lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 23, 2020 13:34:59 GMT
Comrade Dave, It might well have that effect on those of today, but is based on the 1952 'Lisbon Goals' of the NATO Long-Term Defence Plan, which called for 96 divisions, 75 of which would be deployed in Central Europe. This was later lowered due to the New Look/Global Strategy Paper cutbacks of conventional forces. Wait, this is a real thing the 'Lisbon Goals'. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 23, 2020 13:57:31 GMT
Have a look in the Random Orbats thread. I came across the detailed data at long last.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 23, 2020 14:01:06 GMT
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 23, 2020 16:26:39 GMT
That is the one I linked. Drilling down into it, the specifics of the 7000 aircraft for 1953 and 10,000 for 1954 are laid out quite clearly. These numbers correspond with quite a lot of those put forward here.
Dark Earth Atlantic Alliance/NATO Air Forces 1965 vs 1954 NATO
Germany: 2880 vs 1158
France: 2088 vs 2018
Britain: 1960 (960 RAFG + 1000 SC reinforcements) vs 2552
USA: 1872 vs 1515
Italy: 1510 vs 852
Netherlands: 632 vs 374
Belgium: 524 vs 531
Canada: 418 vs 300
Norway: 360 vs 226
Denmark: 360 vs 239
Portugal: 260 vs 200
- The big outlier is Germany, which is a single state and not subject to the same level of restrictions.
- The British force is augmented by 432 Commonwealth tactical aircraft under operation RAFG control (South Africa 96, New Avalon 96, Australia 72, Rhodesia 48, West Indies 48, New Zealand 24, Prydain 24, Newfoundland 24)
- Canadian numbers are backed up by a larger RCAF force in North America
- French Forces Aérienne Tactique are also backed up by the 1280 fighters and interceptors of the Forces de Défense Aérienne and various light/strike bombers of the Forces Aérienne Stratégiques
- Austria-Hungary is in the frontline, but its force of 1840 aircraft is aging quite rapidly...
- Sweden's 1463 tactical fighters and interceptors are a big factor in the different capability of NATO*, but most of the Swedish force is devoted to air defence of Sweden and the southern Baltic, rather than being capable of deployment to Central Europe.
- The other large outlier is Spain, which has 1329 tactical aircraft, of which perhaps 700 are devoted to air defence and colonial operations etc
- Greece has 625 aircraft assigned to Allied Command Europe, with 650+ assigned to the defence of Constantinople and the front in Anatolia
- Yugoslavia (577) and Bulgaria (425) have reasonably sized forces, but are outnumbered on the southern flank.
- Ruritania deploys a small force of 250 planes
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 23, 2020 16:32:52 GMT
That is the one I linked. Drilling down into it, the specifics of the 7000 aircraft for 1953 and 10,000 for 1954 are laid out quite clearly. These numbers correspond with quite a lot of those put forward here. Dark Earth Atlantic Alliance/NATO Air Forces 1965 vs 1954 NATOGermany: 2880 vs 1158 France: 2088 vs 2018 Britain: 1960 (960 RAFG + 1000 SC reinforcements) vs 2552 USA: 1872 vs 1515 Italy: 1510 vs 852 Netherlands: 632 vs 374 Belgium: 524 vs 531 Canada: 418 vs 300 Norway: 360 vs 226 Denmark: 360 vs 239 Portugal: 260 vs 200 - The big outlier is Germany, which is a single state and not subject to the same level of restrictions. - The British force is augmented by 432 Commonwealth tactical aircraft under operation RAFG control (South Africa 96, New Avalon 96, Australia 72, Rhodesia 48, West Indies 48, New Zealand 24, Prydain 24, Newfoundland 24) - Canadian numbers are backed up by a larger RCAF force in North America - French Forces Aérienne Tactique are also backed up by the 1280 fighters and interceptors of the Forces de Défense Aérienne and various light/strike bombers of the Forces Aérienne Stratégiques- Austria-Hungary is in the frontline, but its force of 1840 aircraft is aging quite rapidly... - Sweden's 1463 tactical fighters and interceptors are a big factor in the different capability of NATO*, but most of the Swedish force is devoted to air defence of Sweden and the southern Baltic, rather than being capable of deployment to Central Europe. - The other large outlier is Spain, which has 1329 tactical aircraft, of which perhaps 700 are devoted to air defence and colonial operations etc - Greece has 625 aircraft assigned to Allied Command Europe, with 650+ assigned to the defence of Constantinople and the front in Anatolia - Yugoslavia (577) and Bulgaria (425) have reasonably sized forces, but are outnumbered on the southern flank. - Ruritania deploys a small force of 250 planes The Netherlands is above Canada, i would assume that Canada would be 6th place. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 23, 2020 17:12:32 GMT
This is based on air forces in Europe; the majority of the RCAF are in North America, as per their orbat, with a total of 2975 planes in 1961 and ~2800 in 1963.
Royal Canadian Air Force Europe, which is scheduled to be reinforced to 25 squadrons from 18 by 1965, would be reinforced by 20 fighter-bomber squadrons and 5 bomber squadrons based in Canada upon mobilisation.
The Belgian/Dutch/Luxembourg air forces are to rise to a combined 1236 aircraft by 1965, all of which will be modern tactical aircraft; replacement of the Dutch and Belgian jet fighters is a very valuable contract.
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Post by lordroel on Jun 23, 2020 18:35:19 GMT
The Belgian/Dutch/Luxembourg air forces are to rise to a combined 1236 aircraft by 1965, all of which will be modern tactical aircraft; replacement of the Dutch and Belgian jet fighters is a very valuable contract. Will the Dutch and Belgians aircraft manufacturers be able to compete against their large British and American counterparts who have a lot more money and a lot more influence. |
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Post by stevep on Jun 23, 2020 19:38:06 GMT
The Belgian/Dutch/Luxembourg air forces are to rise to a combined 1236 aircraft by 1965, all of which will be modern tactical aircraft; replacement of the Dutch and Belgian jet fighters is a very valuable contract. Will the Dutch and Belgians aircraft manufacturers be able to compete against their large British and American counterparts who have a lot more money and a lot more influence.
Well they are larger and richer nations but I suspect their likely to end up buying foreign as OTL. Possibly British or French, German might be politically too sensitive at this stage but most likely US I would expect.
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Post by stevep on Jun 23, 2020 19:50:12 GMT
That is the one I linked. Drilling down into it, the specifics of the 7000 aircraft for 1953 and 10,000 for 1954 are laid out quite clearly. These numbers correspond with quite a lot of those put forward here. Dark Earth Atlantic Alliance/NATO Air Forces 1965 vs 1954 NATOGermany: 2880 vs 1158 France: 2088 vs 2018 Britain: 1960 (960 RAFG + 1000 SC reinforcements) vs 2552 USA: 1872 vs 1515 Italy: 1510 vs 852 Netherlands: 632 vs 374 Belgium: 524 vs 531 Canada: 418 vs 300 Norway: 360 vs 226 Denmark: 360 vs 239 Portugal: 260 vs 200 - The big outlier is Germany, which is a single state and not subject to the same level of restrictions. - The British force is augmented by 432 Commonwealth tactical aircraft under operation RAFG control (South Africa 96, New Avalon 96, Australia 72, Rhodesia 48, West Indies 48, New Zealand 24, Prydain 24, Newfoundland 24) - Canadian numbers are backed up by a larger RCAF force in North America - French Forces Aérienne Tactique are also backed up by the 1280 fighters and interceptors of the Forces de Défense Aérienne and various light/strike bombers of the Forces Aérienne Stratégiques- Austria-Hungary is in the frontline, but its force of 1840 aircraft is aging quite rapidly... - Sweden's 1463 tactical fighters and interceptors are a big factor in the different capability of NATO*, but most of the Swedish force is devoted to air defence of Sweden and the southern Baltic, rather than being capable of deployment to Central Europe. - The other large outlier is Spain, which has 1329 tactical aircraft, of which perhaps 700 are devoted to air defence and colonial operations etc - Greece has 625 aircraft assigned to Allied Command Europe, with 650+ assigned to the defence of Constantinople and the front in Anatolia - Yugoslavia (577) and Bulgaria (425) have reasonably sized forces, but are outnumbered on the southern flank. - Ruritania deploys a small force of 250 planes
Like it but the other oddity is that Britain is I think the only nation with less a/c deployed in DE 65 compared with OE 54. By some 600 a/c which is largely covered by the Commonwealth support but still leaves DE Britain barely matching its OTL equivalent. Possibly the difference is that DE UK still has massive commitments elsewhere.
Just made me think. With India still a friendly dominion rather than a leader of the Non-Aligned Nations as in OTL presumably there's a potential southern front with any possible world conflict with the Soviets and possibly the Chinese empire as well? Given the terrain - what idiot put those mountains there!  -possibly not that much in ground combat, although possibly with India having a role in supporting the allies in the ME and possibly part of SE Asia as well. Plus I would suspect there would be close contacts with the RN and other Commonwealth and allied nations in terms of operation in the Indian Ocean and neighbouring areas. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 25, 2020 7:47:29 GMT
Lordroel,
The sole Dutch aircraft manufacturer still operating in the early 1960s is Fokker; SABCA and Avions Fairey in Belgium do not produce their own aircraft. Increasingly, Fokker is being squeezed out of the market, as are similar sized companies across Europe. There will be some contractions and mergers in the future. The details of the Benelux contract will come soon in timeline terms.
Steve,
The British number from 1954 included Fighter Command, the Medium Bomber Force and the Canberra Light Bomber Force; in the case of Dark Earth, these are considered separately, as in the first two cases, they do not come under SHAPE control and in the third case the Canberras are being retired as their replacements enter service.
You are quite right regarding India in every respect; it is a different nation in a different position to @. A Non-Aligned Movement hasn't emerged.
Simon
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 25, 2020 18:00:32 GMT
Looking at the naval data compared to the 1954 target force, there are some interesting differences:
1954 Target:
4 Battleships
14 Aircraft Carriers
19 Light Fleet Carriers
40 Cruisers
267 Destroyers
136 Destroyer Escorts
329 Ocean Escorts/Frigates
186 Corvettes
181 Ocean Minesweepers
661 Coastal Minesweepers
212 Inshore Minesweepers
132 Submarines
463 Maritime Patrol Aircraft
89 MTBs
2 Marine Divisions + Amphibious Lift
- This force is informed by the nature of the Soviet threat: hundreds of submarines and a negligible surface force beyond cruisers.
- There was a substantial worry about the threat of the naval mine.
- The general strategy was one of combatting the Soviet Navy through convoying and escort, rather than direct attacks at the Kola Peninsula, partIcularly for the RN.
- It is dominated by the USN and RN
The Dark Earth mix is rather different.
- The Soviet Navy has a large surface fleet with carriers and battleships
- Guided missiles have entered the equation
- The nuclear submarine has changed the ASW problem, whilst there is also a big conventional surface threat
- The Reds are starting to build up a dangerous naval bomber threat
- The Floating Fortresses are a considerable strategic asset
- In response to the Soviet heavies, there are a lot of heavy surface ships in service
In the Eastern Atlantic, the RN has 8 fleet carriers, 12 battleships, 4 battlecruisers, 12+ cruisers, 56 guided missile or new destroyers, 48 older destroyers, 60 frigates, 24 SSNs; there is a nominal capacity of 4 CVL, but they are being replaced by new ships. Not all of these vessels are in service and ready to go at all times, naturally. The French Atlantic Fleet is a lot smaller, but still powerful, with 1 CVN, 1 CVA, 2 battleships, 2 battlecruisers, 6 cruisers, 10 destroyers, 12 frigates and 4 SSNs.
The RN (3) and French (1) contribute task forces to the Striking Fleet Atlantic alongside the Canadians (1) and USN (4), each consisting of 2 carriers and their escorts.
The Spanish and Portuguese deploy reasonable forces in their sector of the Atlantic, consisting of 2 CV, 2 BB, 6 CA, 15 DD and 10 FF and 2 CVL, 2 CA, 4 DD and 10 FF respectively.
The Dutch (1CVA, 2 BB, 1BCG, 2 CA, 8 DD) and half of the German fleet (2 CV, 2 BB, 2 CA, 4 DDG, 8 DD) operate in the North Sea with the RN, whilst the Dutch and Belgians also operate 10 destroyers and 24 frigates in the Channel Command and the Western Approaches Escort Force.
Norway has a small force of 1 coastal defence ship, 4 DDG, 6 FF, 6 SSK and a number of lighter combatants.
The German-Danish-Swedish Baltic Sea Fleet is well described previously.
The USN in the West Atlantic has 12 CV, 4 CVS, 12 BB, 6 BC, 24 CA, 108 DD, 80 DE, 34 SSN and 24 SS. The RCN has 3 CV, 3 BB, 7 CA, 21 DD, 45 DE/FF (+ 34 reserve) and 6 SSN.
I’ll tally up the Med forces and totals over the weekend.
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Post by lordroel on Jun 27, 2020 9:17:03 GMT
Seems more than 10,000 views fro this thread simon darkshade, making it the second most watch threads you have made on the forum so far. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 27, 2020 9:41:00 GMT
Well, that’s grand. I don’t really keep track of the views, looking more at the comments and what not.
I figure I might do a 1965 update of the principal powers. The only one I haven’t put up here yet is France, as I’ve been changing my mind for years over the French Army regimental system; by virtue of its size, the historical postwar situation of single battalion regiments is a non-starter. I might well pop up the divisional level Army and global deployments to go along with the Air Force and Navy, which are good to go. I’d also like to add Japan and Italy, which are fairly straightforward.
As a slightly linked issue, I might put together an in-universe report on the 1965 military situation and forecast.
Apart from those, any other orbat related requests?
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Post by lordroel on Jun 27, 2020 9:59:32 GMT
Well, that’s grand. I don’t really keep track of the views, looking more at the comments and what not. I figure I might do a 1965 update of the principal powers. The only one I haven’t put up here yet is France, as I’ve been changing my mind for years over the French Army regimental system; by virtue of its size, the historical postwar situation of single battalion regiments is a non-starter. I might well pop up the divisional level Army and global deployments to go along with the Air Force and Navy, which are good to go. I’d also like to add Japan and Italy, which are fairly straightforward. As a slightly linked issue, I might put together an in-universe report on the 1965 military situation and forecast. Apart from those, any other orbat related requests? Well a Brazil Orbat would be nice, i assume the are the biggest power on the South American continent i assume. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 27, 2020 11:57:59 GMT
Argentina is also quite large. Brazil has a decent fleet, a mixed air force of 1287 planes and an army of 16 infantry divisions and 1 armoured division.
The South American arms race is kicking off again in the mid 1960s.
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-possibly not that much in ground combat, although possibly with India having a role in supporting the allies in the ME and possibly part of SE Asia as well. Plus I would suspect there would be close contacts with the RN and other Commonwealth and allied nations in terms of operation in the Indian Ocean and neighbouring areas.