mullauna
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Post by mullauna on May 9, 2019 16:58:58 GMT
The territory of the Bonn Republic ("West Germany") is ISOT'd at noon on August 31st 1969 to noon on August 31st, 1939.
The nukes don't come along.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 9, 2019 17:06:06 GMT
The territory of the Bonn Republic ("West Germany") is ISOT'd at noon on August 31st 1969 to noon on August 31st, 1939. The nukes don't come along. Do other NATO forces in West Germany also come along.
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on May 9, 2019 18:53:58 GMT
conventional, non-nuclear. yes.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 9, 2019 18:59:26 GMT
conventional, non-nuclear. yes. Well, now is the question, what is the Rump Nazi Germany going to do, if they invade West Germany, it is screwed.
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on May 9, 2019 19:03:39 GMT
Willy Brandt vs. Hitler will be interesting.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 9, 2019 19:09:20 GMT
Willy Brandt vs. Hitler will be interesting. Brand is not going to be nice to Hitler, Most likely the invasion of Poland will not happen, Rump Nazi Germany has other problems to worry about now with a West Germany + NATO forces at its new Eastern Borders , they only thing Rump Nazi Germany has that can buy it some time is the large army which was to be used for the invasion of Poland.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 9, 2019 22:09:15 GMT
Willy Brandt vs. Hitler will be interesting. Brand is not going to be nice to Hitler, Most likely the invasion of Poland will not happen, Rump Nazi Germany has other problems to worry about now with a West Germany + NATO forces at its new Eastern Borders , they only thing Rump Nazi Germany has that can buy it some time is the large army which was to be used for the invasion of Poland.
As well as being massive outdated in terms of equipment its not that massively greater than the W German one at that point, let alone all the non-German forces present.
The latter are going to have interesting impacts on the world as their contact with their down-time countries. Especially possibly the large US forces who will be a big impact on the US as it finds out its 'future' as not just the world's richest and most powerful economy but as the greatest military power and one with bases and commitments around the world. Also in terms of the growing discontent with the ongoing Vietnam war, the moon landing, the fight for equal rights etc.
Going to be big for Britain as well as the news of the end of empire, the social and political reforms after 45 and the mixed fortunes of the country in WWII.
France IIRC had already left the military side of NATO so they won't have many military people affected, possibly a few liaison personnel. However going to be a fair number of commercial people and others I suspect and they will learn of future 'events' from other people anyway. The collapse of the 3rd republic and embarrassment of German occupation and the Vichy regime, the rise of de Gaulle, and again the ending of empire.
No doubt that the W German and NATO forces will crush the Nazis, which will include those in Austria and the Sudetenland but there's going to be some complications. If the Czech republic is restored what happens to the Sudetenland region? Similarly there's no way W Germany will agree to the mass deportation of Germans from the eastern lands that were transferred to Poland and the USSR in 45 but what about Memel? Also I suspect that the up-timers, including the Germans will offer a guarantee for Poland's eastern borders as while the regime there is unpleasant its far superior to that of Stalin.
Its going to be a potential nightmare for Stalin, who has lost his recent ally and hopes of expansion under those circumstances. Also for the Japanese as there is no way they will be in a position to attack the western allies when not only the latter not tied down in Europe but have much better weapons available and knowledge of what the Japanese did OTL.
Of course in the medium term the up-timer forces, especially those non-German ones are going to have problems being maintained and supplied. However their going to make available a huge amount of information about future technology and developments.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 10, 2019 9:27:05 GMT
Trying to find out what the West Germany Armed forces + NATO forces in West Germany strength was in 1969, thus in the meantime here is a West Germany Army parade in 1969. Also this picture here from 1966 will give you a impression, the West Germans alone could deal with the Rump Nazi Germany in firepower.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 10, 2019 10:29:34 GMT
Lordroel
Very true. IIRC European powers provided - once moblished and before US reinforcements arrived - ~80% of NATO's ground power and Germany probably provided most of that. Also the sort of armour, aircraft, C3I and the like they would have would be crushing for the Nazis.
Steve
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Post by lordroel on May 10, 2019 16:40:11 GMT
Lordroel Very true. IIRC European powers provided - once moblished and before US reinforcements arrived - ~80% of NATO's ground power and Germany probably provided most of that. Also the sort of armour, aircraft, C3I and the like they would have would be crushing for the Nazis. Steve So what i have found out is that the West German Army in 1969 consisted of 305,000 men in 12 divisions. This list does not include the Territorialheer which would be the West Germany Territorial army. 1. Gebirgsdivision/1st Mountain Division: Gebirgsjägerbrigade 22, Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 and Panzer Brigade 24). 1st Airborne Division: (Panzergrenadier Brigade 1,Panzergrenadier Brigade 2 and Panzergrenadier Brigade 3). 2nd Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzerbrigade 6, Panzergrenadierbrigade 5 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 4). 3rd Panzer Division: (Panzerbrigade 7, Panzergrenadierbrigade 8 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 9). 4th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 10, Panzergrenadierbrigade 11 and Panzerbrigade 12). 5th Panzer Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 13, Panzerbrigade 14 and Panzerbrigade 14). 6th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 16, Panzergrenadierbrigade 17 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 18). 7th Panzer Division: ( Panzerbrigade 19, Panzerbrigade 20 and Panzerbrigade 21). 10th Panzer Division: (Panzergrenadier Brigade 28, Panzerbrigade 29 and Panzerbrigade 30. 11th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzer Grenadier Brigade 31, Panzer Grenadier Brigade 32 and Panzerbrigade 33. 12th Panzer Division: (Panzerbrigade 36 and Panzer Grenadier Brigade 35).
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Post by stevep on May 10, 2019 21:01:10 GMT
Lordroel Very true. IIRC European powers provided - once moblished and before US reinforcements arrived - ~80% of NATO's ground power and Germany probably provided most of that. Also the sort of armour, aircraft, C3I and the like they would have would be crushing for the Nazis. Steve So what i have found out is that the West German Army in 1969 consisted of 305,000 men in 12 divisions. This list does not include the Territorialheer which would be the West Germany Territorial army. 1. Gebirgsdivision/1st Mountain Division: Gebirgsjägerbrigade 22, Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 and Panzer Brigade 24). 1st Airborne Division: (Panzergrenadier Brigade 1,Panzergrenadier Brigade 2 and Panzergrenadier Brigade 3). 2nd Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzerbrigade 6, Panzergrenadierbrigade 5 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 4). 3rd Panzer Division: (Panzerbrigade 7, Panzergrenadierbrigade 8 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 9). 4th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 10, Panzergrenadierbrigade 11 and Panzerbrigade 12). 5th Panzer Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 13, Panzerbrigade 14 and Panzerbrigade 14). 6th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 16, Panzergrenadierbrigade 17 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 18). 7th Panzer Division: ( Panzerbrigade 19, Panzerbrigade 20 and Panzerbrigade 21). 10th Panzer Division: (Panzergrenadier Brigade 28, Panzerbrigade 29 and Panzerbrigade 30. 11th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzer Grenadier Brigade 31, Panzer Grenadier Brigade 32 and Panzerbrigade 33. 12th Panzer Division: (Panzerbrigade 36 and Panzer Grenadier Brigade 35).
Interesting. I thought it was somewhat larger, about twice the size or more. Possibly that's when reserves are activated? Unfortunately since the end of the cold war most of my old books on the period are archived [i.e. in shelves in the junk room upstairs] but will try and have a look tomorrow.
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Post by lordroel on May 11, 2019 12:29:47 GMT
So what i have found out is that the West German Army in 1969 consisted of 305,000 men in 12 divisions. This list does not include the Territorialheer which would be the West Germany Territorial army. 1. Gebirgsdivision/1st Mountain Division: Gebirgsjägerbrigade 22, Gebirgsjägerbrigade 23 and Panzer Brigade 24). 1st Airborne Division: (Panzergrenadier Brigade 1,Panzergrenadier Brigade 2 and Panzergrenadier Brigade 3). 2nd Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzerbrigade 6, Panzergrenadierbrigade 5 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 4). 3rd Panzer Division: (Panzerbrigade 7, Panzergrenadierbrigade 8 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 9). 4th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 10, Panzergrenadierbrigade 11 and Panzerbrigade 12). 5th Panzer Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 13, Panzerbrigade 14 and Panzerbrigade 14). 6th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzergrenadierbrigade 16, Panzergrenadierbrigade 17 and Panzergrenadierbrigade 18). 7th Panzer Division: ( Panzerbrigade 19, Panzerbrigade 20 and Panzerbrigade 21). 10th Panzer Division: (Panzergrenadier Brigade 28, Panzerbrigade 29 and Panzerbrigade 30. 11th Panzergrenadier Division: (Panzer Grenadier Brigade 31, Panzer Grenadier Brigade 32 and Panzerbrigade 33. 12th Panzer Division: (Panzerbrigade 36 and Panzer Grenadier Brigade 35). Interesting. I thought it was somewhat larger, about twice the size or more. Possibly that's when reserves are activated? Unfortunately since the end of the cold war most of my old books on the period are archived [i.e. in shelves in the junk room upstairs] but will try and have a look tomorrow.
Well we do know what the Rump Nazi Germany has in strength: German Orders of Battle for September 1, 1939I can see one ore two more of their armies moving to the new West German/Rump Nazi Germany and leaving at least one army it the Rump Nazi Germany/Polish border to make sure Poland ideas not get strange ideas. Also i nice image of what Nazi Germany had before the split happenend.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 11, 2019 20:39:55 GMT
Interesting. I thought it was somewhat larger, about twice the size or more. Possibly that's when reserves are activated? Unfortunately since the end of the cold war most of my old books on the period are archived [i.e. in shelves in the junk room upstairs] but will try and have a look tomorrow.
Well we do know what the Rump Nazi Germany has in strength: German Orders of Battle for September 1, 1939I can see one ore two more of their armies moving to the new West German/Rump Nazi Germany and leaving at least one army it the Rump Nazi Germany/Polish border to make sure Poland ideas not get strange ideas. Also i nice image of what Nazi Germany had before the split happenend.
Apologies I got distracted by gaming and ruby - Sacrens victory! - and forgot and now gaming with a friend. That map shows nothing in Austria although given relations with Mussolini were pretty good I suspect the forces there were pretty minimal so W Germany could probably occupy that pretty quickly. Although they might not be too welcome initially as Hitler was fairly popular at the time but they need to the Nazis from there.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 11, 2019 21:00:25 GMT
Well we do know what the Rump Nazi Germany has in strength: German Orders of Battle for September 1, 1939I can see one ore two more of their armies moving to the new West German/Rump Nazi Germany and leaving at least one army it the Rump Nazi Germany/Polish border to make sure Poland ideas not get strange ideas. Also i nice image of what Nazi Germany had before the split happenend. Apologies I got distracted by gaming and ruby - Sacrens victory! - and forgot and now gaming with a friend. That map shows nothing in Austria although given relations with Mussolini were pretty good I suspect the forces there were pretty minimal so W Germany could probably occupy that pretty quickly. Although they might not be too welcome initially as Hitler was fairly popular at the time but they need to the Nazis from there. Is it also true that with the lost of Nazi West Germany to West Germany from 1969 that Nazi Germany lost most of its tank building capacity, leaving only what it has in East Germany and Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia (former Czechoslovakia). The Rump Nazi Germany does not have any major naval force anymore, while West Germany has in 1969 this listed below which makes them a true naval power in the Baltic Sea and has enough to show flag in the North Sea. Submarines3 Type 201 submarines. 11 Type 205 submarines 1 Type 206 submarine (under construction with 17 more to be build). Destroyers4 Hamburg-class destroyers (Hamburg, Schleswig-Holstein, Bayern and Hessen). 2 Lütjens-class destroyers (Lütjens, Mölders and Rommel). Frigates6 Köln-class frigates (Köln, Emden, Augsburg, Karlsruhe, Lübeck and Braunschweig). Fast attack craft 6 Type 149 Silbermöwe-class fast attack craft20 Type 140 Jaguar-class fast attack craft. 10 Type 141 Seeadler-class fast attack craft. 10 Type 142 Zobel-class fast attack craft. Minehunters18 Type 320 Lindau-class minehunters. Training cruiser
1 Training cruiser class Deutschland
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on May 13, 2019 14:59:16 GMT
Any halfway sane government in Berlin will realise that they can't fight Poland and West Germany at the same time and follow Bonn's lead.
Also with West Berlin appearing out of the ISOT, some key Nazi officials, including the Gestapo-SS HQ. will be gone.
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