James G
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 18:25:51 GMT
Wow. Didn't see that coming. RIP John Paul II; this is going to complicate things (and there was apparently a laundering operation at the Vatican Bank IOTL; it was part of the inspiration for The Godfather, Part III, IIRC)... If the KGB (assuming...wait, they are behind this, aren't they?) wants to do more damage to the Catholic Church, somehow steal any files they have on their pedophile priests and release them to the media; that'll do further damage and cause more turmoil, IMO (BTW, there were a lot of them in the Boston area, Kennedy's home area)... Waiting for more... I did think of the child abuse issue but this is 1981 and things were different then. Plus, writing that, using it as a plot line, didn't sit well with me. The Bulgarians did the actual fire - it will look like arson to any competent fire investigator - and dealt with the Pope in the midst of that. The KGB were behind the leaks before and the ones coming afterwards. The questions will be why the archives building first? What was in those records? Was it being burnt? Who was burning it? What are they covering up there in the Vatican? That sort of thing. All to distract from the real intent which was for someone whacking John Paul II. The next Pope will have little time to focus on criticism of the USSR when there is a Vatican needing repairs and lingering questions. That is my plan anyway. It is all a distraction effort.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 18:26:53 GMT
(56)
May 1981:
Bobby Sands died on May 5th. He’d been elected to Parliament less than a month beforehand though, naturally, didn’t take up his seat as he remained in jail on his hunger strike. It was there in the Maze Prison that he died: legal arguments would commence over whether his death certificate should read ‘starvation’ or ‘self-imposed starvation’. Other prisoners would later die too though it would be Sands who would be remembered for his was the first striker, the first to die and the one elected to Parliament. That act of becoming an MP while on hunger strike in jail had brought international attention beyond what had already came and saw the worldwide reactions to his death. Those reactions were unwanted by the British Government though welcomed by others, those being the ones who’d been pushing for recognition of ‘the cause’.
Soviet diplomatic statements were joined from those across the Eastern Bloc – including Poland which was seeking to distract their people from their mourning over the demise of the Pope – in criticising what was deemed an ‘imperialist conflict’ in Northern Ireland. State sponsored events were organised to commemorate Sands’ death with a major effort made to play up the propaganda effect when there had recently come negative comments on deaths in Poland and other allegations of restrictions behind the Iron Curtain. From communist-led Iran, the street on which the British Embassy sat, where diplomats hadn’t long returned to after leaving during the revolution and the Soviet invasion, was renamed Bobby Sands Street with signs saying Winston Churchill Boulevard removed. Libya’s dictator was quite moved by what he regarded as a sacrifice and praised the ‘struggle for freedom’ in public though wanted to see more before he would consider starting to send arms to the IRA again. Within Australia, France, Norway, the Palestinian occupied territories and Portugal, there were local events in protest against Britain and in commemoration of Sands.
In many parts of the United States, there was condemnation of Sands and the IRA rather than Britain. Not all Americans were duped by IRA propaganda nor wanted to fill the cash buckets send around bars to donate money to ‘the cause’. Many more Americans wouldn’t want to give financial nor moral support if they were aware of many of the links the IRA but also other Irish Republican terror groups had with regimes around the world that were enemies of the United States. Regardless of the sensible behaviour of many, there came the idiocy from others. Sands got his martyrdom from plenty of Americans. The President of the United States was included among those. As before, he ignored established diplomatic protocol and went on the attack with a public statement that was quite inflammatory. He just couldn’t stop himself it seemed… though there might have been something more to that than initially met the eye. In a private message back to London, the British Ambassador made note of troubles that Kennedy was having getting his keynote domestic legislation through Congress. Lawmakers were sceptical of the universal free healthcare bill being pushed by Kennedy surrogates through the House of Representatives and even with Speaker O’Neill on side, that was still being held up. The ambassador speculated that Sands’ death might be rather convenient for Kennedy as a foreign distraction at times of domestic problems. This was the first time that something previously only speculated had been treated with such seriousness as to go in an official diplomatic communique: other ambassadors from various countries in the coming months and years ahead would say the same thing when it came to Kennedy make a big deal of foreign affairs when he faced domestic trouble at home, including his later personal scandals.
There were some in Whitehall who wanted to tell the American president where exactly to stick his outrageous comments upon Sands’ death, that being where the sun didn’t shine. Those were private remarks though, not ones that left Cabinet. Thatcher brought her top-level of government together in response as they had an emergency meeting. Some ideas mentioned before when the hunger strike started were looked at again. Mondale had either passed on Carrington’s warning from their Brussels meeting that Britain wouldn’t stand for this to see it ignored by his president or he hadn’t done so at all. Regardless, fair warning had been given and it had been disregarded. There were other hunger strikers and Britain wasn’t about to cave into their demands. All indications said that Kennedy really didn’t give a damn about diplomatic niceties and would carry on with his attacks against Britain each time one of them died too. The Cabinet decided to act. There was a lot of risk involved yet the belief was that it was worth it and the response was something that a lot of thought had been put into.
As an ongoing courtesy going back many years, the CIA station chief in London was invited to the weekly meetings of the Joint Intelligence Committee, an official government body. The next meeting after Kennedy’s statement saw the meeting moved to a new location at the last minute. There were some urgent repairs needed at the building where it was held which included workmen showing up in hardhats and standing around smoking or eating bacon & egg sandwiches. Didn’t the station chief get the message over a change in venue? He was taken out for dinner that night as a form of apology with a nice meal brought for him by the head of MI-6. That committee chairman, Sir Antony Acland, an experience diplomat with the FCO, showed up to the dinner towards the end and carefully explained the displeasure in Whitehall at Kennedy’s behaviour. The next day saw an interruption in communications traffic passed on between Britain’s GCHQ and the NSA at Fort Meade either direct or through intermediate stations across the UK. There were technical difficulties and apologies were sent for the delay which last exactly twenty-four hours and not a second more. GCHQ’s director flew out to Maryland afterwards to personally apologise for those technical difficulties yet also to get his opposite number to understand that Anglo-American relations were being put at risk by the American president. If only someone could talk some sense into him…?
There was a lot more that could have been done. Carrington could have tried again with Mondale. The ambassador in Washington could have requested an audience with Kennedy. Thatcher could have personally called the president. Further ties could have been properly cut in the intelligence field and creative problems could have popped up in the defence co-operation field. Cabinet had discussed these options though discounted any successes from them. The idea instead was to get other Americans to talk to Kennedy themselves and remind him of the value of relations with Britain in a field that mattered to the United States more than anything else: British contribution to American intelligence-gathering. Kennedy wasn’t a fan of the CIA – he had less of an issue with the NSA and the other alphabet soup of agencies in the intelligence field – but the belief was that this approach would work. Whitehall also understood the significance of Vice President Glenn in the US Government and were quite sure that the heads of the CIA and the NSA would go to him first as he was someone already seen on their side: Glenn carried more weight with Kennedy than anyone British did. Doing anything more could cause a major break in Anglo-American relations and that wasn’t what Thatcher nor Cabinet wanted. They just wanted to remind Kennedy that Britain had influence and couldn’t be treated in this manner.
This gentle approach tied into other important matters at the time that Britain didn’t want to see put into jeopardy by doing anything stupid (stupid as being the idea from one of those in Cabinet to have the National Grid enforce technical difficulties on the supply of power to an American airbase: such a thing was something seen as being very unfriendly) to destroy relations with the United States. Kennedy was temporary after all. Four years at least, eight years at the outset. There were so many others across the Atlantic who were long-standing friends of Britain even with this Anglophobe in the White House.
Guatemala was showing further hostility towards Belize and the latter nation in Central America relied on British support. If push came to shove, if the now-communist Guatemala decided to forcibly annex Belize, they would have to fight British troops on the ground there. Maybe Guatemala might make that mistake if there were visible signs of open hostility between London and Washington? Furthermore, Cabinet was still looking over the proposals from Defence Secretary John Nott (not long in his post at the MOD) to restructure the UK Armed Forces in times of real economic pressure. His white paper was due to be presented to Parliament next month. With the Soviets acting as they were in leading aggression elsewhere in the world but in Europe, yet still with an almighty strong military force of theirs sitting across the Iron Curtain, the white paper reflected that with a recognised need for Britain to remained committed to NATO defences yet also be able to play a (limited) role elsewhere in the world. Money was tight, oh-so-very tight. American co-operation was needed for these twin commitments to be made. There was a deal in the pipeline – going back several years – for Britain to have access to the family of cruise missiles which the Americans had developed not just for ground launch with GLCMs but naval and airborne systems too. Ford’s Pentagon under Rumsfeld had pushed cruise missile work and Britain had been involved in that. The cruise missiles were soon to be built and Britain would get its share of them on favourable terms thrashed out initially between Callaghan and Ford. Pushing Kennedy too far could see that all thrown out of the window. Britain had to be careful. Kennedy seemed sometimes to act without thinking – that new speculation on motives was only speculation at the moment: not officially recognised – and why twist the tiger’s tail when it can just be tapped?
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Mar 4, 2018 19:01:06 GMT
I did think of the child abuse issue but this is 1981 and things were different then. Plus, writing that, using it as a plot line, didn't sit well with me. I understand, James G. Waiting for more... Edit: Saw the latest update, BTW. Man, the British are probably wishing Bobby Kennedy were president; he'd be more sensible, IMO, over the Irish issue... This probably represents the British and many Americans' view on Ted Kennedy's position with regards to Bobby Sands: gta-myths.wikia.com/wiki/File:Triple_Facepalm.jpg
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 4, 2018 20:08:19 GMT
Well for the British to save money and mantain some significant, somekind of hindsight will be needed as some military program really need to go:
- The Nimrod AEW it's money sinkpit that never give any significant result and in the end, after having spent a billion of pound , that had bought the E3A Sentry...as originally planned - The SP-70 it's the same, only instead of only the UK, also Germany and Italy are involved in this waste of time and resources (maybe a general program for upgrade the M109, better if other nation are brought in to share the cost)
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 4, 2018 20:10:37 GMT
Nice updates James, keep them coming.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 20:32:08 GMT
I did think of the child abuse issue but this is 1981 and things were different then. Plus, writing that, using it as a plot line, didn't sit well with me. I understand, James G. Waiting for more... Edit: Saw the latest update, BTW. Man, the British are probably wishing Bobby Kennedy were president; he'd be more sensible, IMO, over the Irish issue... This probably represents the British and many Americans' view on Ted Kennedy's position with regards to Bobby Sands: gta-myths.wikia.com/wiki/File:Triple_Facepalm.jpgLondon is hoping that Kennedy will get the message. That depends on whether he gets distracted elsewhere in the world. They might be in luck there. Though that could turn out to be a temporary reprieve and not so good in the long run.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 20:56:26 GMT
Nice updates James, keep them coming. Thank you. So much more to come.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 4, 2018 23:01:49 GMT
Just catching up. Had been worried about Guatemala threatening Belize as well. Could be a lot more likely with Kennedy being such a idiot. Belize didn't actually get independence until 21-9-81 OTL in large part because of the threat from Guatemala and British troops stayed in the colony for a while afterwards to deter such an attack. Its possible that with a communist Guatemala and an anti-British moron in the White House they could have to fight to do that.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 23:09:08 GMT
Just catching up. Had been worried about Guatemala threatening Belize as well. Could be a lot more likely with Kennedy being such a idiot. Belize didn't actually get independence until 21-9-81 OTL in large part because of the threat from Guatemala and British troops stayed in the colony for a while afterwards to deter such an attack. Its possible that with a communist Guatemala and an anti-British moron in the White House they could have to fight to do that. Damn, I'd forgotten to check the actual independence date. I was working off my notes for version 1 of the story where the threat was in later years. I'll make sure I get it right when we get to Belize. And we will get to Belize too with British troops and Harriers there.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2018 14:56:24 GMT
Just catching up. Had been worried about Guatemala threatening Belize as well. To bad the Royal Navy cannot send this HMS Ark Royal to show force and to remind Guatemala to be nice.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2018 17:26:04 GMT
Just catching up. Had been worried about Guatemala threatening Belize as well. To bad the Royal Navy cannot send this HMS Ark Royal to show force and to remind Guatemala to be nice. Well technically she was only decommissioned in 79 so some time after the POD. It might be that butterflies mean she could have a longer service life. She only served ~24 years which was a fairly short life for a carrier of her size. Although with her sister ship being gone already she's not much use on her own. Possibly however in TTL with a greater threat from the Soviets the so called through-deck cruisers might be designed larger and more capable. On the other hand, in the event of an attack on Belize not only does Britain have bases in the country itself, even if Kennedy is an idiot and opposed supporting Britain in such an event there are other Commonwealth states in the region and also some of the other local states would likely to unhappy with continued communist aggression.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 5, 2018 17:37:55 GMT
On the other hand, in the event of an attack on Belize not only does Britain have bases in the country itself, even if Kennedy is an idiot and opposed supporting Britain in such an event there are other Commonwealth states in the region and also some of the other local states would likely to unhappy with continued communist aggression. In May 1981 the Royal Navy has one Invincible-class aircraft carrier (HMS Invincible) and two under construction and two Centaur-class aircraft carriers (HMS Bulwark and HMS Hermes) who might be used if i am correct.
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 5, 2018 18:02:19 GMT
More than Guatemala the real problem for the British-American relations will be Argentina if they go with the invasion and Kennedy botched it; said that in general things have not gone so horrible if the UK fight at the US side during the war (or at the side of Canada and only by 'accident' at the US side?)
With the current geo-political situation it's very probable that the 1981 white paper will be taken and throw in the dustbin
Edit: as a note, with all the mess that's the Middle-east now, what happened at the 'Century contract' signed by Fincantieri and the Iraqui goverment? OTL the italian firm built for Saddam an entire new fleet ( 4 frigate, 6 destroyers and a support ship, plus general logistic support and other perk) but the war with Iran stopped the consigment due the international embargo.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 5, 2018 19:31:47 GMT
A conflict between Guatemala and its backers v Belize and Britain will be in 1982. Still figuring it out. As to Belize, it isn't the South Atlantic but then there are other matters to play into it. this time next week (hopefully) I shall have the conflict. There will be no Falklands War. Argentina hasn't been put in the economic situation it ended up in plus Britain's worldwide defence commitment in this story is stuck to whereas in OTL things went different with a weakness publicly shown (as far as Argentina was concerned). I'll get to it soon enough.
Something different before then. International diplomacy then events in the Middle East; the latter concerning 'the game with Saddam' which will come after an historic meeting in Vienna.
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 5, 2018 19:34:02 GMT
(57)
June 1981:
The United Nations had substantial offices in Geneva and Vienna as well as in New York. Much work was done in the Swiss and Austrian cities away from the hustle and bustle of New York. It was at the UN complex in Austria where Gromyko and Mondale met in June. The Soviet foreign minister – often referred to in certain Western diplomatic circles as ‘Mr. Neyt’ – and Kennedy’s secretary of state had an informal, face-to-face meeting where mutual concerns & interests were covered. The UN provided the service of interpreters and facilities, for the goodwill of all. The meeting had taken some time to set up but eventually the two of them sat down together to talk on behalf of their governments.
Mondale explained the view of his president when it came to improving relations between the United States and the Soviet Union following the collapse of them last year. The end of détente was not something that his president regarded as a good thing. The tension was destabilising and brought with it the risk of accidents and misunderstandings which could lead to loss of life. The Kennedy Administration wanted a reset in relations between Washington and Moscow. There was a new hope within the administration which he served that events of 1980 could be moved past. Mondale spoke of the seriousness of intent in his president to achieve a re-stabilisation and raised the issue of the cancellation of the deploy of those GLCM missiles to Western Europe as well as the Kennedy Administration continuing to abide by the terms of the SALT II treaty despite ‘political issues at home’. He moved to praise the Soviet Union for its continued following of the Helsinki Accords signed back in 1975, agreements which Kennedy had much admiration for, despite the breakdown in relations elsewhere. Moreover, the recent notification of Soviet-led military exercises in Europe – the now ongoing Shield exercises in Bulgaria, August’s planned Bear war games in the Arctic and the Zapad exercises in the Baltic regions – was welcomed too. Following these examples of cooperation even at tense times, Mondale hoped for more. The United States was prepared to work with the Soviet Union to get past other areas of difficulty between the two countries.
In response, Gromyko dropped his bombshell revelation. He gave Mondale – and thus Kennedy too – something they both couldn’t have dreamed of getting at such an early exchange. The Soviet Union was ready and willing to remove their SS-20 missiles from Eastern Europe, all of Eastern Europe beyond the borders of the Soviet Union. Gromyko didn’t explain the real reasons why this was the case (it was a Soviet internal matter with Andropov having decided there was a game to be played despite Ustinov’s objections and his love affair with the Soviet military industrial complex) and only said that his country was ready to remove those missiles. In fact, it was possible that after being redeployed out of Eastern Europe, such weapons might even be later destroyed too if there would be a treaty on such weapons. That was for later though, and the Soviet Union would be pleased to see something in return should things hopefully come to that, but for now, those missiles would be redeployed. Such remarks from Mr. Neyt – who hadn’t said no to anything but instead only yes before being asked – left Mondale stunned. He was pleased but shocked at such a concession. Gromyko made it clear that his commitment was firm and it carried the weight of the full Politburo. There would be no strung-out delays nor haggling. As long as his country had the word of Mondale and President Kennedy too that no nuclear-armed cruise missiles were coming to Western Europe, the intermediate-range ballistic missiles in Soviet service would be withdrawn soon enough.
A handshake took place to seal the deal. This was agreed now though Gromyko suggested that at some point in the following months, Andropov and Kennedy should meet: there were other matters that they could clear up between them that maybe he and Mondale might not be able to get around. The UN representative in the room, sent by the secretary general to assist in any negotiations and help defuse arguments should any occur, was as stunned as Mondale and his State Department people were. The UN hadn’t been needed on this matter, which was both a positive and negative thing, it depended upon your point of view on how international diplomacy should go. What the diplomat did do instead was to first offer to help host any possible Soviet-US summit. In addition, afterwards he arranged for communications with home countries for the two men to share the good news then he offered to provide some entertainment for the evening. Vienna was a historic city with plenty of culture. They agreed to go to the opera. There were smiles all round as the only dispute in the room was over what to see. Everyone was friends!
Mondale didn’t make it to the opera that night. He passed on the message of extraordinary cooperation back home and the news that the Soviets were pulling out their missiles. His president would be cock-a-hoop. Mondale knew that with such a ‘victory’, Kennedy would be able to silence his detractors (at home and abroad) on the matter of his way – the Sinatra Doctrine – of dealing with the Soviet Union. Mondale’s own joy at such diplomatic success was broken though when news came to Vienna that there had been a violent coup d’état in Pakistan. General Zia had been deposed by his fellow military officers.
Through the rest of the night, into the next day and across the following days too the situation in Islamabad would be understood better. Pakistan’s military dictator – who’d taken power in ’77 then seen his civilian predecessor hung as a common criminal – was blown up when a bomb detonated in his private residence. Troops led by generals acting under instructions from the ISI military intelligence organisation had taken control over Pakistan’s capital and fought with those loyal to the dead Zia. Civilians had been caught up in the fighting that had gone on for nearly two days before the last resistance (mainly stubborn hold-outs in isolated spots) was overcome. A military council, one of national salvation no less, was in-charge. The generals were only in power for a temporary period, that was what they told their people anyway. As it would turn out, that was a lie. They had power and wouldn’t be giving it up for anytime soon. This military government would afterwards see the United States cut off aid and the last of friendly relations severed as the Kennedy Administration stuck to its stated policy on that matter once there came credible intelligence of gross human abuses following an internal crackdown. Islamabad didn’t suddenly switch camps in the Cold War and go over to the Soviets as some might have feared they could do: that was never a possibility despite a Soviet hand in igniting the coup but that hand had been pulled back afterwards. Instead, Pakistan was no longer interested in Afghanistan but rather facing down India and strengthening its relationship with China (Moscow hadn’t anticipated that later bit). The generals were no longer prepared to antagonise the Soviet Union over its actions in countries on Pakistan’s western borders – Iran neighboured Pakistan like Afghanistan did – as they focused on their eastern border with Pakistan’s most-implacable enemy there. It would be a cold conflict though, not one about to get hot.
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