mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Aug 9, 2018 2:16:41 GMT
It will be interesting if various 2018 people decide to bring feminism, gay rights etc. to the Kaiser's Reich.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2018 2:53:01 GMT
It will be interesting if various 2018 people decide to bring feminism, gay rights etc. to the Kaiser's Reich. I think that will be the least of the problems the German Empire will have to deal with, preventing war with Russia and what remain of Poland might be bigger issue it will have to face.
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Aug 9, 2018 8:34:49 GMT
And Lithuania - The German Empire also included the Memel Land.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2018 9:41:22 GMT
And Lithuania - The German Empire also included the Memel Land.
Good point, although I think even 2018 Lithuania is possibly going to think before it takes on the 1913 German empire. However they might be happy to ally with someone else and Russia or Poland could be possibly candidates. Thinking about it, with his support for revanchism and militant nationalism Putin could well be the most dangerous threat as with NATO and the EU in turmoil he might go for 'reclaiming' Kalinnigrad. After all Imperial Germany is a member of neither of those organisations and Russia has a legal 2018 claim to it.
The nasty bit is he might offer support to the Poles to help them regain their lost territories but whether they would be rash enough to take such a poisoned chalice I doubt. They would be better making a claim to Posen and possibly some neighbouring regions which were majority Polish by diplomatic means.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2018 9:50:49 GMT
It will be interesting if various 2018 people decide to bring feminism, gay rights etc. to the Kaiser's Reich.
Well that would be one of the most explosive potential subjects. Also the questions of sexual and racial equality. [While imperial Germany has few/no non-European citizens if they interact with the modern world at all they will encounter such people from other nations and this could well be an issue.]
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Aug 9, 2018 10:16:23 GMT
Ah, another what-if-scenario... first of all - we have a scenario in that a few million people vanish, right? Because germany has parts of areas who are now other nations. Denmark - that is not a big problem, i also cannot see denmark trying to take that area in that now people live who are not really danish - in the moment. Belgium/Eupen-Malmedy: again, that area is now belgian, but the people NOW living in it (in that timeline) are deadly in opposition to be part of belgium. Elsaß-Lothringen: that is a part of a huge problem, because the mad french pride still exist today. So the french would want to take it, even if the majority of the people of it would be seen themselves as germans. But again, diplomacy could avoid a conflict. The memel-area - again a high german populated area, that is now german, but again full of germans, not suppressed baltics... i cannot see that state start a war because they want to kill/expulse peaceful germans from "german ground". It needed a genocidal war, in that the russians expulsed/killed the germans who had lived here for around 1000 years. Now to the huge problems East-prussia: OTL it was german, 100%. Nothing else. WW2 expulsed/slaughtered the germans here, then it was brought into russian area by settling russians here. These are lost- around 1 million russians, also very important military stuff has vanished. Russia will not, repeat not be happy. Russia is one of these states who could be start to kill the 2-3 million germans now (ASB-moved) here. But would Putin do that? He and others would think about "who did it?" - could they remove me and much of mother russia and replace it with the hunns? And that in the middle of the war with imperial germany, that now kill em all out of revenge?". But yes, i see a huge conflict brewing. The biggest problem in Europe: the OTL now polish areas - from these 1-2 million germans were killed, the others (8-10 Mio) brutal expulsed post ww2. But these people are in 1913... so no evil nazis to kill or kick out... also poland had lost what? 20-30 million people (these are gone - nobody knows to what place)... i think the acutal polish government would want to kill germans, but lack the ability to do so. Loosing nearly all important centres of industry and breaking down the logistics avoid this. The colonial areas are minor problems. there exist - for lets say 1-2 days - Tsingtau, then the chinese move in, find out that there are a few germans but dozens of millions of chinese who had lived here yesterday have vanished. Rabaul and co, ironically these areas are now german and most surrounding countries will have zero problems with that. Australia would offer deals to dump refugees here... the former US bases are lost, but because the coming back americans find "nothing", no infrastructure they had build i have problems to see em invading these places and start a war. Other areas have "lost" their nuclear troublesome areas, bikini-atoll is now back a peaceful place. Africa - yes, some german areas here would cause some troubles, on the other side - with the growing problems about resettlement most neighbours would be silent and wait for the big problem germany solved in europe. the next second the people run into "german area" and demand asyl. That could delay things here significantly... Compared with OTL, Deutsch-Ostafrika is a place in heaven... The biggest impact worldwide is the removal of the 4th largest economy and its replacement by a completly outdated 100 year old economy. This remove the core of the EU, but also the impact in world trade would be very negative. in opposition to dumb and borderline lying clichees the kaiser can do nothing in germany without the parliament. A parliament that quickly learn about - german history (esp., the failures of the kaiserliche Government and the follow up mess in weimar, the evil itself the nazis and the brutal wars and follow up time for germany) - neighbouring countries (negative impacts for UK, france, USA) - outdated election system - absolute outdated weaponary - even more outdated economy The people in germany quickly learn - equal rights for woman and gay people - that alone could keep imperial germany busy for 10-20 years, even if 1913-germany was much more liberal as the USA or UK, that jump is huge - social enviroments -ökological enviroments So germany will not do anything agressive, but will defend its borders. So no "belgian army move in" without a massive german military reaction (to name a random example). More important, think about all the people who lived in 1913 in germany... most of all a certain Albert Einstein... but the list is very long. These people were from the genius kind, so give em a year or two and germany suddenly has 10-20 super creative and very innovative smart brains, who will lead in their kind of science...and the rest of the scientists will die for the privilege to work with them. Naturally such ASB-events are silly, esp. because they kill 30-100 million people (all the people who live OTL in the german african colonies are gone, replaces by not 1/50 or 1/100 of the numbers), the same in poland. The Kaiser would be very interested in nuclear powered aircraft carriers, nuclear missles, propably a men on the moon (with the imperial flag waving).. germany as a nation would not be the same as OTL, so don´t expect the modern "we are guilty and we do what others want from us"-mentality the german politicans have today, but still - no war hungry shitheads who want to establish a protonazism regime (only very dumb people could think about that). Just like the transfer of any other country for 105 years you have a nation that suffers a gigantic cultural shock of incredible size. But two good things you get: we get rid of the green party and the SPD deserve its name again One question: what about a certain painter in munich? I think this person would be very quickly arrested, otherwise he vanishes after some israeli people have catched him...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2018 11:09:40 GMT
Ah, another what-if-scenario... first of all - we have a scenario in that a few million people vanish, right? Because germany has parts of areas who are now other nations. Denmark - that is not a big problem, i also cannot see denmark trying to take that area in that now people live who are not really danish - in the moment. Belgium/Eupen-Malmedy: again, that area is now belgian, but the people NOW living in it (in that timeline) are deadly in opposition to be part of belgium. Elsaß-Lothringen: that is a part of a huge problem, because the mad french pride still exist today. So the french would want to take it, even if the majority of the people of it would be seen themselves as germans. But again, diplomacy could avoid a conflict. The memel-area - again a high german populated area, that is now german, but again full of germans, not suppressed baltics... i cannot see that state start a war because they want to kill/expulse peaceful germans from "german ground". It needed a genocidal war, in that the russians expulsed/killed the germans who had lived here for around 1000 years. Now to the huge problems East-prussia: OTL it was german, 100%. Nothing else. WW2 expulsed/slaughtered the germans here, then it was brought into russian area by settling russians here. These are lost- around 1 million russians, also very important military stuff has vanished. Russia will not, repeat not be happy. Russia is one of these states who could be start to kill the 2-3 million germans now (ASB-moved) here. But would Putin do that? He and others would think about "who did it?" - could they remove me and much of mother russia and replace it with the hunns? And that in the middle of the war with imperial germany, that now kill em all out of revenge?". But yes, i see a huge conflict brewing. The biggest problem in Europe: the OTL now polish areas - from these 1-2 million germans were killed, the others (8-10 Mio) brutal expulsed post ww2. But these people are in 1913... so no evil nazis to kill or kick out... also poland had lost what? 20-30 million people (these are gone - nobody knows to what place)... i think the acutal polish government would want to kill germans, but lack the ability to do so. Loosing nearly all important centres of industry and breaking down the logistics avoid this.(A)The colonial areas are minor problems. there exist - for lets say 1-2 days - Tsingtau, then the chinese move in, find out that there are a few germans but dozens of millions of chinese who had lived here yesterday have vanished. Rabaul and co, ironically these areas are now german and most surrounding countries will have zero problems with that. Australia would offer deals to dump refugees here... the former US bases are lost, but because the coming back americans find "nothing", no infrastructure they had build i have problems to see em invading these places and start a war. Other areas have "lost" their nuclear troublesome areas, bikini-atoll is now back a peaceful place. Africa - yes, some german areas here would cause some troubles, on the other side - with the growing problems about resettlement most neighbours would be silent and wait for the big problem germany solved in europe. the next second the people run into "german area" and demand asyl. That could delay things here significantly... Compared with OTL, Deutsch-Ostafrika is a place in heaven... (B)The biggest impact worldwide is the removal of the 4th largest economy and its replacement by a completly outdated 100 year old economy. This remove the core of the EU, but also the impact in world trade would be very negative. in opposition to dumb and borderline lying clichees the kaiser can do nothing in germany without the parliament. A parliament that quickly learn about - german history (esp., the failures of the kaiserliche Government and the follow up mess in weimar, the evil itself the nazis and the brutal wars and follow up time for germany) - neighbouring countries (negative impacts for UK, france, USA) - outdated election system - absolute outdated weaponary - even more outdated economy The people in germany quickly learn - equal rights for woman and gay people - that alone could keep imperial germany busy for 10-20 years, even if 1913-germany was much more liberal as the USA or UK, that jump is huge - social enviroments -ökological enviroments So germany will not do anything agressive, but will defend its borders. So no "belgian army move in" without a massive german military reaction (to name a random example). More important, think about all the people who lived in 1913 in germany... most of all a certain Albert Einstein... but the list is very long. These people were from the genius kind, so give em a year or two and germany suddenly has 10-20 super creative and very innovative smart brains, who will lead in their kind of science...and the rest of the scientists will die for the privilege to work with them. Naturally such ASB-events are silly, esp. because they kill 30-100 million people (all the people who live OTL in the german african colonies are gone, replaces by not 1/50 or 1/100 of the numbers), the same in poland. The Kaiser would be very interested in nuclear powered aircraft carriers, nuclear missles, propably a men on the moon (with the imperial flag waving).. germany as a nation would not be the same as OTL, so don´t expect the modern "we are guilty and we do what others want from us"-mentality the german politicans have today, but still - no war hungry shitheads who want to establish a protonazism regime (only very dumb people could think about that). Just like the transfer of any other country for 105 years you have a nation that suffers a gigantic cultural shock of incredible size. But two good things you get: we get rid of the green party and the SPD deserve its name again One question: what about a certain painter in munich? I think this person would be very quickly arrested, otherwise he vanishes after some israeli people have catched him...
Steffen
A) - I think that's an outrageous statement. The Poles would probably have the power to regain by force their western territory but they would not carry out a campaign of extermination, even if the rest of the world would allow it, which they wouldn't. They may or may not recognise that the fact most of that region is majority German would make it a very difficult territory to hold however so other than the majority Polish areas they may accept their losses.
B) - The German colonies were paradises for their white colonisations but one of the worst campaigns of extermination has recently [to the 1913 people] been carried out in what's now Namibia. Also outright racist regimes are not going to be tolerated by either the neighbouring African states or the rest of the world. Partly I agree for political reasons and questions of self-interest as well as morale reasons but no way the empire in Africa will survive.
Also I won't be as confident as you that if given the choice the majority of the population of Alsace-Lorraine might choose French over German citizenship.
Steve
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mullauna
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Post by mullauna on Aug 9, 2018 15:13:09 GMT
Himmler is only thirteen when ISOT'd and Goebbels is sixteen... Would the Israelis execute two innocent German children?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2018 15:17:35 GMT
Himmler is only thirteen when ISOT'd and Goebbels is sixteen... Would the Israelis execute two innocent German children? Lets agree they will not, as i doubt the German Empire will be happy when other modern countries are taking their children away. My argument is that you can not punish a person in the past for a crime he is going to do in the future, and yes i know some people will have no problem saying that killing a young boy of 13 is not a problem, it is for me, as he is not the older person who has done those crimes yet, and thus he should not be punished for them.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Aug 10, 2018 9:15:56 GMT
Ah, another what-if-scenario... first of all - we have a scenario in that a few million people vanish, right? Because germany has parts of areas who are now other nations. Denmark - that is not a big problem, i also cannot see denmark trying to take that area in that now people live who are not really danish - in the moment. Belgium/Eupen-Malmedy: again, that area is now belgian, but the people NOW living in it (in that timeline) are deadly in opposition to be part of belgium. Elsaß-Lothringen: that is a part of a huge problem, because the mad french pride still exist today. So the french would want to take it, even if the majority of the people of it would be seen themselves as germans. But again, diplomacy could avoid a conflict. The memel-area - again a high german populated area, that is now german, but again full of germans, not suppressed baltics... i cannot see that state start a war because they want to kill/expulse peaceful germans from "german ground". It needed a genocidal war, in that the russians expulsed/killed the germans who had lived here for around 1000 years. Now to the huge problems East-prussia: OTL it was german, 100%. Nothing else. WW2 expulsed/slaughtered the germans here, then it was brought into russian area by settling russians here. These are lost- around 1 million russians, also very important military stuff has vanished. Russia will not, repeat not be happy. Russia is one of these states who could be start to kill the 2-3 million germans now (ASB-moved) here. But would Putin do that? He and others would think about "who did it?" - could they remove me and much of mother russia and replace it with the hunns? And that in the middle of the war with imperial germany, that now kill em all out of revenge?". But yes, i see a huge conflict brewing. The biggest problem in Europe: the OTL now polish areas - from these 1-2 million germans were killed, the others (8-10 Mio) brutal expulsed post ww2. But these people are in 1913... so no evil nazis to kill or kick out... also poland had lost what? 20-30 million people (these are gone - nobody knows to what place)... i think the acutal polish government would want to kill germans, but lack the ability to do so. Loosing nearly all important centres of industry and breaking down the logistics avoid this.(A)The colonial areas are minor problems. there exist - for lets say 1-2 days - Tsingtau, then the chinese move in, find out that there are a few germans but dozens of millions of chinese who had lived here yesterday have vanished. Rabaul and co, ironically these areas are now german and most surrounding countries will have zero problems with that. Australia would offer deals to dump refugees here... the former US bases are lost, but because the coming back americans find "nothing", no infrastructure they had build i have problems to see em invading these places and start a war. Other areas have "lost" their nuclear troublesome areas, bikini-atoll is now back a peaceful place. Africa - yes, some german areas here would cause some troubles, on the other side - with the growing problems about resettlement most neighbours would be silent and wait for the big problem germany solved in europe. the next second the people run into "german area" and demand asyl. That could delay things here significantly... Compared with OTL, Deutsch-Ostafrika is a place in heaven... (B)The biggest impact worldwide is the removal of the 4th largest economy and its replacement by a completly outdated 100 year old economy. This remove the core of the EU, but also the impact in world trade would be very negative. in opposition to dumb and borderline lying clichees the kaiser can do nothing in germany without the parliament. A parliament that quickly learn about - german history (esp., the failures of the kaiserliche Government and the follow up mess in weimar, the evil itself the nazis and the brutal wars and follow up time for germany) - neighbouring countries (negative impacts for UK, france, USA) - outdated election system - absolute outdated weaponary - even more outdated economy The people in germany quickly learn - equal rights for woman and gay people - that alone could keep imperial germany busy for 10-20 years, even if 1913-germany was much more liberal as the USA or UK, that jump is huge - social enviroments -ökological enviroments So germany will not do anything agressive, but will defend its borders. So no "belgian army move in" without a massive german military reaction (to name a random example). More important, think about all the people who lived in 1913 in germany... most of all a certain Albert Einstein... but the list is very long. These people were from the genius kind, so give em a year or two and germany suddenly has 10-20 super creative and very innovative smart brains, who will lead in their kind of science...and the rest of the scientists will die for the privilege to work with them. Naturally such ASB-events are silly, esp. because they kill 30-100 million people (all the people who live OTL in the german african colonies are gone, replaces by not 1/50 or 1/100 of the numbers), the same in poland. The Kaiser would be very interested in nuclear powered aircraft carriers, nuclear missles, propably a men on the moon (with the imperial flag waving).. germany as a nation would not be the same as OTL, so don´t expect the modern "we are guilty and we do what others want from us"-mentality the german politicans have today, but still - no war hungry shitheads who want to establish a protonazism regime (only very dumb people could think about that). Just like the transfer of any other country for 105 years you have a nation that suffers a gigantic cultural shock of incredible size. But two good things you get: we get rid of the green party and the SPD deserve its name again One question: what about a certain painter in munich? I think this person would be very quickly arrested, otherwise he vanishes after some israeli people have catched him...
Steffen
A) - I think that's an outrageous statement. The Poles would probably have the power to regain by force their western territory but they would not carry out a campaign of extermination, even if the rest of the world would allow it, which they wouldn't. They may or may not recognise that the fact most of that region is majority German would make it a very difficult territory to hold however so other than the majority Polish areas they may accept their losses.
B) - The German colonies were paradises for their white colonisations but one of the worst campaigns of extermination has recently [to the 1913 people] been carried out in what's now Namibia. Also outright racist regimes are not going to be tolerated by either the neighbouring African states or the rest of the world. Partly I agree for political reasons and questions of self-interest as well as morale reasons but no way the empire in Africa will survive.
Also I won't be as confident as you that if given the choice the majority of the population of Alsace-Lorraine might choose French over German citizenship.
Steve
The ultra right wing nationalistic government would want to kill germans, after all they will blame them for the death of 20-30 million poles. With the OTL history of nazi germany (and their mass killings of poles) the GOVERNMENT (not the people) would demand german blood. Read twice and carefully. Not the polish people would demand that, esp. after they learn that many "polish" people have transfered, too. But the government? Hell yes, these proto-facists (belive it or not, i have neighbours from poland, who often visit relatives there - the stories they told are much worse as anything you here in media) would look for someone who is to blame for. About Elsaß-Lothringen - nope. Most people there had been germans in 1913. The majority of them would choose germany. You mix the post1918-with expulsion-thing with 1913. German colonies were quite good for the natives, compared to the other colonials, esp. the brits were much worser. Only because you belive the lying propaganda of the british empire doesn´t make this true. German officials were quite hard if someone tried to rebell (kill settlers, etc.), but overall the german autorities build infrastructure, schools and healthcare. Natives in german colonies had better living conditions as in any other colonies.. again to much lying propaganda... that doesn´t make colonialism by the germans good, in oppostion colonisation is pure evil by its definition. Allways. The german system was "Zuckerbrot und Peitsche", but the Zuckerbrot - as long as the natives did not rebell was better as the treatment by french british or italian masters. So the germans were brutal if you rebell, but "good" if you accept their rule. Esp. after 1905 - as the german government took care about the colonies. One point to remember, the hereros were "motivated" with arms by outlandish persons, (hint - they spoke english), they started to kill white woman and kids. Something NO colonial government treated lightly. In germany the reaction to the behaviour of the leading officer was quite clear, they were totally opposed and he got removed from power. Compare that with the belgian congo, who made more fuss or the usual mass starvings the british did to "calm down" their colonies, the brutal war against the philippines in the same time by the USA. It wasn´t uncommon. It is clear that the british (lying) propaganda tried to enlarge that (it was brutal, criminal and a shame), ignoring the own 100x worse crimes of colonialism. As usual - the splinter in the finger of the "enemy" is bad, the tree in the own eyes are not. But to just make this cristal clear - colonialism per definition was evil. ALLWAYS. With colonialism teleported in the modern time we face a problem, one that would be dominated by the politics in the surrounding nations. In 1913 the natives in the colonies were "pacified" or lived without resistance, the surrounding nations - as i wrote - would sit an wait -because if these colonies stay "german" they do not need to move 2-3000km to the north, risky sea transport to reach europe, they now can just cross a jungle border and claim asyl. Still, were a millions of (black) people who have vanished, light settled areas once, now full of people - replaced by "old order"-stuff. That is the major problem with such scenarios... Germany as a nation would be weak, the military would understood it, so they would not support any war. They would defend themself, if needed, knowing that the situation is helpless. The politicans would know it, too... the Kaiser would be loud, esp. if asked by foreign media, but again he was sidelined allready pre-war, because without the parliament he couldn´t do something. IN germany instead of the 1918-revolution that removed the kingdoms you see an evolution, either in the british style (some moron king as head, without power) or true democratic establishments. They all could read, informations about the history they had been saved from would be open to them. So no "evil hun plan agressive acts", more a "we need to modernize our county" + "woman fight for 100% equality from day 1" (instead of 50 years of liberation fighting)... the military nerds would visit germany, you could see the famous imperial navy, full of Dreadnoughts, Pre-D, cruisers, etc. life and in color... these ships quickly would be out of order, maybe they sell some, make a museum (i could see Derfflinger, Lützow and Seydlitz, but als Schleswig-Holstein) out of them. The core different to modern germany will be, that these people are "true" nationalistics, so they first think "what good is it for us" instead of "we need to care for others because of our history". That is a fundamental difference, basically imperial germany would be similar to Thatcher-greatbritain... add in the problems with the EU (Imperial germany could be taken in, but without the problem Elsaß-Lothringen solved france allways would veto it) and that their economy need to modernize (that need - with (chinese, japanese or russian) help 10 years, without 25 years) and the threat by the polish government. Germany also now has a STRONG and - shocked by the things the nazis commited in their "future" our past - very sensible jewish minority (around 500k), in the same time the science in germany would be MUCh stronger as today. Basically from a backyard nation to the new number one (in manpower), in 5 years latest. Germany would want nukes, because the example of iran, iraq, north korea make crystal clear that you need em. The UN still has its "hostile clause", this could be triggered - but imperial germany would not join the UN without the removal of it. That scenario is a can of worms... best case scenario: Polands government crash, because the loss of so many people and their "need to kill huns"-attitude kill their base. In the same time germany and poland open their borders and work in joint-ventures, with the chance for some border regions to get "back" to poland, if the people want it. Free trade rights are a needed given (poland suddenly is landlocked again). Poland and germany would be no friends, but maybe both hit hard by the crisis could find a peaceful solution. The colonies - after it is clear that germany would not allow refugees "in" would be lost - as was mentioned, by african warlords, maybe the germans would try to keep Deutsch-Südwest, because of the ressources (here they could "win", but overall i doubt it), maybe germany make a deal - give these areas to the UN for credits (and support in economic terms) so the UN could "start the ideal african areas"... the pacific colonies are less problematic. in 1913 thin settled, the islands could be german areas, new guinea and the islands around Rabaul would also need to get independence - maybe with a 20 year-term? the atolls could be a nice "german" tourist area, with infrastructure investments and modern education to bring em to "german levels". Eastprussia is a problem, because nobody knows what russia would want to do. Either a conflict that germany loose (with lots of dead civilians) or another deal (germany need modern energy, untill their nuclear power plants (they will want them) are build they need lots of "clean" energy - so russian gas is needed)... the internal reforms of imperial germany - i see them turn pacifistic (as usual germans want to be the "best" - why that is so, i have no clue about - myself isn´t that way), but with a strong defence force. With the kaiser ruling (as a leaflet), i see some large aircraft carriers in 20 years, nuclear powered subs, such things. But the army is reduced, but make sure that neither poland nor france could threaten them. With france having nukes germany will want them, too. Otherwise they would want to rebuild their economy, infrastructure and the most men have to fight with "rebellious" wifes because these would no longer "obey" their men. Death penalty could get lost, esp. if the SPD - that would rule the next 20 years (for the conservatives it would be cheap - they could allways blame the "reds") would want to establish some "new" european union. the old EU would be dead like a dodo, because france would never allow germany in with elsaß-lothringen not back, but if germany loose elsaß-lothringen by force to france, they would not work with the french. THis problem isn´t one you could solve. Germany 1913 was deadly hostile to france.. only if france act "perfectly" they would with some time loose this attitude, but i cannot see france doing that (from their POV, with the french "ultra"-nationalism, with LePen hanging around) that is impossible. The Nazi criminals who are kids now, they would be either killed (by Mossad) or under HEAVY inspections... the nazi criminals who are old enough - dead or also under heavy inspections... Hitler would be dead (by Mossad), because i cannot see the Israelis not killing the man who ordered the death of 6 million helpless and innocent jewish woman, kids and men. Nope. The best thing would be, the german state would kill him, after an (unfair) process for crimes he would commit. But i cannot see em doing this. Unfortunatly this germany would have 20-25% of people we modern people would call "ultra right wing conservatives", who also try to kill politicans (like Stresemann who would be a star in this time) or Rathenau...
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Aug 10, 2018 9:21:14 GMT
Himmler is only thirteen when ISOT'd and Goebbels is sixteen... Would the Israelis execute two innocent German children? Lets agree they will not, as i doubt the German Empire will be happy when other modern countries are taking their children away. My argument is that you can not punish a person in the past for a crime he is going to do in the future, and yes i know some people will have no problem saying that killing a young boy of 13 is not a problem, it is for me, as he is not the older person who has done those crimes yet, and thus he should not be punished for them. I doubt that Himmler would survive... even as a kid... he is the person who organized the holocaust. Hitler is dead. Period. The main question - german general von Trotha live. he is the "war criminal nr1" in that scenario, he need to be punished. So maybe some black activist kills him (basically from a neighbouring state, or say some US seals doing it privatly)...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 10, 2018 9:24:49 GMT
Steffen Your talking crap again. You keep getting blinded by your bigotry.
You need to accept that other people can have different views from what you consider those of Germany without automatically considering them as being evil and having a rabid hatred of Germany. Plus actually learn some history outside of extreme German nationalistic viewpoints.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 10, 2018 9:43:31 GMT
Lets agree they will not, as i doubt the German Empire will be happy when other modern countries are taking their children away. My argument is that you can not punish a person in the past for a crime he is going to do in the future, and yes i know some people will have no problem saying that killing a young boy of 13 is not a problem, it is for me, as he is not the older person who has done those crimes yet, and thus he should not be punished for them. I doubt that Himmler would survive... even as a kid... he is the person who organized the holocaust. Hitler is dead. Period. Okay steffen , we can all have different views on matters but i do not support the killing of children ore young people, regardless if they in OTL have done horrible things when they where adults but here with a German Empire ISOT are still young and might have different lives all together, you can not punish a child for a crime his adult version of a different place will commit.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Aug 13, 2018 16:46:06 GMT
I doubt that Himmler would survive... even as a kid... he is the person who organized the holocaust. Hitler is dead. Period. Okay steffen , we can all have different views on matters but i do not support the killing of children ore young people, regardless if they in OTL have done horrible things when they where adults but here with a German Empire ISOT are still young and might have different lives all together, you can not punish a child for a crime his adult version of a different place will commit. Hi, i do not support "killing kids"... i just think about how the world, here esp. the israeli special forces react to the fact that Himmler, the person who has a MAJOR impact on mass murdering 6 million jews live. If you think i would support killing him, sorry, that isn´t true. I just guess that the israelis, or the russians would think so morale integer as we could discuss it. It is similar to "what if Adolf Hitler from 1944 is brought to 2018", in germany, in berlin. The german police will arrest him, but what will we do with him? Imprison him for crimes against humanity? For sure. But how many nations would demand that he got delivered to them (and these nations, from the USA to russia to israel) would not keep him alive? It is nothing i would advocate... but if we talk about ASB-timewarps, we have to discuss things that are realistic. Just like "what would we, the western society - do with people who had been absolute criminal monsters in our past". That is a morale problem, esp. for states (like poland, israel) who suffered in that terrible way by these criminals. I am deadly opposite to "kill for future crimes", but my opinion isn´t the only one. But if you dislike these ideas, we could drop em. No problem for me. Still there are open questions about them. In a positive way we could discuss the impact of Albert Einstein, Nils Bohr (he was in 1913 in germany), Otto Hahn and many many other great scientists who suddenly live and could use modern technology to advance their ideas... think about Lise Meitner working full in a modern lab... say 200-1000 highly trained and educated intelligent people want to help Bohr, Einstein, Meitner and Hahn to fullfill modern science... puh... but like allways, there is light and shaddows... and the question "what would "we" do with the criminals of Nazi germany" is one that is hard to anwer without such thinking. If you remember, i wrote the only safe assumption is that Adolf Hitler will die, quickly or after a process... propably in Israel. And i couldn´t blame em for doing that - even if it violates anything we belive in modern times (you have to be guilty for punishment). But what should we do with him, the creator of Nazi germany, the mad man who orchestrated the holocaust, who planned to exterminate 80-100 million people in the east, because they were "inferior blood" (slaves)? These are dimensions beyond our imagination, at last for me. I read the plot, think about it and try to write the most realistic result. That isn´t a pleasure, i wished it would be different.. but people are - well people. But to open the question - there exist a really "bad" fake-comercial about Mercedes-Benz and Adolf Hitler... "avoids danger before it exists"... it is dark humor, but it has a hard and brutal core. If you could timetravel back to 1889, would you kill baby-hitler? Nobody need to answer this question, but if we have timetravelling events like the described in the plot, we are forced to at last discuss such things, or not?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 13, 2018 18:26:21 GMT
Okay steffen , we can all have different views on matters but i do not support the killing of children ore young people, regardless if they in OTL have done horrible things when they where adults but here with a German Empire ISOT are still young and might have different lives all together, you can not punish a child for a crime his adult version of a different place will commit. Hi, i do not support "killing kids"... i just think about how the world, here esp. the israeli special forces react to the fact that Himmler, the person who has a MAJOR impact on mass murdering 6 million jews live. If you think i would support killing him, sorry, that isn´t true. I just guess that the israelis, or the russians would think so morale integer as we could discuss it. Think Israeli might have other things to worry about, like a giant European crisis which will be global due the loss of of he number 4 major economy in the world.
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