lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 10, 2018 10:46:18 GMT
PS On nuclear deterrent I'm not sure how strong Britain's was at this point. Still some way before Trident was in production and the old R force were getting rather long in the tooth. I remember reading that during the last decade or so of its existence one of the subs was no longer operational so it was impossible to have a sub out at all times. Which could be especially perilous given that both major potential enemies have markedly more advanced technology now compered to what the UK is used to facing. I think only 4 Resolution-class submarines and the WE.177 tactical and strategic gravity free-fall nuclear bomb (some estimates say that there are between 200 and 250 in use) for use by aircraft and even helicopters as a nuclear depth charge.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2018 13:51:32 GMT
The US is still developing the UGM-133, and uptimer tech can only improve that. I'm sure Reagan's USA will have no trouble at all obtaining that uptimer tech
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 10, 2018 13:53:03 GMT
The US is still developing the UGM-133, and uptimer tech can only improve that. I'm sure Reagan's USA will have no trouble at all obtaining that uptimer tech Also the US has the Space Shuttle and Apple has, Steve Jobs again.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 10, 2018 14:08:48 GMT
There is the probability that both nations can catch up fairly quickly, although its likely to take at least a decade. If nothing else education would have to change dramatically to enable the new generation to catch up with modern technology. I would miss the bus here as I was just finishing my A levels at college. While the basic facts in a hard science core would still be there there are vast differences in ways that information can be used, as well as the information available. Mind you as a lifelong SF fan I might well be in a better position that most people. Which brings up one interesting question. What happens about works of fiction for instance, plus some other thing possibly, and royalties and the like? Especially with things like films possibly. Gene Roddenberry for instance would be in for a windfall over several decades of Star Trek series and films. Classical SF writers like Asimov and Zelanzy, to mention the 1st two to come to mind, would be still about and see their later work, which could also influence what they do. There is going to be a reaction to a lot of social changes and also information that wasn't available in 79/81 for those affected. Just checked up and Polanski has already done a runner from the US so can't get justice for his child rape unfortunately but there are other cases that will be affected and the Yorkshire Ripper should be caught quickly which will save his last few victims. Hopefully one butterfly would be getting rid of Thatcher pretty quickly and a more responsible government in Britain although this would have to wait until probably about 83 at the earliest and there's still the danger things will be fouled up and we will be stuck with her and her ideas longer.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Mar 19, 2018 10:56:59 GMT
Considering she campaigned to stay in the EEC in 1975, I think she'd be horrified that Article 50 had been activated. It's out of her hands now. Britain does not comply with EU regulations in 1979, anyhow. Plus given how the EEC has changed to the EU in the intervening period I can't see it being interested in staying in. Just thought that a lot of EU [and other] citizens have disappeared while a fair number of Britons and Americans now have two versions, for people who moved to places elsewhere since 79/81. The interesting bit would be how people in both countries react to what they hear about what's happened to their countries in the preceeding ~39 years. Of course one crippling thing for both nations is their lost a hell of a lot of technology. I'm a lot younger but I have no computer or knowledge of use of them, let alone the internet. Britain still has a broad industrial base but a deeply outdated one. Our world leading computer industry is centred around the Sinclair Spectrum!! A lot of foreign powers have lost investments and 79 Britain's overseas interests are somewhat in the void. Hopefully the OTL free rein to loot for the financial sector will be curtailed greatly this time. Do foreign based forces and possessions also come along? In which case for instance the BAOR is back in Britain but with a lot of obsolete equipment. Ditto for the US which might also become the world's greatest polluter again [although I suspect China will still have that position] with all their old industries. However China has lost a hell of a lot of investments in the US. Basically the world economy is going to be in chaos for quite a while. I wonder as well what Reagan's US will make of Putin's Russia! Ha, Sinclair ZX-Spectrum, with 48k RAM. JetPac, ManicMiner, Jetset-Willy... Lords of Midnight, Doomdarks Revenge Memories of the past. I loved the manipulated tape-deck, to adjust the reading head of the tape... beeep bip, beebpipgc<jdflkjaslkdjl fJaldjöwje ... for a game you needed 5 minutes... with 40kb! Yes, UK was in that time absolutly leading in computers for commoners... then came the Commodore C64... but before it was the "happy time"... i still have a Spectrum, a ZX81 and my amiga (but that was much later)...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 19, 2018 11:01:22 GMT
Plus given how the EEC has changed to the EU in the intervening period I can't see it being interested in staying in. Just thought that a lot of EU [and other] citizens have disappeared while a fair number of Britons and Americans now have two versions, for people who moved to places elsewhere since 79/81. The interesting bit would be how people in both countries react to what they hear about what's happened to their countries in the preceeding ~39 years. Of course one crippling thing for both nations is their lost a hell of a lot of technology. I'm a lot younger but I have no computer or knowledge of use of them, let alone the internet. Britain still has a broad industrial base but a deeply outdated one. Our world leading computer industry is centred around the Sinclair Spectrum!! A lot of foreign powers have lost investments and 79 Britain's overseas interests are somewhat in the void. Hopefully the OTL free rein to loot for the financial sector will be curtailed greatly this time. Do foreign based forces and possessions also come along? In which case for instance the BAOR is back in Britain but with a lot of obsolete equipment. Ditto for the US which might also become the world's greatest polluter again [although I suspect China will still have that position] with all their old industries. However China has lost a hell of a lot of investments in the US. Basically the world economy is going to be in chaos for quite a while. I wonder as well what Reagan's US will make of Putin's Russia! Ha, Sinclair ZX-Spectrum, with 48k RAM. JetPac, ManicMiner, Jetset-Willy... Lords of Midnight, Doomdarks Revenge Memories of the past. I loved the manipulated tape-deck, to adjust the reading head of the tape... beeep bip, beebpipgc<jdflkjaslkdjl fJaldjöwje ... for a game you needed 5 minutes... with 40kb! Yes, UK was in that time absolutly leading in computers for commoners... then came the Commodore C64... but before it was the "happy time"... i still have a Spectrum, a ZX81 and my amiga (but that was much later)... In the early 80's I was living in hostel type accommodation supplied by our employers and one of the other guys had a ZX. Hours of fun playing some of the games. I remember a text based cricket game that took ages and an ancient battles one where you could play a wide range of armies against each other. Also the power supply made it a very effective heater!!
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Mar 19, 2018 12:12:42 GMT
Ha, Sinclair ZX-Spectrum, with 48k RAM. JetPac, ManicMiner, Jetset-Willy... Lords of Midnight, Doomdarks Revenge Memories of the past. I loved the manipulated tape-deck, to adjust the reading head of the tape... beeep bip, beebpipgc<jdflkjaslkdjl fJaldjöwje ... for a game you needed 5 minutes... with 40kb! Yes, UK was in that time absolutly leading in computers for commoners... then came the Commodore C64... but before it was the "happy time"... i still have a Spectrum, a ZX81 and my amiga (but that was much later)... In the early 80's I was living in hostel type accommodation supplied by our employers and one of the other guys had a ZX. Hours of fun playing some of the games. I remember a text based cricket game that took ages and an ancient battles one where you could play a wide range of armies against each other. Also the power supply made it a very effective heater!! Hi, cricket is to far away from my continental european mind Sorry, that is "to british" for me... . do you have a name of the games? in 1982/83 the games for the Spectrum were very innovative, handicaped by some missing processoring, but overall quite good, like most games of that time (aside of the typical arcade-games)... i remember one called 1984, in that you could rule UK... unfortunatly i did not understand all aspects (no english words), so my economic tries often ended in desaster - just like the stuff Maggie did to the british economy So basically i simulated the future of the UK... Overall the Speci was fun, only its keyboard was murderous... 6times-layout for the keys to keep the whole stuff small, then the fragile keyboard out of rubber... i had to change twice my keyboard, because the m and the , got damaged.... ah, these old times. By the way, USA and UK would be toast... in modern times you can´t survive with 1980er computer technology... even iceland or burundi would have more computer power... in modern times you are doomed without that.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 19, 2018 23:52:24 GMT
In the early 80's I was living in hostel type accommodation supplied by our employers and one of the other guys had a ZX. Hours of fun playing some of the games. I remember a text based cricket game that took ages and an ancient battles one where you could play a wide range of armies against each other. Also the power supply made it a very effective heater!! Hi, cricket is to far away from my continental european mind Sorry, that is "to british" for me... . do you have a name of the games? in 1982/83 the games for the Spectrum were very innovative, handicaped by some missing processoring, but overall quite good, like most games of that time (aside of the typical arcade-games)... i remember one called 1984, in that you could rule UK... unfortunatly i did not understand all aspects (no english words), so my economic tries often ended in desaster - just like the stuff Maggie did to the british economy So basically i simulated the future of the UK... Overall the Speci was fun, only its keyboard was murderous... 6times-layout for the keys to keep the whole stuff small, then the fragile keyboard out of rubber... i had to change twice my keyboard, because the m and the , got damaged.... ah, these old times. By the way, USA and UK would be toast... in modern times you can´t survive with 1980er computer technology... even iceland or burundi would have more computer power... in modern times you are doomed without that. Agree they would suffer very badly and it would take quite a while to catch up. There would also be the interesting question of modern US or UK foreign investments in 3rd countries and what happens to their ownership and ditto foreign ownership in 1980.79 US/Uk which will often be different from OTL. Going to be quite a squabble between US and China as I can't see the 1980 US accepting any responsibility for US 2018 debts which would mean China, and others, loses a hell of a lot of resources.
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steffen
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Post by steffen on Mar 20, 2018 9:43:52 GMT
Hi, cricket is to far away from my continental european mind Sorry, that is "to british" for me... . do you have a name of the games? in 1982/83 the games for the Spectrum were very innovative, handicaped by some missing processoring, but overall quite good, like most games of that time (aside of the typical arcade-games)... i remember one called 1984, in that you could rule UK... unfortunatly i did not understand all aspects (no english words), so my economic tries often ended in desaster - just like the stuff Maggie did to the british economy So basically i simulated the future of the UK... Overall the Speci was fun, only its keyboard was murderous... 6times-layout for the keys to keep the whole stuff small, then the fragile keyboard out of rubber... i had to change twice my keyboard, because the m and the , got damaged.... ah, these old times. By the way, USA and UK would be toast... in modern times you can´t survive with 1980er computer technology... even iceland or burundi would have more computer power... in modern times you are doomed without that. Agree they would suffer very badly and it would take quite a while to catch up. There would also be the interesting question of modern US or UK foreign investments in 3rd countries and what happens to their ownership and ditto foreign ownership in 1980.79 US/Uk which will often be different from OTL. Going to be quite a squabble between US and China as I can't see the 1980 US accepting any responsibility for US 2018 debts which would mean China, and others, loses a hell of a lot of resources. Hi, yes - that would be a BIG problem. Who owns what? the 1980er USA will for sure not feel responsible for - what? 15.000.000.000.000 USD? That alone would cause a huge problem - esp. for the arabian countries (UAE, Saudi-Arabia) and esp. china. UK is doomed... deeply. They have allready no or no working industry, but suddenly they have lost ALL competitive companies. They still have nukes, that is basically all they have... they are outdated in all technological areas... full outdated. The baltic states have more and better industrial output as UK, italy propably more as the USA. On the other hand, the europeans, chinese and others knows exactly what ressource-rich areas the USA and UK have or sit on. So to get back money from them (esp. USA) they will start to negotiate. But - would the USA be ready to deal with that situation? Knowing that a single homecomputer has more calculation power as basically NASA is a huge shock. Knowing that european satellites are vastly, total superior to everything they could even dream about - a huge mental and economical problem. THe knowledge that the cold war has gone, the wall has fallen, the EU has been created, that would cause some big problems for the US leadership. Ronald Reagan - propably every single US politican of that time - would face a huge problem, esp. with all "future-technologies" beeing completly outdated and - for the rest of the world "unsellable". Samsung would have a field day... no Apple... Microsoft as a smallish company, that has potential but not the influence it has now. All the other companies suddenly completly outdated - think about PC with Intel8088chips, compared with modern chipsets. Samsung and esp. the chinese computer manufacturer have a field day in taking over 100% of the US markets... Esp in times of "Silicon Valley", "Industry 4.0" the two newcomers face some incredible problematic problems....
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2018 15:44:48 GMT
Agree they would suffer very badly and it would take quite a while to catch up. There would also be the interesting question of modern US or UK foreign investments in 3rd countries and what happens to their ownership and ditto foreign ownership in 1980.79 US/Uk which will often be different from OTL. Going to be quite a squabble between US and China as I can't see the 1980 US accepting any responsibility for US 2018 debts which would mean China, and others, loses a hell of a lot of resources. Hi, yes - that would be a BIG problem. Who owns what? the 1980er USA will for sure not feel responsible for - what? 15.000.000.000.000 USD? That alone would cause a huge problem - esp. for the arabian countries (UAE, Saudi-Arabia) and esp. china. UK is doomed... deeply. They have allready no or no working industry, but suddenly they have lost ALL competitive companies. They still have nukes, that is basically all they have... they are outdated in all technological areas... full outdated. The baltic states have more and better industrial output as UK, italy propably more as the USA. On the other hand, the europeans, chinese and others knows exactly what ressource-rich areas the USA and UK have or sit on. So to get back money from them (esp. USA) they will start to negotiate. But - would the USA be ready to deal with that situation? Knowing that a single homecomputer has more calculation power as basically NASA is a huge shock. Knowing that european satellites are vastly, total superior to everything they could even dream about - a huge mental and economical problem.THe knowledge that the cold war has gone, the wall has fallen, the EU has been created, that would cause some big problems for the US leadership. Ronald Reagan - propably every single US politican of that time - would face a huge problem, esp. with all "future-technologies" beeing completly outdated and - for the rest of the world "unsellable". Samsung would have a field day... no Apple... Microsoft as a smallish company, that has potential but not the influence it has now. All the other companies suddenly completly outdated - think about PC with Intel8088chips, compared with modern chipsets. Samsung and esp. the chinese computer manufacturer have a field day in taking over 100% of the US markets... Esp in times of "Silicon Valley", "Industry 4.0" the two newcomers face some incredible problematic problems.... That might be the biggest problem of the lot. Mentioned this earlier in reference to the Chinese getting angry at the sudden loss of Hong Kong and their demands for its return. Britain and the US may well not accept that the lease on the territories have run out - since it basically hasn't for them - and also be unwilling to accept the economic power of China. The UK will be in a bad way but not without hope. Its a lot easier to catch up than stay near the lead and the shock of the sudden and clear obsolescence could help force through reforms. [Although I can see Thatcher and her ilk arguing for her OTL reforms which would only deepen the mess. However avoiding that and with assistance from friendly states it might be possible to catch up within a generation. I wonder if Argentina might try and take advantage of Britain's weakness to try again at conquering the Falklands? Britain is a good way behind in tech but it has a lot more forces than OTL 2018, especially if the ISOT returns all war and merchant ships and units from BAOR say.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 15:49:24 GMT
I wonder if Argentina might try and take advantage of Britain's weakness to try again at conquering the Falklands? Britain is a good way behind in tech but it has a lot more forces than OTL 2018, especially if the ISOT returns all war and merchant ships and units from BAOR say. With what navy would Argentina invade the Falklands.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2018 16:01:14 GMT
I wonder if Argentina might try and take advantage of Britain's weakness to try again at conquering the Falklands? Britain is a good way behind in tech but it has a lot more forces than OTL 2018, especially if the ISOT returns all war and merchant ships and units from BAOR say. With what navy would Argentina invade the Falklands. They don't have a lot left or air force for that matter but its probably a fair bit more advanced in technology than anything non-nuclear the UK has and Britain will be somewhat distracted by the chaos resulting from being moved 39 years into the future. They don't have a dictatorship desiring distractions from its failures but they do have a long standing imperial claim. One other thing just occurred to me. This solves the question over the border with Ireland. It will be back with a vengeance as Ulster is deeply riven by conflict and the IRA are deep into their murder campaigns, as are their Protestant opponents. Although they will lack some of their infrastructure and supporters in the republic. [Which could be a short-lived benefit as I doubt it would be long before more nutters come forward to support the "cause"]. Mind you Ireland will be hit fairly hard as a lot of its trade goes to or through Britain so presuming Britexit still occurs their going to face disruption both because of the trade barriers that will be in place and the disruption from the event.
Just thought on that. Lord Mountbatten was still alive at this point and he is probably in Britain rather than Ireland so could avoid the OTL attack on his boat. Hopefully also knowledge form 2018 might enable the authorities to pick up a lot of the degenerates behind much of the violence.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 16:09:12 GMT
With what navy would Argentina invade the Falklands. They don't have a lot left or air force for that matter but its probably a fair bit more advanced in technology than anything non-nuclear the UK has and Britain will be somewhat distracted by the chaos resulting from being moved 39 years into the future. They don't have a dictatorship desiring distractions from its failures but they do have a long standing imperial claim. One other thing just occurred to me. This solves the question over the border with Ireland. It will be back with a vengeance as Ulster is deeply riven by conflict and the IRA are deep into their murder campaigns, as are their Protestant opponents. Although they will lack some of their infrastructure and supporters in the republic. [Which could be a short-lived benefit as I doubt it would be long before more nutters come forward to support the "cause"]. Mind you Ireland will be hit fairly hard as a lot of its trade goes to or through Britain so presuming Britexit still occurs their going to face disruption both because of the trade barriers that will be in place and the disruption from the event.
Just thought on that. Lord Mountbatten was still alive at this point and he is probably in Britain rather than Ireland so could avoid the OTL attack on his boat. Hopefully also knowledge form 2018 might enable the authorities to pick up a lot of the degenerates behind much of the violence. You mean the 22 Argentina Skyhawks versus British Harriers armed with Sidewinders, the same Skyhawks that failed to defeat the British in 1981. Would the IRA of 1979 be in shock to discover the Irish prime minster is of Indian heritage and gay.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2018 16:19:50 GMT
They don't have a lot left or air force for that matter but its probably a fair bit more advanced in technology than anything non-nuclear the UK has and Britain will be somewhat distracted by the chaos resulting from being moved 39 years into the future. They don't have a dictatorship desiring distractions from its failures but they do have a long standing imperial claim. One other thing just occurred to me. This solves the question over the border with Ireland. It will be back with a vengeance as Ulster is deeply riven by conflict and the IRA are deep into their murder campaigns, as are their Protestant opponents. Although they will lack some of their infrastructure and supporters in the republic. [Which could be a short-lived benefit as I doubt it would be long before more nutters come forward to support the "cause"]. Mind you Ireland will be hit fairly hard as a lot of its trade goes to or through Britain so presuming Britexit still occurs their going to face disruption both because of the trade barriers that will be in place and the disruption from the event.
Just thought on that. Lord Mountbatten was still alive at this point and he is probably in Britain rather than Ireland so could avoid the OTL attack on his boat. Hopefully also knowledge form 2018 might enable the authorities to pick up a lot of the degenerates behind much of the violence. You mean the 22 Argentina Skyhawks versus British Harriers armed with Sidewinders, the same Skyhawks that failed to defeat the British in 1981. Would the IRA of 1979 be in shock to discover the Irish prime minster is of Indian heritage and gay. I didn't realise they were still that outdated. Good to know. Although their software and missiles etc are probably somewhat updated I don't think they will make a bid. The IRA are likely to have some nasty shocks, along with social changes which has greatly reduced the power of the Catholic church and things like same sex marriage. However I think most of them were pretty much monolithically concentrated on killing people they don't like [or don't obey them] and running their protection rackets and generally pushing people about. If the British government can get info from 2018 possibly a lot of deaths in Ulster and Britain generally can be avoided. At the same date as the Mountbatten attack there was a big bomb in London and the killers could well be in Britain by this time so possibly they could well be caught before they can do anything. Although this does raise the question of can you charge someone for what they did in 1979 [or latter] when for them it hasn't yet??] However there are a lot of crimes and activities than are known about, as well as miscarriages of justice. Ditto with things like some of the political scandles and some of the big pedophilia cases for instance. I did mention earlier that Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper can be identified and caught before his last murders but a lot of other cases can be cleared up or prevented as well.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 20, 2018 16:28:22 GMT
You mean the 22 Argentina Skyhawks versus British Harriers armed with Sidewinders, the same Skyhawks that failed to defeat the British in 1981. Would the IRA of 1979 be in shock to discover the Irish prime minster is of Indian heritage and gay. I didn't realise they were still that outdated. Good to know. Although their software and missiles etc are probably somewhat updated I don't think they will make a bid. The IRA are likely to have some nasty shocks, along with social changes which has greatly reduced the power of the Catholic church and things like same sex marriage. However I think most of them were pretty much monolithically concentrated on killing people they don't like [or don't obey them] and running their protection rackets and generally pushing people about. If the British government can get info from 2018 possibly a lot of deaths in Ulster and Britain generally can be avoided. At the same date as the Mountbatten attack there was a big bomb in London and the killers could well be in Britain by this time so possibly they could well be caught before they can do anything. Although this does raise the question of can you charge someone for what they did in 1979 [or latter] when for them it hasn't yet??] However there are a lot of crimes and activities than are known about, as well as miscarriages of justice. Ditto with things like some of the political scandles and some of the big pedophilia cases for instance. I did mention earlier that Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper can be identified and caught before his last murders but a lot of other cases can be cleared up or prevented as well. That means a new Good Friday Agreement has to be made.
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