lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 13, 2019 17:21:34 GMT
Found what US forces there where in 1969 in West Germany, also check this out: US Army in Germany 3rd Armored Division: Frankfurt, West Germany 3rd Infantry Division (Mechanized): Wurzburg, West Germany 4th Armored Division: Goppingen, West Germany 8th Infantry Division: Bad-Kreuznach, West Germany Fort Riley, Kansas: (one brigade in West Germany) 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment: Nurnberg, West Germany 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment: Baumholder, West Germany 14th Armored Cavalry Regiment: Fulda, West Germany Berlin Brigade Berlin, West Germany
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 13, 2019 19:47:25 GMT
Any halfway sane government in Berlin will realise that they can't fight Poland and West Germany at the same time and follow Bonn's lead. Also with West Berlin appearing out of the ISOT, some key Nazi officials, including the Gestapo-SS HQ. will be gone.
Good point about W Berlin's appearance wiping out a lot of the Nazi government but on the negative side the Nazis and a lot of the down-time Germans are going to be very angry that this new W Berlin is occupied but the hated former enemies of France/Britain/US. Suspect this could be a serious flash point, especially given that the forces there are pretty small, especially since 1939 Nazi Germany doesn't really qualify as half sane. You might see some attempt at a military coup by some of the military if their able to get a real discussion with some of the up-timers and realise both where the Nazis took Germany historically and what their facing with the new W Germany and the allied forces there.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 16, 2019 16:46:12 GMT
Any halfway sane government in Berlin will realise that they can't fight Poland and West Germany at the same time and follow Bonn's lead. Also with West Berlin appearing out of the ISOT, some key Nazi officials, including the Gestapo-SS HQ. will be gone. Good point about W Berlin's appearance wiping out a lot of the Nazi government but on the negative side the Nazis and a lot of the down-time Germans are going to be very angry that this new W Berlin is occupied but the hated former enemies of France/Britain/US. Suspect this could be a serious flash point, especially given that the forces there are pretty small, especially since 1939 Nazi Germany doesn't really qualify as half sane. You might see some attempt at a military coup by some of the military if their able to get a real discussion with some of the up-timers and realise both where the Nazis took Germany historically and what their facing with the new W Germany and the allied forces there.
If i am corecht, the Reich Chancellery is in East Berlin and thus Hitler is alive most likely.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 16, 2019 21:07:52 GMT
Good point about W Berlin's appearance wiping out a lot of the Nazi government but on the negative side the Nazis and a lot of the down-time Germans are going to be very angry that this new W Berlin is occupied but the hated former enemies of France/Britain/US. Suspect this could be a serious flash point, especially given that the forces there are pretty small, especially since 1939 Nazi Germany doesn't really qualify as half sane. You might see some attempt at a military coup by some of the military if their able to get a real discussion with some of the up-timers and realise both where the Nazis took Germany historically and what their facing with the new W Germany and the allied forces there.
If i am corecht, the Reich Chancellery is in East Berlin and thus Hitler is alive most likely.
Well that would almost certainly mean a very quick attack on W Berlin, especially once he realises its occupied by foreign powers.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 16, 2019 21:14:01 GMT
If i am corecht, the Reich Chancellery is in East Berlin and thus Hitler is alive most likely. Well that would almost certainly mean a very quick attack on W Berlin, especially once he realises its occupied by foreign powers.
Was the Berlin wall already build as we know it in its 1989 form, because i could see the SS and gestapo manning it to contain West Berlin, but then again the French,British and American brigades there have enough fire power to deal with any Nazi Rump Germany attempt to recapture West Berlin and to hold out until West German + NATO forces in West Germany have fought them self to relieve them.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 16, 2019 22:05:36 GMT
Well that would almost certainly mean a very quick attack on W Berlin, especially once he realises its occupied by foreign powers.
Was the Berlin wall already build as we know it in its 1989 form, because i could see the SS and gestapo manning it to contain West Berlin, but then again the French,British and American brigades there have enough fire power to deal with any Nazi Rump Germany attempt to recapture West Berlin and to hold out until West German + NATO forces in West Germany have fought them self to relieve them.
It was started in 1961 and completed within a couple of years so will be in place by 1969 - although since it was on E German territory I would assume it hasn't come through.
The forces in W Berlin are powerful by 1939 standards but fairly small and will have limited supplies. Not sure if any German forces were located in the pocket, think not, but might get some help from the German police and some veterans. However one problem is that road and rail links will be cut by the ISOT even before any action by the Nazis and as well as the allied forces there are ~2 million people to feed. Even without aggressive action by the Nazis the western powers will have to attack quickly to relieve the city. Whether they could take that decision in time and get through the large down-time forces that would oppose them could be a difficult question. Especially since they would have to establish some relations with their other down-time neighbour who might take a while to accept the wild story being told to them. Plus how self-sufficient would W Germany be and how quickly could it get supplies it would need. Probably OK for power but oil and gas could be a big issue for instance.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 17, 2019 8:41:35 GMT
Here is something funny, who in 1969 lives in Spandau Prison located in West Berlin:
Rudolf Hess.
Wonder what his younger self will think about this, he will have a lot of explaining to do to Hitler.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 17, 2019 9:52:22 GMT
Here is something funny, who in 1969 lives in Spandau Prison located in West Berlin: Rudolf Hess. Wonder what his younger self will think about this, he will have a lot of explaining to do to Hitler.
That would be an interesting encounter if it occurred. Not sure if Hitler would have that much to complain about as Hess - albeit more in terms of maintaining his own position in the party - undertook his mission to get what Hitler wanted in terms of a peace deal with Hitler. As far as I'm aware he never denounced Hitler? However of course Hitler isn't exactly known for his rational judgement.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 17, 2019 10:05:06 GMT
Here is something funny, who in 1969 lives in Spandau Prison located in West Berlin: Rudolf Hess. Wonder what his younger self will think about this, he will have a lot of explaining to do to Hitler. That would be an interesting encounter if it occurred. Not sure if Hitler would have that much to complain about as Hess - albeit more in terms of maintaining his own position in the party - undertook his mission to get what Hitler wanted in terms of a peace deal with Hitler. As far as I'm aware he never denounced Hitler? However of course Hitler isn't exactly known for his rational judgement.
Thinking about it, there are some other former high ranking Nazis living in West Germany like former Grand Admiral Dönitz,Albert Speer, former Generalfeldmarschall Erich von Manstein, Erhard Milch and many others, i doubt they will be loyal to the Nazi Rump Germany as they know it will never be able to beat the West Germans + NATO forces there in a fight and also know about the horrors that could happen.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 17, 2019 10:45:33 GMT
That would be an interesting encounter if it occurred. Not sure if Hitler would have that much to complain about as Hess - albeit more in terms of maintaining his own position in the party - undertook his mission to get what Hitler wanted in terms of a peace deal with Hitler. As far as I'm aware he never denounced Hitler? However of course Hitler isn't exactly known for his rational judgement.
Thinking about it, there are some other former high ranking Nazis living in West Germany like former Grand Admiral Dönitz,Albert Speer, former Generalfeldmarschall Erich von Manstein, Erhard Milch and many others, i doubt they will be loyal to the Nazi Rump Germany as they know it will never be able to beat the West Germans + NATO forces there in a fight and also know about the horrors that could happen.
I suspect at least some of them would oppose the Nazis more because of the horrors that is likely to be inflicted on E Germany or that they might incur Hitler's wrath - for instance Donitz for surrendering after he was made Fuhrer. However agree that they won't try and support Hitler.
One interesting point after the dust settles. Especially if Stalin makes no moves on E Poland. There's going to be a hell of a lot of Jews now surviving, especially in eastern Europe, and when world gets out of what happened to them in OTL I suspect a lot will want to move to Palestine, which will make for an explosive situation there and problems for Britain in deciding what to do with the mandate there.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 17, 2019 11:17:34 GMT
Thinking about it, there are some other former high ranking Nazis living in West Germany like former Grand Admiral Dönitz,Albert Speer, former Generalfeldmarschall Erich von Manstein, Erhard Milch and many others, i doubt they will be loyal to the Nazi Rump Germany as they know it will never be able to beat the West Germans + NATO forces there in a fight and also know about the horrors that could happen. I suspect at least some of them would oppose the Nazis more because of the horrors that is likely to be inflicted on E Germany or that they might incur Hitler's wrath - for instance Donitz for surrendering after he was made Fuhrer. However agree that they won't try and support Hitler. One interesting point after the dust settles. Especially if Stalin makes no moves on E Poland. There's going to be a hell of a lot of Jews now surviving, especially in eastern Europe, and when world gets out of what happened to them in OTL I suspect a lot will want to move to Palestine, which will make for an explosive situation there and problems for Britain in deciding what to do with the mandate there.
West Germany might help with a new Israel, it might for them be a bit as i say, washing away the blood.
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on May 17, 2019 12:17:07 GMT
Do you think Hess was murdered in 1987 and his "suicide" was staged, as many Fourth Reichers claim?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 17, 2019 12:27:35 GMT
Do you think Hess was murdered in 1987 and his "suicide" was staged, as many Fourth Reichers claim? Do not know, nor do i think this thread is ts the right place to discuses this.
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