lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 26, 2018 14:48:39 GMT
Will we see a UN condemnation and a Soviet veto. Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Thank you. I'll add it to the next update, which concerns a far smaller air disaster in Central America. I can see China stepping up its support of Pakistan while looking worry to both India and Vietnam, two pro-Soviet allies.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 16:32:36 GMT
Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Thank you. I'll add it to the next update, which concerns a far smaller air disaster in Central America. I can see China stepping up its support of Pakistan while looking worry to both India and Vietnam, two pro-Soviet allies. The Soviet and China are on an ultimate collision course, but as part of so much more. It would be a bit much to call India a Soviet ally; more like a sometime friend. India will walk away from that friendship when the Soviets do what they do.
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 26, 2018 17:29:33 GMT
The Soviet and China are on an ultimate collision course, but as part of so much more. It would be a bit much to call India a Soviet ally; more like a sometime friend. India will walk away from that friendship when the Soviets do what they do. The problem with India is that surely at the moment it's not a friend of China and Pakistan and border incident are very common in that area; once the war start the risk of expansion of the conflict will be enourmous (basically July crisis level) as both Bejing and Islamabad will fear a possible New Dehli intervention to secure the disputed territories. At the moment, if change are not happened, Indira Ghandi it's at the helm of the nation, and she was very friendly with the URSS and OTL at the moment it also was the biggest commercial patner...and while she worked well with Reagan (even if her personal opinion of him was not high), i doubt that she have the same to says about Kennedy.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 18:12:51 GMT
The Soviet and China are on an ultimate collision course, but as part of so much more. It would be a bit much to call India a Soviet ally; more like a sometime friend. India will walk away from that friendship when the Soviets do what they do. The problem with India is that surely at the moment it's not a friend of China and Pakistan and border incident are very common in that area; once the war start the risk of expansion of the conflict will be enourmous (basically July crisis level) as both Bejing and Islamabad will fear a possible New Dehli intervention to secure the disputed territories. At the moment, if change are not happened, Indira Ghandi it's at the helm of the nation, and she was very friendly with the URSS and OTL at the moment it also was the biggest commercial patner...and while she worked well with Reagan (even if her personal opinion of him was not high), i doubt that she have the same to says about Kennedy. That is true. Many nations will act on disputes when the world goes to s***. I just can't see India acting in open support of the Soviets. Overflight rights, port calls... maybe. Not armed action in support of the Soviets in their war. There could easily be a Pakistani clash once the big boys are distracted though, even a deliberate one to do damage to Pakistan while its allies are out of the picture. I will think on this.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 18:14:10 GMT
(85)
February 1983:
Ten days after the crash of the Chinese airliner in North East Asia, a smaller aircraft went down in the Caribbean. This was a Panamanian military aircraft, a VIP-configured transport. It was carrying the President of Panama and the Interior Minister (and de facto foreign affairs spokesman too) of Nicaragua who were on their way to the UN up in New York. The aircraft had left Panama City carrying Omar Torrijos and made a stop in Nicaragua to collect Tomás Borge. From there, it flew onwards heading for a refuelling stop in Atlanta and then the final destination being La Guardia Airport. It never made it to the United States. There had been inspections for explosive devices made in Panama and at Managua which had found nothing. The whole aircraft was one big bomb though. When over the Caribbean, the internal fuel was ignited by a small charge inside the main tank and there was an almighty blast in the sky. The aircraft was blown apart mid-air. Torrijos and Borge, along with nine others, were killed. The Panamanian president wouldn’t be making his speech at the UN where he would talk about his vision for Latin America; the man behind the Red Terror which had struck Nicaragua when it had fallen to the Sandinistas wouldn’t be able to question allegations stating that the Soviets had shot down that airliner and instead direct blame towards the United States. The false flag assertion would be made afterwards elsewhere with his death instead. A US Navy destroyer which would several days later find wreckage on the sea’s surface and body parts, but wouldn’t be able to locate any survivors.
There was outrage among the people in Panama. Torrijos’ death (quite pre-emptively) was announced by the authorities and there was a deliberate effort made by the government to spread the rumour that he had been killed by the United States. This was the work of the CIA! Rioting spread across the Canal Zone, an area under American control but full of Panamanian civilians. US military personnel and families were kept inside secure areas while outside the Panamanian authorities did little to stop the smashing of glass, vehicles being overturned and burning of American flags. It was a serious situation though direct violence against US military forces didn’t occur because at the first hint of that, that was when the Panamanian police stepped in. Up in Nicaragua, there was calm. The news about Borge was carefully released to the people. His two fellow leaders in the now-broken troika, the Ortega brothers Daniel and Humberto, had no desire to see the crowds in Managua come out into the streets for the fear that they might not be able to control them should they be whipped up. The allegations coming from Panama that the disappearance of that aircraft had been the work of the CIA weren’t openly repeated in Managua by the state-controlled media though there were hints towards that with an investigation by the government promised. Borge was a hero of the revolution, the people were told, and he was feared dead with the belief that he had been slain as a martyr alongside Torrijos by enemies of the Nicaraguan Revolution.
It was Noriega who had killed Torrijos and Borge. He had help, help which had come from the Cuban DGI. A Cuban team had helped Noriega’s own people in rigging that aircraft into the flying bomb which it was and making sure that the work couldn’t be detected. Why did Noriega murder his camarada and the others on that aircraft including such a senior Nicaraguan leader? The reasons were many. For him personally, Noriega wanted the power that Torrijos had. There was a lot to that in terms of nuance, but that was the long and short of it. He wanted to be the man running Panama and was sure that he could do a far better job. Torrijos was in his way and the only way to get rid of him was to kill him. Blaming it on someone else was more than convenient: it had to be done unless Torrijos’ supporters – many soon to disappear – turned on him afterwards. Torrijos was also starting to question the actions of Noriega as well. There was the issue with cocaine trafficking which had come to an almost complete stop via Panama as Torrijos had wanted to clean up the country’s image to get the Americans to hand over the Canal Zone. Noriega liked the money he earned from allowing it to take place. Torrijos had once liked the money too, then he had decided that he no longer did and would rather become a ‘serious politician’. Noriega had kept on moving some drugs, sending them northwards towards the United States, poisoning millions with the powder, but not enough. The drug cartels down in Colombia – dangerous people – were soon to cut him off completely if he didn’t do something about Torrijos’ moral high ground. Torrijos had people looking into Noriega’s continued deals. When in Cuba last month and being told by Fidel how Torrijos was no longer valuable to them, the Cubans hadn’t spoken a word about any objections to cocaine trafficking: Noriega took that as being given tacit approval to re-start that… he was wrong but just didn’t know that yet. As to the Cubans, it was they who wanted Borge to die. Noriega had been told what he needed to be when it came to that man who he knew was always close to Cuba and who had only months ago defended Cuba’s actions when at that summit in Jamaica. That Borge had done, but he was also someone whom Fidel and his brother Raúl saw as restricting their influence in the region. Borge was the one of the three in-charge in Nicaragua who had tried to affirm Nicaragua’s position as independent of Cuban control: an ally, not a client state. He had limited Nicaragua’s role supporting Guatemala in the Belize War and then raised serious misgivings after Fidel had got the Ortegas to send troops into Honduras to fight in the undeclared war going on there. That man was working against Cuban interests even without purposely intending to. Cuba wanted him gone and in exchange for their assistance in getting rid of Torrijos, they wanted to make sure that Borge was killed he had been alongside Torrijos. A bond made in blood between Havana and Panama City had thus been forged. Blaming it all on the Americans was perfect cover for all involved too; who would really believe that the twin assassinations were the work of Cuba and Noriega acting in concert?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 26, 2018 18:19:50 GMT
(85)February 1983: Ten days after the crash of the Chinese airliner in North East Asia, a smaller aircraft went down in the Caribbean. This was a Panamanian military aircraft, a VIP-configured transport. It was carrying the President of Panama and the Interior Minister (and de facto foreign affairs spokesman too) of Nicaragua who were on their way to the UN up in New York. The aircraft had left Panama City carrying Omar Torrijos and made a stop in Nicaragua to collect Tomás Borge. From there, it flew onwards heading for a refuelling stop in Atlanta and then the final destination being La Guardia Airport. It never made it to the United States. There had been inspections for explosive devices made in Panama and at Managua which had found nothing. The whole aircraft was one big bomb though. When over the Caribbean, the internal fuel was ignited by a small charge inside the main tank and there was an almighty blast in the sky. The aircraft was blown apart mid-air. Torrijos and Borge, along with nine others, were killed. The Panamanian president wouldn’t be making his speech at the UN where he would talk about his vision for Latin America; the man behind the Red Terror which had struck Nicaragua when it had fallen to the Sandinistas wouldn’t be able to question allegations stating that the Soviets had shot down that airliner and instead direct blame towards the United States. The false flag assertion would be made afterwards elsewhere with his death instead. A US Navy destroyer which would several days later find wreckage on the sea’s surface and body parts, but wouldn’t be able to locate any survivors. There was outrage among the people in Panama. Torrijos’ death (quite pre-emptively) was announced by the authorities and there was a deliberate effort made by the government to spread the rumour that he had been killed by the United States. This was the work of the CIA! Rioting spread across the Canal Zone, an area under American control but full of Panamanian civilians. US military personnel and families were kept inside secure areas while outside the Panamanian authorities did little to stop the smashing of glass, vehicles being overturned and burning of American flags. It was a serious situation though direct violence against US military forces didn’t occur because at the first hint of that, that was when the Panamanian police stepped in. Up in Nicaragua, there was calm. The news about Borge was carefully released to the people. His two fellow leaders in the now-broken troika, the Ortega brothers Daniel and Humberto, had no desire to see the crowds in Managua come out into the streets for the fear that they might not be able to control them should they be whipped up. The allegations coming from Panama that the disappearance of that aircraft had been the work of the CIA weren’t openly repeated in Managua by the state-controlled media though there were hints towards that with an investigation by the government promised. Borge was a hero of the revolution, the people were told, and he was feared dead with the belief that he had been slain as a martyr alongside Torrijos by enemies of the Nicaraguan Revolution. It was Noriega who had killed Torrijos and Borge. He had help, help which had come from the Cuban DGI. A Cuban team had helped Noriega’s own people in rigging that aircraft into the flying bomb which it was and making sure that the work couldn’t be detected. Why did Noriega murder his camarada and the others on that aircraft including such a senior Nicaraguan leader? The reasons were many. For him personally, Noriega wanted the power that Torrijos had. There was a lot to that in terms of nuance, but that was the long and short of it. He wanted to be the man running Panama and was sure that he could do a far better job. Torrijos was in his way and the only way to get rid of him was to kill him. Blaming it on someone else was more than convenient: it had to be done unless Torrijos’ supporters – many soon to disappear – turned on him afterwards. Torrijos was also starting to question the actions of Noriega as well. There was the issue with cocaine trafficking which had come to an almost complete stop via Panama as Torrijos had wanted to clean up the country’s image to get the Americans to hand over the Canal Zone. Noriega liked the money he earned from allowing it to take place. Torrijos had once liked the money too, then he had decided that he no longer did and would rather become a ‘serious politician’. Noriega had kept on moving some drugs, sending them northwards towards the United States, poisoning millions with the powder, but not enough. The drug cartels down in Colombia – dangerous people – were soon to cut him off completely if he didn’t do something about Torrijos’ moral high ground. Torrijos had people looking into Noriega’s continued deals. When in Cuba last month and being told by Fidel how Torrijos was no longer valuable to them, the Cubans hadn’t spoken a word about any objections to cocaine trafficking: Noriega took that as being given tacit approval to re-start that… he was wrong but just didn’t know that yet. As to the Cubans, it was they who wanted Borge to die. Noriega had been told what he needed to be when it came to that man who he knew was always close to Cuba and who had only months ago defended Cuba’s actions when at that summit in Jamaica. That Borge had done, but he was also someone whom Fidel and his brother Raúl saw as restricting their influence in the region. Borge was the one of the three in-charge in Nicaragua who had tried to affirm Nicaragua’s position as independent of Cuban control: an ally, not a client state. He had limited Nicaragua’s role supporting Guatemala in the Belize War and then raised serious misgivings after Fidel had got the Ortegas to send troops into Honduras to fight in the undeclared war going on there. That man was working against Cuban interests even without purposely intending to. Cuba wanted him gone and in exchange for their assistance in getting rid of Torrijos, they wanted to make sure that Borge was killed he had been alongside Torrijos. A bond made in blood between Havana and Panama City had thus been forged. Blaming it all on the Americans was perfect cover for all involved too; who would really believe that the twin assassinations were the work of Cuba and Noriega acting in concert? So Manuel Noriega reign of terror has has begone.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 19:18:44 GMT
(85)February 1983: Ten days after the crash of the Chinese airliner in North East Asia, a smaller aircraft went down in the Caribbean. This was a Panamanian military aircraft, a VIP-configured transport. It was carrying the President of Panama and the Interior Minister (and de facto foreign affairs spokesman too) of Nicaragua who were on their way to the UN up in New York. The aircraft had left Panama City carrying Omar Torrijos and made a stop in Nicaragua to collect Tomás Borge. From there, it flew onwards heading for a refuelling stop in Atlanta and then the final destination being La Guardia Airport. It never made it to the United States. There had been inspections for explosive devices made in Panama and at Managua which had found nothing. The whole aircraft was one big bomb though. When over the Caribbean, the internal fuel was ignited by a small charge inside the main tank and there was an almighty blast in the sky. The aircraft was blown apart mid-air. Torrijos and Borge, along with nine others, were killed. The Panamanian president wouldn’t be making his speech at the UN where he would talk about his vision for Latin America; the man behind the Red Terror which had struck Nicaragua when it had fallen to the Sandinistas wouldn’t be able to question allegations stating that the Soviets had shot down that airliner and instead direct blame towards the United States. The false flag assertion would be made afterwards elsewhere with his death instead. A US Navy destroyer which would several days later find wreckage on the sea’s surface and body parts, but wouldn’t be able to locate any survivors. There was outrage among the people in Panama. Torrijos’ death (quite pre-emptively) was announced by the authorities and there was a deliberate effort made by the government to spread the rumour that he had been killed by the United States. This was the work of the CIA! Rioting spread across the Canal Zone, an area under American control but full of Panamanian civilians. US military personnel and families were kept inside secure areas while outside the Panamanian authorities did little to stop the smashing of glass, vehicles being overturned and burning of American flags. It was a serious situation though direct violence against US military forces didn’t occur because at the first hint of that, that was when the Panamanian police stepped in. Up in Nicaragua, there was calm. The news about Borge was carefully released to the people. His two fellow leaders in the now-broken troika, the Ortega brothers Daniel and Humberto, had no desire to see the crowds in Managua come out into the streets for the fear that they might not be able to control them should they be whipped up. The allegations coming from Panama that the disappearance of that aircraft had been the work of the CIA weren’t openly repeated in Managua by the state-controlled media though there were hints towards that with an investigation by the government promised. Borge was a hero of the revolution, the people were told, and he was feared dead with the belief that he had been slain as a martyr alongside Torrijos by enemies of the Nicaraguan Revolution. It was Noriega who had killed Torrijos and Borge. He had help, help which had come from the Cuban DGI. A Cuban team had helped Noriega’s own people in rigging that aircraft into the flying bomb which it was and making sure that the work couldn’t be detected. Why did Noriega murder his camarada and the others on that aircraft including such a senior Nicaraguan leader? The reasons were many. For him personally, Noriega wanted the power that Torrijos had. There was a lot to that in terms of nuance, but that was the long and short of it. He wanted to be the man running Panama and was sure that he could do a far better job. Torrijos was in his way and the only way to get rid of him was to kill him. Blaming it on someone else was more than convenient: it had to be done unless Torrijos’ supporters – many soon to disappear – turned on him afterwards. Torrijos was also starting to question the actions of Noriega as well. There was the issue with cocaine trafficking which had come to an almost complete stop via Panama as Torrijos had wanted to clean up the country’s image to get the Americans to hand over the Canal Zone. Noriega liked the money he earned from allowing it to take place. Torrijos had once liked the money too, then he had decided that he no longer did and would rather become a ‘serious politician’. Noriega had kept on moving some drugs, sending them northwards towards the United States, poisoning millions with the powder, but not enough. The drug cartels down in Colombia – dangerous people – were soon to cut him off completely if he didn’t do something about Torrijos’ moral high ground. Torrijos had people looking into Noriega’s continued deals. When in Cuba last month and being told by Fidel how Torrijos was no longer valuable to them, the Cubans hadn’t spoken a word about any objections to cocaine trafficking: Noriega took that as being given tacit approval to re-start that… he was wrong but just didn’t know that yet. As to the Cubans, it was they who wanted Borge to die. Noriega had been told what he needed to be when it came to that man who he knew was always close to Cuba and who had only months ago defended Cuba’s actions when at that summit in Jamaica. That Borge had done, but he was also someone whom Fidel and his brother Raúl saw as restricting their influence in the region. Borge was the one of the three in-charge in Nicaragua who had tried to affirm Nicaragua’s position as independent of Cuban control: an ally, not a client state. He had limited Nicaragua’s role supporting Guatemala in the Belize War and then raised serious misgivings after Fidel had got the Ortegas to send troops into Honduras to fight in the undeclared war going on there. That man was working against Cuban interests even without purposely intending to. Cuba wanted him gone and in exchange for their assistance in getting rid of Torrijos, they wanted to make sure that Borge was killed he had been alongside Torrijos. A bond made in blood between Havana and Panama City had thus been forged. Blaming it all on the Americans was perfect cover for all involved too; who would really believe that the twin assassinations were the work of Cuba and Noriega acting in concert? So Manuel Noriega reign of terror has has begone. It will. Though it must be noted that he is still a CIA 'contact' at this time. The duplicity of Noriega will surprise men who shouldn't be surprised.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 26, 2018 19:19:24 GMT
So Manuel Noriega reign of terror has has begone. It will. Though it must be noted that he is still a CIA 'contact' at this time. The duplicity of Noriega will surprise men who shouldn't be surprised. Well i doubt he will survive longer than he did in OTL.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 19:27:41 GMT
It will. Though it must be noted that he is still a CIA 'contact' at this time. The duplicity of Noriega will surprise men who shouldn't be surprised. Well i doubt he will survive longer than he did in OTL. I will agree on that but say no more for now. Anyway, we now go to West Germany next.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 19:30:44 GMT
(86)
March 1983:
Over the Christmas break at the end of 1982, Chancellor Helmut Schmidt had announced that he would be resigning as leader of the West German SPD party before the upcoming federal elections called for March ’83. He had intended to lead his party into them to secure a new mandate from the electorate but internal pressures from within the SPD forced his resignation. There was no legal requirement for an election until the following year because, with the FDP in a parliamentary coalition, Schmidt had the votes in the Bundestag to maintain power… in theory. However, the new FDP leader replacing the slain Genscher, in the form of Otto Graf Lambsdorff, had told him that such support couldn’t continue without going to the people for legitimacy. Rather than see the FDP walk out and side with the opposition CDU, making Helmut Kohl the new chancellor in a CDU-FDP tie-in, Schmidt had moved forward with planned elections. His own position had come under attack from within though and eventually he gave in to that pressure. The terror attacks from the Red Army Faction and the Unterweser nuclear accident, but more so long-standing issues over Schmidt’s so-called militarism and domestic economic & labour problems, had all combined to bring about his downfall. Genscher had been a rock too, one which Lambsdorff certainly wasn’t. Replacing Schmidt to take the party into the election was Hans-Jochen Vogel. He led the SPD campaign where the party officially set out to win a majority yet privately expected to form a coalition once again with the FDP. Vogel and Lambsdorff would work together and keep Kohl out of office. This was the plan. More of the same but with different faces on it. West German voters went to cast their ballots on March 6th.
The SPD won the most seats, that wasn’t expected. Coming second was the CDU, neither was that expected. In third place of seats in the Bundestag wasn’t the FDP as everyone knew it would be but instead The Greens took that position. That pesky, chaotic little ecologist party who everyone laughed at took votes from the communists (and other small parties) but more so from the FDP who saw their share of the vote collapse by almost forty percent overall but more in key areas where they lost seats to The Greens. From having zero seats at the last election in ’80, The Greens now had fifty-seven. Seats in the Bundestag were granted on constituency/district basis as well as from party lists. The Greens had been expected to win seats but all from the party list basis: ten, maybe a dozen at best so said the experts. They took more than ten percent of those available including fifteen constituency seats: all the latter from the FDP. The turnout for the election was massive – West Germans liked to do their patriotic duty and vote – with polling stations inundated with voters. It was quite the shock. The FDP were long the party with which coalitions in the Bundestag were formed but they were left with just eighteen seats and when the numbers were crunched, it was The Greens which mattered. Neither the SPD nor the CDU could form a government on their own nor with the FDP. They could work together but that they wouldn’t: both Vogel and Kohl would be thrown out of their party leadership positions for trying to do so. Each approached The Greens and their collective leadership fronted by Petra Kelly. She put it to her colleagues: they all agreed that there couldn’t be any deal struck with the CDU and it would be the SPD to whom they would align themselves with in the Bundestag. Once that was agreed internally, The Greens then approached Vogel and told him what would be the price of their participation in the government. Vogel wasn’t impressed but things could have been worse, far worse. The Greens in their collective leadership weren’t demanding the unthinkable – unilateral disarmament, joining the Warsaw Pact, booting the Americans out on their behinds; none of that silliness –, just some reforms made and their voices really heard. A deal was struck. Kelly and her colleagues would join a parliamentary coalition with the SPD leaving the CDU and the fallen FDP both in opposition… Kelly’s colleagues being men like Rudolf Bahro, Gert Bastian and Joschka Fischer. West Germany’s new future was now to be written by those whose ideas they really hadn’t voted for.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 26, 2018 19:37:59 GMT
(86)March 1983: Over the Christmas break at the end of 1982, Chancellor Helmut Schmidt had announced that he would be resigning as leader of the West German SDP party before the upcoming federal elections called for March ’83. He had intended to lead his party into them to secure a new mandate from the electorate but internal pressures from within the SDP forced his resignation. There was no legal requirement for an election until the following year because, with the FDP in a parliamentary coalition, Schmidt had the votes in the Bundestag to maintain power… in theory. However, the new FDP leader replacing the slain Genscher, in the form of Otto Graf Lambsdorff, had told him that such support couldn’t continue without going to the people for legitimacy. Rather than see the FDP walk out and side with the opposition CDU, making Helmut Kohl the new chancellor in a CDU-FDP tie-in, Schmidt had moved forward with planned elections. His own position had come under attack from within though and eventually he gave in to that pressure. The terror attacks from the Red Army Faction and the Unterweser nuclear accident, but more so long-standing issues over Schmidt’s so-called militarism and domestic economic & labour problems, had all combined to bring about his downfall. Genscher had been a rock too, one which Lambsdorff certainly wasn’t. Replacing Schmidt to take the party into the election was Hans-Jochen Vogel. He led the SDP campaign where the party officially set out to win a majority yet privately expected to form a coalition once again with the FDP. Vogel and Lambsdorff would work together and keep Kohl out of office. This was the plan. More of the same but with different faces on it. West German voters went to cast their ballots on March 6th. The SDP won the most seats, that wasn’t expected. Coming second was the CDU, neither was that expected. In third place or seats in the Bundestag wasn’t the FDP as everyone knew it would be but instead The Greens took that position. That pesky, chaotic little ecologist party who everyone laughed at took votes from the communists (and other small parties) but more so from the FDP who saw their share of the vote collapse by almost forty percent overall but more in key areas where they lost seats to The Greens. From having zero seats at the last election in ’80, The Greens now had fifty-seven. Seats in the Bundestag were granted on constituency/district basis as well as from party lists. The Greens had been expected to win seats but all from the party list basis: ten, maybe a dozen at best so said the experts. They took more than ten percent of those available including fifteen constituency seats: all the latter from the FDP. The turnout for the election was massive – West Germans liked to do their patriotic duty and vote – with polling stations inundated with voters. It was quite the shock. The FDP were long the party with which coalitions in the Bundestag were formed but they were left with just eighteen seats and when the numbers were crunched, it was The Greens which mattered. Neither the SDP nor the CDU could form a government on their own nor with the FDP. They could work together but that they wouldn’t: both Vogel and Kohl would be thrown out of their party leadership positions for trying to do so. Each approach The Greens and their collective leadership fronted by Petra Kelly. She put it to her colleagues: they all agreed that there couldn’t be any deal struck with the CDU and it would be the SDP to whom they would align themselves with in the Bundestag. Once that was agreed internally, The Greens then approached Vogel and told him what would be the price of their participation in the government. Vogel wasn’t impressed but things could have been worse, far worse. The Greens in their collective leadership weren’t demanding the unthinkable – unilateral disarmament, joining the Warsaw Pact, booting the Americans out on their behinds; none of that silliness –, just some reforms made and their voices really heard. A deal was struck. Kelly and her colleagues would join a parliamentary coalition with the SDP leaving the CDU and the fallen FDP both in opposition… Kelly’s colleagues being men like Rudolf Bahro, Gert Bastian and Joschka Fischer. West Germany’s new future was now to be written by those whose ideas they really hadn’t voted for. I wonder if the Greens are going to be as bad as the Reds.
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Mar 26, 2018 20:37:39 GMT
Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait, everything...
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Mar 26, 2018 20:58:07 GMT
The Greens at that time were people who had some good ideas. Just absolutely and certainly not when it came to foreign policy.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 26, 2018 21:18:12 GMT
I wonder if the Greens are going to be as bad as the Reds. There is different versions of bad. The Greens are chaotic: split between fundamentalists and pragmatists. At least with communists you know what you get. This party, suddenly winning seats with representatives having no experience / clue, will be a disaster for West Germany. Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait, everything... Everything indeed! Just you watch. The Greens at that time were people who had some good ideas. Just absolutely and certainly not when it came to foreign policy. Overall, there doesn't seem to be anything bad / evil in their ideas. The people at the top though...
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 26, 2018 23:19:58 GMT
I wonder if the Greens are going to be as bad as the Reds. There is different versions of bad. The Greens are chaotic: split between fundamentalists and pragmatists. At least with communists you know what you get. This party, suddenly winning seats with representatives having no experience / clue, will be a disaster for West Germany. Yeah, what could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait, everything... Everything indeed! Just you watch. The Greens at that time were people who had some good ideas. Just absolutely and certainly not when it came to foreign policy. Overall, there doesn't seem to be anything bad / evil in their ideas. The people at the top though... Germany is a full functional and developed democracy, she can easily survive some bunch of green (in every sense) representative; sure the goverment will be less efficient and more slow and there will be a lot more gaffe...but this is a coaliation goverment and the rest of the bunch are old 'professional' that will compensate and probably run administrative circle around them...and if they are divided between them it will be even more easy. Frankly just the proposal of retire every nuclear weapon from the nation will spend almost all the political capital of the entire party and it will be possible only through the combination of the Soviet redeployment and Kennedy idiotic foreign politics and in all honestly the moment it become clear where that unit are gone and the invasion of Poland only a few diehard will not go for give the armed forces everything they want. Plus new election in system like that are much more easier to call, when the chaos it's too much and the goverment seem to incompetent.
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