James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Nov 6, 2018 20:13:33 GMT
My ideas on an ending are still up in the air but it will be a combination of suggestions made! They need those convoys. Their 'allies' are tapped out and so the reinforcement & resupply has to get through. With Western Europe, when mobilised France/WG/Italy/NE/BEL can put a lot into the battle and the Soviets have weakened their set-up. Still, there is a massive force there which could go very far forward. The missing Americans, more than the Brits and Canadians, brought so much to the table when it came to NATO. Britain has its army and a strong one now with all its additions but the RAF and RN have been hurt. The end shall come eventually. Every modern war we have seen has witnessed the massive strain on logisitics and armaments. The Soviets are manufacturing stuff but need to get it overseas to North America and China through enemy forces and also radioactive holes too. Not easy. The Sweden and Gibraltar fights, done simultaneously, will be very costly. redrobin65 did a list a while back of all of the MANY theatres of operation for the Soviets: I am sure it was past twelve! Thank you kindy, Admiral. Oh, what they've lost in China was east of the Urals based forces but by now the western forces are arriving and China is a bloodbath still. The Soviets do have a huge force but moving it overseas is the issue. Special forces, paratroopers, naval infantry and air power has all been committed on a massive scale but there are all those tanks/infantry/artillery which would tear through an enemy in a slow but effective fighting steamroller if used. Sweden, more than anything else, will be the issue which turns over the Western Europeans as it is too much. We'll see how that goes in the coming weeks.
James
OK thanks on clarifying as I remembered you saying the forces in and I thought heading for China were from east of the Urals but obviously there's more being sent.
I was thinking in terms of those massive reserves being used in Europe if the neutral bloc suddenly changed direction. That it would be a huge mess and extremely costly for both sides. Which is why I'm uncertain about them doing a 180 if the Soviets attack Sweden. Yes the Swedes will go down but they will drain the Soviets further and the bloc losses nothing by stepping in while doing so exposes at least its eastern lands to attack. Especially think the W Germans would be having kittens about that - 'you want us to stick our neck into that noose, especially when we're on the front line!' The bloc has been quite happy sitting on the sideline while the Soviets wear themselves down and if the Soviets get some of their force out of the Baltic they still have to get them past Britain, with its natural geographical advantage. Especially if the Soviets are taking heavy losses attempting to force Gibraltar I can't see their motive for them suddenly deciding to become belligerents? Want them to as it would take a lot of heat off the European allies and give them a vital breather but it runs against pretty much everything the bloc has done since ducking out of NATO.
Steve
It's been done in stages and I have an ORBAT but that it isn't complete. The force is huge though, from both sides of the Urals. As I have said before, there still remains a big force ready for Europe. It is just a matter of what it could do past an opening massive attack I'm planning to cover the Sweden thing tomorrow. You are correct about West Germany and it is them holding Western Europe back. Things will come to a head though as Sweden and simultaneously the Med. develop. I have yet to figure it all out perfectly but all answers shall come is all I can say.
Well that last line is a bit worrying  . Unless its the classic case in dictatorships, especially where the leadership and reality are some way from each other where success is being reported to save someone's neck. With all the effort 40% estimated losses still leaves a hell of a lot. Hopefully all the attacks have also caused disruption which would delay matters further, although on the other hand its probably better for the allies if the Soviets were attacking and those raw new units, supported by experienced ones not yet committed are defending and then hit the Soviets on the counter once their lost their momentum and preferably a lot of their forces.
I presume that the blockade on use of nukes was to avoid the Soviets possibly using them somewhere else? No need for attacks on US ports as they could have been hit at sea, which would have been a lot more effective. Anything left would have been a lot easier to hunt down given the disorder the convoys would be in and the much reduced escorts and it would have saved a lot of American lives and weapons that could be very useful in the near future. Also might have been useful along with a small diplomatic message through back channels to certain national leaders "Are you sure you want to continue fighting alongside the Soviets?"
Have heard the B-52's nickname before but didn't realise where it came from.  Or if I did I'd forgotten.
I left it open because I am undecided myself. Losses have been massive for the Soviets but the US committed much too. When the fight returns to the big leagues in the US, this will matter: so too will the US have green troops. Nukes: at any time they are expected by each for the other to use against them. Glenn didn't want to use nukes on US soil because, well, it is US soil. They should have been used though. It would have changed so much. BUFF is a name I like! |
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Nov 6, 2018 20:16:30 GMT
(282)
January 1985: Florida and The Bahamas
The Raid on Mayport was quite something indeed. Soviet naval Spetsnaz undertook a hugely-complicated and dangerous mission to strike at the US Navy base in the Atlantic-facing northeastern corner of the peninsula. They operated far from home: not just the Rodina but their Caribbean bases. The numbers of men involved, the scale of the task and the daring were all similar to earlier strikes made at the very beginning of the war. For the men from the 17th Brigade (home-based in peacetime along the Soviet Black Sea coast) tasked hit to hit Mayport in a company-plus mission, it would be a raid few of them would return from.
Launched from a staging post inside neutral The Bahamas – a neutrality which the Commonwealth nation was clinging on to; one which its traditional allies were happy to see maintained for their own sake –, a ship-to-ship transfer was made near an isolated island during the early hours of the day before the raid. Bahamian military forces (such as they were) missed the transfer of men from one ship with a dubious identity to a hijacked one; so did the Americans who had an armed watch over The Bahamas. That second ship was an American-owned though Bahamian-flagged vessel, one which was plying its trade though the island nation as well far beyond including into Florida despite the ongoing war. The majority of its crew were dead and long-since thrown overboard with the few left alive soon to join them once their usefulness was up… or someone came and rescued them as they hoped they would see. It was on its way to Jacksonville on a scheduled trip, one cleared by the Americans though with innocent purposes meant to be. While sailing from The Bahamas up to the estuary off the St. John’s River, the ship was overflown twice by the Americans. First, there was a P-3 Orion operated by the US Navy and then closer to Florida came Virginia Air National Guard attack-fighters assigned to the Tenth US Air Force, a pair of A-7 Corsairs, which made a lower flyby while bristling with weapons. Radio messages were exchanged including authentication codes to say that there was no duress that the crew was under. Visual inspection was made from above too with the ship recognised for what it was. Due to the arrival time late in the evening, the ship was instructed to wait out at sea. Its destination was the marine terminal on Blount Island, just up the estuary, but that meant passing by the naval anchorages first. No civilian ship of foreign registry was doing that in the darkness no matter what, not after all the hits that the United States had taken in this war. Armed coastguard personnel (since the war started, the US Coastguard was acting as part of the US Navy) came aboard and were satisfied with what they saw: they missed so much, duped and distracted. The inspectors left behind the ship which waited alongside two others to go into the Port of Jacksonville in the morning. It stayed where it was, watched but not watched enough. Over a hundred commandos – who’d been crammed aboard and hidden remarkably well when the Coastguard had been inside – did depart, leaving their mothership in the wee hours of the morning and went into action.
The raid was detected at the last minute. One of the raiders made an error and caused he and a comrade to be spotted by US Navy security troops. The smallest of things was all that it took for the naval base to come alive with defensive fire against intruders coming out of the water wearing scuba gear and carrying satchel charges. There were lots of them, these raiders, spotted all over the place once the firing started. None of them had been ready to strike yet and the plan to blast apart the security command post and the communications station had yet to be realised. When the detection was made, the rest of them men should have withdrawn. They had orders to press home their attack if detected early, if past the point that the planners deemed the ‘point of no return’. The defenders, the security personnel from a wartime raised force, were underrated and their morale thought to be low. In comparison, the dispatched Spetsnaz team was thought by those who sent them to be invincible on the attack against what was regarded as an isolated and ill-defended strategic outpost. Soviet hubris cost the raiders deal. The US Navy would defend their base with rifles, machine guns, grenades and their bare hands. It came to that, where it was hand-to-hand fighting, too.
When it was all said and done with the aborted raid over with, Mayport naval base was lit with fires and there were many bodies everywhere. The former consisted of buildings and a couple of very small vessels (tugboats and a patrol boat which took a RPG hit when firing upon men on the shore): none of the warships in harbour, including the training carrier USS Lexington here after its escape from the Gulf of Mexico, had any real damage done to them. The latter were the majority of the Spetsnaz and plenty of US Navy personnel alongside them. Medical teams moved among them in the darkness, looking for those alive who had their injuries attended to first while others worried about nationality. A couple of the raiders had fled against orders when the attack had gone as wrong as it did and headed back for the submersibles to ride along with underwater back to the ship in the estuary. They got back there to find it underway, moving without running lights and heading out to sea. These men were left behind yet they wouldn’t have had much luck aboard that ship. Running was the worst thing that could have been done by those aboard the ship. They should have abandoned it and made it to one of the identified coastal rally points to link up with any surviving Spetsnaz. The moving ship was just one big fat target for the US Navy to engage and its guilt as clear as day. When the sun came up, a trio of A-4 Skyhawk flying from NAS Jacksonville made a gun and rocket attack upon it to set it alight and stop its progress. The ship burnt, marking itself as a target perfectly for the P-3 which came late to the party but gave the gift of a Harpoon missile dead-on target against a defenceless vessel. That was the end of the Spetsnaz and their mothership though unfortunately the surviving innocent crewmen aboard as well.
Soviet commando action in Florida, staged through the territory of The Bahamas, didn’t drag that small country into the war. It could have, maybe in the opinion of some it should have too. Yet, The Bahamas would stay neutral and its people not know the horrors of the war that was affecting others. The government in Nassau were happy to keep out of the war and the superpowers, those who would make the decision in reality over what The Bahamas wanted, were of mind to do the same. The Americans and the Allies – particularly the British and the Canadians –, wanted neutrality there and so did the Soviets. All were taking advantage of that neutrality and the country entering the war couldn’t help either. If one side or the other based forces there, the other would have to stretch to cover that. Shipping and international financial links were being used by each through the country with the others monitored by espionage efforts operating out of the country. It was in no one’s interests for The Bahamas to go to war.
Days after the Raid on Mayport, the Soviet staging base was attacked by the Royal Bahamas Defence Force (RBDF). A maritime force though with marines – well… sort of marines; armed men operating from ships –, the RBDF had a difficult time striking where they did because they were so weak in terms of equipment and training. Unofficial American assistance was given in everything to do with the arrival of armed men and gunboats at the little island where US intelligence had tracked the passage of that ship from and spotted via satellite overheads a facility. Gunfire was returned and one of the RBDF boats was sunk. Eight of their men would be killed as well before finally return fire ceased. American aircraft – those national guard A-7s – were circling nearby and ready to strike though to do so would be a political decision and what was going on was being monitored from Raven Rock directly. Only with Chuck Robb’s say so would direct American intervention occur and his president had told him that was a last resort if the RBDF failed. They succeed in their mission though, storming that Soviet base. The bodies of two men killed by machine gun fire were found. There was no sign of anyone else and the base had been stripped out of equipment and anything of value beforehand. For the losses taken, the RBDF wouldn’t consider it a success. Their government would though for the action taken from its soil had been answered with firm force used. The Americans too would consider this to be something that needed to be done. Here a small country had stood up for itself and reasserted its sovereignty. If only other countries worldwide would do the same…
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Post by lukedalton on Nov 6, 2018 23:31:57 GMT
IMVHO more a small country that fear that the big neighbourgh will level the island to destroy the soviet base; while for the USA postwar this war will be one of their building myth like the Great Patriottic war for the URSS with the valiant american free man fighting the ugly red invader; for the rest of the world it will be more a grey vs grey affair like WWI.
Personally i go that the damage at the convoy has been much less of what the american believe, substantatial yes but not at the 40% level maybe 25-30% with the analyst and airmen being both optimistic and not capable to get better image due to the strong defence.
Regarding the nuclear weapon use, well the general problem is that if the american use and the soviet use them as retaliation (assured thing), all the explosion will happen in american territory and Glenn probably thing that destroying his country (or at least risk it)to win a war is no victory.
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lordroel
Administrator
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Post by lordroel on Nov 7, 2018 4:15:48 GMT
(282)January 1985: Florida and The Bahamas The Raid on Mayport was quite something indeed. Soviet naval Spetsnaz undertook a hugely-complicated and dangerous mission to strike at the US Navy base in the Atlantic-facing northeastern corner of the peninsula. They operated far from home: not just the Rodina but their Caribbean bases. The numbers of men involved, the scale of the task and the daring were all similar to earlier strikes made at the very beginning of the war. For the men from the 17th Brigade (home-based in peacetime along the Soviet Black Sea coast) tasked hit to hit Mayport in a company-plus mission, it would be a raid few of them would return from. Launched from a staging post inside neutral The Bahamas – a neutrality which the Commonwealth nation was clinging on to; one which its traditional allies were happy to see maintained for their own sake –, a ship-to-ship transfer was made near an isolated island during the early hours of the day before the raid. Bahamian military forces (such as they were) missed the transfer of men from one ship with a dubious identity to a hijacked one; so did the Americans who had an armed watch over The Bahamas. That second ship was an American-owned though Bahamian-flagged vessel, one which was plying its trade though the island nation as well far beyond including into Florida despite the ongoing war. The majority of its crew were dead and long-since thrown overboard with the few left alive soon to join them once their usefulness was up… or someone came and rescued them as they hoped they would see. It was on its way to Jacksonville on a scheduled trip, one cleared by the Americans though with innocent purposes meant to be. While sailing from The Bahamas up to the estuary off the St. John’s River, the ship was overflown twice by the Americans. First, there was a P-3 Orion operated by the US Navy and then closer to Florida came Virginia Air National Guard attack-fighters assigned to the Tenth US Air Force, a pair of A-7 Corsairs, which made a lower flyby while bristling with weapons. Radio messages were exchanged including authentication codes to say that there was no duress that the crew was under. Visual inspection was made from above too with the ship recognised for what it was. Due to the arrival time late in the evening, the ship was instructed to wait out at sea. Its destination was the marine terminal on Blount Island, just up the estuary, but that meant passing by the naval anchorages first. No civilian ship of foreign registry was doing that in the darkness no matter what, not after all the hits that the United States had taken in this war. Armed coastguard personnel (since the war started, the US Coastguard was acting as part of the US Navy) came aboard and were satisfied with what they saw: they missed so much, duped and distracted. The inspectors left behind the ship which waited alongside two others to go into the Port of Jacksonville in the morning. It stayed where it was, watched but not watched enough. Over a hundred commandos – who’d been crammed aboard and hidden remarkably well when the Coastguard had been inside – did depart, leaving their mothership in the wee hours of the morning and went into action. The raid was detected at the last minute. One of the raiders made an error and caused he and a comrade to be spotted by US Navy security troops. The smallest of things was all that it took for the naval base to come alive with defensive fire against intruders coming out of the water wearing scuba gear and carrying satchel charges. There were lots of them, these raiders, spotted all over the place once the firing started. None of them had been ready to strike yet and the plan to blast apart the security command post and the communications station had yet to be realised. When the detection was made, the rest of them men should have withdrawn. They had orders to press home their attack if detected early, if past the point that the planners deemed the ‘point of no return’. The defenders, the security personnel from a wartime raised force, were underrated and their morale thought to be low. In comparison, the dispatched Spetsnaz team was thought by those who sent them to be invincible on the attack against what was regarded as an isolated and ill-defended strategic outpost. Soviet hubris cost the raiders deal. The US Navy would defend their base with rifles, machine guns, grenades and their bare hands. It came to that, where it was hand-to-hand fighting, too. When it was all said and done with the aborted raid over with, Mayport naval base was lit with fires and there were many bodies everywhere. The former consisted of buildings and a couple of very small vessels (tugboats and a patrol boat which took a RPG hit when firing upon men on the shore): none of the warships in harbour, including the training carrier USS Lexington here after its escape from the Gulf of Mexico, had any real damage done to them. The latter were the majority of the Spetsnaz and plenty of US Navy personnel alongside them. Medical teams moved among them in the darkness, looking for those alive who had their injuries attended to first while others worried about nationality. A couple of the raiders had fled against orders when the attack had gone as wrong as it did and headed back for the submersibles to ride along with underwater back to the ship in the estuary. They got back there to find it underway, moving without running lights and heading out to sea. These men were left behind yet they wouldn’t have had much luck aboard that ship. Running was the worst thing that could have been done by those aboard the ship. They should have abandoned it and made it to one of the identified coastal rally points to link up with any surviving Spetsnaz. The moving ship was just one big fat target for the US Navy to engage and its guilt as clear as day. When the sun came up, a trio of A-4 Skyhawk flying from NAS Jacksonville made a gun and rocket attack upon it to set it alight and stop its progress. The ship burnt, marking itself as a target perfectly for the P-3 which came late to the party but gave the gift of a Harpoon missile dead-on target against a defenceless vessel. That was the end of the Spetsnaz and their mothership though unfortunately the surviving innocent crewmen aboard as well. Soviet commando action in Florida, staged through the territory of The Bahamas, didn’t drag that small country into the war. It could have, maybe in the opinion of some it should have too. Yet, The Bahamas would stay neutral and its people not know the horrors of the war that was affecting others. The government in Nassau were happy to keep out of the war and the superpowers, those who would make the decision in reality over what The Bahamas wanted, were of mind to do the same. The Americans and the Allies – particularly the British and the Canadians –, wanted neutrality there and so did the Soviets. All were taking advantage of that neutrality and the country entering the war couldn’t help either. If one side or the other based forces there, the other would have to stretch to cover that. Shipping and international financial links were being used by each through the country with the others monitored by espionage efforts operating out of the country. It was in no one’s interests for The Bahamas to go to war. Days after the Raid on Mayport, the Soviet staging base was attacked by the Royal Bahamas Defence Force (RBDF). A maritime force though with marines – well… sort of marines; armed men operating from ships –, the RBDF had a difficult time striking where they did because they were so weak in terms of equipment and training. Unofficial American assistance was given in everything to do with the arrival of armed men and gunboats at the little island where US intelligence had tracked the passage of that ship from and spotted via satellite overheads a facility. Gunfire was returned and one of the RBDF boats was sunk. Eight of their men would be killed as well before finally return fire ceased. American aircraft – those national guard A-7s – were circling nearby and ready to strike though to do so would be a political decision and what was going on was being monitored from Raven Rock directly. Only with Chuck Robb’s say so would direct American intervention occur and his president had told him that was a last resort if the RBDF failed. They succeed in their mission though, storming that Soviet base. The bodies of two men killed by machine gun fire were found. There was no sign of anyone else and the base had been stripped out of equipment and anything of value beforehand. For the losses taken, the RBDF wouldn’t consider it a success. Their government would though for the action taken from its soil had been answered with firm force used. The Americans too would consider this to be something that needed to be done. Here a small country had stood up for itself and reasserted its sovereignty. If only other countries worldwide would do the same… Nice update James, also nice to see the RBDF having won a battle, even if it is a symbolic one. |
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Dan
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Post by Dan on Nov 7, 2018 7:57:26 GMT
I think that will be a source of pride for the RBDF, even if the truth is somewhat less glamorous, it's still a symbol.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 7, 2018 9:49:57 GMT
IMVHO more a small country that fear that the big neighbourgh will level the island to destroy the soviet base; while for the USA postwar this war will be one of their building myth like the Great Patriottic war for the URSS with the valiant american free man fighting the ugly red invader; for the rest of the world it will be more a grey vs grey affair like WWI. Personally i go that the damage at the convoy has been much less of what the american believe, substantatial yes but not at the 40% level maybe 25-30% with the analyst and airmen being both optimistic and not capable to get better image due to the strong defence. Regarding the nuclear weapon use, well the general problem is that if the american use and the soviet use them as retaliation (assured thing), all the explosion will happen in american territory and Glenn probably thing that destroying his country (or at least risk it)to win a war is no victory.
It might be a risk using nukes at sea but doing so with a warning that any use against US or allied territory will be responded with in kind is very likely to deter any Soviet attack at land. Glenn could have cited his responses to the initial Soviet nuclear strikes. A possibility might be a warning shot ahead of the 1st convoy with an order to turn back. Your got a major nuclear power seeking to prevent a further invasion of its homeland its a logical think, else what use are nuclear weapons? Given how stretched the Soviets have been already it would be bloody stupid for their leadership to invite further attacks on their own cities and key military targets.
Such a move would almost certain save a hell of a lot of American lives, both in terms of those lost in opposing the convoys and further fighting in the US. You might even get a coup against Vorotnikov o since it would be pretty obvious that their longer term aim of winning some sort of victory within the US will have failed with the destruction of those two convoys.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Nov 7, 2018 9:54:39 GMT
I think that will be a source of pride for the RBDF, even if the truth is somewhat less glamorous, it's still a symbol.
Very true and it means their likely to be viewed more favourable than some of the other areas which have been occupied post-war. Must admit I hadn't realised the islands hadn't been occupied like the rest of the allied Caribbean - other than Puerto Rico - I think. It would have seemed to have been a location where some of those Cuban raids could have gone, or possibly from there to threaten other parts of Florida and hence tie down US forces.
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Post by eurowatch on Nov 7, 2018 19:25:12 GMT
(282)January 1985: Florida and The Bahamas The Raid on Mayport was quite something indeed. Soviet naval Spetsnaz undertook a hugely-complicated and dangerous mission to strike at the US Navy base in the Atlantic-facing northeastern corner of the peninsula. They operated far from home: not just the Rodina but their Caribbean bases. The numbers of men involved, the scale of the task and the daring were all similar to earlier strikes made at the very beginning of the war. For the men from the 17th Brigade (home-based in peacetime along the Soviet Black Sea coast) tasked hit to hit Mayport in a company-plus mission, it would be a raid few of them would return from. Launched from a staging post inside neutral The Bahamas – a neutrality which the Commonwealth nation was clinging on to; one which its traditional allies were happy to see maintained for their own sake –, a ship-to-ship transfer was made near an isolated island during the early hours of the day before the raid. Bahamian military forces (such as they were) missed the transfer of men from one ship with a dubious identity to a hijacked one; so did the Americans who had an armed watch over The Bahamas. That second ship was an American-owned though Bahamian-flagged vessel, one which was plying its trade though the island nation as well far beyond including into Florida despite the ongoing war. The majority of its crew were dead and long-since thrown overboard with the few left alive soon to join them once their usefulness was up… or someone came and rescued them as they hoped they would see. It was on its way to Jacksonville on a scheduled trip, one cleared by the Americans though with innocent purposes meant to be. While sailing from The Bahamas up to the estuary off the St. John’s River, the ship was overflown twice by the Americans. First, there was a P-3 Orion operated by the US Navy and then closer to Florida came Virginia Air National Guard attack-fighters assigned to the Tenth US Air Force, a pair of A-7 Corsairs, which made a lower flyby while bristling with weapons. Radio messages were exchanged including authentication codes to say that there was no duress that the crew was under. Visual inspection was made from above too with the ship recognised for what it was. Due to the arrival time late in the evening, the ship was instructed to wait out at sea. Its destination was the marine terminal on Blount Island, just up the estuary, but that meant passing by the naval anchorages first. No civilian ship of foreign registry was doing that in the darkness no matter what, not after all the hits that the United States had taken in this war. Armed coastguard personnel (since the war started, the US Coastguard was acting as part of the US Navy) came aboard and were satisfied with what they saw: they missed so much, duped and distracted. The inspectors left behind the ship which waited alongside two others to go into the Port of Jacksonville in the morning. It stayed where it was, watched but not watched enough. Over a hundred commandos – who’d been crammed aboard and hidden remarkably well when the Coastguard had been inside – did depart, leaving their mothership in the wee hours of the morning and went into action. The raid was detected at the last minute. One of the raiders made an error and caused he and a comrade to be spotted by US Navy security troops. The smallest of things was all that it took for the naval base to come alive with defensive fire against intruders coming out of the water wearing scuba gear and carrying satchel charges. There were lots of them, these raiders, spotted all over the place once the firing started. None of them had been ready to strike yet and the plan to blast apart the security command post and the communications station had yet to be realised. When the detection was made, the rest of them men should have withdrawn. They had orders to press home their attack if detected early, if past the point that the planners deemed the ‘point of no return’. The defenders, the security personnel from a wartime raised force, were underrated and their morale thought to be low. In comparison, the dispatched Spetsnaz team was thought by those who sent them to be invincible on the attack against what was regarded as an isolated and ill-defended strategic outpost. Soviet hubris cost the raiders deal. The US Navy would defend their base with rifles, machine guns, grenades and their bare hands. It came to that, where it was hand-to-hand fighting, too. When it was all said and done with the aborted raid over with, Mayport naval base was lit with fires and there were many bodies everywhere. The former consisted of buildings and a couple of very small vessels (tugboats and a patrol boat which took a RPG hit when firing upon men on the shore): none of the warships in harbour, including the training carrier USS Lexington here after its escape from the Gulf of Mexico, had any real damage done to them. The latter were the majority of the Spetsnaz and plenty of US Navy personnel alongside them. Medical teams moved among them in the darkness, looking for those alive who had their injuries attended to first while others worried about nationality. A couple of the raiders had fled against orders when the attack had gone as wrong as it did and headed back for the submersibles to ride along with underwater back to the ship in the estuary. They got back there to find it underway, moving without running lights and heading out to sea. These men were left behind yet they wouldn’t have had much luck aboard that ship. Running was the worst thing that could have been done by those aboard the ship. They should have abandoned it and made it to one of the identified coastal rally points to link up with any surviving Spetsnaz. The moving ship was just one big fat target for the US Navy to engage and its guilt as clear as day. When the sun came up, a trio of A-4 Skyhawk flying from NAS Jacksonville made a gun and rocket attack upon it to set it alight and stop its progress. The ship burnt, marking itself as a target perfectly for the P-3 which came late to the party but gave the gift of a Harpoon missile dead-on target against a defenceless vessel. That was the end of the Spetsnaz and their mothership though unfortunately the surviving innocent crewmen aboard as well. Soviet commando action in Florida, staged through the territory of The Bahamas, didn’t drag that small country into the war. It could have, maybe in the opinion of some it should have too. Yet, The Bahamas would stay neutral and its people not know the horrors of the war that was affecting others. The government in Nassau were happy to keep out of the war and the superpowers, those who would make the decision in reality over what The Bahamas wanted, were of mind to do the same. The Americans and the Allies – particularly the British and the Canadians –, wanted neutrality there and so did the Soviets. All were taking advantage of that neutrality and the country entering the war couldn’t help either. If one side or the other based forces there, the other would have to stretch to cover that. Shipping and international financial links were being used by each through the country with the others monitored by espionage efforts operating out of the country. It was in no one’s interests for The Bahamas to go to war. Days after the Raid on Mayport, the Soviet staging base was attacked by the Royal Bahamas Defence Force (RBDF). A maritime force though with marines – well… sort of marines; armed men operating from ships –, the RBDF had a difficult time striking where they did because they were so weak in terms of equipment and training. Unofficial American assistance was given in everything to do with the arrival of armed men and gunboats at the little island where US intelligence had tracked the passage of that ship from and spotted via satellite overheads a facility. Gunfire was returned and one of the RBDF boats was sunk. Eight of their men would be killed as well before finally return fire ceased. American aircraft – those national guard A-7s – were circling nearby and ready to strike though to do so would be a political decision and what was going on was being monitored from Raven Rock directly. Only with Chuck Robb’s say so would direct American intervention occur and his president had told him that was a last resort if the RBDF failed. They succeed in their mission though, storming that Soviet base. The bodies of two men killed by machine gun fire were found. There was no sign of anyone else and the base had been stripped out of equipment and anything of value beforehand. For the losses taken, the RBDF wouldn’t consider it a success. Their government would though for the action taken from its soil had been answered with firm force used. The Americans too would consider this to be something that needed to be done. Here a small country had stood up for itself and reasserted its sovereignty. If only other countries worldwide would do the same… Lexington 1, Soviet Union 0 |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 7, 2018 19:29:53 GMT
(282)January 1985: Florida and The Bahamas The Raid on Mayport was quite something indeed. Soviet naval Spetsnaz undertook a hugely-complicated and dangerous mission to strike at the US Navy base in the Atlantic-facing northeastern corner of the peninsula. They operated far from home: not just the Rodina but their Caribbean bases. The numbers of men involved, the scale of the task and the daring were all similar to earlier strikes made at the very beginning of the war. For the men from the 17th Brigade (home-based in peacetime along the Soviet Black Sea coast) tasked hit to hit Mayport in a company-plus mission, it would be a raid few of them would return from. Launched from a staging post inside neutral The Bahamas – a neutrality which the Commonwealth nation was clinging on to; one which its traditional allies were happy to see maintained for their own sake –, a ship-to-ship transfer was made near an isolated island during the early hours of the day before the raid. Bahamian military forces (such as they were) missed the transfer of men from one ship with a dubious identity to a hijacked one; so did the Americans who had an armed watch over The Bahamas. That second ship was an American-owned though Bahamian-flagged vessel, one which was plying its trade though the island nation as well far beyond including into Florida despite the ongoing war. The majority of its crew were dead and long-since thrown overboard with the few left alive soon to join them once their usefulness was up… or someone came and rescued them as they hoped they would see. It was on its way to Jacksonville on a scheduled trip, one cleared by the Americans though with innocent purposes meant to be. While sailing from The Bahamas up to the estuary off the St. John’s River, the ship was overflown twice by the Americans. First, there was a P-3 Orion operated by the US Navy and then closer to Florida came Virginia Air National Guard attack-fighters assigned to the Tenth US Air Force, a pair of A-7 Corsairs, which made a lower flyby while bristling with weapons. Radio messages were exchanged including authentication codes to say that there was no duress that the crew was under. Visual inspection was made from above too with the ship recognised for what it was. Due to the arrival time late in the evening, the ship was instructed to wait out at sea. Its destination was the marine terminal on Blount Island, just up the estuary, but that meant passing by the naval anchorages first. No civilian ship of foreign registry was doing that in the darkness no matter what, not after all the hits that the United States had taken in this war. Armed coastguard personnel (since the war started, the US Coastguard was acting as part of the US Navy) came aboard and were satisfied with what they saw: they missed so much, duped and distracted. The inspectors left behind the ship which waited alongside two others to go into the Port of Jacksonville in the morning. It stayed where it was, watched but not watched enough. Over a hundred commandos – who’d been crammed aboard and hidden remarkably well when the Coastguard had been inside – did depart, leaving their mothership in the wee hours of the morning and went into action. The raid was detected at the last minute. One of the raiders made an error and caused he and a comrade to be spotted by US Navy security troops. The smallest of things was all that it took for the naval base to come alive with defensive fire against intruders coming out of the water wearing scuba gear and carrying satchel charges. There were lots of them, these raiders, spotted all over the place once the firing started. None of them had been ready to strike yet and the plan to blast apart the security command post and the communications station had yet to be realised. When the detection was made, the rest of them men should have withdrawn. They had orders to press home their attack if detected early, if past the point that the planners deemed the ‘point of no return’. The defenders, the security personnel from a wartime raised force, were underrated and their morale thought to be low. In comparison, the dispatched Spetsnaz team was thought by those who sent them to be invincible on the attack against what was regarded as an isolated and ill-defended strategic outpost. Soviet hubris cost the raiders deal. The US Navy would defend their base with rifles, machine guns, grenades and their bare hands. It came to that, where it was hand-to-hand fighting, too. hen it was all said and done with the aborted raid over with, Mayport naval base was lit with fires and there were many bodies everywhere. The former consisted of buildings and a couple of very small vessels (tugboats and a patrol boat which took a RPG hit when firing upon men on the shore): none of the warships in harbour, including the training carrier USS Lexington here after its escape from the Gulf of Mexico, had any real damage done to them. The latter were the majority of the Spetsnaz and plenty of US Navy personnel alongside them. Medical teams moved among them in the darkness, looking for those alive who had their injuries attended to first while others worried about nationality. A couple of the raiders had fled against orders when the attack had gone as wrong as it did and headed back for the submersibles to ride along with underwater back to the ship in the estuary. They got back there to find it underway, moving without running lights and heading out to sea. These men were left behind yet they wouldn’t have had much luck aboard that ship. Running was the worst thing that could have been done by those aboard the ship. They should have abandoned it and made it to one of the identified coastal rally points to link up with any surviving Spetsnaz. The moving ship was just one big fat target for the US Navy to engage and its guilt as clear as day. When the sun came up, a trio of A-4 Skyhawk flying from NAS Jacksonville made a gun and rocket attack upon it to set it alight and stop its progress. The ship burnt, marking itself as a target perfectly for the P-3 which came late to the party but gave the gift of a Harpoon missile dead-on target against a defenceless vessel. That was the end of the Spetsnaz and their mothership though unfortunately the surviving innocent crewmen aboard as well. Raid on St Nazair 2.0. |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 7, 2018 19:55:43 GMT
IMVHO more a small country that fear that the big neighbourgh will level the island to destroy the soviet base; while for the USA postwar this war will be one of their building myth like the Great Patriottic war for the URSS with the valiant american free man fighting the ugly red invader; for the rest of the world it will be more a grey vs grey affair like WWI. Personally i go that the damage at the convoy has been much less of what the american believe, substantatial yes but not at the 40% level maybe 25-30% with the analyst and airmen being both optimistic and not capable to get better image due to the strong defence. Regarding the nuclear weapon use, well the general problem is that if the american use and the soviet use them as retaliation (assured thing), all the explosion will happen in american territory and Glenn probably thing that destroying his country (or at least risk it)to win a war is no victory. Those American jets weren't circling for nothing, yes. Either the Bahamas does it, or they, plus as much air power as the US could behind the first aircraft, do the job instead. We'll see where I go with the damage done and how it works out. Even if it was that high, the 60% is still a lot. What national leader really would want to blow nuclear holes in their own country? In someone else's? Sure, but not your own. The same issue as you sketch occurred with chemicals and the Americans regretted that mess as it killed so many civilians. Nice update James, also nice to see the RBDF having won a battle, even if it is a symbolic one. Thanks. Yep, symbolic it is though sometimes symbolism can count much. I think that will be a source of pride for the RBDF, even if the truth is somewhat less glamorous, it's still a symbol. "We took on and beat the Soviets!" "Nope, two guys on their own, surrounded and outgunned, roughed you up and killed eight of yours, and sunk your ship, mate."
It might be a risk using nukes at sea but doing so with a warning that any use against US or allied territory will be responded with in kind is very likely to deter any Soviet attack at land. Glenn could have cited his responses to the initial Soviet nuclear strikes. A possibility might be a warning shot ahead of the 1st convoy with an order to turn back. Your got a major nuclear power seeking to prevent a further invasion of its homeland its a logical think, else what use are nuclear weapons? Given how stretched the Soviets have been already it would be bloody stupid for their leadership to invite further attacks on their own cities and key military targets.
Such a move would almost certain save a hell of a lot of American lives, both in terms of those lost in opposing the convoys and further fighting in the US. You might even get a coup against Vorotnikov o since it would be pretty obvious that their longer term aim of winning some sort of victory within the US will have failed with the destruction of those two convoys.
You have a valid point on the nukes. I don't disagree with it. But, that wasn't done at the start and it has been a case through the story of lost chances when it comes to them. My thinking on this remains that they have been used and effects seen. None of the horrors of nuclear war are theories anymore: now it has been witnessed. That has horrified and frightened so many.
Very true and it means their likely to be viewed more favourable than some of the other areas which have been occupied post-war. Must admit I hadn't realised the islands hadn't been occupied like the rest of the allied Caribbean - other than Puerto Rico - I think. It would have seemed to have been a location where some of those Cuban raids could have gone, or possibly from there to threaten other parts of Florida and hence tie down US forces.
Cuban activity in the Caribbean took the American & British islands apart from Puerto Rico. They also gobbled up most of the independent island nations away to the east, facing the Atlantic. French and Dutch islands were left alone and so too the most-populous nations such as Jamaica, Haiti and the Dominician Republic. Left alone were Dominica - between Guadeloupe and Martinique - and Trinidad & Tobago too. To be honest, early in the story I forgot about the Bahamas. Then I made use of their neutrality rather than add them in because I thought it would be interesting to have a neutral there. As the story comes towards an eventual end, The Bahamas will get even more of a role. Lexington 1, Soviet Union 0 Now what to do with such a ship though? That was generally the idea though this failed terribly! |
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 7, 2018 19:57:28 GMT
(283a)
January 1985: Sweden
A couple of days before the deadline for Sweden to accede to Soviet demands, the defence attaché at the embassy in Moscow was surreptitiously passed a piece of paper by a foreign ministry official who he’d long known had been trying to ‘work’ him. It contained a typed list of cities and towns across Sweden, noted beside each was a number in kilotons. Hand-written below, scrawled in Swedish, was a plea that this be passed to the diplomat’s prime minister and for him to save ‘poor Sweden’ from this. The GRU and KGB had done better work elsewhere with similar things: a prime example being the fear that they had managed to put into the West Germans of a nuclear attack in wartime, helping to get the country to go neutral. This effort wasn’t very effective. Clumsy, it was called afterwards by the Swedes, and when other intelligence agencies worldwide found out it caused them to consider that maybe there was something going seriously wrong with the Soviet intelligence organs if they thought that approach might work. However, another school of thought on that issue would have to be that maybe it was designed to fail here. The world of espionage can be a world of mirrors and double & triple bluffs. Working it all out, discovering the big secret, would only lead to more.
Regardless of that threat ill-disguised as not what it was, Olaf Palme didn’t back down. The Swedish prime minister wouldn’t do what the Soviets wanted and allow his country to be walked over. He knew where it would all lead and wouldn’t open the door for the Soviets to abuse Swedish neutrality with a view to ultimately stripping his country of its sovereignty and freedoms. At his direction, Swedish diplomats and intelligence officials in several other countries – in Western Europe in particular though also in Canada and Japan; not the United States or Britain though – made their foreign counterparts aware of this. This was what they were dealing with: a country threatening to make nuclear attacks on their cities and saying which ones and what strength of the attack upon each would be. There wasn’t as much shock in reaction to this as would be expected if this had come out of the blue. Yes, it was an outrage, everyone could agree on that, but this was the Soviet Union doing this, a country in the middle of a war of world domination who had attacked other country’s cities already with nuclear weapons and not just threatened to do so. Palme didn’t just have this information passed on for the sake of it. It was part of an ongoing effort being made since the Soviets had made their demands where Palme was trying to gain support from others in his stance of facing down Moscow’s demands. The stance was noted and admired. It was recognised as something that benefitted those countries because a Swedish withdrawal from their stated position would damage many nations in the short- and long-term.
Nonetheless, throughout the war, before Moscow turned its attention to Sweden, Palme hadn’t been making friends with his previous actions and had antagonised many other leaders. Staying out of the war wasn’t the issue. It was how Sweden – at his direction, complete with his public statements – had acted while neutral. Towards the Allies, including little Norway which neighboured Sweden, Palme had been near-hostile to them. He did so to keep Sweden neutral and the Soviets at bay yet both Norwegian and British aircraft had been attacked in Swedish airspace… Swedish interceptors had downed Soviet aircraft too yet that was another issue. American and British intelligence activities were forcefully brought to a stop from taking place on Swedish soil and many intelligence officials covered as diplomats expelled from the country for ‘conduct unbecoming their diplomatic status’. The same was done with Soviet spies/diplomats too and in effect saved many lives – foreign and Swedish – but, as before, it was the manner which it was done which upset the Allies. They naturally thought of their own needs and weren’t that willing to listen to Palme’s lectures on the proud and steadfast history of Swedish neutrality. He went to New York and at the UN, Plame criticised Allied intimidation of other neutral countries into doing their bidding. When he’d spoken after the outbreak of war at how the pre-war behaviour of the countries in the Allies, their military alliances and their apparent ‘aggressive behaviour’, this had guaranteed that while Sweden’s woes come 1985 were their troubles too, there was little sympathy. The valued what the Swedes were doing but Palme was the face of it. He personified Sweden in so many eyes: wise eyes that shouldn’t have been blinded by that. Western European countries not at war were criticised by Palme last year too. He’s spoken out against the breaches of neutrality that they had made, listing event after event. None of his accusation, especially against French actions, were lies and from a legal point of view, if one wanted to pick apart French behaviour as a neutral and not look at it in the bigger scheme of things, then Palme was dead right. France had done all that it had. West Germany, Italy and the Low Countries had all also been subject to what their governments saw as self-righteous grandstanding coming from Stockholm. However, they also noted the Swedish double-standards when it came to their joint actions undertaken with the Danes. Copenhagen had been wooed by Stockholm in an unofficial joint military alliance – Palme denied one existed – between the two of them where the Danes joined with the Swedes in declaring the Baltic Exits and in particular the Øresund a ‘protected military area’. The stretch of water between Zealand and mainland Sweden which connected the Baltic to the North Sea was full of minefields, naval patrols and military aircraft in the skies. The a-joining coastlines were full of troops and mobile defences. Military vessels of any nation apart from Denmark and Sweden were refused access. This benefitted Western Europe like it aided the Allies. There had long been the concern in Paris and Rome that eventually this would all falter and the Soviets would take advantage though that was always tomorrow, not today. They wanted to rub Palme’s smug face right in his double standards when he spoke of what he considered neutrality yet hadn’t rocked the apple cart on the issue.
Sweden was unable to bring any other nation to directly support Sweden ahead of the expiration of the Soviet deadline to open up the Baltic Exits and also Swedish airspace too. There was no real effort made, to push for overt foreign support. Palme tried to keep his country neutral at the same time as trying to win support. The deadline got closer and closer and he made other countries aware of it. They too were concerned and there was talk of acting. None could decide how though and in what manner, not with Sweden’s leader continuing to state neutrality and not willing to explore anything else officially or unofficially. That was no real excuse for some countries though. They should have acted: Swedish neutrality, even with ‘Olaf the Oaf’ – one British newspaper, one subject to government censorship and thus not stopped from doing this when it could have been, deemed him this unflattering name – at the helm, was important to them. That deadline then expired on January 9th 1985 and Sweden found itself at war with its neutrality violently ended.
(to be continued)
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Post by eurowatch on Nov 7, 2018 20:07:33 GMT
Lexington 1, Soviet Union 0 Now what to do with such a ship though? Use her as a helicopter carrier or to launch VTOL jets? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 7, 2018 20:07:39 GMT
(283a)January 1985: Sweden A couple of days before the deadline for Sweden to accede to Soviet demands, the defence attaché at the embassy in Moscow was surreptitiously passed a piece of paper by a foreign ministry official who he’d long known had been trying to ‘work’ him. It contained a typed list of cities and towns across Sweden, noted beside each was a number in kilotons. Hand-written below, scrawled in Swedish, was a plea that this be passed to the diplomat’s prime minister and for him to save ‘poor Sweden’ from this. The GRU and KGB had done better work elsewhere with similar things: a prime example being the fear that they had managed to put into the West Germans of a nuclear attack in wartime, helping to get the country to go neutral. This effort wasn’t very effective. Clumsy, it was called afterwards by the Swedes, and when other intelligence agencies worldwide found out it caused them to consider that maybe there was something going seriously wrong with the Soviet intelligence organs if they thought that approach might work. However, another school of thought on that issue would have to be that maybe it was designed to fail here. The world of espionage can be a world of mirrors and double & triple bluffs. Working it all out, discovering the big secret, would only lead to more. Regardless of that threat ill-disguised as not what it was, Olaf Palme didn’t back down. The Swedish prime minister wouldn’t do what the Soviets wanted and allow his country to be walked over. He knew where it would all lead and wouldn’t open the door for the Soviets to abuse Swedish neutrality with a view to ultimately stripping his country of its sovereignty and freedoms. At his direction, Swedish diplomats and intelligence officials in several other countries – in Western Europe in particular though also in Canada and Japan; not the United States or Britain though – made their foreign counterparts aware of this. This was what they were dealing with: a country threatening to make nuclear attacks on their cities and saying which ones and what strength of the attack upon each would be. There wasn’t as much shock in reaction to this as would be expected if this had come out of the blue. Yes, it was an outrage, everyone could agree on that, but this was the Soviet Union doing this, a country in the middle of a war of world domination who had attacked other country’s cities already with nuclear weapons and not just threatened to do so. Palme didn’t just have this information passed on for the sake of it. It was part of an ongoing effort being made since the Soviets had made their demands where Palme was trying to gain support from others in his stance of facing down Moscow’s demands. The stance was noted and admired. It was recognised as something that benefitted those countries because a Swedish withdrawal from their stated position would damage many nations in the short- and long-term. Nonetheless, throughout the war, before Moscow turned its attention to Sweden, Palme hadn’t been making friends with his previous actions and had antagonised many other leaders. Staying out of the war wasn’t the issue. It was how Sweden – at his direction, complete with his public statements – had acted while neutral. Towards the Allies, including little Norway which neighboured Sweden, Palme had been near-hostile to them. He did so to keep Sweden neutral and the Soviets at bay yet both Norwegian and British aircraft had been attacked in Swedish airspace… Swedish interceptors had downed Soviet aircraft too yet that was another issue. American and British intelligence activities were forcefully brought to a stop from taking place on Swedish soil and many intelligence officials covered as diplomats expelled from the country for ‘conduct unbecoming their diplomatic status’. The same was done with Soviet spies/diplomats too and in effect saved many lives – foreign and Swedish – but, as before, it was the manner which it was done which upset the Allies. They naturally thought of their own needs and weren’t that willing to listen to Palme’s lectures on the proud and steadfast history of Swedish neutrality. He went to New York and at the UN, Plame criticised Allied intimidation of other neutral countries into doing their bidding. When he’d spoken after the outbreak of war at how the pre-war behaviour of the countries in the Allies, their military alliances and their apparent ‘aggressive behaviour’, this had guaranteed that while Sweden’s woes come 1985 were their troubles too, there was little sympathy. The valued what the Swedes were doing but Palme was the face of it. He personified Sweden in so many eyes: wise eyes that shouldn’t have been blinded by that. Western European countries not at war were criticised by Palme last year too. He’s spoken out against the breaches of neutrality that they had made, listing event after event. None of his accusation, especially against French actions, were lies and from a legal point of view, if one wanted to pick apart French behaviour as a neutral and not look at it in the bigger scheme of things, then Palme was dead right. France had done all that it had. West Germany, Italy and the Low Countries had all also been subject to what their governments saw as self-righteous grandstanding coming from Stockholm. However, they also noted the Swedish double-standards when it came to their joint actions undertaken with the Danes. Copenhagen had been wooed by Stockholm in an unofficial joint military alliance – Palme denied one existed – between the two of them where the Danes joined with the Swedes in declaring the Baltic Exits and in particular the Øresund a ‘protected military area’. The stretch of water between Zealand and mainland Sweden which connected the Baltic to the North Sea was full of minefields, naval patrols and military aircraft in the skies. The a-joining coastlines were full of troops and mobile defences. Military vessels of any nation apart from Denmark and Sweden were refused access. This benefitted Western Europe like it aided the Allies. There had long been the concern in Paris and Rome that eventually this would all falter and the Soviets would take advantage though that was always tomorrow, not today. They wanted to rub Palme’s smug face right in his double standards when he spoke of what he considered neutrality yet hadn’t rocked the apple cart on the issue. Sweden was unable to bring any other nation to directly support Sweden ahead of the expiration of the Soviet deadline to open up the Baltic Exits and also Swedish airspace too. There was no real effort made, to push for overt foreign support. Palme tried to keep his country neutral at the same time as trying to win support. The deadline got closer and closer and he made other countries aware of it. They too were concerned and there was talk of acting. None could decide how though and in what manner, not with Sweden’s leader continuing to state neutrality and not willing to explore anything else officially or unofficially. That was no real excuse for some countries though. They should have acted: Swedish neutrality, even with ‘Olaf the Oaf’ – one British newspaper, one subject to government censorship and thus not stopped from doing this when it could have been, deemed him this unflattering name – at the helm, was important to them. That deadline then expired on January 9th 1985 and Sweden found itself at war with its neutrality violently ended. (to be continued) Wait what, Sweden is at war, the first time sins 1814 if i am correct, great update James. |
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forcon
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Post by forcon on Nov 7, 2018 20:11:06 GMT
Great stuff; the note was ominous though it's a bluff. I look forward to finding out what does happen - I'm thinking air and Spetsnaz action mainly?
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James G
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Post by James G on Nov 7, 2018 20:26:32 GMT
Now what to do with such a ship though? Use her as a helicopter carrier or to launch VTOL jets? That can be done though there are the amphibious assault ships for that role. Yet as the Americans plan to go into the Caribbean proper and on the offensive, another platform would be vital. As a carrier, the Lexington can only really operate A-4s and A-7s rather than Hornets, Intruders and Tomcats - the big jets - so anything bigger is unadvisable at the moment. I'll think on this. Wait what, Sweden is at war, the first time sins 1814 if i am correct, great update James. Yep, that is the case. Thanks: continued tomorrow. Great stuff; the note was ominous though it's a bluff. I look forward to finding out what does happen - I'm thinking air and Spetsnaz action mainly? It is a bluff. The Soviets want to open up the Baltic Exits: that is the priority over anything else and focus will be there... in one heck of a defended area. |
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. Unless its the classic case in dictatorships, especially where the leadership and reality are some way from each other where success is being reported to save someone's neck. With all the effort 40% estimated losses still leaves a hell of a lot. Hopefully all the attacks have also caused disruption which would delay matters further, although on the other hand its probably better for the allies if the Soviets were attacking and those raw new units, supported by experienced ones not yet committed are defending and then hit the Soviets on the counter once their lost their momentum and preferably a lot of their forces.
Or if I did I'd forgotten.
