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Post by redrobin65 on Nov 7, 2018 21:08:18 GMT
Good update. Well, I guess that Sabaton will have even more material to write and sing about.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 7, 2018 22:17:04 GMT
James
Well it has come down to it. Your hinted that the bloc will break its neutrality for some reason but would have been better if they had sought to make some plans with him 1st. Depends on how effective the 1st Soviet onslaught however and where it will be directed. If the Soviets are seeking to break through the straits or attack Sweden from the south and the bloc suddenly enters the conflict it could take a lot of pressure off but then they will have to defend Germany.
A sudden entry by the bloc could also make things awkward for the Soviet Black Sea fleet, especially if its caught west of Italy as that could cause them a lot of problems and largely remove the threat to Gib and Iberia.
It could put Britain in an awkward position as do we risk trying to boost the defence of Norway in the hope that Sweden will hope with the former neutrals suddenly taking the offensive or do we seek to withdraw in the expectation of the fall of Sweden and then almost certainly Norway?
Hopefully if we're asked to send forces to Germany the reaction is bog off, albeit possibly in more diplomatic terms. After being shafted by them that's not a mistake Britain should make again.
Steve
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Dan
Warrant Officer
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Post by Dan on Nov 8, 2018 14:00:46 GMT
(283a)January 1985: Sweden That deadline then expired on January 9th 1985 and Sweden found itself at war with its neutrality violently ended. (to be continued) While this may be the case, why do I get the feeling that the Soviets will have bitten off more than they can chew here. While the Swedes don't have thousands of tanks, the tanks they do have are set up very nicely for defence, as is their airforce. Another issue that the Soviets may not have taken into account - Finland. They are quiet at the moment, but there will be right wingers, who if they're not already in custody could end up trying to hit at the Soviets. If the Soviets react as I would expect them to, then they will have a Vietnam/Afghanistan situation on their own border...
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 8, 2018 15:32:23 GMT
(283a)January 1985: Sweden That deadline then expired on January 9th 1985 and Sweden found itself at war with its neutrality violently ended. (to be continued) While this may be the case, why do I get the feeling that the Soviets will have bitten off more than they can chew here. While the Swedes don't have thousands of tanks, the tanks they do have are set up very nicely for defence, as is their airforce. Another issue that the Soviets may not have taken into account - Finland. They are quiet at the moment, but there will be right wingers, who if they're not already in custody could end up trying to hit at the Soviets. If the Soviets react as I would expect them to, then they will have a Vietnam/Afghanistan situation on their own border...
Good point. I would suspect the Finnish authorities would seek to keep their heads down, at least until it looks like Sweden might survive and a successful uprising against Soviet forces in their country might work. However still likely that there will be some people seeking to take action even if Palme was so offensive about them.
Sweden will fight hard and the fact the Soviets will probably be sending in 2nd line [at best] troops will help, as well as the fact its going to be a winter campaign. However unless the bloc jumps in quickly they will go down as the Soviets will be able to concentrate too much forces against them. Especially as they can be attacked from virtually all directions including amphibious attacks from the south and from occupied parts of Norway to the NW.
The other considerations are: a) How much will the Soviets keep back to prepare for a possible combat with the bloc? b) How much has the attacks on Britain worn down Soviet air power in the region? c) Since Sweden isn't an allied power will the Soviets use chemicals against it?
Its possible, if a war with the bloc pulled off the vast bulk of the Soviet land and air forces and their fleets were defeated in the Med and trying to force a way through the Danish straits that Britain could land some of those regular units in S Norway and move overland to support Sweden, although it would be difficult securing transport and supply routes.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Nov 8, 2018 20:17:11 GMT
Good update. Well, I guess that Sabaton will have even more material to write and sing about. I'd never heard of this band before until I looked them up. They won an award in 2012 called 'Metal As Fuck'. That tells me everything! James
Well it has come down to it. Your hinted that the bloc will break its neutrality for some reason but would have been better if they had sought to make some plans with him 1st. Depends on how effective the 1st Soviet onslaught however and where it will be directed. If the Soviets are seeking to break through the straits or attack Sweden from the south and the bloc suddenly enters the conflict it could take a lot of pressure off but then they will have to defend Germany.
A sudden entry by the bloc could also make things awkward for the Soviet Black Sea fleet, especially if its caught west of Italy as that could cause them a lot of problems and largely remove the threat to Gib and Iberia.
It could put Britain in an awkward position as do we risk trying to boost the defence of Norway in the hope that Sweden will hope with the former neutrals suddenly taking the offensive or do we seek to withdraw in the expectation of the fall of Sweden and then almost certainly Norway?
Hopefully if we're asked to send forces to Germany the reaction is bog off, albeit possibly in more diplomatic terms. After being shafted by them that's not a mistake Britain should make again.
Steve
It is all about what they do to Sweden but also so much more too. Western Europe will see war but how it goes is still all in the works. That fight in the Med. is up next after Sweden and what you refer to there is important. That attitude with Britain will be something voiced but in reality it couldn't happen. Britain would have to fight for every inch of West Germany, Dutch, Belgian and French soil if it came to that less the Soviets put aircraft and Scuds right across the Channel. That just couldn't be allowed to happen without a fight. It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face... to the extreme. While this may be the case, why do I get the feeling that the Soviets will have bitten off more than they can chew here. While the Swedes don't have thousands of tanks, the tanks they do have are set up very nicely for defence, as is their airforce. Another issue that the Soviets may not have taken into account - Finland. They are quiet at the moment, but there will be right wingers, who if they're not already in custody could end up trying to hit at the Soviets. If the Soviets react as I would expect them to, then they will have a Vietnam/Afghanistan situation on their own border... Sweden can defend itself but the attack they will face is something unforeseen in how it goes. Finland, yes, poor Finland. The Soviets don't have that in their hands though are making use so much of the country's assets - ships, passports, airspace - that it will have an eventual affect. If it goes bad, I'd expect a war just like that and the Soviets would struggle especially since Leningrad is still a radioactive hole in the ground.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Nov 8, 2018 20:17:58 GMT
(283b)
January 1985: Sweden
Three hours passed after the reaching of the deadline without any Soviet action taken. Three long hours where Sweden’s government and military forces were on edge, waiting for an attack to come. Perhaps the Soviets had been bluffing all along. Perhaps…
…perhaps not.
Without leaving Soviet airspace, let alone going out over the Baltic Sea, a whole regiment of Soviet Air Force Bear bombers from the Strategic Reserve attacked Sweden and its capital. They were above Estonia and Latvia, a long way from Swedish detection. Cruise missiles were launched, old ones and new ones, before the bombers turned away and headed back to their bases. Those missiles flew onwards, heading west towards Sweden. The raced towards Government, military and economic targets in the general area around Stockholm. There were almost eighty of them.
Launch failures, navigation errors and Swedish military action brought that number down to sixty-one which were able to reach their targets. Sixty-one missiles could do a terrible lot of damage though and that they did. Casualties were immense. Swedish civilians bore the brunt of these casualties during the afternoon strike. Air raid sirens had wailed and people had got to cover but the big warheads on so many missiles hitting all over the place took so many lives. Another strike came in the evening, several hours after the first one. The same regiment of bombers fired another massive wave of missiles, these from above the Gulf of Finland with this strike. Once again, the missiles bore-in upon Stockholm. Huge casualties from the second strike were taken and among them this time were many of those from rescuers too. Sweden learnt the horror of war. Their capital was hit with a similar attack to which had been seen elsewhere such as the four British cities of Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle though more missiles were fired at Stockholm that at those (in an individual sense). The Soviet Union was Sweden’s neighbour and was able to hit it with ease. Swedish interceptors, Saab-built Drakens and Viggens, got some of those missiles in-flight, especially the older ones which were slow and in effect nothing more than drones, but they were unable to stop the majority. Nor were Sweden’s air defences able to do anything about those bombers. They could do this again at their leisure.
Dawn on January 10th saw the very south of Sweden come under military attack, a different kind to what hit Stockholm. Swedish interceptors engaged incoming Soviet attack aircraft coming north out of East Germany and Poland, taking down some of them yet many more aircraft came behind them: MiGs for fighter cover and Sukhois on strike missions. The naval base at Karlskrona over to the east was hit hard though the focus was on the western side of the Scania region for those aircraft as they raided military targets. The air attacks preceded a fast-moving assault convoy of Soviet naval infantry. The 336th Guards Brigade approached in hovercraft, assault boats and helicopters after coming up from the island of Rugen. There were amphibious ships carrying more of the brigade and a whole armada of warships in support. The weather was terrible – winter in the Baltic was hardly the time to launch a major amphibious assault – but Soviet forces went through it and onto land. The naval infantry started hitting their landing sites. They came ashore and were fast in battle with an alert and waiting Swedish Army. The first assault teams took heavy losses but this was expected. Behind them came the follow-on wave: more men brought in with armoured support and a lot of firepower available to push onwards. Within hours, Malmo was encircled. That city was left alone because the Soviets were pushing northwards. The naval infantry were joined by a brigade of airmobile troops who were flown into Malmo’s outlying airport, one which many Soviet and Swedish soldiers had died fighting over. Through the snow and over the flat terrain found here at the bottom end of Sweden, the Soviets carried on moving. Their opponents fought for their country and fought well. The Swedes didn’t give in easy. The first day saw the best performance from them where they forestalled Soviet advances in many places and conducted organised withdrawals from other points to maintain their order. The Soviets threw in an amphibious tank regiment on the second day though, tanks covered in battel by helicopter gunships with them. These helped open up the way for the drive northwards up along the western shore. Swedish strongpoints established inland were generally held though found themselves outflanked. Past Lund and on towards Helsingborg the Soviets went, taking heavy losses yet driving the Swedes back as they blasted all opposition in their path. It took another two days to get there but once reached, the city was like Malmo bypassed directly as the airmobile troops – with the 35th Guards Brigade; a unit tasked for operations in Western Europe and not Scandinavian-rolled but thrown into this fight – took over the advance and got to Angelholm. Those men were looking out upon the Kattegat, the waters on the far side of the Øresund. There they halted under orders from above and dug-in with landwards-facing defenses alongside the naval infantry and the tanks with them: the Swedish Army hadn’t been beaten, just shoved out of the way. Their mission had been achieved. The waters now at their backs were a fight for the Soviet Navy to have.
The Øresund was forced open using nuclear weapons. Underwater blasts took place where the Soviets attacked the Swedish Navy and its defensive minefields with a couple of dozen tactical nukes. The blasts were low yield and the only sight of them above the surface were the air bubbles which raced up. Torpedoes and depth charges were used to blast open what difficult and time-consuming demining would have had to do. Swedish submarines were targeted too when spotted, denying the little boats a fantastic opportunity to operate in crowded waters where they could have done brilliantly. Above the surface, the naval force which had escorted the landing forced onto the Swedish mainland was joined by more ships who entered the Øresund. They were in sight of Danish defenses over in Jutland which included coastal fortresses (very modern ones with big guns dug into the cliffs) and mobile missile batteries. Danish forces on land didn’t open fire. Danish naval forces withdrew into Fakse Bay & Koge Bay and also closer to Copenhagen itself. The Swedes were left all by themselves, abandoned by a terrified Danish government. Engagements between Soviet and Swedish naval forces, each with air support, saw each side lose ships and aircraft. The Soviets had the numbers and were ‘cheating’ with their underwater nuclear blasts. At one point, the Swedes appeared to have the upper hand in the fight with their mass of small and fast missile- & gun boats but then a lot of Soviet tactical aircraft showed up in daylight and were covered from fighters above keeping Swedish aircraft clear. Plenty of those boats were hit by air attacks, far too many to allow the Swedes any more hope. A withdrawal was made, one which soon became a panicked flight as what was left of the Swedish Navy in the Øresund went fast towards the Kattegat and out of the way. The Soviet Baltic Fleet followed them. There were a few minefields encountered, ones answered again with underwater nuclear blasts – the environmental damage was someone else’s problem –, and they then went towards the Kattegat as well. There would be a different war to fight there, but it wouldn’t be against the Swedes.
The five days of warfare was mainly focused upon Stockholm on the first and then down in Scania in the next four. There were other clashes with aerial battles above the Baltic and around the island of Gotland in addition to a fight between light naval forces off the Aaland Islands. Full-scale war it was where this all occurred yet elsewhere, there was very little. The rest of Sweden was mainly left alone barring a few commando actions along Sweden’s winter-swept frontier with Soviet-influenced Finland and down the immense stretch of Sweden’s Baltic coastline. Sweden waited for something more, a major invasion either overland or a bigger amphibious operation than the limited – yet extremely violent – one in Scania. Neither came. Stockholm smouldered and the hospitals there were full of casualties. Tens of thousands of civilians were caught behind the lines in the occupied strip of Swedish territory while many more were fleeing the south of the country. The underwater nuclear blasts were known about by the government though not shared with the public. Everyone was waiting for what happened next. The Soviets did very little afterwards when it came to attacking Sweden beyond more than what they had. There were a series of air attacks made down in the south against Swedish military forces pushing against the Soviet outposts but no more. What Sweden couldn’t do was hit back against the Soviet Union nor liberate its territory. The Soviets didn’t push to take any more that they had.
Olaf Palme was forced to resign as prime minister by his government colleagues once the intense fighting came to an end. He wanted to stay on yet his fellow ministers forced him out. It was his actions which they saw as having put Sweden in this situation when it came to forcing Sweden into a position like it had ended up in. They formed a national government and had no intention of surrendering but wouldn’t see their country led by Palme any more. Fighting continued down in Scania. Swedish forces surrounded the occupied zone, digging-in just like the foreign occupiers were. Shooting and shelling took place in the following weeks there and in the skies there continued to be clashes too. Nonetheless, the Soviet-Swedish war had stalled into a stalemate. Another conflict had started though, that being the Battle of the Baltic Exits.
British and Norwegian naval and air forces took on the fight against the Soviet Baltic Fleet when it emerged from the Øresund and went across the Kattegat before turning west. The use of tactical nukes by the Soviets down in the south wasn’t matched in the north. They were expected by the Allies yet weren’t brought into play. Here it was just conventional.
Soviet aircraft were flying from Swedish airbases, which was something that earlier Allied plans hadn’t foreseen properly. Angelholm and Ljungbyhed were being used by Air Force and Naval Aviation aircraft along with more distant ones down in East Germany. The ability to have forward-deployed aircraft assisted the Soviets greatly in the effort to fight the way out. They did just that, engaging the Allies who tried to stop them who had their own forward airbases in southern Norway. There were more Soviet ships though a lot of them weren’t as capable as what the Allies could field. The Allies had been fast busy sewing minefields too. The fight was one where the opposing sides few times saw each other. Long nights and short days along with the use of long-range weapons made this happen. Both Danish and Swedish airspace (the latter in the wider Goteborg area; around which saw a city in fear) was violated during this. The battle was itself a series of many engagements all over the place without a fixed defining point that anyone could afterwards point to. As to a victor, that wasn’t easy to identify either.
The Soviet Baltic Fleet got out of the Baltic, fulfilling the whole point of going to war with Sweden. Many of the ships and submarines didn’t get past the Kattegat and the Skagerrak though and out into the North Sea to sail beyond them. Those that did so got out individually or in small groups and turned north to head towards the Norwegian Sea. The intention was for them to replace the Northern Fleet which had been decimated throughout December in fighting across the North Atlantic. Those that would reach ‘safety’ found in the Norwegian Sea were half of those who had made the breakout. The other half had either been sunk or turned back due to damage done to them. They’d gotten their licks in on the way, sinking Allied ships as well including five major Royal Navy warships – plus many smaller vessels and those of the Norwegian Navy too – and damaging others. The weather had helped with the breaking free of the Baltic Exits, so too had all of that air support given. Whether it was all worth it for the Soviets was a different matter. Was it? The war with Sweden wasn’t over and what they had done to that country would have immense geo-political effects continent-wide. Thirteen major warships (just destroyers and frigates, no aircraft carriers or cruisers were with the Baltic Fleet) reached the Norwegian Sea after the Battle of the Baltic Exits ended.
Getting thirteen ships out in open water brought the Soviets so much pain in response.
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Post by lukedalton on Nov 8, 2018 20:21:27 GMT
I doubt that the answer at the demand to send troops in Europe in case the rest of the EEC enter the fray will be negative; not only the Tatcher and all his goverment will be praise any possible deity for that but there is the need to stop the Soviet to come right in front of Dover and frankly having some base in Western Europe mean that the strategic position of the UK is even more f...ed up; so while showing the diplomatic middle finger can be satisfying for a whole 5 minutes...reality will immediately take control
Same for western Europe and Sweden, for how much they don't like Palme and his rethoric, the eventual fall of Sweden and the developing situation in the Med are too much, they basically can spell end at the de-facto independence of that nations; so i doubt that France and co. will be so reactive towards a possible invasion of Sweden and will try to give support at her, maybe the problem is that Bruxelles proposed a membership (even with the 'just for the current crisis' caveat) as a general diplomatic fig leaf to cover her military and diplomatically (and make it easier to sell at Germany) but Palme refused due to the EEC being a little too partial with her neutrality. At least they will try to do some diplomatic wave and give hint to Moscow that's not a good move; sure West Germany will not be thrilled, nevertheless they are gradually being surrounded and doing nothing will simply make the rest of the continent fall to the URSS without a single shot fired and everybody knows it at this stage, plus it's not that Bonn has been the good little boy too scared to do anything, basically all France has done needed German support and while not taking the political lead in this moment will be natural for Germany due to...ehm historical reason and everybody had limits.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 8, 2018 20:36:11 GMT
James
Well it has come down to it. Your hinted that the bloc will break its neutrality for some reason but would have been better if they had sought to make some plans with him 1st. Depends on how effective the 1st Soviet onslaught however and where it will be directed. If the Soviets are seeking to break through the straits or attack Sweden from the south and the bloc suddenly enters the conflict it could take a lot of pressure off but then they will have to defend Germany.
A sudden entry by the bloc could also make things awkward for the Soviet Black Sea fleet, especially if its caught west of Italy as that could cause them a lot of problems and largely remove the threat to Gib and Iberia.
It could put Britain in an awkward position as do we risk trying to boost the defence of Norway in the hope that Sweden will hope with the former neutrals suddenly taking the offensive or do we seek to withdraw in the expectation of the fall of Sweden and then almost certainly Norway?
Hopefully if we're asked to send forces to Germany the reaction is bog off, albeit possibly in more diplomatic terms. After being shafted by them that's not a mistake Britain should make again.
Steve
It is all about what they do to Sweden but also so much more too. Western Europe will see war but how it goes is still all in the works. That fight in the Med. is up next after Sweden and what you refer to there is important. That attitude with Britain will be something voiced but in reality it couldn't happen. Britain would have to fight for every inch of West Germany, Dutch, Belgian and French soil if it came to that less the Soviets put aircraft and Scuds right across the Channel. That just couldn't be allowed to happen without a fight. It would be cutting off your nose to spite your face... to the extreme.
Not really, Britain could only commit to such an action when the Soviets were approaching a serious breakthrough. That would still be doing far more than the neutrals did and I can see a lot of Brits arguing that we shouldn't pay more blood and money for those who deserted us. At least unless the bloc is willing to make serious payments in terms of direct aid to reconstruction say. Its the problem when you stab people in the back. They tend to be less than motivated to put out for you when there's no need. The bloc would be paying for their behaviour earlier in the war,
If it looked like the Soviets were making the sort of breakthrough to the Channel and the French weren't going to use nukes its a different matter. However if their stalled somewhere in Germany then there's no reason for Britain to spill more blood for non-allies.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 8, 2018 20:50:41 GMT
(283b)January 1985: Sweden Three hours passed after the reaching of the deadline without any Soviet action taken. Three long hours where Sweden’s government and military forces were on edge, waiting for an attack to come. Perhaps the Soviets had been bluffing all along. Perhaps… …perhaps not. Without leaving Soviet airspace, let alone going out over the Baltic Sea, a whole regiment of Soviet Air Force Bear bombers from the Strategic Reserve attacked Sweden and its capital. They were above Estonia and Latvia, a long way from Swedish detection. Cruise missiles were launched, old ones and new ones, before the bombers turned away and headed back to their bases. Those missiles flew onwards, heading west towards Sweden. The raced towards Government, military and economic targets in the general area around Stockholm. There were almost eighty of them. Launch failures, navigation errors and Swedish military action brought that number down to sixty-one which were able to reach their targets. Sixty-one missiles could do a terrible lot of damage though and that they did. Casualties were immense. Swedish civilians bore the brunt of these casualties during the afternoon strike. Air raid sirens had wailed and people had got to cover but the big warheads on so many missiles hitting all over the place took so many lives. Another strike came in the evening, several hours after the first one. The same regiment of bombers fired another massive wave of missiles, these from above the Gulf of Finland with this strike. Once again, the missiles bore-in upon Stockholm. Huge casualties from the second strike were taken and among them this time were many of those from rescuers too. Sweden learnt the horror of war. Their capital was hit with a similar attack to which had been seen elsewhere such as the four British cities of Belfast, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Newcastle though more missiles were fired at Stockholm that at those (in an individual sense). The Soviet Union was Sweden’s neighbour and was able to hit it with ease. Swedish interceptors, Saab-built Drakens and Viggens, got some of those missiles in-flight, especially the older ones which were slow and in effect nothing more than drones, but they were unable to stop the majority. Nor were Sweden’s air defences able to do anything about those bombers. They could do this again at their leisure. Dawn on January 10th saw the very south of Sweden come under military attack, a different kind to what hit Stockholm. Swedish interceptors engaged incoming Soviet attack aircraft coming north out of East Germany and Poland, taking down some of them yet many more aircraft came behind them: MiGs for fighter cover and Sukhois on strike missions. The naval base at Karlskrona over to the east was hit hard though the focus was on the western side of the Scania region for those aircraft as they raided military targets. The air attacks preceded a fast-moving assault convoy of Soviet naval infantry. The 336th Guards Brigade approached in hovercraft, assault boats and helicopters after coming up from the island of Rugen. There were amphibious ships carrying more of the brigade and a whole armada of warships in support. The weather was terrible – winter in the Baltic was hardly the time to launch a major amphibious assault – but Soviet forces went through it and onto land. The naval infantry started hitting their landing sites. They came ashore and were fast in battle with an alert and waiting Swedish Army. The first assault teams took heavy losses but this was expected. Behind them came the follow-on wave: more men brought in with armoured support and a lot of firepower available to push onwards. Within hours, Malmo was encircled. That city was left alone because the Soviets were pushing northwards. The naval infantry were joined by a brigade of airmobile troops who were flown into Malmo’s outlying airport, one which many Soviet and Swedish soldiers had died fighting over. Through the snow and over the flat terrain found here at the bottom end of Sweden, the Soviets carried on moving. Their opponents fought for their country and fought well. The Swedes didn’t give in easy. The first day saw the best performance from them where they forestalled Soviet advances in many places and conducted organised withdrawals from other points to maintain their order. The Soviets threw in an amphibious tank regiment on the second day though, tanks covered in battel by helicopter gunships with them. These helped open up the way for the drive northwards up along the western shore. Swedish strongpoints established inland were generally held though found themselves outflanked. Past Lund and on towards Helsingborg the Soviets went, taking heavy losses yet driving the Swedes back as they blasted all opposition in their path. It took another two days to get there but once reached, the city was like Malmo bypassed directly as the airmobile troops – with the 35th Guards Brigade; a unit tasked for operations in Western Europe and not Scandinavian-rolled but thrown into this fight – took over the advance and got to Angelholm. Those men were looking out upon the Kattegat, the waters on the far side of the Øresund. There they halted under orders from above and dug-in with landwards-facing defenses alongside the naval infantry and the tanks with them: the Swedish Army hadn’t been beaten, just shoved out of the way. Their mission had been achieved. The waters now at their backs were a fight for the Soviet Navy to have. The Øresund was forced open using nuclear weapons. Underwater blasts took place where the Soviets attacked the Swedish Navy and its defensive minefields with a couple of dozen tactical nukes. The blasts were low yield and the only sight of them above the surface were the air bubbles which raced up. Torpedoes and depth charges were used to blast open what difficult and time-consuming demining would have had to do. Swedish submarines were targeted too when spotted, denying the little boats a fantastic opportunity to operate in crowded waters where they could have done brilliantly. Above the surface, the naval force which had escorted the landing forced onto the Swedish mainland was joined by more ships who entered the Øresund. They were in sight of Danish defenses over in Jutland which included coastal fortresses (very modern ones with big guns dug into the cliffs) and mobile missile batteries. Danish forces on land didn’t open fire. Danish naval forces withdrew into Fakse Bay & Koge Bay and also closer to Copenhagen itself. The Swedes were left all by themselves, abandoned by a terrified Danish government. Engagements between Soviet and Swedish naval forces, each with air support, saw each side lose ships and aircraft. The Soviets had the numbers and were ‘cheating’ with their underwater nuclear blasts. At one point, the Swedes appeared to have the upper hand in the fight with their mass of small and fast missile- & gun boats but then a lot of Soviet tactical aircraft showed up in daylight and were covered from fighters above keeping Swedish aircraft clear. Plenty of those boats were hit by air attacks, far too many to allow the Swedes any more hope. A withdrawal was made, one which soon became a panicked flight as what was left of the Swedish Navy in the Øresund went fast towards the Kattegat and out of the way. The Soviet Baltic Fleet followed them. There were a few minefields encountered, ones answered again with underwater nuclear blasts – the environmental damage was someone else’s problem –, and they then went towards the Kattegat as well. There would be a different war to fight there, but it wouldn’t be against the Swedes. The five days of warfare was mainly focused upon Stockholm on the first and then down in Scania in the next four. There were other clashes with aerial battles above the Baltic and around the island of Gotland in addition to a fight between light naval forces off the Aaland Islands. Full-scale war it was where this all occurred yet elsewhere, there was very little. The rest of Sweden was mainly left alone barring a few commando actions along Sweden’s winter-swept frontier with Soviet-influenced Finland and down the immense stretch of Sweden’s Baltic coastline. Sweden waited for something more, a major invasion either overland or a bigger amphibious operation than the limited – yet extremely violent – one in Scania. Neither came. Stockholm smouldered and the hospitals there were full of casualties. Tens of thousands of civilians were caught behind the lines in the occupied strip of Swedish territory while many more were fleeing the south of the country. The underwater nuclear blasts were known about by the government though not shared with the public. Everyone was waiting for what happened next. The Soviets did very little afterwards when it came to attacking Sweden beyond more than what they had. There were a series of air attacks made down in the south against Swedish military forces pushing against the Soviet outposts but no more. What Sweden couldn’t do was hit back against the Soviet Union nor liberate its territory. The Soviets didn’t push to take any more that they had. Olaf Palme was forced to resign as prime minister by his government colleagues once the intense fighting came to an end. He wanted to stay on yet his fellow ministers forced him out. It was his actions which they saw as having put Sweden in this situation when it came to forcing Sweden into a position like it had ended up in. They formed a national government and had no intention of surrendering but wouldn’t see their country led by Palme any more. Fighting continued down in Scania. Swedish forces surrounded the occupied zone, digging-in just like the foreign occupiers were. Shooting and shelling took place in the following weeks there and in the skies there continued to be clashes too. Nonetheless, the Soviet-Swedish war had stalled into a stalemate. Another conflict had started though, that being the Battle of the Baltic Exits. British and Norwegian naval and air forces took on the fight against the Soviet Baltic Fleet when it emerged from the Øresund and went across the Kattegat before turning west. The use of tactical nukes by the Soviets down in the south wasn’t matched in the north. They were expected by the Allies yet weren’t brought into play. Here it was just conventional. Soviet aircraft were flying from Swedish airbases, which was something that earlier Allied plans hadn’t foreseen properly. Angelholm and Ljungbyhed were being used by Air Force and Naval Aviation aircraft along with more distant ones down in East Germany. The ability to have forward-deployed aircraft assisted the Soviets greatly in the effort to fight the way out. They did just that, engaging the Allies who tried to stop them who had their own forward airbases in southern Norway. There were more Soviet ships though a lot of them weren’t as capable as what the Allies could field. The Allies had been fast busy sewing minefields too. The fight was one where the opposing sides few times saw each other. Long nights and short days along with the use of long-range weapons made this happen. Both Danish and Swedish airspace (the latter in the wider Goteborg area; around which saw a city in fear) was violated during this. The battle was itself a series of many engagements all over the place without a fixed defining point that anyone could afterwards point to. As to a victor, that wasn’t easy to identify either. The Soviet Baltic Fleet got out of the Baltic, fulfilling the whole point of going to war with Sweden. Many of the ships and submarines didn’t get past the Kattegat and the Skagerrak though and out into the North Sea to sail beyond them. Those that did so got out individually or in small groups and turned north to head towards the Norwegian Sea. The intention was for them to replace the Northern Fleet which had been decimated throughout December in fighting across the North Atlantic. Those that would reach ‘safety’ found in the Norwegian Sea were half of those who had made the breakout. The other half had either been sunk or turned back due to damage done to them. They’d gotten their licks in on the way, sinking Allied ships as well including five major Royal Navy warships – plus many smaller vessels and those of the Norwegian Navy too – and damaging others. The weather had helped with the breaking free of the Baltic Exits, so too had all of that air support given. Whether it was all worth it for the Soviets was a different matter. Was it? The war with Sweden wasn’t over and what they had done to that country would have immense geo-political effects continent-wide. Thirteen major warships (just destroyers and frigates, no aircraft carriers or cruisers were with the Baltic Fleet) reached the Norwegian Sea after the Battle of the Baltic Exits ended. Getting thirteen ships out in open water brought the Soviets so much pain in response.
Damned that's another bloodbath. Looks like the Soviets have lost a lot although their inflicted further allied losses and could make the further defense of Norway impossible, especially given the new air bases the Soviets have as well. Possibly the allies should have responded in kind with nuclear counter-strikes again the Baltic fleet following the Soviet example.
The Soviets have been relatively controlled here, rather than going all out as they have elsewhere. Only taking limited territory to open up the straits.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 8, 2018 21:01:55 GMT
I doubt that the answer at the demand to send troops in Europe in case the rest of the EEC enter the fray will be negative; not only the Tatcher and all his goverment will be praise any possible deity for that but there is the need to stop the Soviet to come right in front of Dover and frankly having some base in Western Europe mean that the strategic position of the UK is even more f...ed up; so while showing the diplomatic middle finger can be satisfying for a whole 5 minutes...reality will immediately take control Same for western Europe and Sweden, for how much they don't like Palme and his rethoric, the eventual fall of Sweden and the developing situation in the Med are too much, they basically can spell end at the de-facto independence of that nations; so i doubt that France and co. will be so reactive towards a possible invasion of Sweden and will try to give support at her, maybe the problem is that Bruxelles proposed a membership (even with the 'just for the current crisis' caveat) as a general diplomatic fig leaf to cover her military and diplomatically (and make it easier to sell at Germany) but Palme refused due to the EEC being a little too partial with her neutrality. At least they will try to do some diplomatic wave and give hint to Moscow that's not a good move; sure West Germany will not be thrilled, nevertheless they are gradually being surrounded and doing nothing will simply make the rest of the continent fall to the URSS without a single shot fired and everybody knows it at this stage, plus it's not that Bonn has been the good little boy too scared to do anything, basically all France has done needed German support and while not taking the political lead in this moment will be natural for Germany due to...ehm historical reason and everybody had limits.
Well if the bloc does finally decide to enter the war they better not be stupid enough to try demanding. Asking, with apologies for their previous actions and they might get somewhere but demanding and even a weak leader like Thatcher will probably be forced to tell them to get lost, at least until its in Britain's interest to commit to a fight on the continent.
You think the bloc can apply doubt standards regardless and get away with it? Being liars has an impact on how others treat you. As I said in my previous post if the Soviets get anywhere near the channel and in any sort of shape to still pose a threat then yes its in Britain's interests to intervene. Until then its best to help their allies win the war to secure Britain's own vital supply lines and rest up as much as possible for the next round.
Plus given you were so confident that the bloc could defeat a Soviet attack why would they be so desperate to get British aid? If so there is no purpose at all in Britain sending forces to the continent. Much better to use what forces Britain has left for higher priority in helping its allies.
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crackpot
Petty Officer 1st Class
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Post by crackpot on Nov 8, 2018 21:10:53 GMT
Brutal. France won’t stand for European neutrality being so blatantly violated. Sweden must absolutely be the last straw.
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Nov 8, 2018 21:13:46 GMT
Brutal. France won’t stand for European neutrality being so blatantly violated. Sweden must absolutely be the last straw. We will have to wait and see.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 8, 2018 21:58:09 GMT
Brutal. France won’t stand for European neutrality being so blatantly violated. Sweden must absolutely be the last straw.
They have done for the last 4-5 months. Fortunately it sounds like their finally going to do something which will take the pressure off the allies somewhat.
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Dan
Warrant Officer
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Post by Dan on Nov 9, 2018 5:58:02 GMT
Sweden was, and still is, very well set up to defend itself from Soviet/Russian attack from the east across Finland, they learned a lot from the Winter War, however the Soviets have negated that in two ways:
Amphibious Assault Stopping
The Swedish Centurions, should devastate the PT-76 Tanks the Soviets have brought if they go on the offensive, IF they can keep Soviet airpower at bay.
Still, while it's not many men, (maybe a few hundred thousand), every man stationed in Sweden is one that won't be sent to America or China.
I wonder if those Soviet troops know how lucky they are?
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Post by redrobin65 on Nov 9, 2018 10:33:24 GMT
I wonder if the Soviets will attack central Sweden from Norway. Then again, the Baltic Fleet got out anyways.
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