James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Mar 3, 2018 21:28:10 GMT
Yeah, Ted Kennedy ain't going to be seen as a good president by any stretch of the imagination... All this in two months. Imagine several years of this behaviour? His focus will be on domestic matters but every time he dips into foreign affairs, this won't go good. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 3, 2018 21:29:21 GMT
Yeah, Ted Kennedy ain't going to be seen as a good president by any stretch of the imagination... All this in two months. Imagine several years of this behaviour? His focus will be on domestic matters but every time he dips into foreign affairs, this won't go good. And the Soviets will take a advantage of it and West Europe will hate Kennedy for it. |
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 3, 2018 21:52:14 GMT
It's really a 'shame' that the NATO contract for the substitute of the F-104 has already been assigned to the F-16; the european nato member will have now chosen the F-1E (a very close second) so to send a message to Washington
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 3, 2018 21:54:25 GMT
It's really a 'shame' that the NATO contract for the substitute of the F-104 has already been assigned to the F-16; the european nato member will have now chosen the F-1E (a very close second) so to send a message to Washington You mean the Dassault Mirage F1. |
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 3, 2018 22:06:31 GMT
It's really a 'shame' that the NATO contract for the substitute of the F-104 has already been assigned to the F-16; the european nato member will have now chosen the F-1E (a very close second) so to send a message to Washington You mean the Dassault Mirage F1. Yes, the original Mirage F1-E, later renamed F1-M53 due to using the SNECMA M-53 engine |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 3, 2018 22:11:35 GMT
You mean the Dassault Mirage F1. Yes, the original Mirage F1-E, later renamed F1-M53 due to using the SNECMA M-53 engine No other project the Europeans could chose from, ore other nations like Sweden, |
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 3, 2018 23:24:18 GMT
Yes, the original Mirage F1-E, later renamed F1-M53 due to using the SNECMA M-53 engine No other project the Europeans could chose from, ore other nations like Sweden, Not really and the F1 was quite close to the F16 in term of performance; speaking of european program, at least locally aka in Italy the feeling that the USA are leaving the continent alone will mean that the Armed Forces in general will get more attention. The more pressing thing will be substitute the 'flying coffin' aka the f-104 (the last of the 205 consigned in 1979) and upgraded at the S variant in the middle 80's; some solution are simply order the ADV of the Tornado (the up are that this will bring the general cost down and there will be some industrial incentive for Italy, but the down will be the high training and mantenaince cost), the other is purchase the F-16 or the F-1 (if the French are ready to make a good offer). Some money can be saved by terminate the AMX project (even if in the end the aircraft obtained was good, it was an extremely lenghtly and costly affair) and instead get the MB339K the attack version of the more famous trainer of the aermacchi. The other more urgent program is the upgrade of the armor park, but a general upgrade of the already present unit of Leopard 1 and M-60 to a more modern version can resolve the situation |
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archangel
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Post by archangel on Mar 4, 2018 1:41:26 GMT
lukedalton and stevep are right. Everyone will suspect it was the Soviets who ordered it, and it would certainly make the communists many extra enemies in catholic countries.
It won't lead to ww3, but it will bolster any resistance (open or covert) to the communists.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 4, 2018 9:00:59 GMT
lukedalton and stevep are right. Everyone will suspect it was the Soviets who ordered it, and it would certainly make the communists many extra enemies in catholic countries. It won't lead to ww3, but it will bolster any resistance (open or covert) to the communists. Well it will bolster the Catholics but i doubt it will bolster Kennedy to take a firm stand against the Soviets, at least that is what i am thinking. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 14:59:22 GMT
All this in two months. Imagine several years of this behaviour? His focus will be on domestic matters but every time he dips into foreign affairs, this won't go good. And the Soviets will take a advantage of it and West Europe will hate Kennedy for it. Yes. That is how it will go. It will be a long drawn-out process but that is the basic idea overall. Relations will ping-pong with many on both sides of the Atlantic trying to repair them before they seen them under immense strain once again. Soviet interference will be minimal: Kennedy and Western Europe's leaders will do all the work and Moscow will take advantage. |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 15:00:38 GMT
lukedalton and stevep are right. Everyone will suspect it was the Soviets who ordered it, and it would certainly make the communists many extra enemies in catholic countries. It won't lead to ww3, but it will bolster any resistance (open or covert) to the communists. Correct, that is how it is going to go. It will be a very confusing situation though with those behind it ready to confuse investigations and spread rumours/ lies/disinformation. |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Mar 4, 2018 15:01:13 GMT
(55)
April 1981:
Events at the Vatican held the attention of many throughout April. Early in the month there were stories which ran in several Italian and Western European newspapers which concerned the unexpected demise of the last Pope, John Paul I, Bishop of Rome for only thirty-three days. There had been rumours for some time that there was more to his death than seemed and the wild allegations had never before seen such treatment given to them as was the case now. It was all very odd. Within those stories, there was the implication that he had been murdered by those wishing to cover up a financial scandal of quite the magnitude where a lot of money had been stolen by various interests. In addition, the Vatican’s own bank had been used to launder money by Mafia and other criminal enterprises. It then seemed to be the case that it was open season on attacking the Vatican with further allegations being made of not just Vatican ignorance of the plight of European Jews during the Holocaust but instead active participation in that by the means of theft of some of the riches of those being killed by the Nazis in the 1940s. This was all lies, so many would agree, and being spread by those with an aim to smear the Catholic Church. There was a lot of apparent evidence presented though and some of it seemed to have substance to it. Questions were asked and responses which came were said to be the Vatican wanting to hide something. That attacks initially came from those with a clear ulterior motive though they were followed up by some who were genuinely concerned about what they were hearing then unimpressed by the attitude of the Vatican in addressing their concerns. There had to be something being hidden because of the secrecy being shown!
Everything happened very fast with the torrent of allegations. Vatican reactions were to dismiss the claims and deny them oxygen of publicity by refusing to go any further than that. Such an approach didn’t work when the drip-drip effect of more and more claims were made. The Vatican didn’t have a strong public relations team nor spokesmen used to dealing with anything like this. Their approach was sloppy and left them open to have more mud slung at them. Some friends now had questions to ask of the Vatican whereas before it had only been opponents.
Then there was the Great Vatican Fire of April 24th. Significant parts of the Vatican’s buildings when up in flames that night. There was an initial fire inside a building housing many archives, which then inexplicably managed to spread elsewhere through the complex in the heart of Rome. The city’s fire service was fast on the scene and were quick to begin evacuating people. John Paul II was soon out of danger though he demanded to go back in and help rescue more people: he wouldn’t listen to those who said it was dangerous. The Sistine Chapel and St. Peter’s Basilica – world famous sites – were saved by the efforts of Rome’s firefighters though the Vatican Museums took a lot of damage to them. In addition, there was much fire damage done to the Apostolic Palace: the official residence of the Pope and his predecessors. John Paul II led from the front a rescue effort to save some of the missing who were believed to be in there and wouldn’t brook no argument on that. He went in with other volunteers, right into the fire and refused to listen to the firefighters demanding that the volunteers stay back. However, soon afterwards the Vatican’s Secretary of State, Cardinal Casaroli, led most of those inside out through a rear exit as he saved many lives.
The body of John Paul II, along with several other would-be rescuers, was found the next morning. The Pope had been overcome by the smoke. He had died a hero and Italy would grieve his passing, so too would much of the Catholic world. John Paul II, born in Poland as Karol Józef Wojtyła back in 1920, had seen his reign last two and a half years. One of the biggest investigations in Italian legal history commenced afterwards though there were those ready straight away to subvert that in all sorts of manners to hide the truth of it all.
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 4, 2018 15:34:42 GMT
With the death of the Pope in the fire, the italian authority (that will work with the Vatican, as technically the 'incident' happened in a foreign country as the Holy See it's own nation) will revolt a dozen of times even the most little rock to understand what happened and it's assured that they will bring any help possible...so the ruse that this is has been a very unfortune event will not last for long, even if the entire communist propaganda machine will be used to deflect this kind of allegation.
Said that, the entire affair look like more as an attempted warning 'mafia style' gone so wrong that's not even funny than a real assasination plot, this mean that not only the KGB (and in general soviet authorities) will be in panic mode as now not only they have created a martyr but are also risking a diplomatic shitstorm that will make the Berlin Wall Crisis look like a nice chat at the bar if they are discovered.
In Italy, as the suspect that the fire has not been an incident, the repercussion will be subtle but strong, Berlinguer will probably amp up the personal security as if they are ready to kill a Pope for speak against them...well better be safe than sorry and i doubt that further invitation to come in Russia...or other soviet controlled nation will be accepted.
For Italy this will be the third great terrorist attack in a couple of year if things have gone as OTL; the bomb at the train station of Bologna, the disappering of the Itavia flight over Ustica (but there is a lot of way that will not happen due to the already massive butterfly if the missile theory it's right).
The only bright side of this it's the fact that even the suspect of a terrorist act will cause a nation wide crackdown on both terrorism and criminality with both Brigate Rosse (and other group) and Mafia keeping the head down till the storm is passed
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lordbyron
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Post by lordbyron on Mar 4, 2018 16:52:08 GMT
Wow. Didn't see that coming. RIP John Paul II; this is going to complicate things (and there was apparently a laundering operation at the Vatican Bank IOTL; it was part of the inspiration for The Godfather, Part III, IIRC)...
If the KGB (assuming...wait, they are behind this, aren't they?) wants to do more damage to the Catholic Church, somehow steal any files they have on their pedophile priests and release them to the media; that'll do further damage and cause more turmoil, IMO (BTW, there were a lot of them in the Boston area, Kennedy's home area)...
Waiting for more...
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Post by lukedalton on Mar 4, 2018 17:36:52 GMT
Wow. Didn't see that coming. RIP John Paul II; this is going to complicate things (and there was apparently a laundering operation at the Vatican Bank IOTL; it was part of the inspiration for The Godfather, Part III, IIRC)... If the KGB (assuming...wait, they are behind this, aren't they?) wants to do more damage to the Catholic Church, somehow steal any files they have on their pedophile priests and release them to the media; that'll do further damage and cause more turmoil, IMO (BTW, there were a lot of them in the Boston area, Kennedy's home area)... Waiting for more... Yep the Banco Ambrosiano scandal and the following death of his chairman Roberto Calvi (first ruled as a suicide but later declared an homicide); it was a gynormous affair that bring together part of the Mafia, part of the higher up of the Vatican and the P2 (a massonic lodge that hold a lot of power till the 70's in Italy thanks to bribe and corruption). The failure of the Bank due to a debt estimated between the 700 and 1500 million theoretically brought together a lot of big names of the Democrazia Cristiana and the Partito Socialista Italiano (like Craxi and Martelli) and higher ups of the Vatican like Paul Marcinkus and much of this corruption was discovered only later during the Mani Pulite trial. If somewhat all that come at light, well we will have this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_puliteFrankly this seem the only way for the PCI to get in power in Italy at the time, but as i said earlier very few in Moscow will be happy about this, Berlinguer by now had openly break from Moscow even if both side try to put a civilizated face on the argument and even in the PCI there is an inevitable fight between the Eurocommunism (that want transform the PCI in basically a modern social-democratic left party) and the old guard; OTL the fight was stopped only by the sudden death of Berlinguer in 1984 due to the consequence of a stroke |
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