steffen
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Post by steffen on Apr 9, 2018 20:06:47 GMT
Japan will keep its taken areas, but pay money for them. Germany took New Caledonia from france for that. They will try to bind the dutch to them, so they also have an operation base for their navy... and another source of oil, rubber, tin and other stuff they need. The netherlands in 1914 were neutral and - as far as i know quite pro-german, i can´t say this will be the same in this scenario, but if they are in the Mitteleuropa-concept the germans would push, they could benefit a lot. Still neutral in mlitary things, ordering battleships in german yards, making money... you get the concept. The danes will be very silent, they do not gain what they get OTL, but otherwise they had nothing to fear from germany. Closing the straits is a given, otherwise they are left alone. Italy - italy was opportunistic. Here italy made lots of money by staying neutral. Italy will not be open hostile to germany or AH, they will be neutral. Their interests in the balkan are doomed, but the question is will this italy (no Mussolini) risk its existence to fight germany? What could they gain? Nothing, just millions of deaths for british glory? Really - i can´t see them doing this. Also - making money with germany helps em a lot. So why risking this? Germany would need italian workers, esp. with france broken and no longer able to absorb the italian workers... i see em going to germany... The Netherlands staying a pro-German neutral after the war has ended is very possible, especially if they get lucrative trade agreements and a guarantee of inpendence from Berlin (the Dutch were not German and had no interest in becoming German). As for ordering Battleships in German ports, that was actually considered OTL so three modernised Bayern-class in the early twenties is not out of the question. Japan certainly won't like it but (considering they flat out couldn't afford their current naval exspansion) it is not like they could do much about it. After that, depending on how ambitious/offensive-minded they are/threathening Japan is, they may also decide to build a Class of carriers. I actually think that Italy may have decided to enter the war on the side of the Central Powers if they saw that France was done for and Great Britain was unable to help. It may have been a blatant act of jumping on the winners wagon but this way they had at least some leverage to get Trentino and Austrian Littoral like the CP had promised. I agree... the dutch were "pro-german neutrals" in ww1, but no friends. in such a scenario the germans would try to bring the dutch into their economic sphere... with lack of money to keep their own yards busy they will be VERY interested in building dutch battleships. These could be even much better as everything the germans have on their own. Here the german navy beated twice the Royal Navy in large battles, so the "fame" of german battleships would be high. The dutch would propably get a huge discount on these ships, maybe in combination with some contracts for destroyers and cruisers? So the german yards are busy, without the german reich financing it. Such ships - if the british build their HMS-Hood-design (quite possible), could be strong enough to counter the Nagatos... so something along a 4x2 or 4x3 15"-gun-ship, german defence system, oil fired propulsion. 350mm belt, 100-120mm deck, 2 floatplanes, propably 4-5 torpedo tubes, propably 60cm-torpedos (the new ones!). Secondaries could be either allready turrets, but i think they will build the first ones (say 4, 2 and 2 modified?) with casematte-guns. Such ships could be around 235x34x9m, around 27kn fast, 1250 crew, later 1500 (with additional AA guns), range 6000nm at 12kn, oil fired, around 43-44.000ts full loaded? Cruisers could be 10.000ts, either 8x21cm (4x2) or 8x15cm (4x2) for 7000ts... 30kn, oil fired, 12 torpedos, minelaying capacity... (both), range around 5000-6000nm at 12kn, both also 1-2 float planes. Destroyers could be around 1600ts, 4x1 10,5 - 12cm (depends, the germans had to small guns, but the dutch could demand 12cm - just like the british), 2x3 60cm-torpedos, minelaying capacity, 34kn, 2500nm at 20kn, oil fired? Destroyers start to be build from 1921 on, cruisers from 1919-20 on, battleships around 1920 - first 2, 1923 second 2. Fleet is:24 destroyers, 3 heavy, 4 light cruisers, 4 battleships... additional tankers and propably 1-2 seaplanetenders (1920), later a full carrier with 20 scouts (something based on a warship hull, reaching 22-23kn, only light AA guns) Later subs - german diesels are on the lead, so why should the dutch not ask them to build these? Germany had - at last OTL - no interest in taking the netherlands and force em to be german, so there would be a treaty and common interests.. joining economically Mitteleuropa mean a lot benefits That is still no love and marriage, but it could be "the" neutral state that beneifit and attract other countries (sweden, denmark, maybe spain, italy? romania) to join in. Mitteleuropa will be Germany, AH, Bulgaria, Poland (puppet), Baltic dutchy (puppet), serbia (puppet) The osman empire is a candidate to join in
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Apr 9, 2018 20:13:50 GMT
The Netherlands staying a pro-German neutral after the war has ended is very possible, especially if they get lucrative trade agreements and a guarantee of inpendence from Berlin (the Dutch were not German and had no interest in becoming German). As for ordering Battleships in German ports, that was actually considered OTL so three modernised Bayern-class in the early twenties is not out of the question. Japan certainly won't like it but (considering they flat out couldn't afford their current naval exspansion) it is not like they could do much about it. After that, depending on how ambitious/offensive-minded they are/threathening Japan is, they may also decide to build a Class of carriers. I actually think that Italy may have decided to enter the war on the side of the Central Powers if they saw that France was done for and Great Britain was unable to help. It may have been a blatant act of jumping on the winners wagon but this way they had at least some leverage to get Trentino and Austrian Littoral like the CP had promised. Its possible but then the experience of Belgium could cool that markedly, as it raises serious questions over the value of any treaty with Germany. The Dutch did have plans to buy ships from Germany and may do so after the war but that doesn't necessarily mean being allied or even pro-German, other than possibly due to fear. They might they might not. Italy might try jumping in when France looks doomed but then their loot would almost certainly come from a defeated France as I can't see Austria being willing to give up territory to a bitter rival. Especially since they have excellent defensive lines against Italy and the litteroral area is actually pretty useful economically to Austria. Not to mention the Croats, who have traditionally been loyal to the dynasty are unlikely to be happy with giving up their coastline to Italy. More likely they end up with say Tunisia and possibly Corsica and French East Africa. OTL the dutch were friendly and pro-german. The brutal and evil behaviour of the british was for sure important for that, also the bad treatment of neutral rights. Here - it depends how badly the british violate international laws... if they act as OTL, the dutch will recognize that belgium was "in the way"- also they see how belgium is post war treated. i wrote some stuff about it. Italy would not join, because the CP would not allow that. Italy needs to act early, if they go in late, the Central powers let them suffer. They will make clear that italy need to rethink about returning the dodocanes to the osmans... maybe some deal like "corsica for the dodocannes" could be negotiated, but the idea that - with france falling appart and after millions of casulties - the italians could disturb the post-war situation is wrong. ut you are right, austria will not give a square inch of ground to italy... also albania is taboo... In any conflict "osmans versus italy" the germans and esp. the austrians will massivly support the osmans. So you could be right that italy will be (secretly) angered about this, because they will see it as their gods given right to act that sneaky way. I just think betraying both sides, first the Central powers (as they saw it!) and then the defeated Entente - this could end VERY bad for italy.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 11, 2018 14:58:04 GMT
Its possible but then the experience of Belgium could cool that markedly, as it raises serious questions over the value of any treaty with Germany. The Dutch did have plans to buy ships from Germany and may do so after the war but that doesn't necessarily mean being allied or even pro-German, other than possibly due to fear. They might they might not. Italy might try jumping in when France looks doomed but then their loot would almost certainly come from a defeated France as I can't see Austria being willing to give up territory to a bitter rival. Especially since they have excellent defensive lines against Italy and the litteroral area is actually pretty useful economically to Austria. Not to mention the Croats, who have traditionally been loyal to the dynasty are unlikely to be happy with giving up their coastline to Italy. More likely they end up with say Tunisia and possibly Corsica and French East Africa. OTL the dutch were friendly and pro-german. The brutal and evil behaviour of the british was for sure important for that, also the bad treatment of neutral rights. Here - it depends how badly the british violate international laws... if they act as OTL, the dutch will recognize that belgium was "in the way"- also they see how belgium is post war treated. i wrote some stuff about it. Ever heard when Queen Wilhelmina told Kaiser Wilhelm II when he boasted that his guard-troops were 7ft tall Queen Wilhelmina reminded him that if the Dutch opened their dikes the water would be 10ft deep. But i think that opinion might change especially if the Netherlands is surrounded by the Germans,
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 11, 2018 17:44:56 GMT
OTL the dutch were friendly and pro-german. The brutal and evil behaviour of the british was for sure important for that, also the bad treatment of neutral rights. Here - it depends how badly the british violate international laws... if they act as OTL, the dutch will recognize that belgium was "in the way"- also they see how belgium is post war treated. i wrote some stuff about it. Ever heard when Queen Wilhelmina told Kaiser Wilhelm II when he boasted that his guard-troops were 7ft tall Queen Wilhelmina reminded him that if the Dutch opened their dikes the water would be 10ft deep. But i think that opinion might change especially if the Netherlands is surrounded by the Germans, Well the Germans had plans for invading both the Netherlands and Denmark but lack the troops to do it so the two nations escaped OTL. TTL the brutal treatment of Belgium by Germany with either bring out appeasement in the Dutch or a determination to resist. Not to mention the looting of the Belgium colonial empire is going to be an additional threat to the Dutch considering the importance of the DEI economically.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 11, 2018 17:46:37 GMT
Ever heard when Queen Wilhelmina told Kaiser Wilhelm II when he boasted that his guard-troops were 7ft tall Queen Wilhelmina reminded him that if the Dutch opened their dikes the water would be 10ft deep. But i think that opinion might change especially if the Netherlands is surrounded by the Germans, Well the Germans had plans for invading both the Netherlands and Denmark but lack the troops to do it so the two nations escaped OTL. TTL the brutal treatment of Belgium by Germany with either bring out appeasement in the Dutch or a determination to resist. Not to mention the looting of the Belgium colonial empire is going to be an additional threat to the Dutch considering the importance of the DEI economically. I would love to see those plans for a German invasion of the Netherlands during the Great War, but the Netherlands might have to work with Germany to keep Japan at bay, ore am i wrong.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 11, 2018 18:13:10 GMT
Well the Germans had plans for invading both the Netherlands and Denmark but lack the troops to do it so the two nations escaped OTL. TTL the brutal treatment of Belgium by Germany with either bring out appeasement in the Dutch or a determination to resist. Not to mention the looting of the Belgium colonial empire is going to be an additional threat to the Dutch considering the importance of the DEI economically. I would love to see those plans for a German invasion of the Netherlands during the Great War, but the Netherlands might have to work with Germany to keep Japan at bay, ore am i wrong. Well in this scenario the Dutch will have to decide who are the greatest threat. Either Germany or Japan. If Japan has tried its OTL bid to dominate China then both will seem threatening. I did have a brief look but only points I could find was early versions of what's called the Schlieffen Plan, although that was later dropped because they didn't have the troops to conform to Schlieffen's initial idea, especially when Russia moblised quicker than they expected. Know I had read of it and plans for Denmark but how serious they might have been I don't know. Think the initial Schlieffen suggestion was largely for the Limburg section in the south to widen the attack on Belgium and hence bypass some of the Belgium defences.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 11, 2018 18:26:08 GMT
I would love to see those plans for a German invasion of the Netherlands during the Great War, but the Netherlands might have to work with Germany to keep Japan at bay, ore am i wrong. Well in this scenario the Dutch will have to decide who are the greatest threat. Either Germany or Japan. If Japan has tried its OTL bid to dominate China then both will seem threatening. Wich could effect their shipbuilding program.
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Post by eurowatch on Apr 11, 2018 19:45:00 GMT
Well the Germans had plans for invading both the Netherlands and Denmark but lack the troops to do it so the two nations escaped OTL. TTL the brutal treatment of Belgium by Germany with either bring out appeasement in the Dutch or a determination to resist. Not to mention the looting of the Belgium colonial empire is going to be an additional threat to the Dutch considering the importance of the DEI economically. I would love to see those plans for a German invasion of the Netherlands during the Great War, but the Netherlands might have to work with Germany to keep Japan at bay, ore am i wrong. TTL the DEI is not just under threat from Japan, France, Britain and Australia are also going to attack when war breaks out. And while Australia and France Will both have neglictible fleets to fight a powerful Dutch-German fleet, Britain and Japan are going to bring some powerful Battleships to the table. Best to start mass Production of bombers.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Apr 12, 2018 8:29:32 GMT
I would love to see those plans for a German invasion of the Netherlands during the Great War, but the Netherlands might have to work with Germany to keep Japan at bay, ore am i wrong. Well in this scenario the Dutch will have to decide who are the greatest threat. Either Germany or Japan. If Japan has tried its OTL bid to dominate China then both will seem threatening. I did have a brief look but only points I could find was early versions of what's called the Schlieffen Plan, although that was later dropped because they didn't have the troops to conform to Schlieffen's initial idea, especially when Russia moblised quicker than they expected. Know I had read of it and plans for Denmark but how serious they might have been I don't know. Think the initial Schlieffen suggestion was largely for the Limburg section in the south to widen the attack on Belgium and hence bypass some of the Belgium defences. That is in any points not correct. Yes - the original Schlieffen-plan involved a march through the netherlands. But - as the whole thing - it was just something to get more money for a larger army. Moltke also did not follow that plan, but had his own. It is very simple thinking to belive, just because some Plan existed that this is an evidence for the real motivation. Germany had a plan to "invade" the USA, UK and USA had abundance of plans, many - even in the 20ties - saw invasion of the other nation. It would be stupid to claim "USA planned to invade canada, that is evidence they would do that". Beside this, the germans even hoped (silly morons) that belgium would not fight the germans. The germans also did not know how fast the russians could mobilize - thanks to the "useless" railroads, that had been build prewar with french credits. If the germans had known how fast the russians mobilize they would have also known that their hope on a swift victory wouldn´t be possible. Their idea was: a.) take out france - similar to 1870 and then turn and fight the large russian army, the "steamroller" after that - to avoid a two-front-war b.) do all as fast as possible, so your forces are home at christmas. The dutch were pro german in ww1, they were neutrals, they would not join one side. But they tended to be pro-german, esp. after the evil crimes commited by the Entente (and the USA) against the dutch shipping and generally how they treated the neutrals. With germany winning this war UK will face a huge problem, that will hurt em for a generation or two. Their evil and illegal blocade, esp. of neutral states would have cost them any symphaties. Germany in ww1 never had any interests or plans to invade or attack the surronding neutrals... they NEEDED belgium area for their (silly) idea, with hindsight let the french slaughter themself in the german defences on a narrow front, keep out of belgium (they underestimated the value of the (mosty lying) british propaganda) and move 2-3 more armies in the next 2 months to the east. The fallout of this is: a.) in UK the war is very unpopular, with germany not attacking belgium there exist no "rape of belgium". The government will join that war as fast as possible, but it has no value of propaganda (many people also forget - the democratic rights to participate in elections was in germany - imperial germany much better as in the "so called" democracy Great Britain) There will be less volunteers, the war itself will be highly disliked. Worse - the neutrals who suffers under the british - illegal - kind of blocade will be even more fighting for its rights. The key is here the USA, they would not accept that the british "control" their trade, neither with germany nor with the neutrals b.) the austrians avoid the worst desasters, because with 2 more german armies moving east - that will cost around 6-8 weeks, was fully accepted by the russians (they belived the germans would send 25 divisions east) and will crush the russian armies in the north with an even greater desaster - causing a chain of following desasters (Russia is forced to move more and more armies north, that will help the austrians - they could not "win" but if they do not loose galicia (and with this 1000 trains and rolling stock - this was the major near-neck-breaking-effect for AH and germany (germany was forced to supply the austrians with trains, stretching the own rolling material till it fell appart) logistics allways are the key of everything). So russia face a general german-austrian-operation similar to the one they did in 1915 - one year earlier, with even greater losses to russia. c.) serbia face the whole 2nd austrian army, this will avoid the major defeats the austrians suffered here - that isn´t important for the campagain (they lacked the force to take out serbia - esp. because the serbian army was so brave and fought very hard) but it will help the CP because italy will not see AH beeing weak. d.) fallout is also that bulgaria propably will join in in late september, so serbia will be reduced to a nuisance quite early. It is not clear if the romanians could be forced to deliver war material to the osmans or not, but with huge russian defeats it is a possibility that romania switch the sides and support the CPs instead of the Entente. e.) in the west france is in a better position (no german conquering large parts of the industrial heartlands), but they would loose propably twice the casulties of OTL and do 1/2 the damage to the germans. France lacked any chance to do anything significant against the german defence positions. Joffre will wipe out the pre-war-army for achiving nothing. With more and more russian defeats the need for more and more useless assaults will rise. f.) sometimes - i bet around early november - the french - and the british will try to create an incident to invade belgium. We know that belgium would defend against ANY invader... if the germans keep out, but france and UK try something, belgium is suddenly a CP-state, attacked by perfidious albion and the sneaky french... even the best-lying british propaganda could not hide this - the negative impact, esp. in the USA would be a desaster. So USA is a true neutral state, propably banning weapon-selling and war material selling to anybody. THat alone break the neck of the Entente, esp. the british fleet will run on hot air - oil is wonderful, but if the major seller of such stuff don´t like you the RN sit in port, doing nothing. So comming 1915 we have a.) an angry italy - that will not accept any "regulations" by the british - that also would not react positive to any "demands" about german deals with italy... b.) an unfriendly USA, that could send convoys to germany (!), for sure to the dutch and scandinavians, propably protected by american warships. If the british think they could fight them... game over. If not, again game over because the blocade no longer exists. Sometimes in spring 15 serbia is conquered, russia will propably sue for peace after another series of defeats around summer 15 and the frontline reaching the baltics - around 200km away from Petersburg - here the ammo was produced for the russian army. Cut of these lines and russia surrender. France would have gutted its army, the BEF would either sit in belgium (fighting german and belgium forces) or die like the french useless running against german heads. In autum 15 russia has given up and the entente face a hostile italy (now they know that the CP wins) and the whole might of germany, AH and propably some italian armies launch combined with the belgian army a massive operation. That is the most realistic scenario if the germany do not invade belgium It is a fact that the Entente lacked any heavy weapons to break through trenches till 1916, the russians were hopeless outclassed by the germans - basically it was 1 german army versus 2-3 russian armies. The AH-army is much better supplied (logistics) if the trains are not taken and destroyed by the russians in galicia, also with no big defeats they don´t loose their NGOs, who could - with enlarging the army - increase the quality of the AH-army. Italy was opportunistic, it would love to take the AH-areas, but if they could gain corsica and large areas of mediterain france they would also take that. Romania entered late in the war thinking the Entente wins - here this will not happen Bulgaria waited till the Tarnopol-operation, also thinking that the war in the east was won by the CP. Here the CP have much larger succsess early, without the big defeats, so it is quite realistic that they join earlier. With no invasion of belgium the negative propaganda by the british will not bring the most important state (USA) on the Entente-side, the invasion of belgium by france and/or great britain will do the opposite. The USA will not support the CPs but it will not support the Entente. Game over in 1916, with the huge german-austrian-italian-belgian invasion.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Apr 12, 2018 8:50:18 GMT
OTL the dutch were friendly and pro-german. The brutal and evil behaviour of the british was for sure important for that, also the bad treatment of neutral rights. Here - it depends how badly the british violate international laws... if they act as OTL, the dutch will recognize that belgium was "in the way"- also they see how belgium is post war treated. i wrote some stuff about it. Ever heard when Queen Wilhelmina told Kaiser Wilhelm II when he boasted that his guard-troops were 7ft tall Queen Wilhelmina reminded him that if the Dutch opened their dikes the water would be 10ft deep. But i think that opinion might change especially if the Netherlands is surrounded by the Germans, Yes, still Wilhelm run to the netherlands into exile. The 7ft-Talk was just the typical nonsense, a british dandy would say. the netherlands would propably stay neutral, only if the british capture the dutch transport ships this time they could declare war. But i think that wouldn´t happen. The netherlands will not be included in the german reich, no such interests existed. As a neutral, the value of the netherlands was way to important. Later - after the war - they would be offered to join Mitteleuropa, i think after some time the dutch would join in. The colonial problems with the japanese would still exist, orders on german yards seem to be a "given" for me (esp. with german navy beat twice the RN, so the german ships are seen as much better) Japan and germany will be enemies. There is no chance that a winning germany would accept the sneaky japanese assault, combined with the racism (little yellow monkey - i think the Kaiser had this attitude). Taking some french colonies (New Caledonia) mean the germans have a new base, additional to the returned colonies from the british. If the japanese are smart, they offer money for the conquered areas, if not the hate in germany will be even greater. But japan had proved that it is as trustworthy as great britain - in the eyes of german politicans. So germany would maybe pay for taking a base as a refuel-station from madagascar/Deutsch-Ostafrika, also offering military support against japan. I can´t see the dutch giving more, it would be a "if the dutch are attacked by japan, we, the german empire will give any support to the dutch to defend their territority"-contract. So the dutch will order new modern battleships, maybe battlecruiser and other war material in germany, making german yards happy in times the german navy has no money to build more new ships. The dutch will get a discount on the price by the german kaiser, maybe the germans even rent some older ships (Kaisers?) to the dutch to protect that area from japan. With this the germans could invest some "early" modernisations on the costs of the dutch, in the same time the dutch finance this - as a yearly rent. German crews train the dutch "on the fly", so with the new ships ready in 4 years they have seasoned crews knowing the area and the german technology. Germany collect experience with huge ships in pacific waters - that could influence new ships, esp. the world-wide-operating ones... Or not.. who knows... For a post-war-scenario something needs to be understood. Germany as a country had nil interest in ww1. They wanted economic liberty to make money, expand their economy (as they did before), establish new markets. Here they broke the neck of the french, beat the russians, killed the british pride. So i expect a very "victory-disease"-loaded military, but in the same time the forced reforms (remember, the kaiser promised the "Burgfrieden" - deal, so this will happen) reduce the money the germans could spent on armed forces. That is the key why germany could not build 100 Mio-Goldmark battleships with 250x35x10m, with 8x42cm-guns.. it is way to expensive. So build ships for other nations (AH?, the dutch, the osman empire, maybe the scandinavian ones?), modernise with litte money the existing, knowing that 1/2 at last are full outdated. Build up infrastructure in the colonies, because - that was clearly understood - the trade war against the british empire is the cheapest way to redue the influence of the empire. Every small base (Say 10 Mio-Goldmark worth of investment) force the british to spent 200-300mio Goldmark-equivalent of countermeasurement. You could ruin the empire by doing this. 2 bases in madagascar - raise 2 brigades of soldiers - and use some heavy guns to protect em? UK need a full scale invasion, the preparation to do this costs alone 100 Mio Goldmark Also, the colonies - esp. the new Congo, Kamerun, Deutsch-Südwest will now be positive, they will bring lots of money... money you could invest in these bases... so you pay nothing for them, but the countermeasurements of the british are very expensive. Then you get back millions of Goldmark from the osmans, money you could invest in the osman empire... and make much more money. Build up ports for warships, railroad connections,... that keep the german steel-producing economy busy and happy, in the same time you could motivate the osmans to buy german warships, german guns, german airplanes... The world is 100% different to OTL, the british - after this humilating defeat have serious internal problems, in the same time the allready stronger and much better german econmy gets a booster. I think the gap between germany and UK will grow significant... so in 1930 you have the nr.1 - USA; with a strong but far behind germany as nr.2, with a similar behind nr3., the british empire. With german bases in morroco, the british will be VERY nervous, cause these mean a.) germany has now a supply line to their colonies b.) UK need lots of very expensive bases to operate against these forces.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2018 11:08:57 GMT
I would love to see those plans for a German invasion of the Netherlands during the Great War, but the Netherlands might have to work with Germany to keep Japan at bay, ore am i wrong. TTL the DEI is not just under threat from Japan, France, Britain and Australia are also going to attack when war breaks out. And while Australia and France Will both have neglictible fleets to fight a powerful Dutch-German fleet, Britain and Japan are going to bring some powerful Battleships to the table. Best to start mass Production of bombers. Why? Unless the Dutch have openly allied themselves with Germany when a new war starts there is no point in the allies adding another foe and an additional burden. Not to mention its unlikely France will feel secure enough to enter a defensive alliance for quite a while. If the Dutch have allied with an aggressive Germany then when a new war starts the allies would have to remove the DEI and other such bases threatening their supply lines and trade routes but its only if the Dutch have allied with Germany.
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Post by eurowatch on Apr 12, 2018 11:46:48 GMT
TTL the DEI is not just under threat from Japan, France, Britain and Australia are also going to attack when war breaks out. And while Australia and France Will both have neglictible fleets to fight a powerful Dutch-German fleet, Britain and Japan are going to bring some powerful Battleships to the table. Best to start mass Production of bombers. Why? Unless the Dutch have openly allied themselves with Germany when a new war starts there is no point in the allies adding another foe and an additional burden. Not to mention its unlikely France will feel secure enough to enter a defensive alliance for quite a while. If the Dutch have allied with an aggressive Germany then when a new war starts the allies would have to remove the DEI and other such bases threatening their supply lines and trade routes but its only if the Dutch have allied with Germany. Japan and France are not going to care if The Netherlands are Allied With Germany or not, France is only going to care that The Hague is pro-German and Japan sole interests are in the DEI and its oilfields. And Dutch oil supplying Germany is going to be a threat for both Great Britain and France unless the Royal Navy manages to shut Down the North Sea (which they were unable to do in the previous war and can't be expected to do this time either). And why would Germany be the agressor when they have gained all they wanted? It is France and Great Britain who have reasons to start another war.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 12, 2018 12:20:08 GMT
Why? Unless the Dutch have openly allied themselves with Germany when a new war starts there is no point in the allies adding another foe and an additional burden. Not to mention its unlikely France will feel secure enough to enter a defensive alliance for quite a while. If the Dutch have allied with an aggressive Germany then when a new war starts the allies would have to remove the DEI and other such bases threatening their supply lines and trade routes but its only if the Dutch have allied with Germany. Japan and France are not going to care if The Netherlands are Allied With Germany or not, France is only going to care that The Hague is pro-German and Japan sole interests are in the DEI and its oilfields. And Dutch oil supplying Germany is going to be a threat for both Great Britain and France unless the Royal Navy manages to shut Down the North Sea (which they were unable to do in the previous war and can't be expected to do this time either). And why would Germany be the agressor when they have gained all they wanted? It is France and Great Britain who have reasons to start another war. In the initial very unlikely scenario the German's won WWI by naval means but that's unlikely to last as Britain has too much interest in national survival to have an openly hostile power dominating its supply lines. Plus there is the little factor of geography. Without controlling Britain Germany can't project naval power from its base. Especially since the lesson's learnt from that conflict and the growing importance of air power strengthen that geographical position. It didn't stop Germany being the aggressor in 1914 and its obvious that a single expansionist nation is far more likely to be the starter of a conflict than a coalition of nations worried about that powers behaviour. That's a basic rule of geopolitics. Japan's overwhelming interest in such a scenario would be its national survival and bases of an hostile power across its main supply lines will be a major threat. So if the Dutch are allied to Germany in a conflict that would be a major target of them, Australia and Britain. If the Dutch are neutral then there is no reason to take on additional opponents. [At least unless your power obsessed belligerents who think military might is the be all and end all - which was the case in Germany in both world wars. True also of Japan in WWII but different drivers apply here. There is a possibility that it might degenerate in the same way but no reason it should do and plenty it shouldn't.]
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Post by eurowatch on Apr 12, 2018 13:10:02 GMT
Japan and France are not going to care if The Netherlands are Allied With Germany or not, France is only going to care that The Hague is pro-German and Japan sole interests are in the DEI and its oilfields. And Dutch oil supplying Germany is going to be a threat for both Great Britain and France unless the Royal Navy manages to shut Down the North Sea (which they were unable to do in the previous war and can't be expected to do this time either). And why would Germany be the agressor when they have gained all they wanted? It is France and Great Britain who have reasons to start another war. In the initial very unlikely scenario the German's won WWI by naval means but that's unlikely to last as Britain has too much interest in national survival to have an openly hostile power dominating its supply lines. Plus there is the little factor of geography. Without controlling Britain Germany can't project naval power from its base. Especially since the lesson's learnt from that conflict and the growing importance of air power strengthen that geographical position. It didn't stop Germany being the aggressor in 1914 and its obvious that a single expansionist nation is far more likely to be the starter of a conflict than a coalition of nations worried about that powers behaviour. That's a basic rule of geopolitics. Japan's overwhelming interest in such a scenario would be its national survival and bases of an hostile power across its main supply lines will be a major threat. So if the Dutch are allied to Germany in a conflict that would be a major target of them, Australia and Britain. If the Dutch are neutral then there is no reason to take on additional opponents. [At least unless your power obsessed belligerents who think military might is the be all and end all - which was the case in Germany in both world wars. True also of Japan in WWII but different drivers apply here. There is a possibility that it might degenerate in the same way but no reason it should do and plenty it shouldn't.] Japan cared very little about European politics, what they did care about was that due to the Western embargo they were lacking one million tonns of oil a year. They needed those oilfields and the more they sit around waiting for their European allies to get a good attacked the less strategic posibilities they have. There is going to be a point where they have to attack or they won't be able to attack at all.
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steffen
Ensign
Posts: 300
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Post by steffen on Apr 12, 2018 13:12:46 GMT
Japan and France are not going to care if The Netherlands are Allied With Germany or not, France is only going to care that The Hague is pro-German and Japan sole interests are in the DEI and its oilfields. And Dutch oil supplying Germany is going to be a threat for both Great Britain and France unless the Royal Navy manages to shut Down the North Sea (which they were unable to do in the previous war and can't be expected to do this time either). And why would Germany be the agressor when they have gained all they wanted? It is France and Great Britain who have reasons to start another war. In the initial very unlikely scenario the German's won WWI by naval means but that's unlikely to last as Britain has too much interest in national survival to have an openly hostile power dominating its supply lines. Plus there is the little factor of geography. Without controlling Britain Germany can't project naval power from its base. Especially since the lesson's learnt from that conflict and the growing importance of air power strengthen that geographical position. It didn't stop Germany being the aggressor in 1914 and its obvious that a single expansionist nation is far more likely to be the starter of a conflict than a coalition of nations worried about that powers behaviour. That's a basic rule of geopolitics. Japan's overwhelming interest in such a scenario would be its national survival and bases of an hostile power across its main supply lines will be a major threat. So if the Dutch are allied to Germany in a conflict that would be a major target of them, Australia and Britain. If the Dutch are neutral then there is no reason to take on additional opponents. [At least unless your power obsessed belligerents who think military might is the be all and end all - which was the case in Germany in both world wars. True also of Japan in WWII but different drivers apply here. There is a possibility that it might degenerate in the same way but no reason it should do and plenty it shouldn't.] oh my god.... 1.) i wrote that the german navy had two victories at sea - the first as OTL in dec. 14, as the german HSF historically (!) had the chance to take out a much smaller part of the GF. The so called "wet dream" of german fanboys. Here v.Ingenohl "do" it, instead of turning around. The engagement itself was a major defeat for the british - because their INFERIOR ships (protection) are confrontated with nearly twice the numbers of german battleships. Second, as a follow up one year ahead there is a naval battle at jutland, with the british having suffered high losses the GF is smaller as OTL and so the second engagement is - again - a german victory. No "wipe out the Royal Navy", but a "blow up the battlecruisers", because the lessons the british learned out of the dec14-engagement is similar to the one they did at Doggerbank. Both is very possible and realistic (esp. the second AFTER the first one). 2.) germany wasn´t agressive in july14, it reacted to the russian full mobilisation - it is a bit a surprise that you still use outdated informations. Maybe you live in UK 1918, because the british hided the truth about russian mobilisation till 1921. Just ask yourself why they did so. All nations had dirty hands in the outbreak of WW1, but the historical facts are: Blanc-check from germany to austria - to handle/punish the sneaky serbians (as they saw it) Blanc-check from france to russia - their premier openly offered the russians the - wished war with germany now. For that their MP was in Saint Petersburg. For that the french diplomats in vienna made clear that they - in any case - allways would support serbia, even if evidence would show that it was the serbian state who supported the terrorists. Serbia and Russia financed the terrorists, it was the unholy and mad russian arrogance who thought they could "take the balkan into their sphere of influence" that caused that conflict. The following events were an automatism, even if one could ask about the sanity to invade the neutral belgium - as a member of the "stay on defence in the west, wipe out the serbians and russians, then come back and crush the french and british"-fraction i am against - but that is hindsight). Everybody knew, if russia do its mobilisation this means war. For this the french demanded this from russia. The germans should have pushed the austrians to accept the counteroffer from serbia, as foul as it was. The french should have demanded from russia to NOT do the mobilisation, germany should not invade belgium for a weak chance to win in the west. But we know, UK allways wanted to join that war... they feared that france and russia otherwise would crush germany alone and they, the british would have no saying in this. 3.) germany won the war easily, because they won the race to the sea, comming south of calais. This mean the "naval kleinkrieg" stop the coastal traffic and the british suffer terrible by inadequate railroad supply for London, also they suffer huge casulties in ships trying to supply their troops in france. Also, with the germans deeper into france, the british suffer more by worse supply lines. It is all about logistics. Neutrals like the dutch will not accept that the british act the same way they did OTL, but more so the USA will supply the neutrals as they want to. You also show a strange idea about who threatens whom. Germany reacted with its fleet building to the british mistreatments of the free right of the oceans in the boer wars... Here the germans lacked any naval fleet worth to speak about and the british acted - to call it carefully - rude. This caused the german flotten-vertrag and so germany raised its fleet to relevant numbers. the "interests of UK" doesn´t mean they could "Kopenhagen" another states navy - something the 1st Sealord demanded from 1905-1913 - and showed - esp. based on the massive support this criminal thinking had in the state how ill the leadership was - and they allready were far behind in economic terms in 1914. With this victory, esp. with france significant weakened, Uk no longer can dominate anything. Germany do not need to attack UK, it never had any interests in that. It was just the hybris of UKs politicans, after the empire had fallen from a nr1. to a nr3 in the world. Yes, the merchant navy was 80% british, but the ships were aging.. better modern ships were build in germany. Their machinery industry lacked far behind the german one, the name "made in germany" was now for quality... british products were inferior in any areas of interest,. In Chemistry, physics and machinery others were just better. The companies in these countries produced cheaper and better. So the only nation that would start another war would be UK, driven by pure hate and stupidity. The germans would look for themself, changing its society, building up its "Mitteleuropa" they thougth that it would be better for their economy. But great britain would face the same huge problems in social terms as germany. A full voting right for everybody did not exist in the "democratic" UK... woman wanted to vote, the economy needed reforms, the vulnerabilty of the coastal trade need huge sums to improve the railroad system in UK (as OTL). In the same time they invest huge sums for more battleships, for a war nobody is interested in. Japan - its interests were criminal, brutal and partly allready genocidal. Not "fighting for survival". They declared war without beeing in danger, took european colonial areas and kept them. They started a fleet that threatened not only the interests of the USA, but was also clearly pointed against the dutch. The D.E.I are a core of the dutch colonial area, long time. they want security, they want to be out of war. Just like otl. Here they could buy german battleships and - propably benefit from a strong peaceful central europe. With germany moving stuff around to its (new) colonies, they are interested in resupplying older ships. Why should the dutch be a problem for france or UK? they are neutral, they do not help the Entente, they do not help the germans - they make money by buying cheap stuff and sell it - to germany more expensive. Yes, that hurts the british, but the role of the netherlands are not to make the british empire happy but to protect its people and raise the income. Give it 10 years and most british merchants need to be replaced. Esp,. the sailing ships are completly outdated. THe yards in europe will be busy, not only the british ones. France, germany, the netherlands, the belgians, italy, the swedes, danes and propably also Austria and the osmans will also build ships. We not even have talked about the USA. It seems you think the world should benefit the british empire? Here this would not happen, not at all. If the british start troubles in german colonies, the germans easily could start them in india or british colonies, too. The most reallistic scenario is this:In UK many will be insulted that "the hun" hadn´t been defeated, but they still buy german machinery, because it is cheaper and so much better as british machinery... the dutch propably turn on the germans to protect em in the DEI, because the british will look for allies... japan could be a strong naval supporter, so they propably keep this alliance. THe main problem is, japan has his 21 demands to china, so UK has to choose. Either stay with japan (and support all the brutality the japanese will commit) and anger the USA or drop japan, but gain "nothing". In such situation - what do you think will UK do? They suffered two defeats against "the hun", lost their control and Balance-of-Power-games in central europe (basically they are kicked out of the continent), had angered the neutrals by their illegal kind of blocade and - because the french lost earlier more ressources and industries in northwest france - had spent nearly as much money as they did OTL till june1917 (basically everything they had - from here on, it was unsecured credits OTL) Oh, they angered South africa, NewZealand and Australia, are forced to move more and more military forces into these regions (one german battleship at Rabaul and 3 cruiser and 9 destroyer mean the british need at last three time the numbers in the same area... with much more wear and tear), spent a lot more money for new ships, also have to maintain a larger army - for their chance to close german bases around the world... with no contiental ally for the next 5 to 10 years (france will face internal problems, could easily turn red - and then the british would support the germans to crush this development) and they also lack the oil for their own navy (with the osmans, who are no friend of the british) having a strong empire - again. Germany has its "place at the sun", a strong nr2 behind the USA, they have no need for war or something. Just like prewar, they want to make money, grow their economy and be "happy"
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