stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 9, 2018 10:46:49 GMT
Sweden was, and still is, very well set up to defend itself from Soviet/Russian attack from the east across Finland, they learned a lot from the Winter War, however the Soviets have negated that in two ways: Amphibious Assault Stopping The Swedish Centurions, should devastate the PT-76 Tanks the Soviets have brought if they go on the offensive, IF they can keep Soviet airpower at bay. Still, while it's not many men, (maybe a few hundred thousand), every man stationed in Sweden is one that won't be sent to America or China. I wonder if those Soviet troops know how lucky they are?
Very true on all points, especially since between the Swedes and the RN the Soviets haven't received a massive boost from getting the Baltic fleet out. Although it does leave Norway even more exposed and the RN has taken another battering and given its small size there can't be a lot left. 
If the bloc do suddenly take an hand, since the Soviets have achieved their primary purpose in 'opening' the straits hopefully they will be concentrating on the bloc and both Sweden and the allies will have a much needed breather. That could take a lot of air pressure off both. Also the entry of the bloc would mean its northern fleets and the defences in Denmark before it falls will restrict Soviet actions. It might even make reinforcement of Norway and possibly an advance to aid Sweden possible. [Although some reserves would need to be kept back in case intervention in the south if it looks like the Soviets are getting near the channel ports.]
Might you a lot depends on how things go in N America and what Glenn does once the Soviets are decisively defeated there [hopefully soon]. Do the US concentrate on clearing hostile forces from central America or possibly clearing Iceland to secure the Atlantic and supporting their allies in Europe. Plus also in the Pacific.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 9, 2018 10:54:16 GMT
I wonder if the Soviets will attack central Sweden from Norway. Then again, the Baltic Fleet got out anyways.
Well that would be a problem but the Soviets there are on the end of a pretty long logistical line and also have to consider threats from the allies to the south and if theory from Britain, especially considering the two successful Tiger attacks. Also as you say the Soviets have kind of achieved their target although fortunately there doesn't seem to be a lot left of the Baltic fleet, at least unless there's another wave to come or those ships that pulled back for repairs can be back in action soon. Could well be more than what's left of the RN however so hopefully if the bloc are going to do something they will do it soon. Sounds more like their waiting until the Soviets and allies are bled white in the hope of easy success but with the large forces still in E Europe that's going to be tight and I notice Luke is suddenly a lot less confident that the bloc will be able to handle the Soviets.
The other problem is that with the captured Swedish bases the Soviets can forward base air units and put even more pressure on S Norway and Britain.
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 10, 2018 18:49:42 GMT
I doubt that the answer at the demand to send troops in Europe in case the rest of the EEC enter the fray will be negative; not only the Tatcher and all his goverment will be praise any possible deity for that but there is the need to stop the Soviet to come right in front of Dover and frankly having some base in Western Europe mean that the strategic position of the UK is even more f...ed up; so while showing the diplomatic middle finger can be satisfying for a whole 5 minutes...reality will immediately take control Same for western Europe and Sweden, for how much they don't like Palme and his rethoric, the eventual fall of Sweden and the developing situation in the Med are too much, they basically can spell end at the de-facto independence of that nations; so i doubt that France and co. will be so reactive towards a possible invasion of Sweden and will try to give support at her, maybe the problem is that Bruxelles proposed a membership (even with the 'just for the current crisis' caveat) as a general diplomatic fig leaf to cover her military and diplomatically (and make it easier to sell at Germany) but Palme refused due to the EEC being a little too partial with her neutrality. At least they will try to do some diplomatic wave and give hint to Moscow that's not a good move; sure West Germany will not be thrilled, nevertheless they are gradually being surrounded and doing nothing will simply make the rest of the continent fall to the URSS without a single shot fired and everybody knows it at this stage, plus it's not that Bonn has been the good little boy too scared to do anything, basically all France has done needed German support and while not taking the political lead in this moment will be natural for Germany due to...ehm historical reason and everybody had limits. If the Soviets go west, the British will go back into Western Europe. That was why they spent many months increasing the size but also the capability of a force to stop them. Earlier anger with former allies is still there but that would have to be forgotten because they cannot give the Soviets another front to attack Britain from. So, yes, reality will kick in fast.
Not really, Britain could only commit to such an action when the Soviets were approaching a serious breakthrough. That would still be doing far more than the neutrals did and I can see a lot of Brits arguing that we shouldn't pay more blood and money for those who deserted us. At least unless the bloc is willing to make serious payments in terms of direct aid to reconstruction say. Its the problem when you stab people in the back. They tend to be less than motivated to put out for you when there's no need. The bloc would be paying for their behaviour earlier in the war,
If it looked like the Soviets were making the sort of breakthrough to the Channel and the French weren't going to use nukes its a different matter. However if their stalled somewhere in Germany then there's no reason for Britain to spill more blood for non-allies.
I disagree. I see them going into West Germany, Denmark and the Low Countries - any or all - the moment any attack comes west. The need is there though. The country has been smashed up from the air already and that would only be worse if the Soviets were this side of the Iron Curtain as they would put SRBMs and tactical aircraft to use whereas before it has only bene bombers making long runs. At this point, while not desires, if the West Germans or Danes said no to any British arrival after a Soviet incursion, the only thing to do would be to act regardless.
Damned that's another bloodbath. Looks like the Soviets have lost a lot although their inflicted further allied losses and could make the further defense of Norway impossible, especially given the new air bases the Soviets have as well. Possibly the allies should have responded in kind with nuclear counter-strikes again the Baltic fleet following the Soviet example.
The Soviets have been relatively controlled here, rather than going all out as they have elsewhere. Only taking limited territory to open up the straits.
They used up those shock troops - the last of them - that would have been needed to aid entry into Western Europe proper and they took the loses. So while a victory, it limits further offensive options. There is still a big chunk of Sweden unoccupied between the Soviet area of control and Norway though, yes, the airbases on Swedish soil will be used against Norway. The underwater nuclear blasts are something new and something that can be answered if used again. Grabbing that small bit of territory was all that was needed, for now anyway. Brutal. France won’t stand for European neutrality being so blatantly violated. Sweden must absolutely be the last straw. It will be. This is it, especially in the form it took where there can be no excuse, even a weak one, for the Soviet's action. All that has gone on in Franco-Soviet relations adds into the fallout from this action against the Swedes. We will have to wait and see. Soon, very soon.
They have done for the last 4-5 months. Fortunately it sounds like their finally going to do something which will take the pressure off the allies somewhat.
I'm just figuring out what but it won't be anything minor. It'll be war. Sweden was, and still is, very well set up to defend itself from Soviet/Russian attack from the east across Finland, they learned a lot from the Winter War, however the Soviets have negated that in two ways: Amphibious Assault Stopping The Swedish Centurions, should devastate the PT-76 Tanks the Soviets have brought if they go on the offensive, IF they can keep Soviet airpower at bay. Still, while it's not many men, (maybe a few hundred thousand), every man stationed in Sweden is one that won't be sent to America or China. I wonder if those Soviet troops know how lucky they are? The Soviets looked at an attack through Finland, going through Finland and all that would entail, plus the series of glowing holes in the ground around Leningrad (the rail links for one plus the military bases at the US firing plot there was wide), and also their available light troops and just said to themselves neyt. Both sides are dug-in around a small area of operations. Sweden will have to attack to retake its territory, not doing so is politically impossible especially as Malmo and Helsingborg are on the other side. Soviet air power, plus they've brought in SRBM units too, will cause issues though. The numbers are smaller, maybe 20'000 including support troops. These guys will come home from any war though whereas those sent further afield face an uncertain future. I wonder if the Soviets will attack central Sweden from Norway. Then again, the Baltic Fleet got out anyways. It is doable but hard. 13 ships though, not that many to make it worth it. There are more in the Mediterranean whose presence in the Atlantic would make a real difference. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 10, 2018 18:54:05 GMT
(284a)
January 1985: The Mediterranean
It wasn’t just the Soviet Baltic Fleet attempting to break out successfully into the Atlantic that occurred in the New Year. The Black Sea Fleet, now the Mediterranean Fleet, was ordered to smash through Allied defences of the Gibraltar Straits and get out into open water too. Earlier losses in the war, which had come alongside a smashing victory against the US Navy’s Sixth Fleet, had seen Soviet control over the Eastern Med. not extended further. Egyptian intransigence when it came to their growing reluctance to provide unfettered access to the Suez Canal was something soon planned to be dealt with, yet getting into the Atlantic was more important than the Indian Ocean. Mubarak – a difference character indeed from Palme – would have his attitude ‘corrected’ later. For now, it was all about striking west rather than south. American, British, Portuguese and Spanish forces blocking the way were to be fought and overcome. Instructions from Moscow were that now that the Mediterranean Fleet had been reinforced like it had been, the time was now to do this and do it successfully.
Soviet warships moved west across the Med. Malta was the forward staging point and one which was under French and Italian surveillance from afar. When the Mediterranean Fleet began to move, Paris and Rome let the Allies know. They already had their own foreknowledge of what was coming yet the backchannel lines of communication were used to send thanks for the heads-up regardless. Spain was more important in this keeping open of dialogue with Western Europe more than Britain and the United States was, something that was only going to be of more importance as the year went onwards. Allied reconnaissance spotted a force of more than four dozen surface vessels (warships and support ships) with indications that there would be at least ten, maybe as many as fifteen, submarines below the waters. The Mediterranean Fleet wasn’t holding anything back! The focus was on the big ships, the major surface combatants in military parlance. There were five Soviet warships which met this definition: one aircraft carrier, two helicopter carriers, one battle-cruiser and one missile-cruiser.
The first was the Kuybyshev, a carrier built at the Nikolayev shipyard in the Ukraine. She was first to be called the Baku but had received a name change. Pressures of war had forced her to be delivered into service back in December and she had sailed south to Crete first before then heading to Malta. She had aircraft and helicopters aboard her as well as an impressive missile battery. While the Kuybyshev had been to sea before, this really was her maiden cruise. The two helicopter carriers were the Moskva and the Leningrad. Older and not that effective, their peacetime role was more of propaganda than anything else. They were at war now, serving their country and providing escort for the Mediterranean Fleet against submarine attack and warning of any incoming missile attack. The Kirov-class battle-cruiser heading towards the Gibraltar Straits was the Krasny Oktyabr (translation: Red October). Once planned to be called the Kalinin, this ship had been fitting out in the Black Sea at the beginning of the war and should have gone southwards into the Med. soon afterwards. An accidental missile explosion aboard had done immense damage and saw months of major repairs undertaken first: like the Kuybyshev, the Krasny Oktyabr was on her maiden voyage. Finally, there was the Slava. This warship had been with the carrier Kiev overcoming the US Sixth Fleet before the Spanish had sunk the latter vessel and she herself had been torpedoed by an American submarine. The Slava had been in Crete for emergency repairs before the Greek-Turkish War and then towed all the way to Sevastopol for major work to be undertaken before she could return to sea. Patched-up and with her missile battery reloaded, she was going back to war. The other vessels alongside these were a mix of less-capable cruisers (for anti-submarine work or older vessels from the Strategic Reserve), destroyers, frigates, supply ships and a couple of amphibious ships too.
There were aircraft based on the Kuybyshev, jump-jets in the form of Forgers, and these little fighters could also fly from a trio of civilian roll-on/roll-off ships pressed into military service and with the Mediterranean Fleet though were unable to be rearmed or worked upon when aboard them. That wasn’t going to be enough air cover for the mission to open the Gibraltar Straits. Soviet Air Force and Naval Aviation aircraft were flying from Malta and Libya as well but what was really needed was a forward airbase for support of the Mediterranean Fleet. One would have to be taken and that was why there were those amphibious ships carrying half a brigade of Naval Infantry.
When the Soviet armada got going, the first air attacks went in. Flying from Libya, Backfires struck at the Balearic Islands. Airports on Majorca and Minorca – built for tourists like those on Tenerife in the Canary Islands attacked last month – were home to Spanish aircraft and were hit with missiles fired from distance. Strikes at even greater distance were then made towards mainland Spain, hitting military air sites along the eastern side of the country to disrupt air operations. Under this cover, the forward flotilla of ships split into two: one group crossing the Western Med. using the shortest route to take them towards the Gibraltar Straits direct and the second closer to Algerian waters. Allied attacks were made. There were submarines active and the Spanish Navy hoped to repeat the success that had had last year in sinking the Kiev then again now. They achieved a kill on a destroyer and crippled another but that submarine involved was then struck itself and sunk. Another Spanish submarine had more patience and waited for bigger prey, one of the big ships. It failed to get an attack in though and was driven off by strong anti-submarine warfare efforts. A withdrawal was made with the intention to return once Allied air power and given the Soviets some pain. That was being prepared but before then, that second smaller group of ships moving west started to receive more attention than the Soviets wanted it to this early. The Spanish looked at where it was going.
They were making an approach towards the exclave of Melilla. They were not a series of blockade runners foolishly aiming to crash through the Gibraltar Straits and reach the Azores but going elsewhere.
On the other side of the Alboran Sea across from mainland Spain and stretched along the coast of North Africa where it bordered Morocco, Melilla was a sovereign Spanish holding similar to the bigger Ceuta further west. Melilla had an airport too. Spanish Air Force Mirage F-1 fighter-bombers (some of these purchased from an embargoed Iraqi which France had refused to sell to Saddam and had resold to Spain starting in 1982) had their air strike on the bigger flotilla called of and redirected towards the smaller group. They shot southwards through the skies and made attacks on the Soviets. Missiles climbed up to meet them and even a pair of those Forgers flying from a civilian ship: the latter something that came as an unwelcome surprise. SAMs did more damage than any jump-jet could do though and took out several aircraft. The Spanish got their licks in though as they struck several ships on the surface. A naval task force with destroyers and frigates was also on the way and ready to head off a seizure of Melilla too. However, before they could, transport helicopters were flying from Soviet ships and there was already gunfire at Melilla where naval commandos delivered by a submarine were already in action. The assault on Melilla was already underway before the Spanish Navy could stop it. There were Spanish Army troops and also men from the Spanish Legion (a few foreign volunteers but mainly Spaniards themselves) present in the exclave. These men fought against a smaller opponent and fought well. They believed they could repulse the invasion. However, in came some more Backfires and their raid on Melilla was highly-destructive. Soviet Naval Infantry and Spanish soldiers fought on afterwards among the ruin which was Melilla, for control of the airport first but then the harbour when the amphibious ships arrived and started landing more men but also heavy equipment including tanks. Further Spanish air strikes from the mainland came and the second Mirage F-1 raid got right through Soviet defences to put bombs into a pair of the Ropucha-class landing ships. Most of the tanks and men were off them already through and it was only stores left. The Spanish had their own tanks in Melilla, a squadron of up-armoured M-48 Pattons that had 105mm guns. These were used well and a major counterattack cleared the airport area from Soviet infiltration to push them back to the beaches in the south of the exclave. The M-48s destroyed any ‘puny’ PT-76 which crossed their path. Fighting inside the town though was more difficult for those tanks, especially as the gunners in them were surrounded by Spanish civilians everywhere. Above them, Soviet armed helicopters joined with missile teams on the ground in tank-hunting. More and more of the Spanish tanks were knocked out. They had lots of infantry and could hold their ground yet the Spanish constantly had their backs to the wall. That wall was the edge of the exclave, Moroccan territory behind them. Soviet warships firing from offshore joined with the helicopters in moving the attacks to groups of armed men and if there were civilians nearby, so be it. Another Ropucha made it to Melilla – a Spanish submarine urgently tasked to find it failed in that mission – and brought in a lot of heavy guns in the form of mobile artillery and mortars. Very quickly, these were put to use in shelling the trapped soldiers on the ground. From Melilla urgent requests were made for air support to help assist the failing defence. That was being send. It was just a case of those on the ground not seeing what was going on out to sea. But when there were no Spanish aircraft in the skies above them this didn’t do morale any good for men who really didn’t want to be fighting among their own civilians either.
After two days, the Soviets had Melilla. It cost them dear but victory it was. They took the airport, what they came here for, as well as the ruin which was so much of the town. Rapid work was made to get the airport’s runways clear of debris and some of the facilities active. This was done and soon enough the message sent out was for aircraft waiting on Malta to be ferried to Melilla so they could soon begin air operations from here. Such an attack to seize Melilla hadn’t been foreseen by the Spanish. They had in fact spent several months worried that neutral Morocco would take the opportunity of a Spain hurting by war to grab the exclave plus the bigger Ceuta too. Attention had been focused inland, not out to sea. Over in Gibraltar, the British had worried about an attempt to take The Rock just like what had happened down in Melilla. They had filled their colonial possession with fighting men ready to oppose a seaborne and/or airmobile assault while also keeping some ‘surprises’ ready too: Exocet missiles fitted to several trailers – the experimental Excalibur system – and two batteries from a TA regiment of Royal Artillery with those men bringing to Gibraltar with them plenty of shoulder-mounted SAMs to deal with helicopters. The Soviet attack on Melilla was feared to be the opening move of a similar, maybe bigger, move to take Gibraltar as well. It wasn’t to be yet the British Government reacted to Melilla’s fall and the continued approach of the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet with grave concern for Gibraltar plus the whole war when it came to the Battle of the Atlantic.
The relatively small British forces in the region – those on the ground in Gibraltar but also over in Madeira in addition to the warships behind the Straits – were urgently reinforced. That decision was made just as the Soviets were doing what they were to the Swedes and came at the worst possible time for Britain… which was the Soviet intention with twin assaults. It had to be done though. Now, after securing an airhead in Melilla, the real battle to open up access to the Atlantic for the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet was coming. Whether the British or anyone else was ready or not, the second stage was to begin.
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 10, 2018 18:57:18 GMT
Another two-parter as my initial plans expanded once I started writing. So, the follow-up tomorrow.
On Soviet warships, with the POD being back in 1977 (when it comes to Soviet changes), there has been moderation to their naval shipbuilding. Not huge changes but some designs scraped, other changes and earlier builds.
I made this list for myself but here it is too.
The Soviet Navy’s major surface combatants
Kiev-class aircraft carrier Kiev
Sunk in the Mediterranean Sea during September 1984.
Kiev-class aircraft carrier Minsk
Damaged in the Pacific late 1984; in port in Magadan.
Kiev-class aircraft carrier Novorossiysk
Active in the Sea of Okhotsk.
Kiev-class aircraft carrier Kuybyshev
New ship, active in the Mediterranean.
Moskva-class helicopter carrier Moskva
Active in the Mediterranean.
Moskva-class helicopter carrier Leningrad
Active in the Mediterranean.
Kirov-class battle-cruiser Kirov
Sunk in the Atlantic during December 1984
Kirov-class battle-cruiser Frunze
Active in the Sea of Okhotsk.
Kirov-class battle-cruiser Krasny Oktyabr
New ship, active in the Mediterranean.
Slava-class missile-cruiser Slava
Damaged in September 1984; active in the Mediterranean.
Slava-class missile-cruiser Lobov
Sunk in the Norwegian Sea in October 1984.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 10, 2018 20:27:59 GMT
I doubt that the answer at the demand to send troops in Europe in case the rest of the EEC enter the fray will be negative; not only the Tatcher and all his goverment will be praise any possible deity for that but there is the need to stop the Soviet to come right in front of Dover and frankly having some base in Western Europe mean that the strategic position of the UK is even more f...ed up; so while showing the diplomatic middle finger can be satisfying for a whole 5 minutes...reality will immediately take control Same for western Europe and Sweden, for how much they don't like Palme and his rethoric, the eventual fall of Sweden and the developing situation in the Med are too much, they basically can spell end at the de-facto independence of that nations; so i doubt that France and co. will be so reactive towards a possible invasion of Sweden and will try to give support at her, maybe the problem is that Bruxelles proposed a membership (even with the 'just for the current crisis' caveat) as a general diplomatic fig leaf to cover her military and diplomatically (and make it easier to sell at Germany) but Palme refused due to the EEC being a little too partial with her neutrality. At least they will try to do some diplomatic wave and give hint to Moscow that's not a good move; sure West Germany will not be thrilled, nevertheless they are gradually being surrounded and doing nothing will simply make the rest of the continent fall to the URSS without a single shot fired and everybody knows it at this stage, plus it's not that Bonn has been the good little boy too scared to do anything, basically all France has done needed German support and while not taking the political lead in this moment will be natural for Germany due to...ehm historical reason and everybody had limits. If the Soviets go west, the British will go back into Western Europe. That was why they spent many months increasing the size but also the capability of a force to stop them. Earlier anger with former allies is still there but that would have to be forgotten because they cannot give the Soviets another front to attack Britain from. So, yes, reality will kick in fast.
Not really, Britain could only commit to such an action when the Soviets were approaching a serious breakthrough. That would still be doing far more than the neutrals did and I can see a lot of Brits arguing that we shouldn't pay more blood and money for those who deserted us. At least unless the bloc is willing to make serious payments in terms of direct aid to reconstruction say. Its the problem when you stab people in the back. They tend to be less than motivated to put out for you when there's no need. The bloc would be paying for their behaviour earlier in the war,
If it looked like the Soviets were making the sort of breakthrough to the Channel and the French weren't going to use nukes its a different matter. However if their stalled somewhere in Germany then there's no reason for Britain to spill more blood for non-allies.
I disagree. I see them going into West Germany, Denmark and the Low Countries - any or all - the moment any attack comes west. The need is there though. The country has been smashed up from the air already and that would only be worse if the Soviets were this side of the Iron Curtain as they would put SRBMs and tactical aircraft to use whereas before it has only bene bombers making long runs. At this point, while not desires, if the West Germans or Danes said no to any British arrival after a Soviet incursion, the only thing to do would be to act regardless.
Damned that's another bloodbath. Looks like the Soviets have lost a lot although their inflicted further allied losses and could make the further defense of Norway impossible, especially given the new air bases the Soviets have as well. Possibly the allies should have responded in kind with nuclear counter-strikes again the Baltic fleet following the Soviet example.
The Soviets have been relatively controlled here, rather than going all out as they have elsewhere. Only taking limited territory to open up the straits.
They used up those shock troops - the last of them - that would have been needed to aid entry into Western Europe proper and they took the loses. So while a victory, it limits further offensive options. There is still a big chunk of Sweden unoccupied between the Soviet area of control and Norway though, yes, the airbases on Swedish soil will be used against Norway. The underwater nuclear blasts are something new and something that can be answered if used again. Grabbing that small bit of territory was all that was needed, for now anyway. Brutal. France won’t stand for European neutrality being so blatantly violated. Sweden must absolutely be the last straw. It will be. This is it, especially in the form it took where there can be no excuse, even a weak one, for the Soviet's action. All that has gone on in Franco-Soviet relations adds into the fallout from this action against the Swedes. We will have to wait and see. Soon, very soon.
They have done for the last 4-5 months. Fortunately it sounds like their finally going to do something which will take the pressure off the allies somewhat.
I'm just figuring out what but it won't be anything minor. It'll be war. Sweden was, and still is, very well set up to defend itself from Soviet/Russian attack from the east across Finland, they learned a lot from the Winter War, however the Soviets have negated that in two ways: Amphibious Assault Stopping The Swedish Centurions, should devastate the PT-76 Tanks the Soviets have brought if they go on the offensive, IF they can keep Soviet airpower at bay. Still, while it's not many men, (maybe a few hundred thousand), every man stationed in Sweden is one that won't be sent to America or China. I wonder if those Soviet troops know how lucky they are? The Soviets looked at an attack through Finland, going through Finland and all that would entail, plus the series of glowing holes in the ground around Leningrad (the rail links for one plus the military bases at the US firing plot there was wide), and also their available light troops and just said to themselves neyt. Both sides are dug-in around a small area of operations. Sweden will have to attack to retake its territory, not doing so is politically impossible especially as Malmo and Helsingborg are on the other side. Soviet air power, plus they've brought in SRBM units too, will cause issues though. The numbers are smaller, maybe 20'000 including support troops. These guys will come home from any war though whereas those sent further afield face an uncertain future. I wonder if the Soviets will attack central Sweden from Norway. Then again, the Baltic Fleet got out anyways. It is doable but hard. 13 ships though, not that many to make it worth it. There are more in the Mediterranean whose presence in the Atlantic would make a real difference.
So you think the British government will read things wrongly and not realise that the bloc's forces can hold the Soviets? Because if so there's little point to risk what's basically Britain's last mobile forces when there's so much need for them elsewhere? Given that people having been saying for the last week or so that British forces aren't needed and the bloc can hold the Soviets way short of the low countries. Plus that such a conflict will take virtually all the pressure off Britain as the Soviets will be so tied up with the bloodbath in Germany. That would enable a much needed chance to regroup and prepare for what could still be a long war rather than constantly dashing from crisis to crisis.
I would argue that the logical and responsible action from the British government would be to take the much needed relief when they can get it and only commit major forces to western Germany when/if needed.
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 11, 2018 19:52:00 GMT
If the Soviets go west, the British will go back into Western Europe. That was why they spent many months increasing the size but also the capability of a force to stop them. Earlier anger with former allies is still there but that would have to be forgotten because they cannot give the Soviets another front to attack Britain from. So, yes, reality will kick in fast. I disagree. I see them going into West Germany, Denmark and the Low Countries - any or all - the moment any attack comes west. The need is there though. The country has been smashed up from the air already and that would only be worse if the Soviets were this side of the Iron Curtain as they would put SRBMs and tactical aircraft to use whereas before it has only bene bombers making long runs. At this point, while not desires, if the West Germans or Danes said no to any British arrival after a Soviet incursion, the only thing to do would be to act regardless. They used up those shock troops - the last of them - that would have been needed to aid entry into Western Europe proper and they took the loses. So while a victory, it limits further offensive options. There is still a big chunk of Sweden unoccupied between the Soviet area of control and Norway though, yes, the airbases on Swedish soil will be used against Norway. The underwater nuclear blasts are something new and something that can be answered if used again. Grabbing that small bit of territory was all that was needed, for now anyway. It will be. This is it, especially in the form it took where there can be no excuse, even a weak one, for the Soviet's action. All that has gone on in Franco-Soviet relations adds into the fallout from this action against the Swedes. Soon, very soon. I'm just figuring out what but it won't be anything minor. It'll be war. The Soviets looked at an attack through Finland, going through Finland and all that would entail, plus the series of glowing holes in the ground around Leningrad (the rail links for one plus the military bases at the US firing plot there was wide), and also their available light troops and just said to themselves neyt. Both sides are dug-in around a small area of operations. Sweden will have to attack to retake its territory, not doing so is politically impossible especially as Malmo and Helsingborg are on the other side. Soviet air power, plus they've brought in SRBM units too, will cause issues though. The numbers are smaller, maybe 20'000 including support troops. These guys will come home from any war though whereas those sent further afield face an uncertain future. It is doable but hard. 13 ships though, not that many to make it worth it. There are more in the Mediterranean whose presence in the Atlantic would make a real difference.
So you think the British government will read things wrongly and not realise that the bloc's forces can hold the Soviets? Because if so there's little point to risk what's basically Britain's last mobile forces when there's so much need for them elsewhere? Given that people having been saying for the last week or so that British forces aren't needed and the bloc can hold the Soviets way short of the low countries. Plus that such a conflict will take virtually all the pressure off Britain as the Soviets will be so tied up with the bloodbath in Germany. That would enable a much needed chance to regroup and prepare for what could still be a long war rather than constantly dashing from crisis to crisis.
I would argue that the logical and responsible action from the British government would be to take the much needed relief when they can get it and only commit major forces to western Germany when/if needed.
Well, as said, I disagree with that view. I'm not seeing things the way you are on this at all. That is on me as the author by failing to explain in the story how the world develops. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 11, 2018 19:53:52 GMT
(284a)January 1985: The Mediterranean It wasn’t just the Soviet Baltic Fleet attempting to break out successfully into the Atlantic that occurred in the New Year. The Black Sea Fleet, now the Mediterranean Fleet, was ordered to smash through Allied defences of the Gibraltar Straits and get out into open water too. Earlier losses in the war, which had come alongside a smashing victory against the US Navy’s Sixth Fleet, had seen Soviet control over the Eastern Med. not extended further. Egyptian intransigence when it came to their growing reluctance to provide unfettered access to the Suez Canal was something soon planned to be dealt with, yet getting into the Atlantic was more important than the Indian Ocean. Mubarak – a difference character indeed from Palme – would have his attitude ‘corrected’ later. For now, it was all about striking west rather than south. American, British, Portuguese and Spanish forces blocking the way were to be fought and overcome. Instructions from Moscow were that now that the Mediterranean Fleet had been reinforced like it had been, the time was now to do this and do it successfully. Soviet warships moved west across the Med. Malta was the forward staging point and one which was under French and Italian surveillance from afar. When the Mediterranean Fleet began to move, Paris and Rome let the Allies know. They already had their own foreknowledge of what was coming yet the backchannel lines of communication were used to send thanks for the heads-up regardless. Spain was more important in this keeping open of dialogue with Western Europe more than Britain and the United States was, something that was only going to be of more importance as the year went onwards. Allied reconnaissance spotted a force of more than four dozen surface vessels (warships and support ships) with indications that there would be at least ten, maybe as many as fifteen, submarines below the waters. The Mediterranean Fleet wasn’t holding anything back! The focus was on the big ships, the major surface combatants in military parlance. There were five Soviet warships which met this definition: one aircraft carrier, two helicopter carriers, one battle-cruiser and one missile-cruiser. The first was the Kuybyshev, a carrier built at the Nikolayev shipyard in the Ukraine. She was first to be called the Baku but had received a name change. Pressures of war had forced her to be delivered into service back in December and she had sailed south to Crete first before then heading to Malta. She had aircraft and helicopters aboard her as well as an impressive missile battery. While the Kuybyshev had been to sea before, this really was her maiden cruise. The two helicopter carriers were the Moskva and the Leningrad. Older and not that effective, their peacetime role was more of propaganda than anything else. They were at war now, serving their country and providing escort for the Mediterranean Fleet against submarine attack and warning of any incoming missile attack. The Kirov-class battle-cruiser heading towards the Gibraltar Straits was the Krasny Oktyabr (translation: Red October). Once planned to be called the Kalinin, this ship had been fitting out in the Black Sea at the beginning of the war and should have gone southwards into the Med. soon afterwards. An accidental missile explosion aboard had done immense damage and saw months of major repairs undertaken first: like the Kuybyshev, the Krasny Oktyabr was on her maiden voyage. Finally, there was the Slava. This warship had been with the carrier Kiev overcoming the US Sixth Fleet before the Spanish had sunk the latter vessel and she herself had been torpedoed by an American submarine. The Slava had been in Crete for emergency repairs before the Greek-Turkish War and then towed all the way to Sevastopol for major work to be undertaken before she could return to sea. Patched-up and with her missile battery reloaded, she was going back to war. The other vessels alongside these were a mix of less-capable cruisers (for anti-submarine work or older vessels from the Strategic Reserve), destroyers, frigates, supply ships and a couple of amphibious ships too. There were aircraft based on the Kuybyshev, jump-jets in the form of Forgers, and these little fighters could also fly from a trio of civilian roll-on/roll-off ships pressed into military service and with the Mediterranean Fleet though were unable to be rearmed or worked upon when aboard them. That wasn’t going to be enough air cover for the mission to open the Gibraltar Straits. Soviet Air Force and Naval Aviation aircraft were flying from Malta and Libya as well but what was really needed was a forward airbase for support of the Mediterranean Fleet. One would have to be taken and that was why there were those amphibious ships carrying half a brigade of Naval Infantry. When the Soviet armada got going, the first air attacks went in. Flying from Libya, Backfires struck at the Balearic Islands. Airports on Majorca and Minorca – built for tourists like those on Tenerife in the Canary Islands attacked last month – were home to Spanish aircraft and were hit with missiles fired from distance. Strikes at even greater distance were then made towards mainland Spain, hitting military air sites along the eastern side of the country to disrupt air operations. Under this cover, the forward flotilla of ships split into two: one group crossing the Western Med. using the shortest route to take them towards the Gibraltar Straits direct and the second closer to Algerian waters. Allied attacks were made. There were submarines active and the Spanish Navy hoped to repeat the success that had had last year in sinking the Kiev then again now. They achieved a kill on a destroyer and crippled another but that submarine involved was then struck itself and sunk. Another Spanish submarine had more patience and waited for bigger prey, one of the big ships. It failed to get an attack in though and was driven off by strong anti-submarine warfare efforts. A withdrawal was made with the intention to return once Allied air power and given the Soviets some pain. That was being prepared but before then, that second smaller group of ships moving west started to receive more attention than the Soviets wanted it to this early. The Spanish looked at where it was going. They were making an approach towards the exclave of Melilla. They were not a series of blockade runners foolishly aiming to crash through the Gibraltar Straits and reach the Azores but going elsewhere. On the other side of the Alboran Sea across from mainland Spain and stretched along the coast of North Africa where it bordered Morocco, Melilla was a sovereign Spanish holding similar to the bigger Ceuta further west. Melilla had an airport too. Spanish Air Force Mirage F-1 fighter-bombers (some of these purchased from an embargoed Iraqi which France had refused to sell to Saddam and had resold to Spain starting in 1982) had their air strike on the bigger flotilla called of and redirected towards the smaller group. They shot southwards through the skies and made attacks on the Soviets. Missiles climbed up to meet them and even a pair of those Forgers flying from a civilian ship: the latter something that came as an unwelcome surprise. SAMs did more damage than any jump-jet could do though and took out several aircraft. The Spanish got their licks in though as they struck several ships on the surface. A naval task force with destroyers and frigates was also on the way and ready to head off a seizure of Melilla too. However, before they could, transport helicopters were flying from Soviet ships and there was already gunfire at Melilla where naval commandos delivered by a submarine were already in action. The assault on Melilla was already underway before the Spanish Navy could stop it. There were Spanish Army troops and also men from the Spanish Legion (a few foreign volunteers but mainly Spaniards themselves) present in the exclave. These men fought against a smaller opponent and fought well. They believed they could repulse the invasion. However, in came some more Backfires and their raid on Melilla was highly-destructive. Soviet Naval Infantry and Spanish soldiers fought on afterwards among the ruin which was Melilla, for control of the airport first but then the harbour when the amphibious ships arrived and started landing more men but also heavy equipment including tanks. Further Spanish air strikes from the mainland came and the second Mirage F-1 raid got right through Soviet defences to put bombs into a pair of the Ropucha-class landing ships. Most of the tanks and men were off them already through and it was only stores left. The Spanish had their own tanks in Melilla, a squadron of up-armoured M-48 Pattons that had 105mm guns. These were used well and a major counterattack cleared the airport area from Soviet infiltration to push them back to the beaches in the south of the exclave. The M-48s destroyed any ‘puny’ PT-76 which crossed their path. Fighting inside the town though was more difficult for those tanks, especially as the gunners in them were surrounded by Spanish civilians everywhere. Above them, Soviet armed helicopters joined with missile teams on the ground in tank-hunting. More and more of the Spanish tanks were knocked out. They had lots of infantry and could hold their ground yet the Spanish constantly had their backs to the wall. That wall was the edge of the exclave, Moroccan territory behind them. Soviet warships firing from offshore joined with the helicopters in moving the attacks to groups of armed men and if there were civilians nearby, so be it. Another Ropucha made it to Melilla – a Spanish submarine urgently tasked to find it failed in that mission – and brought in a lot of heavy guns in the form of mobile artillery and mortars. Very quickly, these were put to use in shelling the trapped soldiers on the ground. From Melilla urgent requests were made for air support to help assist the failing defence. That was being send. It was just a case of those on the ground not seeing what was going on out to sea. But when there were no Spanish aircraft in the skies above them this didn’t do morale any good for men who really didn’t want to be fighting among their own civilians either. After two days, the Soviets had Melilla. It cost them dear but victory it was. They took the airport, what they came here for, as well as the ruin which was so much of the town. Rapid work was made to get the airport’s runways clear of debris and some of the facilities active. This was done and soon enough the message sent out was for aircraft waiting on Malta to be ferried to Melilla so they could soon begin air operations from here. Such an attack to seize Melilla hadn’t been foreseen by the Spanish. They had in fact spent several months worried that neutral Morocco would take the opportunity of a Spain hurting by war to grab the exclave plus the bigger Ceuta too. Attention had been focused inland, not out to sea. Over in Gibraltar, the British had worried about an attempt to take The Rock just like what had happened down in Melilla. They had filled their colonial possession with fighting men ready to oppose a seaborne and/or airmobile assault while also keeping some ‘surprises’ ready too: Exocet missiles fitted to several trailers – the experimental Excalibur system – and two batteries from a TA regiment of Royal Artillery with those men bringing to Gibraltar with them plenty of shoulder-mounted SAMs to deal with helicopters. The Soviet attack on Melilla was feared to be the opening move of a similar, maybe bigger, move to take Gibraltar as well. It wasn’t to be yet the British Government reacted to Melilla’s fall and the continued approach of the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet with grave concern for Gibraltar plus the whole war when it came to the Battle of the Atlantic. The relatively small British forces in the region – those on the ground in Gibraltar but also over in Madeira in addition to the warships behind the Straits – were urgently reinforced. That decision was made just as the Soviets were doing what they were to the Swedes and came at the worst possible time for Britain… which was the Soviet intention with twin assaults. It had to be done though. Now, after securing an airhead in Melilla, the real battle to open up access to the Atlantic for the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet was coming. Whether the British or anyone else was ready or not, the second stage was to begin. Good update James, so will we see Morocco as a new allied member. |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Nov 11, 2018 19:58:41 GMT
(284b)
January 1985: The Mediterranean
There had been bureaucratic objections yet the opening of the Gibraltar Straits, Operation Orel (translation: Eagle), was to be led by the Soviet Navy. The Soviet Air Force committed significant forces to Orel yet they all answered both operationally and tactically to the wishes of the Navy. The Air Force didn’t like this, holding in contempt their comrades in the Navy, but the orders stood. Once the airhead at Melilla was open, aircraft would begin flying from there. The air unit assigned was a detached squadron from a Guards regiment belonging to the Air Force but the Navy had them doing what they wanted done in support of the Mediterranean Fleet and doing it straight away. Once there were half a dozen fighters there inside the secured Spanish exclave, long before any serious strength could be built-up, the MiG-27 Floggers were flying combat missions. The Floggers were out over the Alboran Sea and making attacks on surface targets, any Allied ships encountered, while also meant to shoot down Allied fighters too. They were rather outnumbered. The Spanish filled the skies with Mirages and got one of the Floggers on the first day and two more the next. With no losses of their own, the Spanish Air Force wiped out half of the Soviet land-based air cover. More aircraft were dispatched to Melilla with the rest of that lead squadron flying from Malta and aiming to get another nine Floggers across on long overwater ferry flights where the MiG-27s used external fuel tanks like the ones before them had. Cruise missiles fired from a quartet of Backfires shot towards mainland Spanish airbases at the same time after the Navy had been made to understand by the Air Force that this had to be done to keep the Spanish off guard if the Navy wanted air cover for their ships. The Spanish did get their fighters up to try to engage those cruise missiles rather than flood the Alboran Sea with Mirages again, yet they also still had a fighter patrol to the south as well already ongoing at the time. Two Mirage-IIIs, high-speed interceptors, came across the middle trio of Floggers inbound for Melilla. Laden with those fuel tanks, the Soviet aircraft were in trouble. They each mounted a pair of air-to-air missiles for self-defence but to use them effectively when out over the water far from Melilla would mean conducting a release of those tanks… and thus the pilots would end up going for a swim. The flight leader took too long to decide what to do and in the meantime the Spanish fired. Short of fuel themselves after a long patrol, the Mirage pilots fired off two missiles each and turned north without pressing home their attack. Two of the Floggers went down leaving the last one all alone to fly onwards to Melilla. The pilot had been left impotent to stop his two comrades from dying and, like his superiors, raged against the Navy for putting him in this situation. There were now ten MiG-27s operating from Melilla when plans had been for fifteen. Ten or even fifteen didn’t compare favourably in any way to the far larger numbers of Allied aircraft across in Spain though, not by a long stretch.
The Spanish held the command role over Allied operations in the Gibraltar Straits as part of a larger position through the Western Med. before the Soviets moved their fleet across the sea towards the Atlantic. Smaller forces of their allies – Britain, Portugal and the United States – answered to their established headquarters though there was a lot of joint effort in this rather than the Spanish telling everyone what to do. Never a part of NATO, the Spanish still worked well with new allies. American contribution came from a trio of submarines (quite a force despite the low number) and a part squadron of P-3 Orions flying from Rota; the Portuguese had a variety of small warships assigned. It was the British who made the significant non-Spanish contribution to the Allied force. They had troops in Gibraltar and Madeira who were joined by extra reinforcements of Royal Marines flown in mid-January to form a provisional force deemed the 2nd Commando Brigade. With their troops, any land incursion on the Iberian Peninsula similar to what occurred at Melilla would be repulsed. There were already Jaguars and Nimrods at Gibraltar and they were now joined by Tornados outfitted for the naval strike role – with anti-ship missiles – who flew to Moron Airbase; these would have been mightily-useful staying back in Britain with another identical-tasked squadron which had to on their own face the Soviet Baltic Fleet. At sea, the Royal Navy had a task group of warships west of Gibraltar. With more time, it could have been heavily reinforced – the newly-finished carrier HMS Ark Royal was at Portsmouth getting finishing touches for wartime early service – but the time was short and so instead only an extra submarine could reach the area instead. The Spanish had the majority of the assigned forces. They had troops all along their mainland coastline and reinforced the already large garrison across at Ceuta with a battalion of paratroopers, a battery of heavy guns and missile teams for both air defence & anti-tank roles. Aircraft weren’t flying from that exclave as there wasn’t an airport or airbase there and the Spanish had to stretch their defences from the Balearic Islands to Gibraltar but there were still plenty of Mirages (both the F-1 attack-fighters and -III interceptors), American-supplied F-4s and Spanish-built F-5s in service. The naval forces of Spain in-place to block Soviet access to the Atlantic were impressive in number. They had an aircraft carrier, SPS Dedalo, once the USS Cabot which had served in the Second World War and now flew Harriers. While old, she was capable of supporting the air operations of those jump-jets and that was what mattered. Destroyers, frigates, patrol boats and submarines aplenty were all in the area, many of those which had seen action late last year off the Canary Islands. The Spanish Navy also had Z.14 HueyCobra helicopter gunships tasked to support their lighter warships and to deal with enemy naval helicopters too who wouldn’t be as well armed.
Once there were Soviet fighter-bombers flying from Melilla, the Mediterranean Feet moved forwards. They’d been generally stationary – as a formation, not individually for the ships moved about – while waiting and been positioned far southeast of Majorca, northeast of Algiers. Being out in open water there put them at the edge of fighter cover from Malta but beyond the reasonable grasp of air attacks coming out of mainland Spain. January 20th saw the Soviets move west once again.
The Alboran Sea was where the Soviets and the Allies clashed, the eastern side of the Gibraltar Straits. Air power opened the action followed by submarines joining in and only afterwards came the limited participation of naval surface forces despite each side having many of those available for combat. The victors wouldn’t be the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet.
Focusing on the big ships, those five major surface combatants, the Allies got four of them. The carrier Kuybyshev never got to use her Forgers effectively nor even bring to bear her arsenal of long-range anti-ship missiles either. A US Navy submarine crippled her with torpedo hits which allowed Allied air power to strike against a sitting duck. That air power was those RAF Tornados who came in low, oh so very low, and smashed Sea Eagle sea-skimming missiles into the Kuybyshev. These missiles were still new in service with the RAF only having made a few firings off Norway last year with Buccaneers doing that. Here in the Med., the Sea Eagle used by Tornados showed its worth. The many hits set the Soviet carrier alight and eliminated damage control efforts to save her after the American torpedo strike. The fires would eventually be put out by onrushing sea water when she sunk. It cost the RAF five Tornados in total – three lost to a huge SAM barrage and two more to close-in rapid-fire anti-aircraft guns – but this was deemed worth it to destroy such a ship whose presence in the Atlantic couldn’t be tolerated.
Another one of those American submarines sunk the helicopter carrier Leningrad. This was the USS Dallas again, the same vessel so active early in the war’s first naval battles in the Eastern Med. which had all that success then but had been unable to stop air attacks destroying most of the Sixth Fleet. Torpedo hits from her sunk the Leningrad. A return to Rota while flying a Jolly Roger would come for the Dallas, before in later weeks from New York the actions of her and her crew would be celebrated by American propaganda. Twice now the Americans had destroyed Leningrad: the city and the ship named after it.
The Moskva was a much harder kill. Mirage F-1s went after that sistership to the Leningrad, fighting through SAMs which took down several on the way in and on the way out too. A pair of the fighter-bombers got through them and the intensive anti-aircraft fire from radar-directed guns to run a string of bombs perfectly down the full length of the ship. Some exploded on impact; more went in through her foredeck bristling with weapons, her superstructure amidships and the rear flight-deck before detonating. The damage done was excellent but wouldn’t kill her. The Spanish had to have another go and that they did. Their F-4s in service were usually tasked for fighter duties but retained attack capabilities. Again when coming at the Moskva, several aircraft were lost but others got through and the F-4s dropped more bombs on the ship. Earlier fires got out of control after the second attack and the helicopter carrier would burn furiously until she was eventually abandoned and left to the seas to take her.
Both the Krasny Oktyabr and the Slava unleashed their barrages of missiles. Shipwrecks and Sandboxs flew against Allied naval forces with lethal results. The battlecruiser and the missile-cruiser afterwards were struck at with attacks that the Allies had hoped to get in first but had to settle for doing afterwards. A Royal Navy submarine failed to get the Slava and was sunk itself; the Krasny Oktyabr fell afoul of the Royal Navy though when it tried to run through the straits. The barrage of missiles had sunk or damaged all of those Allied surface ships and the way ahead was thought clear. From out of Gibraltar came missiles though. These were Exocets based around the Excalibur system which had the whole Gibraltar Straits in range. Two perfect hits were recorded. Burning but still capable of fighting, the Krasny Oktyabr turned towards Gibraltar. The ship had other weapons and the Excalibur battery was being reloaded. From the Kirov-class warship which could be best described as a behemoth, the guns on the ship opened fire as if she was a battleship of old. These were rather accurate: the Soviets gunners only had one twin-barrelled 130mm gun but it was put to good use. RAF and also Spanish aircraft were on their way to intervene and the Excalibur battery (a trailer system which had switched positions) was also finally reloaded. Before any of that could be used, the Krasny Oktyabr was struck by more Exocets. The frigate HMS Boxer fired them from over on the western side of the straits, her targeting aided by one of her helicopters flying dangerously close to the Soviet battle-cruiser but aided by the smoke pouring out of her. One, two, three, four – the Boxer got excellent hits in. Each Exocet, these particular missiles part of a recent French delivery to Britain, neutrality be damned, hit low along the port side just above the waterline. One failed to explode but the other three did. The gunfire from the Krasny Oktyabr ceased. Gibraltar had been hit hard by the accurate shelling though the shock value of that would far outweigh what little real destruction was done. Still afloat though fatally wounded, the Allies weren’t about to leave the Soviet ship alone. It was hit by more Exocets out of Gibraltar and then in came aircraft on attack runs: first Spanish jets then the RAF. Still, after all of this, it remained afloat and refused to die. Royal Marines on The Rock wanted to go out in assault boats and ‘take’ the ship: it was a dozen miles offshore and what a prize it would be. That was a flight of fancy. Imagine the casualties from undertaking a mission like that on the fly… The Royal Navy would have the kill instead. Boxer’s Lynx put two Sea Skua missiles into her before the submarine HMS Conqueror used torpedo after torpedo to put holes in the battle-cruiser. Finally, the Krasny Oktyabr tipped over and sunk. There’d be celebrations, many of them, yet a nuclear disaster of immense magnitude was to occur when her reactor blew up. The environmental clean-up would have ecological and political consequences for many years to come.
These sinkings (apart from the Slava which got away) came at a price though. While hitting the big ships and also sinking many others – three smaller cruisers, seven destroyers and two frigates plus six support ships – the Allies lost aircraft, submarines and also surface ships of their own. There were many missile firings by the Mediterranean Fleet before it was overcome and Soviet naval air power smashed up the Allied navies. This came from distance though, aircraft flying from Malta, because the last of those aircraft in Melilla remained outnumbered and could do very little when the big fight came. Eight of the Allies own major warships would be lost (add the Royal Navy’s losses here to those suffered in the Battle of the Baltic Exits and the losses combined would bring tears to the eye) and another dozen damaged. Unlike the Soviets, wounded Allied ships could retreat to a friendly port and that did help somewhat with saving ships and lives. Nonetheless, the losses were horrendous in terms of ships and sailors.
When the Slava ran back east, along with other ships, this meant that the Mediterranean Fleet hadn’t been finished off. Giving chase though was impossible. The Allied navies couldn’t do it. The Dedalo had been one of those Allied casualties, hit with a wave of missiles from the Krasny Oktyabr (she didn’t sink yet after putting into Rota, she’d never sail again), and that meant that there was no aircraft carrier available. Over in the central parts of the Med., the French and the Italians had their huge gathering of naval power and the airbases on land too. If anyone was going to finish off the Soviet’s Atlantic ambitions finally, put the last of their ships on the bottom of the sea, it would be them. Geo-political events after the attack on Sweden looked likely that that was going to happen too.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 11, 2018 20:09:30 GMT
(284b)January 1985: The Mediterranean There had been bureaucratic objections yet the opening of the Gibraltar Straits, Operation Orel (translation: Eagle), was to be led by the Soviet Navy. The Soviet Air Force committed significant forces to Orel yet they all answered both operationally and tactically to the wishes of the Navy. The Air Force didn’t like this, holding in contempt their comrades in the Navy, but the orders stood. Once the airhead at Melilla was open, aircraft would begin flying from there. The air unit assigned was a detached squadron from a Guards regiment belonging to the Air Force but the Navy had them doing what they wanted done in support of the Mediterranean Fleet and doing it straight away. Once there were half a dozen fighters there inside the secured Spanish exclave, long before any serious strength could be built-up, the MiG-27 Floggers were flying combat missions. The Floggers were out over the Alboran Sea and making attacks on surface targets, any Allied ships encountered, while also meant to shoot down Allied fighters too. They were rather outnumbered. The Spanish filled the skies with Mirages and got one of the Floggers on the first day and two more the next. With no losses of their own, the Spanish Air Force wiped out half of the Soviet land-based air cover. More aircraft were dispatched to Melilla with the rest of that lead squadron flying from Malta and aiming to get another nine Floggers across on long overwater ferry flights where the MiG-27s used external fuel tanks like the ones before them had. Cruise missiles fired from a quartet of Backfires shot towards mainland Spanish airbases at the same time after the Navy had been made to understand by the Air Force that this had to be done to keep the Spanish off guard if the Navy wanted air cover for their ships. The Spanish did get their fighters up to try to engage those cruise missiles rather than flood the Alboran Sea with Mirages again, yet they also still had a fighter patrol to the south as well already ongoing at the time. Two Mirage-IIIs, high-speed interceptors, came across the middle trio of Floggers inbound for Melilla. Laden with those fuel tanks, the Soviet aircraft were in trouble. They each mounted a pair of air-to-air missiles for self-defence but to use them effectively when out over the water far from Melilla would mean conducting a release of those tanks… and thus the pilots would end up going for a swim. The flight leader took too long to decide what to do and in the meantime the Spanish fired. Short of fuel themselves after a long patrol, the Mirage pilots fired off two missiles each and turned north without pressing home their attack. Two of the Floggers went down leaving the last one all alone to fly onwards to Melilla. The pilot had been left impotent to stop his two comrades from dying and, like his superiors, raged against the Navy for putting him in this situation. There were now ten MiG-27s operating from Melilla when plans had been for fifteen. Ten or even fifteen didn’t compare favourably in any way to the far larger numbers of Allied aircraft across in Spain though, not by a long stretch. The Spanish held the command role over Allied operations in the Gibraltar Straits as part of a larger position through the Western Med. before the Soviets moved their fleet across the sea towards the Atlantic. Smaller forces of their allies – Britain, Portugal and the United States – answered to their established headquarters though there was a lot of joint effort in this rather than the Spanish telling everyone what to do. Never a part of NATO, the Spanish still worked well with new allies. American contribution came from a trio of submarines (quite a force despite the low number) and a part squadron of P-3 Orions flying from Rota; the Portuguese had a variety of small warships assigned. It was the British who made the significant non-Spanish contribution to the Allied force. They had troops in Gibraltar and Madeira who were joined by extra reinforcements of Royal Marines flown in mid-January to form a provisional force deemed the 2nd Commando Brigade. With their troops, any land incursion on the Iberian Peninsula similar to what occurred at Melilla would be repulsed. There were already Jaguars and Nimrods at Gibraltar and they were now joined by Tornados outfitted for the naval strike role – with anti-ship missiles – who flew to Moron Airbase; these would have been mightily-useful staying back in Britain with another identical-tasked squadron which had to on their own face the Soviet Baltic Fleet. At sea, the Royal Navy had a task group of warships west of Gibraltar. With more time, it could have been heavily reinforced – the newly-finished carrier HMS Ark Royal was at Portsmouth getting finishing touches for wartime early service – but the time was short and so instead only an extra submarine could reach the area instead. The Spanish had the majority of the assigned forces. They had troops all along their mainland coastline and reinforced the already large garrison across at Ceuta with a battalion of paratroopers, a battery of heavy guns and missile teams for both air defence & anti-tank roles. Aircraft weren’t flying from that exclave as there wasn’t an airport or airbase there and the Spanish had to stretch their defences from the Balearic Islands to Gibraltar but there were still plenty of Mirages (both the F-1 attack-fighters and -III interceptors), American-supplied F-4s and Spanish-built F-5s in service. The naval forces of Spain in-place to block Soviet access to the Atlantic were impressive in number. They had an aircraft carrier, SPS Dedalo, once the USS Cabot which had served in the Second World War and now flew Harriers. While old, she was capable of supporting the air operations of those jump-jets and that was what mattered. Destroyers, frigates, patrol boats and submarines aplenty were all in the area, many of those which had seen action late last year off the Canary Islands. The Spanish Navy also had Z.14 HueyCobra helicopter gunships tasked to support their lighter warships and to deal with enemy naval helicopters too who wouldn’t be as well armed. Once there were Soviet fighter-bombers flying from Melilla, the Mediterranean Feet moved forwards. They’d been generally stationary – as a formation, not individually for the ships moved about – while waiting and been positioned far southeast of Majorca, northeast of Algiers. Being out in open water there put them at the edge of fighter cover from Malta but beyond the reasonable grasp of air attacks coming out of mainland Spain. January 20th saw the Soviets move west once again. The Alboran Sea was where the Soviets and the Allies clashed, the eastern side of the Gibraltar Straits. Air power opened the action followed by submarines joining in and only afterwards came the limited participation of naval surface forces despite each side having many of those available for combat. The victors wouldn’t be the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet. Focusing on the big ships, those five major surface combatants, the Allies got four of them. The carrier Kuybyshev never got to use her Forgers effectively nor even bring to bear her arsenal of long-range anti-ship missiles either. A US Navy submarine crippled her with torpedo hits which allowed Allied air power to strike against a sitting duck. That air power was those RAF Tornados who came in low, oh so very low, and smashed Sea Eagle sea-skimming missiles into the Kuybyshev. These missiles were still new in service with the RAF only having made a few firings off Norway last year with Buccaneers doing that. Here in the Med., the Sea Eagle used by Tornados showed its worth. The many hits set the Soviet carrier alight and eliminated damage control efforts to save her after the American torpedo strike. The fires would eventually be put out by onrushing sea water when she sunk. It cost the RAF five Tornados in total – three lost to a huge SAM barrage and two more to close-in rapid-fire anti-aircraft guns – but this was deemed worth it to destroy such a ship whose presence in the Atlantic couldn’t be tolerated. Another one of those American submarines sunk the helicopter carrier Leningrad. This was the USS Dallas again, the same vessel so active early in the war’s first naval battles in the Eastern Med. which had all that success then but had been unable to stop air attacks destroying most of the Sixth Fleet. Torpedo hits from her sunk the Leningrad. A return to Rota while flying a Jolly Roger would come for the Dallas, before in later weeks from New York the actions of her and her crew would be celebrated by American propaganda. Twice now the Americans had destroyed Leningrad: the city and the ship named after it. The Moskva was a much harder kill. Mirage F-1s went after that sistership to the Leningrad, fighting through SAMs which took down several on the way in and on the way out too. A pair of the fighter-bombers got through them and the intensive anti-aircraft fire from radar-directed guns to run a string of bombs perfectly down the full length of the ship. Some exploded on impact; more went in through her foredeck bristling with weapons, her superstructure amidships and the rear flight-deck before detonating. The damage done was excellent but wouldn’t kill her. The Spanish had to have another go and that they did. Their F-4s in service were usually tasked for fighter duties but retained attack capabilities. Again when coming at the Moskva, several aircraft were lost but others got through and the F-4s dropped more bombs on the ship. Earlier fires got out of control after the second attack and the helicopter carrier would burn furiously until she was eventually abandoned and left to the seas to take her. Both the Krasny Oktyabr and the Slava unleashed their barrages of missiles. Shipwrecks and Sandboxs flew against Allied naval forces with lethal results. The battlecruiser and the missile-cruiser afterwards were struck at with attacks that the Allies had hoped to get in first but had to settle for doing afterwards. A Royal Navy submarine failed to get the Slava and was sunk itself; the Krasny Oktyabr fell afoul of the Royal Navy though when it tried to run through the straits. The barrage of missiles had sunk or damaged all of those Allied surface ships and the way ahead was thought clear. From out of Gibraltar came missiles though. These were Exocets based around the Excalibur system which had the whole Gibraltar Straits in range. Two perfect hits were recorded. Burning but still capable of fighting, the Krasny Oktyabr turned towards Gibraltar. The ship had other weapons and the Excalibur battery was being reloaded. From the Kirov-class warship which could be best described as a behemoth, the guns on the ship opened fire as if she was a battleship of old. These were rather accurate: the Soviets gunners only had one twin-barrelled 130mm gun but it was put to good use. RAF and also Spanish aircraft were on their way to intervene and the Excalibur battery (a trailer system which had switched positions) was also finally reloaded. Before any of that could be used, the Krasny Oktyabr was struck by more Exocets. The frigate HMS Boxer fired them from over on the western side of the straits, her targeting aided by one of her helicopters flying dangerously close to the Soviet battle-cruiser but aided by the smoke pouring out of her. One, two, three, four – the Boxer got excellent hits in. Each Exocet, these particular missiles part of a recent French delivery to Britain, neutrality be damned, hit low along the port side just above the waterline. One failed to explode but the other three did. The gunfire from the Krasny Oktyabr ceased. Gibraltar had been hit hard by the accurate shelling though the shock value of that would far outweigh what little real destruction was done. Still afloat though fatally wounded, the Allies weren’t about to leave the Soviet ship alone. It was hit by more Exocets out of Gibraltar and then in came aircraft on attack runs: first Spanish jets then the RAF. Still, after all of this, it remained afloat and refused to die. Royal Marines on The Rock wanted to go out in assault boats and ‘take’ the ship: it was a dozen miles offshore and what a prize it would be. That was a flight of fancy. Imagine the casualties from undertaking a mission like that on the fly… The Royal Navy would have the kill instead. Boxer’s Lynx put two Sea Skua missiles into her before the submarine HMS Conqueror used torpedo after torpedo to put holes in the battle-cruiser. Finally, the Krasny Oktyabr tipped over and sunk. There’d be celebrations, many of them, yet a nuclear disaster of immense magnitude was to occur when her reactor blew up. The environmental clean-up would have ecological and political consequences for many years to come. These sinkings (apart from the Slava which got away) came at a price though. While hitting the big ships and also sinking many others – three smaller cruisers, seven destroyers and two frigates plus six support ships – the Allies lost aircraft, submarines and also surface ships of their own. There were many missile firings by the Mediterranean Fleet before it was overcome and Soviet naval air power smashed up the Allied navies. This came from distance though, aircraft flying from Malta, because the last of those aircraft in Melilla remained outnumbered and could do very little when the big fight came. Eight of the Allies own major warships would be lost (add the Royal Navy’s losses here to those suffered in the Battle of the Baltic Exits and the losses combined would bring tears to the eye) and another dozen damaged. Unlike the Soviets, wounded Allied ships could retreat to a friendly port and that did help somewhat with saving ships and lives. Nonetheless, the losses were horrendous in terms of ships and sailors. When the Slava ran back east, along with other ships, this meant that the Mediterranean Fleet hadn’t been finished off. Giving chase though was impossible. The Allied navies couldn’t do it. The Dedalo had been one of those Allied casualties, hit with a wave of missiles from the Krasny Oktyabr (she didn’t sink yet after putting into Rota, she’d never sail again), and that meant that there was no aircraft carrier available. Over in the central parts of the Med., the French and the Italians had their huge gathering of naval power and the airbases on land too. If anyone was going to finish off the Soviet’s Atlantic ambitions finally, put the last of their ships on the bottom of the sea, it would be them. Geo-political events after the attack on Sweden looked likely that that was going to happen too. Great update as always James. Does Spain operate two carriers, this one the Príncipe de Asturias which in OTL only was commissioned in 1988 but with war i would assume she might have entered here in 1984 already.  And the Dédalo |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Nov 11, 2018 20:20:20 GMT
(284b)January 1985: The Mediterranean There had been bureaucratic objections yet the opening of the Gibraltar Straits, Operation Orel (translation: Eagle), was to be led by the Soviet Navy. The Soviet Air Force committed significant forces to Orel yet they all answered both operationally and tactically to the wishes of the Navy. The Air Force didn’t like this, holding in contempt their comrades in the Navy, but the orders stood. Once the airhead at Melilla was open, aircraft would begin flying from there. The air unit assigned was a detached squadron from a Guards regiment belonging to the Air Force but the Navy had them doing what they wanted done in support of the Mediterranean Fleet and doing it straight away. Once there were half a dozen fighters there inside the secured Spanish exclave, long before any serious strength could be built-up, the MiG-27 Floggers were flying combat missions. The Floggers were out over the Alboran Sea and making attacks on surface targets, any Allied ships encountered, while also meant to shoot down Allied fighters too. They were rather outnumbered. The Spanish filled the skies with Mirages and got one of the Floggers on the first day and two more the next. With no losses of their own, the Spanish Air Force wiped out half of the Soviet land-based air cover. More aircraft were dispatched to Melilla with the rest of that lead squadron flying from Malta and aiming to get another nine Floggers across on long overwater ferry flights where the MiG-27s used external fuel tanks like the ones before them had. Cruise missiles fired from a quartet of Backfires shot towards mainland Spanish airbases at the same time after the Navy had been made to understand by the Air Force that this had to be done to keep the Spanish off guard if the Navy wanted air cover for their ships. The Spanish did get their fighters up to try to engage those cruise missiles rather than flood the Alboran Sea with Mirages again, yet they also still had a fighter patrol to the south as well already ongoing at the time. Two Mirage-IIIs, high-speed interceptors, came across the middle trio of Floggers inbound for Melilla. Laden with those fuel tanks, the Soviet aircraft were in trouble. They each mounted a pair of air-to-air missiles for self-defence but to use them effectively when out over the water far from Melilla would mean conducting a release of those tanks… and thus the pilots would end up going for a swim. The flight leader took too long to decide what to do and in the meantime the Spanish fired. Short of fuel themselves after a long patrol, the Mirage pilots fired off two missiles each and turned north without pressing home their attack. Two of the Floggers went down leaving the last one all alone to fly onwards to Melilla. The pilot had been left impotent to stop his two comrades from dying and, like his superiors, raged against the Navy for putting him in this situation. There were now ten MiG-27s operating from Melilla when plans had been for fifteen. Ten or even fifteen didn’t compare favourably in any way to the far larger numbers of Allied aircraft across in Spain though, not by a long stretch. The Spanish held the command role over Allied operations in the Gibraltar Straits as part of a larger position through the Western Med. before the Soviets moved their fleet across the sea towards the Atlantic. Smaller forces of their allies – Britain, Portugal and the United States – answered to their established headquarters though there was a lot of joint effort in this rather than the Spanish telling everyone what to do. Never a part of NATO, the Spanish still worked well with new allies. American contribution came from a trio of submarines (quite a force despite the low number) and a part squadron of P-3 Orions flying from Rota; the Portuguese had a variety of small warships assigned. It was the British who made the significant non-Spanish contribution to the Allied force. They had troops in Gibraltar and Madeira who were joined by extra reinforcements of Royal Marines flown in mid-January to form a provisional force deemed the 2nd Commando Brigade. With their troops, any land incursion on the Iberian Peninsula similar to what occurred at Melilla would be repulsed. There were already Jaguars and Nimrods at Gibraltar and they were now joined by Tornados outfitted for the naval strike role – with anti-ship missiles – who flew to Moron Airbase; these would have been mightily-useful staying back in Britain with another identical-tasked squadron which had to on their own face the Soviet Baltic Fleet. At sea, the Royal Navy had a task group of warships west of Gibraltar. With more time, it could have been heavily reinforced – the newly-finished carrier HMS Ark Royal was at Portsmouth getting finishing touches for wartime early service – but the time was short and so instead only an extra submarine could reach the area instead. The Spanish had the majority of the assigned forces. They had troops all along their mainland coastline and reinforced the already large garrison across at Ceuta with a battalion of paratroopers, a battery of heavy guns and missile teams for both air defence & anti-tank roles. Aircraft weren’t flying from that exclave as there wasn’t an airport or airbase there and the Spanish had to stretch their defences from the Balearic Islands to Gibraltar but there were still plenty of Mirages (both the F-1 attack-fighters and -III interceptors), American-supplied F-4s and Spanish-built F-5s in service. The naval forces of Spain in-place to block Soviet access to the Atlantic were impressive in number. They had an aircraft carrier, SPS Dedalo, once the USS Cabot which had served in the Second World War and now flew Harriers. While old, she was capable of supporting the air operations of those jump-jets and that was what mattered. Destroyers, frigates, patrol boats and submarines aplenty were all in the area, many of those which had seen action late last year off the Canary Islands. The Spanish Navy also had Z.14 HueyCobra helicopter gunships tasked to support their lighter warships and to deal with enemy naval helicopters too who wouldn’t be as well armed. Once there were Soviet fighter-bombers flying from Melilla, the Mediterranean Feet moved forwards. They’d been generally stationary – as a formation, not individually for the ships moved about – while waiting and been positioned far southeast of Majorca, northeast of Algiers. Being out in open water there put them at the edge of fighter cover from Malta but beyond the reasonable grasp of air attacks coming out of mainland Spain. January 20th saw the Soviets move west once again. The Alboran Sea was where the Soviets and the Allies clashed, the eastern side of the Gibraltar Straits. Air power opened the action followed by submarines joining in and only afterwards came the limited participation of naval surface forces despite each side having many of those available for combat. The victors wouldn’t be the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet. Focusing on the big ships, those five major surface combatants, the Allies got four of them. The carrier Kuybyshev never got to use her Forgers effectively nor even bring to bear her arsenal of long-range anti-ship missiles either. A US Navy submarine crippled her with torpedo hits which allowed Allied air power to strike against a sitting duck. That air power was those RAF Tornados who came in low, oh so very low, and smashed Sea Eagle sea-skimming missiles into the Kuybyshev. These missiles were still new in service with the RAF only having made a few firings off Norway last year with Buccaneers doing that. Here in the Med., the Sea Eagle used by Tornados showed its worth. The many hits set the Soviet carrier alight and eliminated damage control efforts to save her after the American torpedo strike. The fires would eventually be put out by onrushing sea water when she sunk. It cost the RAF five Tornados in total – three lost to a huge SAM barrage and two more to close-in rapid-fire anti-aircraft guns – but this was deemed worth it to destroy such a ship whose presence in the Atlantic couldn’t be tolerated. Another one of those American submarines sunk the helicopter carrier Leningrad. This was the USS Dallas again, the same vessel so active early in the war’s first naval battles in the Eastern Med. which had all that success then but had been unable to stop air attacks destroying most of the Sixth Fleet. Torpedo hits from her sunk the Leningrad. A return to Rota while flying a Jolly Roger would come for the Dallas, before in later weeks from New York the actions of her and her crew would be celebrated by American propaganda. Twice now the Americans had destroyed Leningrad: the city and the ship named after it. The Moskva was a much harder kill. Mirage F-1s went after that sistership to the Leningrad, fighting through SAMs which took down several on the way in and on the way out too. A pair of the fighter-bombers got through them and the intensive anti-aircraft fire from radar-directed guns to run a string of bombs perfectly down the full length of the ship. Some exploded on impact; more went in through her foredeck bristling with weapons, her superstructure amidships and the rear flight-deck before detonating. The damage done was excellent but wouldn’t kill her. The Spanish had to have another go and that they did. Their F-4s in service were usually tasked for fighter duties but retained attack capabilities. Again when coming at the Moskva, several aircraft were lost but others got through and the F-4s dropped more bombs on the ship. Earlier fires got out of control after the second attack and the helicopter carrier would burn furiously until she was eventually abandoned and left to the seas to take her. Both the Krasny Oktyabr and the Slava unleashed their barrages of missiles. Shipwrecks and Sandboxs flew against Allied naval forces with lethal results. The battlecruiser and the missile-cruiser afterwards were struck at with attacks that the Allies had hoped to get in first but had to settle for doing afterwards. A Royal Navy submarine failed to get the Slava and was sunk itself; the Krasny Oktyabr fell afoul of the Royal Navy though when it tried to run through the straits. The barrage of missiles had sunk or damaged all of those Allied surface ships and the way ahead was thought clear. From out of Gibraltar came missiles though. These were Exocets based around the Excalibur system which had the whole Gibraltar Straits in range. Two perfect hits were recorded. Burning but still capable of fighting, the Krasny Oktyabr turned towards Gibraltar. The ship had other weapons and the Excalibur battery was being reloaded. From the Kirov-class warship which could be best described as a behemoth, the guns on the ship opened fire as if she was a battleship of old. These were rather accurate: the Soviets gunners only had one twin-barrelled 130mm gun but it was put to good use. RAF and also Spanish aircraft were on their way to intervene and the Excalibur battery (a trailer system which had switched positions) was also finally reloaded. Before any of that could be used, the Krasny Oktyabr was struck by more Exocets. The frigate HMS Boxer fired them from over on the western side of the straits, her targeting aided by one of her helicopters flying dangerously close to the Soviet battle-cruiser but aided by the smoke pouring out of her. One, two, three, four – the Boxer got excellent hits in. Each Exocet, these particular missiles part of a recent French delivery to Britain, neutrality be damned, hit low along the port side just above the waterline. One failed to explode but the other three did. The gunfire from the Krasny Oktyabr ceased. Gibraltar had been hit hard by the accurate shelling though the shock value of that would far outweigh what little real destruction was done. Still afloat though fatally wounded, the Allies weren’t about to leave the Soviet ship alone. It was hit by more Exocets out of Gibraltar and then in came aircraft on attack runs: first Spanish jets then the RAF. Still, after all of this, it remained afloat and refused to die. Royal Marines on The Rock wanted to go out in assault boats and ‘take’ the ship: it was a dozen miles offshore and what a prize it would be. That was a flight of fancy. Imagine the casualties from undertaking a mission like that on the fly… The Royal Navy would have the kill instead. Boxer’s Lynx put two Sea Skua missiles into her before the submarine HMS Conqueror used torpedo after torpedo to put holes in the battle-cruiser. Finally, the Krasny Oktyabr tipped over and sunk. There’d be celebrations, many of them, yet a nuclear disaster of immense magnitude was to occur when her reactor blew up. The environmental clean-up would have ecological and political consequences for many years to come. These sinkings (apart from the Slava which got away) came at a price though. While hitting the big ships and also sinking many others – three smaller cruisers, seven destroyers and two frigates plus six support ships – the Allies lost aircraft, submarines and also surface ships of their own. There were many missile firings by the Mediterranean Fleet before it was overcome and Soviet naval air power smashed up the Allied navies. This came from distance though, aircraft flying from Malta, because the last of those aircraft in Melilla remained outnumbered and could do very little when the big fight came. Eight of the Allies own major warships would be lost (add the Royal Navy’s losses here to those suffered in the Battle of the Baltic Exits and the losses combined would bring tears to the eye) and another dozen damaged. Unlike the Soviets, wounded Allied ships could retreat to a friendly port and that did help somewhat with saving ships and lives. Nonetheless, the losses were horrendous in terms of ships and sailors. When the Slava ran back east, along with other ships, this meant that the Mediterranean Fleet hadn’t been finished off. Giving chase though was impossible. The Allied navies couldn’t do it. The Dedalo had been one of those Allied casualties, hit with a wave of missiles from the Krasny Oktyabr (she didn’t sink yet after putting into Rota, she’d never sail again), and that meant that there was no aircraft carrier available. Over in the central parts of the Med., the French and the Italians had their huge gathering of naval power and the airbases on land too. If anyone was going to finish off the Soviet’s Atlantic ambitions finally, put the last of their ships on the bottom of the sea, it would be them. Geo-political events after the attack on Sweden looked likely that that was going to happen too. Great update as always James. Does Spain operate two carriers, this one the Príncipe de Asturias which in OTL only was commissioned in 1988 but with war i would assume she might have entered here in 1984 already. And the DédaloI couldn't see them getting the PdA to sea in this timeframe. Maybe later in the year but not yet. Britain is rushing the Ark Royal, moved it from Tyneside to the South Coast, but even then to throw everything at a ship as complicated as a carrier with such a small lead time is dangerous. |
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lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,096
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Post by lordroel on Nov 11, 2018 20:22:42 GMT
Great update as always James. Does Spain operate two carriers, this one the Príncipe de Asturias which in OTL only was commissioned in 1988 but with war i would assume she might have entered here in 1984 already. And the DédaloI couldn't see them getting the PdA to sea in this timeframe. Maybe later in the year but not yet. Britain is rushing the Ark Royal, moved it from Tyneside to the South Coast, but even then to throw everything at a ship as complicated as a carrier with such a small lead time is dangerous. So it is only the Dédalo with the Principe de Asturias being a nice target for a Soviet missile strike either from a Soviet bomber ore submarine. |
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 11, 2018 22:49:36 GMT
Well that's just about finished off the Soviet surface fleet in the western theatres, although the allies have paid a butchers bill to do so. Sounds like now that's done the bloc is finally going to make a move, possibly? I hope their not going to try and pretend their responding to the attack on Sweden through as that's obviously not the case. If it had been, especially since they knew of the threats to Sweden they would have stepped in when it was attacked.
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Post by eurowatch on Nov 11, 2018 23:07:34 GMT
(284b)January 1985: The Mediterranean There had been bureaucratic objections yet the opening of the Gibraltar Straits, Operation Orel (translation: Eagle), was to be led by the Soviet Navy. The Soviet Air Force committed significant forces to Orel yet they all answered both operationally and tactically to the wishes of the Navy. The Air Force didn’t like this, holding in contempt their comrades in the Navy, but the orders stood. Once the airhead at Melilla was open, aircraft would begin flying from there. The air unit assigned was a detached squadron from a Guards regiment belonging to the Air Force but the Navy had them doing what they wanted done in support of the Mediterranean Fleet and doing it straight away. Once there were half a dozen fighters there inside the secured Spanish exclave, long before any serious strength could be built-up, the MiG-27 Floggers were flying combat missions. The Floggers were out over the Alboran Sea and making attacks on surface targets, any Allied ships encountered, while also meant to shoot down Allied fighters too. They were rather outnumbered. The Spanish filled the skies with Mirages and got one of the Floggers on the first day and two more the next. With no losses of their own, the Spanish Air Force wiped out half of the Soviet land-based air cover. More aircraft were dispatched to Melilla with the rest of that lead squadron flying from Malta and aiming to get another nine Floggers across on long overwater ferry flights where the MiG-27s used external fuel tanks like the ones before them had. Cruise missiles fired from a quartet of Backfires shot towards mainland Spanish airbases at the same time after the Navy had been made to understand by the Air Force that this had to be done to keep the Spanish off guard if the Navy wanted air cover for their ships. The Spanish did get their fighters up to try to engage those cruise missiles rather than flood the Alboran Sea with Mirages again, yet they also still had a fighter patrol to the south as well already ongoing at the time. Two Mirage-IIIs, high-speed interceptors, came across the middle trio of Floggers inbound for Melilla. Laden with those fuel tanks, the Soviet aircraft were in trouble. They each mounted a pair of air-to-air missiles for self-defence but to use them effectively when out over the water far from Melilla would mean conducting a release of those tanks… and thus the pilots would end up going for a swim. The flight leader took too long to decide what to do and in the meantime the Spanish fired. Short of fuel themselves after a long patrol, the Mirage pilots fired off two missiles each and turned north without pressing home their attack. Two of the Floggers went down leaving the last one all alone to fly onwards to Melilla. The pilot had been left impotent to stop his two comrades from dying and, like his superiors, raged against the Navy for putting him in this situation. There were now ten MiG-27s operating from Melilla when plans had been for fifteen. Ten or even fifteen didn’t compare favourably in any way to the far larger numbers of Allied aircraft across in Spain though, not by a long stretch. The Spanish held the command role over Allied operations in the Gibraltar Straits as part of a larger position through the Western Med. before the Soviets moved their fleet across the sea towards the Atlantic. Smaller forces of their allies – Britain, Portugal and the United States – answered to their established headquarters though there was a lot of joint effort in this rather than the Spanish telling everyone what to do. Never a part of NATO, the Spanish still worked well with new allies. American contribution came from a trio of submarines (quite a force despite the low number) and a part squadron of P-3 Orions flying from Rota; the Portuguese had a variety of small warships assigned. It was the British who made the significant non-Spanish contribution to the Allied force. They had troops in Gibraltar and Madeira who were joined by extra reinforcements of Royal Marines flown in mid-January to form a provisional force deemed the 2nd Commando Brigade. With their troops, any land incursion on the Iberian Peninsula similar to what occurred at Melilla would be repulsed. There were already Jaguars and Nimrods at Gibraltar and they were now joined by Tornados outfitted for the naval strike role – with anti-ship missiles – who flew to Moron Airbase; these would have been mightily-useful staying back in Britain with another identical-tasked squadron which had to on their own face the Soviet Baltic Fleet. At sea, the Royal Navy had a task group of warships west of Gibraltar. With more time, it could have been heavily reinforced – the newly-finished carrier HMS Ark Royal was at Portsmouth getting finishing touches for wartime early service – but the time was short and so instead only an extra submarine could reach the area instead. The Spanish had the majority of the assigned forces. They had troops all along their mainland coastline and reinforced the already large garrison across at Ceuta with a battalion of paratroopers, a battery of heavy guns and missile teams for both air defence & anti-tank roles. Aircraft weren’t flying from that exclave as there wasn’t an airport or airbase there and the Spanish had to stretch their defences from the Balearic Islands to Gibraltar but there were still plenty of Mirages (both the F-1 attack-fighters and -III interceptors), American-supplied F-4s and Spanish-built F-5s in service. The naval forces of Spain in-place to block Soviet access to the Atlantic were impressive in number. They had an aircraft carrier, SPS Dedalo, once the USS Cabot which had served in the Second World War and now flew Harriers. While old, she was capable of supporting the air operations of those jump-jets and that was what mattered. Destroyers, frigates, patrol boats and submarines aplenty were all in the area, many of those which had seen action late last year off the Canary Islands. The Spanish Navy also had Z.14 HueyCobra helicopter gunships tasked to support their lighter warships and to deal with enemy naval helicopters too who wouldn’t be as well armed. Once there were Soviet fighter-bombers flying from Melilla, the Mediterranean Feet moved forwards. They’d been generally stationary – as a formation, not individually for the ships moved about – while waiting and been positioned far southeast of Majorca, northeast of Algiers. Being out in open water there put them at the edge of fighter cover from Malta but beyond the reasonable grasp of air attacks coming out of mainland Spain. January 20th saw the Soviets move west once again. The Alboran Sea was where the Soviets and the Allies clashed, the eastern side of the Gibraltar Straits. Air power opened the action followed by submarines joining in and only afterwards came the limited participation of naval surface forces despite each side having many of those available for combat. The victors wouldn’t be the Soviet Mediterranean Fleet. Focusing on the big ships, those five major surface combatants, the Allies got four of them. The carrier Kuybyshev never got to use her Forgers effectively nor even bring to bear her arsenal of long-range anti-ship missiles either. A US Navy submarine crippled her with torpedo hits which allowed Allied air power to strike against a sitting duck. That air power was those RAF Tornados who came in low, oh so very low, and smashed Sea Eagle sea-skimming missiles into the Kuybyshev. These missiles were still new in service with the RAF only having made a few firings off Norway last year with Buccaneers doing that. Here in the Med., the Sea Eagle used by Tornados showed its worth. The many hits set the Soviet carrier alight and eliminated damage control efforts to save her after the American torpedo strike. The fires would eventually be put out by onrushing sea water when she sunk. It cost the RAF five Tornados in total – three lost to a huge SAM barrage and two more to close-in rapid-fire anti-aircraft guns – but this was deemed worth it to destroy such a ship whose presence in the Atlantic couldn’t be tolerated. Another one of those American submarines sunk the helicopter carrier Leningrad. This was the USS Dallas again, the same vessel so active early in the war’s first naval battles in the Eastern Med. which had all that success then but had been unable to stop air attacks destroying most of the Sixth Fleet. Torpedo hits from her sunk the Leningrad. A return to Rota while flying a Jolly Roger would come for the Dallas, before in later weeks from New York the actions of her and her crew would be celebrated by American propaganda. Twice now the Americans had destroyed Leningrad: the city and the ship named after it. The Moskva was a much harder kill. Mirage F-1s went after that sistership to the Leningrad, fighting through SAMs which took down several on the way in and on the way out too. A pair of the fighter-bombers got through them and the intensive anti-aircraft fire from radar-directed guns to run a string of bombs perfectly down the full length of the ship. Some exploded on impact; more went in through her foredeck bristling with weapons, her superstructure amidships and the rear flight-deck before detonating. The damage done was excellent but wouldn’t kill her. The Spanish had to have another go and that they did. Their F-4s in service were usually tasked for fighter duties but retained attack capabilities. Again when coming at the Moskva, several aircraft were lost but others got through and the F-4s dropped more bombs on the ship. Earlier fires got out of control after the second attack and the helicopter carrier would burn furiously until she was eventually abandoned and left to the seas to take her. Both the Krasny Oktyabr and the Slava unleashed their barrages of missiles. Shipwrecks and Sandboxs flew against Allied naval forces with lethal results. The battlecruiser and the missile-cruiser afterwards were struck at with attacks that the Allies had hoped to get in first but had to settle for doing afterwards. A Royal Navy submarine failed to get the Slava and was sunk itself; the Krasny Oktyabr fell afoul of the Royal Navy though when it tried to run through the straits. The barrage of missiles had sunk or damaged all of those Allied surface ships and the way ahead was thought clear. From out of Gibraltar came missiles though. These were Exocets based around the Excalibur system which had the whole Gibraltar Straits in range. Two perfect hits were recorded. Burning but still capable of fighting, the Krasny Oktyabr turned towards Gibraltar. The ship had other weapons and the Excalibur battery was being reloaded. From the Kirov-class warship which could be best described as a behemoth, the guns on the ship opened fire as if she was a battleship of old. These were rather accurate: the Soviets gunners only had one twin-barrelled 130mm gun but it was put to good use. RAF and also Spanish aircraft were on their way to intervene and the Excalibur battery (a trailer system which had switched positions) was also finally reloaded. Before any of that could be used, the Krasny Oktyabr was struck by more Exocets. The frigate HMS Boxer fired them from over on the western side of the straits, her targeting aided by one of her helicopters flying dangerously close to the Soviet battle-cruiser but aided by the smoke pouring out of her. One, two, three, four – the Boxer got excellent hits in. Each Exocet, these particular missiles part of a recent French delivery to Britain, neutrality be damned, hit low along the port side just above the waterline. One failed to explode but the other three did. The gunfire from the Krasny Oktyabr ceased. Gibraltar had been hit hard by the accurate shelling though the shock value of that would far outweigh what little real destruction was done. Still afloat though fatally wounded, the Allies weren’t about to leave the Soviet ship alone. It was hit by more Exocets out of Gibraltar and then in came aircraft on attack runs: first Spanish jets then the RAF. Still, after all of this, it remained afloat and refused to die. Royal Marines on The Rock wanted to go out in assault boats and ‘take’ the ship: it was a dozen miles offshore and what a prize it would be. That was a flight of fancy. Imagine the casualties from undertaking a mission like that on the fly… The Royal Navy would have the kill instead. Boxer’s Lynx put two Sea Skua missiles into her before the submarine HMS Conqueror used torpedo after torpedo to put holes in the battle-cruiser. Finally, the Krasny Oktyabr tipped over and sunk. There’d be celebrations, many of them, yet a nuclear disaster of immense magnitude was to occur when her reactor blew up. The environmental clean-up would have ecological and political consequences for many years to come. These sinkings (apart from the Slava which got away) came at a price though. While hitting the big ships and also sinking many others – three smaller cruisers, seven destroyers and two frigates plus six support ships – the Allies lost aircraft, submarines and also surface ships of their own. There were many missile firings by the Mediterranean Fleet before it was overcome and Soviet naval air power smashed up the Allied navies. This came from distance though, aircraft flying from Malta, because the last of those aircraft in Melilla remained outnumbered and could do very little when the big fight came. Eight of the Allies own major warships would be lost (add the Royal Navy’s losses here to those suffered in the Battle of the Baltic Exits and the losses combined would bring tears to the eye) and another dozen damaged. Unlike the Soviets, wounded Allied ships could retreat to a friendly port and that did help somewhat with saving ships and lives. Nonetheless, the losses were horrendous in terms of ships and sailors. When the Slava ran back east, along with other ships, this meant that the Mediterranean Fleet hadn’t been finished off. Giving chase though was impossible. The Allied navies couldn’t do it. The Dedalo had been one of those Allied casualties, hit with a wave of missiles from the Krasny Oktyabr (she didn’t sink yet after putting into Rota, she’d never sail again), and that meant that there was no aircraft carrier available. Over in the central parts of the Med., the French and the Italians had their huge gathering of naval power and the airbases on land too. If anyone was going to finish off the Soviet’s Atlantic ambitions finally, put the last of their ships on the bottom of the sea, it would be them. Geo-political events after the attack on Sweden looked likely that that was going to happen too. Seems that soon the Soviets are going to get a grim reminder of their own vulnerability. |
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Post by lukedalton on Nov 12, 2018 13:25:29 GMT
Well that's just about finished off the Soviet surface fleet in the western theatres, although the allies have paid a butchers bill to do so. Sounds like now that's done the bloc is finally going to make a move, possibly? I hope their not going to try and pretend their responding to the attack on Sweden through as that's obviously not the case. If it had been, especially since they knew of the threats to Sweden they would have stepped in when it was attacked. Frankly i doubt that anyone will be interested in the official reason why the EEC has decided to enter the war; internally speaking from the first use of nuclear weapons to the attack at the nuclear plant, to the support for the remnant far left terror group to the last round of negotiaton and the kidnapping of the little child, Sweden and the developement in the Mediterranean are just the last straw. Plus, first you had said that the bloc don't have the possibility to meaningfull support Sweden and now you accuse them of hypocrisy because they have not done immediately |
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