lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2018 19:36:44 GMT
when news came to Vienna that there had been a violent coup d’état in Pakistan. General Zia had been deposed by his fellow military officers. Through the rest of the night, into the next day and across the following days too the situation in Islamabad would be understood better. Pakistan’s military dictator – who’d taken power in ’77 then seen his civilian predecessor hung as a common criminal – was blown up when a bomb detonated in his private residence. Troops led by generals acting under instructions from the ISI military intelligence organisation had taken control over Pakistan’s capital and fought with those loyal to the dead Zia. Civilians had been caught up in the fighting that had gone on for nearly two days before the last resistance (mainly stubborn hold-outs in isolated spots) was overcome. A military council, one of national salvation no less, was in-charge. The generals were only in power for a temporary period, that was what they told their people anyway. As it would turn out, that was a lie. They had power and wouldn’t be giving it up for anytime soon. This military government would afterwards see the United States cut off aid and the last of friendly relations severed as the Kennedy Administration stuck to its stated policy on that matter once there came credible intelligence of gross human abuses following an internal crackdown. Islamabad didn’t suddenly switch camps in the Cold War and go over to the Soviets as some might have feared they could do: that was never a possibility despite a Soviet hand in igniting the coup but that hand had been pulled back afterwards. Instead, Pakistan was no longer interested in Afghanistan but rather facing down India and strengthening its relationship with China (Moscow hadn’t anticipated that later bit). The generals were no longer prepared to antagonise the Soviet Union over its actions in countries on Pakistan’s western borders – Iran neighboured Pakistan like Afghanistan did – as they focused on their eastern border with Pakistan’s most-implacable enemy there. It would be a cold conflict though, not one about to get hot. Wait was Pakistan not also already pro-Chinese by then.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 5, 2018 19:43:25 GMT
Pakistan had good relations with China. Now they will be strengthened. Moscow though that that wouldn't occur but they misjudged those generals on that matter though not on others. This isn't all their work, Pakistanis did this: all the KGB did was help with the opportunity behind the scenes and let the locals get on with it. Kennedy won't deal with undemocratic regimes - anti-Soviet or not - and Pakistan has just got one of those.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2018 19:47:50 GMT
Pakistan had good relations with China. Now they will be strengthened. Moscow though that that wouldn't occur but they misjudged those generals on that matter though not on others. This isn't all their work, Pakistanis did this: all the KGB did was help with the opportunity behind the scenes and let the locals get on with it. Kennedy won't deal with undemocratic regimes - anti-Soviet or not - and Pakistan has just got one of those. India will in turn drift more in the Pro-Soviet sphere because of this.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 5, 2018 19:53:42 GMT
Pakistan had good relations with China. Now they will be strengthened. Moscow though that that wouldn't occur but they misjudged those generals on that matter though not on others. This isn't all their work, Pakistanis did this: all the KGB did was help with the opportunity behind the scenes and let the locals get on with it. Kennedy won't deal with undemocratic regimes - anti-Soviet or not - and Pakistan has just got one of those. India will in turn drift more in the Pro-Soviet sphere because of this. A benefit for Moscow indeed!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2018 19:56:49 GMT
India will in turn drift more in the Pro-Soviet sphere because of this. A benefit for Moscow indeed! Wonder if that was their plan, the mange to get Pakistan out of intervening with Soviet operations in Afghanistan and get a nervous India to relay more on them that they were before.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 5, 2018 20:08:50 GMT
If it wasn't, it should have been! Cutting off the last access routes to remaining rebels in Afghanistan and Iran too was the key. America's animosity and the India matter are bonus features. They couldn't get the leader they wanted - Pakistan wasn't flush with communists - but neutrals towards them are good enough.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2018 20:12:05 GMT
If it wasn't, it should have been! Cutting off the last access routes to remaining rebels in Afghanistan and Iran too was the key. America's animosity and the India matter are bonus features. They couldn't get the leader they wanted - Pakistan wasn't flush with communists - but neutrals towards them are good enough. Well I know one thing, in this timeline the CIA will not provide the Afghan Rebels with stingers and other stuff they got in OTL, that is unless I am wrong.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 5, 2018 20:19:10 GMT
If it wasn't, it should have been! Cutting off the last access routes to remaining rebels in Afghanistan and Iran too was the key. America's animosity and the India matter are bonus features. They couldn't get the leader they wanted - Pakistan wasn't flush with communists - but neutrals towards them are good enough. Well I know one thing, in this timeline the CIA will not provide the Afghan Rebels with stingers and other stuff they got in OTL, that is unless I am wrong. Nothing like that has come. There is no multi-national effort to do anything like it with any weapons let alone anything like a weapon such as the Stinger.
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Mar 5, 2018 21:40:33 GMT
The coup in Pakistan...interesting. Methinks this will be one of the fronts in the eventual World War III (with India-China-Pakistan)...
As for the SS-20 being withdrawn...uh, oh, I have a very bad feeling as to where they will wind up (and, if true, this will be deja vu for many in the US)...
With regards to the nuke targets, I know that, in one of the Red Dawn threads, NYC was nuked on the first day; this might happen here, IMO, especially since New York is the US's biggest city, is the financial capital of the US, and has the headquarters of the three major networks (ABC, NBC, and CBS). Knocking out New York will cause chaos in the US for the above-mentioned reasons...
Waiting for more, and dreading the buildup...
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 5, 2018 22:00:39 GMT
I was thinking more the URSS-Chinese border and maybe the caucasus...just to make thing more complicated in the region
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 5, 2018 22:35:55 GMT
The coup in Pakistan...interesting. Methinks this will be one of the fronts in the eventual World War III (with India-China-Pakistan)... As for the SS-20 being withdrawn...uh, oh, I have a very bad feeling as to where they will wind up (and, if true, this will be deja vu for many in the US)... With regards to the nuke targets, I know that, in one of the Red Dawn threads, NYC was nuked on the first day; this might happen here, IMO, especially since New York is the US's biggest city, is the financial capital of the US, and has the headquarters of the three major networks (ABC, NBC, and CBS). Knocking out New York will cause chaos in the US for the above-mentioned reasons... Waiting for more, and dreading the buildup... Some interesting ideas here. You betcha I will be thinking on these. As to New York, that isn't a route I want to go down. That's Matt's story idea to be honest plus I am following the majority of the canon.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 6, 2018 13:10:35 GMT
On the other hand, in the event of an attack on Belize not only does Britain have bases in the country itself, even if Kennedy is an idiot and opposed supporting Britain in such an event there are other Commonwealth states in the region and also some of the other local states would likely to unhappy with continued communist aggression. In May 1981 the Royal Navy has one Invincible-class aircraft carrier (HMS Invincible) and two under construction and two Centaur-class aircraft carriers (HMS Bulwark and HMS Hermes) who might be used if i am correct. Yes but my point is that the original POD was some time before that so events might well be changed. Especially with a far more threatening world with the ME in turmoil and along with chunks of Central America coming under communist control Ark Royal might be saved, or probably more alternatively Britain might have boosted its defence spending, especially on the fleet. If it decided to keep all three Illustrious class small CVs for instance and not show other weaknesses then Argentina may well not try a grab but as James say a conflict with Guatemala is very likely. Especially with an openly anti-British President in the US its an obvious possibility to split NATO.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 6, 2018 13:17:08 GMT
The coup in Pakistan...interesting. Methinks this will be one of the fronts in the eventual World War III (with India-China-Pakistan)... As for the SS-20 being withdrawn...uh, oh, I have a very bad feeling as to where they will wind up (and, if true, this will be deja vu for many in the US)... With regards to the nuke targets, I know that, in one of the Red Dawn threads, NYC was nuked on the first day; this might happen here, IMO, especially since New York is the US's biggest city, is the financial capital of the US, and has the headquarters of the three major networks (ABC, NBC, and CBS). Knocking out New York will cause chaos in the US for the above-mentioned reasons... Waiting for more, and dreading the buildup... Has anything been said that they would? I know Kennedy seems to think if he cancels NATO's response to their initial deployment the Soviets might withdraw them but I think that's just another delusion on his part. If they did get withdrawn then most likely most would go to the Chinese border. Although not sure if they have the range to reach deep into China. I can't see them being deployed into the Americas as that would be too much of a red flag to the US as well as in at least implicit breach of the agreement that ended the OTL Cuban Crisis. Even with Kennedy in the White House you would see some, probably very strong reaction to that as well as ensuring he disappears at the next election if not sooner.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 6, 2018 13:26:44 GMT
stevep the 81 white paper reflects these changes and Britain will struggle to pay for all that the international situation demands. It puts off Argentina from the Falklands. I'm thinking about the Royal Navy and carriers. As to the SS-20s which caused all that concern, Gromyko has just told Mondale they will be removed and removed they will. Kennedy gets his win over his critics, the first of many wins... not wins down the line. Some missiles later to Latin America and I like your idea of sending some to Siberia and the Chinese frontier.
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 6, 2018 13:34:40 GMT
In May 1981 the Royal Navy has one Invincible-class aircraft carrier (HMS Invincible) and two under construction and two Centaur-class aircraft carriers (HMS Bulwark and HMS Hermes) who might be used if i am correct. Yes but my point is that the original POD was some time before that so events might well be changed. Especially with a far more threatening world with the ME in turmoil and along with chunks of Central America coming under communist control Ark Royal might be saved, or probably more alternatively Britain might have boosted its defence spending, especially on the fleet. If it decided to keep all three Illustrious class small CVs for instance and not show other weaknesses then Argentina may well not try a grab but as James say a conflict with Guatemala is very likely. Especially with an openly anti-British President in the US its an obvious possibility to split NATO. I don't know, from what i read by the time she was decomissioned, mantenaince was very complicated and very costly...so there will need a massive work to make her possible continuing to serve instead to pass half of the time in trying to patch thing up. The problem is that money is tight, for this reason i said that somekind of indsight it's necessary to cut some program that in OTL simply wasted money without any result (Nimrod AEW and SP-70 among them)
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