lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 24, 2017 3:54:57 GMT
Absolutely yes. A basic premise of my TL is steady contact since Principate/Han times creates a virtuous imitation/competition dynamic between Rome and China that helps both empires overcome their flaws and evolve into industrialized superpowers. India eventually unites and joins the game because frankly it is the only way the Indians can avoid colonization by the imperialist Romans past a point. E.g. the example of China inspires Rome to create an extensive professional civil service to help checking the problem of military anarchy (other reforms also deal with this). To be fair, OTL Rome eventually did something similar in Byzantium, so it had homegrown potential for this on its own, but here it goes even further thanks to foreign example, and also because Rome suffers no decline and the Germanic, Slav, and Arab peoples are conquered and turned into a resource long before they can become a threat. Much the same way, steady contact with Rome inspires China to shake out Confucian stasis and complacence, and become just as interested in expansion, trade, and progress as Roman Europe. Because of geography, its expansion unfolds in Central Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, Oceania, and the western coast of the Americas. Korea, Japan, and Indochina are conquered and absorbed by an expanding China, and there is no 'Divine Wind' to save Japan ITTL, so in due time Seoul, Kyoto, Saigon, and Bangkok become as Chinese as Beijing, Nanjing, or Canton. Of course, geopolitical factors make Central Asia, Siberia, the Malay Archipelago, and Australasia potential contested lands between Rome, China, and India, and the outcome may vary depending on military, diplomatic, and colonial variables. My best guess is borders and spheres of influence in these areas may shift back and forth considerably over time in these areas. Geography gives a vast colonization advantage in the Americas to Rome east of the Great Divide and to China west of it, so I expect that becomes the final demarcation line between the two empires in the Americas, give or take a few adjustments. The Neolithic or Bronze Age Pre-Columbian civilizations simply don't have a snowball's chance in Hell to resist Roman or Chinese colonization given the massive technological, organization, and demographic (even more so after disease does its grim job) gap with the Early Modern Eurasian empires. The Romans acknowledge the Chinese and the Indians as worthy equals with a lot of interesting ideas in terms of power and sophistication and are fine with making the Amerindians dark-skinned citizens of the empire, but have no respect for weaker and backward 'barbarian' cultures. Moreover, the enthusiasm for human sacrifice of several Pre-Columbian cultures in all likelihood freaks out the Romans in thinking they are doing the world a favor by wiping them out. Climate and disease prevent the Romans from doing any extensive penetration in the western half of Sub-Saharan Africa for most of their history, so they make themselves content with some trade and indirect influence projecting from coastal outposts or the other side of the Sahara, and this quite possibly builds up a lasting precedent. Thanks to the Suez Canal and their control of the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf they also have no use for circumnavigation of Africa as a route to reach Asia, so the western side of Africa is marginal to their global interests. A possible exception for the same reasons may be East Africa and Southern Africa, since these regions are much more favorable to extensive European settlement than the rest of the continent, and the eastern coast of Africa is easy to reach from Roman lands, so Roman colonization of the area may well occur if the Romans are not too busy and/or sated with colonization elsewhere. Geography also makes the Asian empires not likely to get interested in colonization of Africa, again with the possible exception of India and eastern-southern Africa. So Sub-Saharan Africa is the most likely region of this world to see the rise of important polities that survive assimilation or utter domination by the Eurasian superpowers, although any African polity shall always be a midget to them. The other area of the world where indipendent polities are likely to arise and survive as buffer states is the friction zones between the spheres of influence of the empires, especially if they are of low value. Of course, Rome and China (and after unification, India) remain vulnerable to dynastic cycles, although past a point evolution into early modernity and industrialization snuffs them out. My TL's calculations expect Rome to achieve the Renaissance stage by the turn of the first millennium, and remain as dynamic as OTL Europe. China achieves pretty much the same level of dynamism in its own sphere. So we may expect TTL Eurasian empires and their colonies achieve industrialization by the half of the second millennium, and the Information Age by its last quarter. China and Rome are also expected to develop gunpowder on schedule by the beginning of the second millennium, which marks the point the steppe nomads turn from perennial nuisance and occasional serious threat into insignificant and powerless target for conquest. Even before that, the better shape of Rome and China means they suffer less damage from nomad breakouts (e.g. Rome pushes back the equivalent of the Huns with some effort). So three power blocks: Rome, India and China, what about those in South America like the Inca Empire, ore would they not stand a change against the might of Rome, China ore India.
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doug181
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Post by doug181 on Aug 24, 2017 11:40:35 GMT
Would all three become constitutional monarchies over time?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 24, 2017 12:38:18 GMT
Would all three become constitutional monarchies over time? Where they not already monarchies.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 25, 2017 18:30:06 GMT
If you ask my opinion, Pre-Columbian civilizations didn't have a chance IOTL where they fell like a house of cards to ragtag adventurers or rebel settlers and their odds are even worse ITTL where the Eurasian colonizers are more numerous, powerful, and organized. Let's not even mention of how poorly they would perform against an Early Modern Roman legion or Chinese army. Their lands were too valuable, their territories too easy to reach, and their technological, organization, and demographic gap with Eurasian civlizations too vast and crushing. To survive, they would have to perform the miracle of pulling a Meiji modernization from Neolithic or Bronze Age to Early Modernity in a few decades at most or the Eurasian empires and all their conquistadors, filibusters, and pioneers should leave them alone for a couple centuries or so. Not going to happen. If independent polities do arise in the Americas ITTL, it shall be because rebel settlers perform an analogue of the Atlantic Revolutions with the support of a rival empire. That is quite possible in the right circumstances , e.g. Roman settlers rediscovering/inventing a democratic-republican ideology and developing an independence wish because of distance and living conditions in the New World, and creating an analogue of the USA or Brazil with the support of China. A successful Maya or Inca state, not really so. I assume Roman and Chinese colonizers shall do a better job than OTL of assimilating conquered Amerindians in their society and won't burden the New World with a lasting racial problem from chattel slavery of deported Africans and bullding an ethnic superiority complex to justify it. But in all likelihood they won't see much worth preserving in Pre-Columbian civilizations, and in the cases of cultures with an appetite for human sacrifice they shall likely think they are doing the world a favor by wiping them out.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 25, 2017 19:23:26 GMT
As it concerns the political evolution of the three Eurasian empires, admittedly I have given much more thought to Rome than to China or India in this regard. Kinda like OTL Britain, TTL Rome does develop several basic features of a constitutional monarchy system centuries before industrialization. They include a Senate elected by the Empire's elites, a written constitution and succession law, and a power-sharing system between the Emperor and the Senate and between the various components of the ruling elite (army, bureaucracy, wealthy landowners, trading elites). Rome does so to help solve the political stability problems of the Principate, much like the way a strong executive monarchy was the solution to the instability of the late Republic. Rome has a rich checks-and-balances tradition, the same the Founding Fathers used as a model for their own system, so it is relatively easy for the Romans to tap into that for political reform. Therefore I assume the political path of least resistance for a modern Rome would be to evolve a political system that combines features of an elective executive monarchy and US-style presidentialism and separation of powers. European parliamentarism and hereditary monarchy are not really suited nor congenial for them.
To make the system fully suitable for the circumstances of modernity and industrialization they just need a few tweaks, such as universal suffrage for the Senate, a modern Cabinet system, a succession law for the Imperial executive that takes the wishes of public opinion into account, and a mechanism to impeach and remove corrupt or inept leaders. I suppose this kind of reform would not excessively difficult to accomplish (i.e. without a radical political revolution) under sufficient pressure. On the other hand, there are features of OTL modern liberalism this world may easily or even likely never develop, such as the notion of universal human rights even convicted criminals and rebels enjoy, anything like Westphalian sovereignty and national self-determination, or the very notion of ethnic nationalism.
For the end-state of my TL, I've devised a political system for modern Rome where the Senate is elected by a combination of direct universal suffrage and corporatist representation, there is a US-style separation of powers between the Senate and the Emperor, the Imperial government has Ministries that are nominated by the Emperor and approved by the Senate, the Emperor nominates a successor that is confirmed by the Senate and/or a plebiscite. Typically the Emperors have to pick a popular and talented successor that proved their worth with a successful career in politics, the army, administration, and/or business, or their own legitimacy would be in jeopardy. Roman society doesn't mind nepotism, but only if the relative is popular and seems competent. If the Imperial succession breaks down, the Senate elects the new Emperor. Theoretically speaking, Emperors rule for life and a supermajority of the Senate or the Imperial Cabinet can impeach and remove an Emperor that got incapacitated, abused his powers, or grew too unpopular or ineffective. In practice most Emperors that exhausted their political capital or became too old, ill or tired of the job choose to abdicate and retire as respected elder statesmen rather than suffer the disgrace of removal.
It is not a perfect system (e.g. it lacks an easy system to provide a quick change in leadership when public opinion wants a radical shift in political agenda) but I guess it may work sufficiently well for the needs of an industrialized superpower. However I also assume a few tweaks to the system to make it more presidential and democratic, such as making the Emperor explictly elected, or setting a term to his rule, might be feasible in the right circumstances. Although I expect the Romans would likely never become comfortable with the notion of setting term limits to a successful and popular leader, and parliamentarism would never suit their tastes, after a millennium and half of successful Imperial rule.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2017 4:06:29 GMT
If you ask my opinion, Pre-Columbian civilizations didn't have a chance IOTL where they fell like a house of cards to ragtag adventurers or rebel settlers and their odds are even worse ITTL where the Eurasian colonizers are more numerous, powerful, and organized. Let's not even mention of how poorly they would perform against an Early Modern Roman legion or Chinese army. Their lands were too valuable, their territories too easy to reach, and their technological, organization, and demographic gap with Eurasian civlizations too vast and crushing. To survive, they would have to perform the miracle of pulling a Meiji modernization from Neolithic or Bronze Age to Early Modernity in a few decades at most or the Eurasian empires and all their conquistadors, filibusters, and pioneers should leave them alone for a couple centuries or so. Not going to happen. If independent polities do arise in the Americas ITTL, it shall be because rebel settlers perform an analogue of the Atlantic Revolutions with the support of a rival empire. That is quite possible in the right circumstances , e.g. Roman settlers rediscovering/inventing a democratic-republican ideology and developing an independence wish because of distance and living conditions in the New World, and creating an analogue of the USA or Brazil with the support of China. A successful Maya or Inca state, not really so. I assume Roman and Chinese colonizers shall do a better job than OTL of assimilating conquered Amerindians in their society and won't burden the New World with a lasting racial problem from chattel slavery of deported Africans and bullding an ethnic superiority complex to justify it. But in all likelihood they won't see much worth preserving in Pre-Columbian civilizations, and in the cases of cultures with an appetite for human sacrifice they shall likely think they are doing the world a favor by wiping them out. So a Roman Legion could defeat the Inca Empire in any time period thanks to training and better weaponry available to the Romans.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 26, 2017 7:35:42 GMT
So a Roman Legion could defeat the Inca Empire in any time period thanks to training and better weaponry available to the Romans. Very much so. Of course, given its position, it is entirely possible, and perhaps even likely, the Inca Empire is conquered by the Chinese instead, but the military outcome of a clash between the Inca and a Chinese army with Renaissance weaponry and organization would not really change. It is also quite possible the Chinese and/or Roman colonies in the New World eventually go the OTL way, esp. if a rival empire supports their rebellion to weaken their competitors, the way France and Spain did to Britain and Britain did to Spain. But they would not be any more 'native' at that point than OTL American states. As a matter of fact, although I expect TTL Roman or Chinese colonizers would do a better job than OTL USA of assimilating conquered natives, and there would not be any extensive African chattel slavery, the number of European or Chinese settlers would likely be considerably higher than OTL Latin America due to the much bigger immigration pool. Besides coming from an united Europe and a seafaring China, TTL basic definitions of Rome/Europe and China do include North Africa and the Middle East for the former, and Korea, Japan, and Indochina for the latter. So the population of TTL New World colonies would in all likelihood be majority Caucasian or East Asian, with a sizable minority of assimilated Amerindians and mixed-bloods, a relatively small minority of immigrants from the other empires and independent African states, and no large community of descendants of African slaves. Then again, ethnic/racial features would be largely meaningless for TTL empires, especially for the Romans whose notions of civic identity and universal empire run counter to such ideas. No matter which color your skin, the important is you obey the Empire, pay your taxes, and hopefully get yourself or your descendants to speak Latin and be proud Roman citizens. Usually the latter happens within a few generations at most.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 26, 2017 17:12:15 GMT
So a Roman Legion could defeat the Inca Empire in any time period thanks to training and better weaponry available to the Romans. Very much so. Of course, given its position, it is entirely possible, and perhaps even likely, the Inca Empire is conquered by the Chinese instead. Of course, the military outcome of a clash between the Inca and a Chinese army with Renaissance weaponry and organization would not really change. It is also quite possible the Chinese or Roman colonies in the New World go the OTL way, esp. if a rival empire supports their rebellion to weaken their competitors, the way France and Spain did to Britain and Britain did to Spain. But they would not be any more 'native' at that point than OTL American states. As a matter of fact, although I expect TTL Roman or Chinese colonizers would do a much better job than OTL USA of assimilating conquered natives, and there would not be any extensive African chattel slavery, the number of European or Chinese settlers would likely be much higher than OTL Latin America due to the much bigger immigration pool. So the demography of TTL New World colonies would in all likelihood be majority European or Chinese, with a sizable minority of assimilated Amerindians and mixed-bloods, a relatively small minority of immigrants from the other empires and independent African states, and no large community of descendants of African slaves. Then again, ethnic/racial features would be largely meaningless for TTL empires, especially for the Romans whose notions of civic identity and universal empire run counter to such ideas. No matter which color your skin, the important is you obey the Empire, pay your taxes, and hopefully get yourself or your descendants to speak Latin and be proud Roman citizens. Usually the latter happens within a few generations at most. Would a surviving Rome continuity with gladiator games ore would it become less with time like it did in OTL.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 27, 2017 15:38:25 GMT
Would a surviving Rome continuity with gladiator games ore would it become less with time like it did in OTL. Well, I think with a surviving, successful Rome and no Christianity to mess with people's fun (again) the gladiator games would survive and thrive, although they would have to change. I assume in modern Rome the gladiators would mostly be highly-paid, expensively trained, and popular professional athletes with a minority of phusically-fit, enslaved convicted felons that try to earn a pardon in the games. Gladiators would be trained to disable rather than kill and fights to the death would be very rare except for convict vs. convict fights. Modern gladiatorial games would likely focus on human vs. human fights or various kinds of dangerous stunts. Modern population growth and the vast extension of the empire would in all likelihood create an unsustainable pressure on use of wild predatory megafauna in the games, leading to severe limitations. To the degree that human vs. beast fights would still be used, the animals would be expressely bred in captivity or in the wild in controlled conditions, quite possibly with the help of artificial insemination, much like it happens IOTL with bullfighting. In other words, modern gladiators would become very much like professional athletes and the games would be a part of popular sports entertainment.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 27, 2017 15:47:59 GMT
Would a surviving Rome continuity with gladiator games ore would it become less with time like it did in OTL. Well, I think with a surviving, successful Rome and no Christianity to mess with people's fun (again) the gladiator games would survive and thrive, although they would have to change. I assume in modern Rome the gladiators would mostly be highly-paid, expensively trained, and popular professional athletes with a minority of phusically-fit, enslaved convicted felons that try to earn a pardon in the games. Gladiators would be trained to disabled rather than kill and fights to the death would be very rare except for convict vs. convict fights. Modern gladiatorial games would likely focus on human vs. human fights or various kinds of dangerous stunts. Modern population growth and the vast extension of the empire would in all likelihood create an unsustainable pressure on use of wild predatory megafauna in the games, leading to severe limitations. To the degree that human vs. beast fights would still be used, the animals would be expressely bred in captivity or in the wild in controlled conditions, quite possibly with the help of artificial insemination, much like it happens IOTL with bullfighting. In other words, modern gladiators would become very much like professional athletes and the games would be a part of popular sports entertainment. So we could see a larger modern version of the Colosseum build in Rome, ore is the old one good enough.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 28, 2017 19:07:17 GMT
Well, I think with a surviving, successful Rome and no Christianity to mess with people's fun (again) the gladiator games would survive and thrive, although they would have to change. I assume in modern Rome the gladiators would mostly be highly-paid, expensively trained, and popular professional athletes with a minority of phusically-fit, enslaved convicted felons that try to earn a pardon in the games. Gladiators would be trained to disabled rather than kill and fights to the death would be very rare except for convict vs. convict fights. Modern gladiatorial games would likely focus on human vs. human fights or various kinds of dangerous stunts. Modern population growth and the vast extension of the empire would in all likelihood create an unsustainable pressure on use of wild predatory megafauna in the games, leading to severe limitations. To the degree that human vs. beast fights would still be used, the animals would be expressely bred in captivity or in the wild in controlled conditions, quite possibly with the help of artificial insemination, much like it happens IOTL with bullfighting. In other words, modern gladiators would become very much like professional athletes and the games would be a part of popular sports entertainment. So we could see a larger modern version of the Colosseum build in Rome, ore is the old one good enough. Well, with the steady population growth of Rome the city and the Roman Empire in their path to modernity I suppose the 1st century version of the Colosseum (and the Circus Maximum; chariot racing was just as popular as gladiator games) would grow inadequate and would have to be rebuilt and replaced at some point. Admittedly I'm not sure when this would be likely the case, but at some point it is inevitable and in all likelihood it happens several times in TTL history. Of course, with a thriving Roman empire and civilization, such buildings would still be impressive but not any more iconic than modern stadiums in any OTL metropolitan area. Moreover, the Romans did love their sports and games a lot, and built circuses, amphitheaters, and theaters in any barely important city. With TTL much more enduring, successful, and prosperous Rome, we can only expect the pattern to magnify, so there shall be a helluva lot of Roman fun centers spread across the Empire. I'm not imaginative enough to figure which other sports might become popular in evolving Roman culture besides and alongside the historical ones, but I guess it would not be too different from a combination of the historical cases and broad analogues of OTL ones, probably a bit less squeamish. However we do know it was a culture that pionereed the world in pursuing popular entertainment with reckless enthusiasm, and the pattern is going to hold strong and true all the way to the Internet and virtual reality.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 29, 2017 2:50:04 GMT
So we could see a larger modern version of the Colosseum build in Rome, ore is the old one good enough. Well, with the steady population growth of Rome the city and the Roman Empire in their path to modernity I suppose the 1st century version of the Colosseum (and the Circus Maximum; chariot racing was just as popular as gladiator games) would grow inadequate and would have to be rebuilt and replaced at some point. Admittedly I'm not sure when this would be likely the case, but at some point it is inevitable and in all likelihood it happens several times in TTL history. Of course, with a thriving Roman empire and civilization, such buildings would still be impressive but not any more iconic than modern stadiums in any OTL metropolitan area. Moreover, the Romans did love their sports and games a lot, and built circuses, amphitheaters, and theaters in any barely important city. With TTL much more enduring, successful, and prosperous Rome, we can only expect the pattern to magnify, so there shall be a helluva lot of Roman fun centers spread across the Empire. I'm not imaginative enough to figure which other sports might become popular in evolving Roman culture besides and alongside the historical ones, but I guess it would not be too different from a combination of the historical cases and broad analogues of OTL ones, probably a bit less squeamish. However we do know it was a culture that pionereed the world in pursuing popular entertainment with reckless enthusiasm, and the pattern is going to hold strong and true all the way to the Internet and virtual reality. So the current Colosseum in Rome is large enough for the foreseeable future and does not to be tear down for a larger one.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 31, 2017 11:56:01 GMT
Well, with the steady population growth of Rome the city and the Roman Empire in their path to modernity I suppose the 1st century version of the Colosseum (and the Circus Maximum; chariot racing was just as popular as gladiator games) would grow inadequate and would have to be rebuilt and replaced at some point. Admittedly I'm not sure when this would be likely the case, but at some point it is inevitable and in all likelihood it happens several times in TTL history. Of course, with a thriving Roman empire and civilization, such buildings would still be impressive but not any more iconic than modern stadiums in any OTL metropolitan area. Moreover, the Romans did love their sports and games a lot, and built circuses, amphitheaters, and theaters in any barely important city. With TTL much more enduring, successful, and prosperous Rome, we can only expect the pattern to magnify, so there shall be a helluva lot of Roman fun centers spread across the Empire. I'm not imaginative enough to figure which other sports might become popular in evolving Roman culture besides and alongside the historical ones, but I guess it would not be too different from a combination of the historical cases and broad analogues of OTL ones, probably a bit less squeamish. However we do know it was a culture that pionereed the world in pursuing popular entertainment with reckless enthusiasm, and the pattern is going to hold strong and true all the way to the Internet and virtual reality. So the current Colosseum in Rome is large enough for the foreseeable future and does not to be tear down for a larger one. In the premodern period, quite possibly. IIRC Rome and Constantinople at their peak were more or less pushing the envelope of how big a city could grow with pre-industrial tech. TTL Roman Empire pretty much hovers at that efficiency peak until it industrializes, so the much bigger population it accumulates over time is going to be spread across the Empire as the Romans keep building more cities in every area they conquer. So IMO a good guess of the Empire's population in the first millennium and half CE is the sum of how big it could get in each area with near-optimal premodern tech and organization. Of course, TTL Rome is going to industrialize eventually, and this is going to let the capital (and many other major cities of the Empire) grow into a metro area. At that point facilities like the Colosseum and the Circus Maximum might well grow inadequate and in need of replacement. To aestimate modern Rome's population I suppose one might use OTL numbers as a base, after adjusting for North Africa and the Middle East having achieved developed world standards since Rome first industrialized, and the Romans having done a better job than ourselves of filling up places like Russia or the Americas.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 31, 2017 13:48:45 GMT
So the current Colosseum in Rome is large enough for the foreseeable future and does not to be tear down for a larger one. In the premodern period, quite possibly. IIRC Rome and Constantinople at their peak were more or less pushing the envelope of how big a city could grow with pre-industrial tech. TTL Roman Empire pretty much hovers at that efficiency peak until it industrializes, so the much bigger population it accumulates over time is going to be spread across the Empire as the Romans keep building more cities in every area they conquer. So IMO a good guess of the Empire's population in the first millennium and half CE is the sum of how big it could get in each area with near-optimal premodern tech and organization. Of course, TTL Rome is going to industrialize eventually, and this is going to let the capital (and many other major cities of the Empire) grow into a metro area. At that point facilities like the Colosseum and the Circus Maximum might well grow inadequate and in need of replacement. To aestimate modern Rome's population I suppose one might use OTL numbers as a base, after adjusting for North Africa and the Middle East having achieved developed world standards since Rome first industrialized, and the Romans having done a better job than ourselves of filling up places like Russia or the Americas. Would a TTL Rome (the city not the empire) be bigger than OTL Rome as we might not have some things happening like raids, black plague and so sort of things.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 31, 2017 16:56:24 GMT
In the premodern period, quite possibly. IIRC Rome and Constantinople at their peak were more or less pushing the envelope of how big a city could grow with pre-industrial tech. TTL Roman Empire pretty much hovers at that efficiency peak until it industrializes, so the much bigger population it accumulates over time is going to be spread across the Empire as the Romans keep building more cities in every area they conquer. So IMO a good guess of the Empire's population in the first millennium and half CE is the sum of how big it could get in each area with near-optimal premodern tech and organization. Of course, TTL Rome is going to industrialize eventually, and this is going to let the capital (and many other major cities of the Empire) grow into a metro area. At that point facilities like the Colosseum and the Circus Maximum might well grow inadequate and in need of replacement. To aestimate modern Rome's population I suppose one might use OTL numbers as a base, after adjusting for North Africa and the Middle East having achieved developed world standards since Rome first industrialized, and the Romans having done a better job than ourselves of filling up places like Russia or the Americas. Would a TTL Rome (the city not the empire) be bigger than OTL Rome as we might not have some things happening like raids, black plague and so sort of things. Bigger than the city in its periods of decline, most certainly. Bigger than OTL Rome or Constantinople when their empires were at their apex, not sure. I seem to remember reading the cities were pushing the envelope in terms of what premodern technology would afford re size and complexity, even taking Roman top-class organization into account. But I might be misremembering. In any case, this version of the Roman Empire is going to have a much bigger population than OTL, thanks to its much greater size and ongoing prosperity. There is not going to be any equivalent of the barbarian or Arab invasions (ITTL these enemies are thoroughly assimilated into Roman civilization, they pay taxes and fight for Rome in the legions). They do suffer a couple serious steppe nomad breakouts and period of Norse raids, but they contain them in the border regions and fight them back after a while, so they are much less damaging than OTL. This version of Rome does not suffer any socio-economic collapse into manorialism and feudalism, it remains an highly urbanized integrated market economy and expands its model to absorb the entire northwestern portion of the Old World. They do suffer a few serious plague bouts (notably an equivalent of Justinian's plague and quite possibly the Black Death as well), but as a rule they are rather less damaging thanks to Roman excellent sanitation and greater medical knowledge than OTL. I'm just unsure how much of this extra population is going to stay in the fields to feed the rest, how much is going to live in a much larger and more developed urban network, and how much to go in the capital. No doubt ITTL the mystique of Rome as Urbs Aeterna and Caput Mundi is going to mind-boggling and entirely justified. As for the Roman Empire, we simply don't have an adequate OTL comparison on how much influential TTL Rome is going to be on Western, nay human civilization at large. By the time they set foot on the Moon and build the Internet, they would have been writing the manual of civilization and ruling one-third to half of mankind for the better part of two millennia.
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