your federal system all the valuable places that may be filled with European settlers, be content to exercise indirect control on the rest. Bask in the superpower hegemony these achievements would enable, and let the German Language naturally rise to the state of global lingua franca as the result.
Means may vary from the 16th century Habsburg winning the power struggle against France, the Ottoman Empire, and Germanic/Italian/Iberian particularists and taking a practical attitude to religion, to Austria and Prussia fusing in one state by dynastic means or making a power-sharing compromise to centralize the HRE/Germanic Confederation, to the 1848 Revolutions succeeding in a way that causes the rise of a German-led EU equivalent, to Bismarck completing his life's job by dismantling the Habsburg zombie, taking its choice bits, turning Italy and Hungary into loyal sidekicks and Russia into a semi-reliable ally by giving them the rest and supporting the Russians doing the same to the Ottoman terminal case, and his successors using the resulting power base to defeat France and Britain.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 23, 2019 21:12:51 GMT
Would a bloodier and deadlier 30YW result in more various minor German noble families becoming extinct be suitable for faster centralization of the HRE? The border gore that was the OTL HRE was she merging that was hard to manage, and I agree that centralization would be necessary. Having the HRE in its entirety become a colonial power would be more sensible than trying to expand into Poland, although an enlarged Germany + Netherlands may also expand and acquire the entirety of the eastern Baltic territories (alternatively, you could have Prussia conquer Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania proper and form a Baltenmark out of the potentially Germanized Baltic nations).
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jun 24, 2019 10:23:27 GMT
Would a bloodier and deadlier 30YW result in more various minor German noble families becoming extinct be suitable for faster centralization of the HRE? The border gore that was the OTL HRE was she merging that was hard to manage, and I agree that centralization would be necessary. Having the HRE in its entirety become a colonial power would be more sensible than trying to expand into Poland, although an enlarged Germany + Netherlands may also expand and acquire the entirety of the eastern Baltic territories (alternatively, you could have Prussia conquer Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania proper and form a Baltenmark out of the potentially Germanized Baltic nations). Well, the 30YW was so destructive to Germany that IMO a PoD that occurs before or during its period and is supposed to be beneficial to the German nation should avoid it or tone down its damage considerably, not make it even worse. I agree that in order to centralize the HRE some kind of military reckoning with the particularist German princes was in all likelihood necessary and inevitable, but it could (and for the purpose of this scenario should) be done with something much less devastating than the OTL conflict, and somewhat less tied to extreme religious antagonism. My tentative idea for this is to get a different kind of division of the Habsburg domains either before or after Charles V that keeps the Burgundian inheritance in the hands of the German branch and at the same time drives the German emperors to adopt a more pragmatic and tolerant policy toward the moderate wing of the Reformation, starting with Charles V himself. I agree that ruthless repression of the radical wing of the Reformation was necessary for any German emperor, given the violent anarchic extremism of the Anabaptists and the strong hostility of the Calvinists to royal power. However a compromise with Lutheranism that bargained religious tolerance for neutrality in the struggle between the centralizing emperors and the particularist princes was feasible and beneficial to both sides. A division of the Habsburg inheritance may take place either before Charles V, with a survival of Miguel de la Paz that ensures the unification of the three Iberian monarchies under the Aviz-Trastamara dynasty, or after him, with Charles making a different abdication settlement. Perhaps the former is better, so Charles can spend his entire reign focused on German issues and not have his religious policy tainted by the influence of militant Spanish Catholicism. In any case, Spain and the HRE should stay close allies against France and the Ottomans even if they get different monarchs and religious policies, but this seems relatively easy to accomplish, since they shared complementary strategic interests. They just need to make a sensible compromise settlement about Italy, but this does not seem hard to do. I am not sure in this regard if Milan should better go to Spain or to the HRE. Quite possibly, Habsburg HRE and Aviz Iberia may agree on a joint effort to shove a thorough reform of the Church down the throat of the kicking and screaming Popes which adequately deals with the issues that triggered the Reformation, transfers power from the Roman Curia to 'national' Churches, and lets the secular governments seize the excess wealth of the Church. This would enable the Emperor to take the lead of religious reform in Germany (not unlike what Henry VIII did in England) and meet the Lutherans mid-way. At the very least, the result of this Spanish-German strategic cooperation should ensure French expanionistic attempts are entirely frustrated (but if the allies can grab Burgundy and/or Provence, even better), the Ottomans stay out of Hungary (of course, the more they are kicked out of the Balkans, the better), and Barbary states piracy is crushed (if Spain can make a serious effort to conquer North Africa stick, even better). This should prevent the Dutch rebellion (ensuring a separate Dutch identity never arises and the Low Countries stay an integral part of Germany, like Bohemia-Moravia, Switzerland, and the lands beyond the Meuse) and grant the Habsburg a sufficient power base to crush the particularist princes in a earlier, shorter, and less destructive equivalent of the 30YW, ensuring success of a centralization reform of the HRE. Such a victory should enable the Habsburg to seize the lands of at least a few among the rebellious princes, such as Saxony, Brandenburg, and/or Brunswick-Luneburg (the more the better), and add them to their domain. It is probably unlikely that even a realistic degree of decisive Habsburg success would enable establishment of full-fledged Imperial absolutism. However, turning the HRE into a functional federal monarchy should be entirely feasible, with a power-sharing compromise between an Emperor with strong executive powers who keeps full control of administration, finance, foreign affairs, and the military, and an Imperial Diet, which has an important say about taxation and the laws of the realm. The Imperial Reform of Maximilian I should be further extended and completed with establishment of a full-fledged three branches of government system, with the Imperial Diet as the legislative authority, the Emperor and his ministers as the executive, and Imperial Chamber Court as the supreme judiciary. The Imperial Circles system should be implemented throughout the HRE's territory, to rationalize taxation, the raising of troops, and representation in the Diet. Much like the particularist princes, the Swiss Confederation had to be crushed on the battlefield (not too difficult since it was in military decline in the 16th century) and fully reincorporated in the Empire. A mediatization reform was necessary to reduce the political fragmentation of the HRE and rationalize its internal borders, and a parallel secularization reform to eliminate the ecclesiastic principalities. Of course, the Habsburg domain should reap the lion's share of territorial benefits from these two reforms, although a sizable part of the leftover booty may go to reward the German allies of the Habsburg. To a degree, the Emperors should cultivate a political alliance with the minor nobles, the burghers, and the Imperial cities to counterbalance the power of the princes. The HRE may stay a de jure elective, de facto hereditary monarchy, since in these circumstances the power base of the Habsburg is going to be so large they always have the Imperial election in the pocket barring political catastrophes. The Electoral College should be reformed to a system based on the Imperial Circles much like membership in the Imperial Diet, to make both fully represenative of all HRE territories. With this kind of settlement the HRE should have no serious trouble becoming the strongest European state, outstaging France (and down the road, Russia) and frustrating all its expansionist attempts, ensuring the Germanization of all its territories, keeping a solid personal-union bond with Hungary, and helping it expel the Ottomans from the Balkans. I am not sure if in these circumstances it would better for Germany to pursue hegemonic control of northern Italy and an extension of its federal system beyond the Alps, or hand over the job of Italian unification to its Spanish ally. Certainly a HRE/Germany that centralizes since the 16th century and keeps control of the Low Countries is going to be in an excellent position to take part in the colonial game on a level playing field with the other European powers. The Spanish colonies would be off-limits for German expansion, also because Germany would have a serious interest to keep cultivating an alliance with Spain as long as feasible to keep France, England, and the Ottomans at bay. The same point applies to the Portuguese colonies, since ITTL the Iberian Union is going to endure. On the other hand, Germany can and should outstage Britain and France in North America, India, Southeast Asia, and Australasia w/o excessive trouble. With a little effort, TTL Germany can win an equivalent of the French and Indian Wars and turn North America north of the Rio Grande or better the Tropic of Cancer into a German colony. As it concerns Poland, I agree the minimum agenda for this kind of successful Germany should be to ensure the Poles never get funny ideas about Pomerania and Silesia, seize territorial continuity with Ducal Prussia and control of the Vistula trade route by conquering Royal Prussia, enact full Germanization of these territories, keep Poland out of Russia's hands, and optimally make the PLC a client state. I am not convinced in these circumstances a drive to conquer and Germanize the Baltic states would be worth the effort, although Germany should certainly strive to keep them out of Russia's hands.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 26, 2019 6:11:20 GMT
How could Burgundy end up under the Austrian crown? Was it a fluke that Burgundy IOTL ended up split between the Spaniards and the Austrians? I do agree that there might be a scenario similar to the Anglican case with regards to the German churches, but I doubt that the Spaniards might adopt the same approach.
You might also need a better set of relations between the HRE and Muscovy, as IOTL Maximillian attempted to form a normal relationship with the Muscovite state, but proved to be short lived.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 26, 2019 8:39:09 GMT
How could Burgundy end up under the Austrian crown? Was it a fluke that Burgundy IOTL ended up split between the Spaniards and the Austrians? I do agree that there might be a scenario similar to the Anglican case with regards to the German churches, but I doubt that the Spaniards might adopt the same approach. You might also need a better set of relations between the HRE and Muscovy, as IOTL Maximillian attempted to form a normal relationship with the Muscovite state, but proved to be short lived.
I suspect that it was considered the best balanced option. Austria was seeking to maintain control of the HRE and keep back the Turks, both by land and sea, the latter being at their most threatening at the time. Spain was, some activities in the Med otherwise, more concerned with overseas expansion and keeping France in check. As such the Burgundian inheritance, which was IIRC the county of Free Burgundy [i.e the part of the old county outside French control] and the Spanish Netherlands, [i.e. OTL Netherlands Belgium and a good chunk of Flanders] was probably a better fit for Spain, providing some important merchantile areas in the north and a physical barrier to French expansion to the east.
It might be that it could have fitted in with Austria as that while giving Vienna a new burden, keeping the French restrained on their eastern border, would be balanced by the wealth of those areas. Possibly instead it was feared that adding them to Austria would make the latter seem too strong and prompt more unrest by the princes in the HRE who definitely didn't want a strong centralised state.
Anyway initial ideas on why it ended up as it did.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Jun 26, 2019 16:19:23 GMT
Yes, stevep, the Burgundian inheritance was the territories you listed. To fulfil the purpose of the scenario, the resistance of particularist German princes to HRE centralization needs to be defeated on the battlefield to some degree, kinda like they tried but failed in the 30YW, only in a more successful and less destructive way, thanks to more favorable circumstances (stronger Spain, weaker France, not so entrenched religious division, no Dutch rebellion, no Swedish intervention). Admittedly the Emperors could afford to, and likely for the sake of pacification should, offer a workable compromise to the princes in the form of Kaiserreich-style federal autonomy and separation of powers between the Emperor and the Reichstag.
As an aside, Charles V forced Francis I to pledge and cede the French portion of Burgundy and Provence in the peace treaty when he captured the French king after the Battle of Pavia, but Francis managed to renege the treaty after he was released with the excuse it had been signed under duress. As if being signed under duress by the defeated party was not a defining feature of peace treaties. If I had been the Emperor, first I'd have gotten the claimed territories occupied and fortified by my troops, then I'd have released the royal hostage, not the other way around, screw trust in the honor of kings. As if French kings had not been reneging unfavorable peace deals before the ink was dry all the time during the OHYW.
Perhaps ITTL a victorious Imperial-Spanish alliance might be more successful if similar circumstances apply. I am not sure what the likely Spanish part of the war booty might be. Perhaps Gascony-Bearn and/or Languedoc. Plus of course the French portion of the Flanders that Spain (or ITTL Austria) eventually managed to get at the end of the Italian wars. No doubt France would fight to exhaustion to recover the lost territories, but it fought for decades anyway IOTL to try and enforce its expansionist objectives and break the Spanish-Imperial compact even w/o such losses.
Well, if you have any concerns about the plausibility of Charles V being persuaded to give the Burgundian inheritance to Austria in the division of his domains, we can simply use the other PoD I proposed, survival of Miguel de la Paz. He inherits and unites the three Iberian monarchies, Philip the Handsome inherits and unites the Habsburg domains and the Burgundian inheritance. The division happens naturally by dynastic means. For the purpose of the scenario, we just need to assume Aviz Iberia and Habsburg Austria form the same kind of close alliance they got under a personal union or the same dynasty, but this seems easy to accomplish since they share common enemies in France and the Ottomans-Barbary states, and complementary strategic interests. They just need to find a workable compromise about their religious policies, or agree to disagree on them. In various ways, this PoD would likely work better for the purpose of the scenario than the one occurring with Charles V's abdication.
As it concerns a religious policy Aviz Iberia and Habsburg Austria-Burgundy might easily agree upon, I assume a general reform of the Church broadly similar to the Anglican model combined with a few Conciliarist features, only applied to the whole Western Christendom, would be something the two powers (and the other Western European states) might accept w/o excessive difficulties. It would involve a thorough reform of the clergy to wipe out the corruption issues that had triggered the Reformation, seizure of the ecclestiastic properties, dissolution of the monasteries, a transfer of power in the Church from the Popes and the Curia to the national churches subservient to secular authorities, and establishment of the Ecumenical Council as the supreme religious authority of Christendom. I assume this kind of reform would largely satisfy the Lutheran-Anglican wing of the Reformation and allow to reabsorb most of it into reformed Catholicism.
The Anabaptist-Calvinist radicals would still stand in opposition, but they had to be crushed by force anyway, due to their extremism and tendency to stir up rebellions and civil wars whenever they took root. With the mainstream Protestant wing of the Reformation being reabsorbed in the Church, the radical evangelical wing alone would face a much more difficult struggle, find much less support among the upper classes, and mostly end up crushed or marginalized, just like the other heretical movements before them that took religion as an excuse for social upheaval and political revolution.
The monarchs of Spain, Austria, England, France, and most other European states could agree to support this kind of reform w/o excessive difficulty, despite their quarrels in other matters, since they would stand to benefit from it, it was not too different from what various kings tried to implement in their lands with various degrees of success (e.g. the Anglican reform in England, the Gallican Church in France), and it was broadly similar to previous failed attempts to reform the Church in the aftermath of the Western Schism.
If Spain and Austria agree to back it, I assume they would be able to force the Pope to summon a Council that would implement it. Say because an equivalent of the War of the League of Cognac occurs ITTL, the Pope sides with France, the Spanish-Imperial forces conquer Rome and capture him, and force him to implement reform. IOTL Charles V basically wasted this golden opportunity to heal the Reformation on petty claims and allowing the Pope to drag his feet, ITTL it need not occur.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 26, 2019 22:13:00 GMT
Yes, stevep, the Burgundian inheritance was the territories you listed. To fulfil the purpose of the scenario, the resistance of particularist German princes to HRE centralization needs to be defeated on the battlefield to some degree, kinda like they tried but failed in the 30YW, only in a more successful and less destructive way, thanks to more favorable circumstances (stronger Spain, weaker France, not so entrenched religious division, no Dutch rebellion, no Swedish intervention). Admittedly the Emperors could afford to, and likely for the sake of pacification should, offer a workable compromise to the princes in the form of Kaiserreich-style federal autonomy and separation of powers between the Emperor and the Reichstag. As an aside, Charles V forced Francis I to pledge and cede the French portion of Burgundy and Provence in the peace treaty when he captured the French king after the Battle of Pavia, but Francis managed to renege the treaty after he was released with the excuse it had been signed under duress. As if being signed under duress by the defeated party was not a defining feature of peace treaties. If I had been the Emperor, first I'd have gotten the claimed territories occupied and fortified by my troops, then I'd have released the royal hostage, not the other way around, screw trust in the honor of kings. As if French kings had not been reneging unfavorable peace deals before the ink was dry all the time during the OHYW. Perhaps ITTL a victorious Imperial-Spanish alliance might be more successful if similar circumstances apply. I am not sure what the likely Spanish part of the war booty might be. Perhaps Gascony-Bearn and/or Languedoc. Plus of course the French portion of the Flanders that Spain (or ITTL Austria) eventually managed to get at the end of the Italian wars. No doubt France would fight to exhaustion to recover the lost territories, but it fought for decades anyway IOTL to try and enforce its expansionist objectives and break the Spanish-Imperial compact even w/o such losses. Well, if you have any concerns about the plausibility of Charles V being persuaded to give the Burgundian inheritance to Austria in the division of his domains, we can simply use the other PoD I proposed, survival of Miguel de la Paz. He inherits and unites the three Iberian monarchies, Philip the Handsome inherits and unites the Habsburg domains and the Burgundian inheritance. The division happens naturally by dynastic means. For the purpose of the scenario, we just need to assume Aviz Iberia and Habsburg Austria form the same kind of close alliance they got under a personal union or the same dynasty, but this seems easy to accomplish since they share common enemies in France and the Ottomans-Barbary states, and complementary strategic interests. They just need to find a workable compromise about their religious policies, or agree to disagree on them. In various ways, this PoD would likely work better for the purpose of the scenario than the one occurring with Charles V's abdication. As it concerns a religious policy Aviz Iberia and Habsburg Austria-Burgundy might easily agree upon, I assume a general reform of the Church broadly similar to the Anglican model combined with a few Conciliarist features, only applied to the whole Western Christendom, would be something the two powers (and the other Western European states) might accept w/o excessive difficulties. It would involve a thorough reform of the clergy to wipe out the corruption issues that had triggered the Reformation, seizure of the ecclestiastic properties, dissolution of the monasteries, a transfer of power in the Church from the Popes and the Curia to the national churches subservient to secular authorities, and establishment of the Ecumenical Council as the supreme religious authority of Christendom. I assume this kind of reform would largely satisfy the Lutheran-Anglican wing of the Reformation and allow to reabsorb most of it into reformed Catholicism. The Anabaptist-Calvinist radicals would still stand in opposition, but they had to be crushed by force anyway, due to their extremism and tendency to stir up rebellions and civil wars whenever they took root. With the mainstream Protestant wing of the Reformation being reabsorbed in the Church, the radical evangelical wing alone would face a much more difficult struggle, find much less support among the upper classes, and mostly end up crushed or marginalized, just like the other heretical movements before them that took religion as an excuse for social upheaval and political revolution. The monarchs of Spain, Austria, England, France, and most other European states could agree to support this kind of reform w/o excessive difficulty, despite their quarrels in other matters, since they would stand to benefit from it, it was not too different from what various kings tried to implement in their lands with various degrees of success (e.g. the Anglican reform in England, the Gallican Church in France), and it was broadly similar to previous failed attempts to reform the Church in the aftermath of the Western Schism. If Spain and Austria agree to back it, I assume they would be able to force the Pope to summon a Council that would implement it. Say because an equivalent of the War of the League of Cognac occurs ITTL, the Pope sides with France, the Spanish-Imperial forces conquer Rome and capture him, and force him to implement reform. IOTL Charles V basically wasted this golden opportunity to heal the Reformation on petty claims and allowing the Pope to drag his feet, ITTL it need not occur.
Eurofed
Yes Charles did make a mistake trusting Francis I to keep his word. Interesting butterfly if he didn't as I'm sometimes wondered myself. It's possible that the old country of Burgundy and some associated areas could have been added to those parts of the former duchy of Burgundy that was already in Hapsburg hands. Or as you say, to ensure a western Haspburg state including those territories the survival of Miguel de la Paz which unites Iberia's three kingdoms but I think keeps them separate from the Hapsburg empire.
However I think you vastly overlook the forces opposing any autocratic unification of Europe by this point. Don't forget that while it is often presented at a religious war the 30YW was far more about whether the Hapsburg's would establish a centralised HRE of the sort your suggesting. France wasn't the only Catholic power to oppose this, but definitely the most important and I have seen mentioned that the Papacy was also opposed to the emperor establishing real power. This is without mentioning the logistical and social problems facing such a leviathan.
This is probably a good thing for Europe and the world because a serious chance for such a unified state dominating Europe would have caused much bloodier and longer wars. Even worse, in the I think unlikely event of it succeeded your likely to see Europe end up like the Ottoman and other eastern states, ossifying because there's no real chance to its power and because it seeks stability and opposes change generally being not just autocratic but also opposing scientific and technological development.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 27, 2019 4:12:12 GMT
You can have an even better option than a surviving Miguel da Paz: the survival of Prince Afonso (the first husband of Isabella of Aragon). A surviving Prince Afonso was the basis of my current TL, and him surviving would give Isabella of Aragon a much better chance of carrying a child than Miguel da Paz can. Also, the issue with the survival of Miguel da Paz was Isabella of Aragon's constant fasting which screwed up her chances of giving birth to a healthy baby boy.
With that aside, I'm not sure how can the HRE be able to expand further into Poland-Lithuania without any help whatsoever. However, I do think that a possible rapprochement with the Eastern Orthodox Church would be necessary in order to bring Muscovy on board with the reunification of the Christian churches. On the other hand, couldn't the HRE do what the early Transtamara dynasty in Spain did, with the creation of the Crowns of Castille and Aragon and the subordination of various minor Kingdoms and Duchies to those Crowns, though with the German Crowns instead? You can have the Crown of Burgundy to cover the Dutch duchies and kingdoms, the Crown of Hanover or Hesse to cover the areas of northwestern Germany (historical Kingdom of Hanover), a Crown of Rhinemark (basically the OTL western territories of the Kingdom of Prussia), a Crown of Austria (basically OTL Austria), a Crown of Bohemia (basically the Kingdom of Bohemia and Moravia), a Crown of Saxony (Saxony plus maybe Silesia), a Crown of Bavaria (OTL Bavaria), a Crown of Mecklenburg (Mecklenburg plus Holstein) and a Crown of Brandenburg (Brandenburg plus Pommerania). A limited kind of centralization of judicial and executive power combined with the federalization of administrative power would have worked best for the Holy Roman Empire at this point, though I'm not sure if the Italian states have left the HRE already. If the HRE did attempt to conquer parts of Poland and all of the areas under the control of the Teutonic Order, that would qualify for the creation of a Crown of Prussia.
What made English the global lingua franca was the establishment of colonies around the world. Unlike the British, the HRE in this scenario wouldn't have the same luxury of building a larger navy at the expense of the army. They would have to balance between both.
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