eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 21, 2017 15:13:28 GMT
The topic at hand is to review and discuss what kind of engineering endeavors and infrastructure efforts a completely successful Roman Empire would pursue during its history all the way to the Information Age, most definitely including the macro- and mega-engineering kind. This scenario assumes a very successful Roman civilization that keeps its genius and enthusiasm for engineering throughout its history, engaging in several impressive projects at the best of its considerable talents and resources.
Feasible ideas I can think of for the pre-modern period include: * The Roman road network gets extended across all of Europe, North Africa, and the Near East. * The Romans build a semaphore telegraph network to improve speed of communications through the empire. * They establish and maintain the Suez Canal to greatly improve their control of the trade network between India and the Mediterranean. IOTL, a version of the Suez Canal (the Canal of the Pharaohs) intermittently operated from the Pharaohs’ time to the Byzantine period, so the Romans expand on that, eventually creating a replica of the modern project. * They gradually build a network of canals across Europe that links the major rivers of the continent from Gallia to Sarmatia and the Mediterranean with the North Sea. It allows them to navigate with ease from one end of the continent to the other, for trade and military purposes. A limited version of this was proposed IOTL but the plan was dropped for political intrigues. * They dig a version of the Kiel Canal - IOTL, a version of this existed since the Middle Ages – which gradually becomes an equivalent of the modern project. They also build an early version of the Corinth Canal. IOTL it was attempted in Nero’s time, and dropped because of his death. * The qanat system gets gradually spread throughout all the arid regions of the Roman Empire. * The Romans build the ‘Great Limes’, an extensive set of fortifications on the Vistula-Dniester line to protect the eastern border from the steppe nomads, which becomes the Western equivalent of the Great Wall. It eventually gets abandoned once Rome starts to colonize Sarmatia in earnest, but equivalents are established further east during colonization of the steppes, eventually finding the final version on the Volga or the Urals.
I’m not sure if it would require modern technology or not, but a canal to bypass the Nile cataracts is certainly a possibility. It seems a version of this was built in the Pharaohs’ period for the First Cataract, although like the Canal of the Pharaohs but to an higher degree it required some serious periodic maintenance because of the silting problem.
Feasible projects I can think of that require modern technology include: * Pretty much any big hydraulic project that was built IOTL in western Eurasia or the Americas, most definitely including the Aswan Dam, the Panama Canal, and the Nicaragua Canal. * An extensive desalinization and irrigation system in the arid regions of the empire with access to the sea. * Realization of the ‘Sahara Sea’ project to flood the endorheic basins in the Sahara Desert with waters from the Atlantic Ocean or Mediterranean Sea. This creates a series of inland salt lakes that cover the substantial areas of the Sahara Desert which lie below sea level, bringing humid air, rain and agriculture deep into the desert, and allowing generation of hydroelectricity from the continuously flowing water. * Thorough exploitation of pretty much any potential hydroelectric source in the empire’s territory, as well as extensive use of nuclear, solar, and wind power. * An extremely developed railroad, highway, and airport network, with generous use of mag-lev technology. * Space colonization.
For reference, let’s assume ITTL the Roman Empire avoids, corrects, or overcomes all the causes of its OTL downfall and keeps expanding and absorbing new peoples, territories, and resources to the best of its remarkable abilities. In due time it industrializes much like OTL Europe - probably several centuries earlier b/c of the lack of Dark Ages collapse. During its Classical and Late Antiquity period it holds on to all OTL territories and conquers Germania Magna up to the Vistula-Tyras line, Kush, South Arabia, Mesopotamia, Greater Armenia, western Persia, Caledonia, and Hibernia. Subsequently it assimilates Sarmatia, Aksum, Scandia, and the rest of Arabia and Persia during the Middle Ages. Once it masters Renaissance technology, it colonizes the Americas at least up to the Continental Divide. Quite possibly it may colonize East Africa and Southern Africa as well, although it tends to leave the rest of Africa alone for climate and disease reasons.
Much like OTL China but on a larger scale, TTL Rome grows into a very successful imperial civilization with a civic-universalist perspective and an unbreakable national identity and cultural-political unity, despite occasional periods of strife and disunion. ITTL the Western Eurasian core of the Roman civilization and the very notion of ‘Europe’ grow to include all of OTL Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. Religions that might become a serious cause of political strife and disunion for Rome, including Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism, get suppressed, marginalized, or expelled beyond Roman borders, or are simply erased out of existence in Islam’s case. Perhaps Buddhism becomes dominant in the Roman Empire, or maybe European polytheism and Roman philosophy merge and evolve into an sophisticated analogue of Hinduism that becomes the national faith of Rome, or the empire remains quite religiously diverse up to modern times.
As a rule, Rome regards ethnic differences as meaningless and remains tolerant of cultural diversity that does not threaten its political stability, typically being eager and efficient at assimilating and adapting useful or interesting ideas from any source. Nonetheless it is quite ruthless and efficient at suppressing resistance to its rule and potential sources of disloyalty. Imperial unity naturally leads to a high degree of cultural-linguistic cohesion. A fusion of Latin and Greek with serious borrowings from many sources evolves into Rome’s lingua franca that is fluently spoken by the overwhelming majority of Roman citizens. It remains intelligible across the Roman Empire despite some inevitable regional drift.
Steady cultural and trade exchanges between Rome, China, and India since Classical times foster parallel progress in all three civilizations, drive China to avoid the trap of isolationist complacence and high-equilibrium stagnation, and prod India into a path to imperial unity. Over time, the three Eurasian empires grow into the world’s three industrialized superpowers. Most other polities get absorbed or utterly dominated by them, or at the least live in their shadow. Much like Rome in its own turf, China and India eventually go on an expansion and colonization spree of their own, so they absorb most of East Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia, Oceania, and the western portion of the Americas between them.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 21, 2017 15:14:56 GMT
I’m not sure if it would require modern technology or not, but a canal to bypass the Nile cataracts is certainly a possibility. It seems a version of this was built in the Pharaohs’ period for the First Cataract, although just like the Canal of the Pharaohs it required serious maintenance. Wait so no Roman version of the Suez Canal.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 21, 2017 15:33:12 GMT
I’m not sure if it would require modern technology or not, but a canal to bypass the Nile cataracts is certainly a possibility. It seems a version of this was built in the Pharaohs’ period for the First Cataract, although just like the Canal of the Pharaohs it required serious maintenance. Wait so no Roman version of the Suez Canal. From what I read, both canals took some serious periodic maintenance because of silting, but the First Cataract Canal rather more so than the Canal of the Pharaohs. Nonetheless, in the latter case it was good enough for the Canal to operate on a scale ranging from several decades to a few centuries, since it seems the Canal was intermittently used from the Pharaohs' period to Byzantine times. Apparently it got in use when a strong state controlled the area and could deal with periodic maintenance, and fell in disrepair when the political situation did not allow to take care of the silting problem for too long. Since TTL an extremely successful Rome is assumed to control the Middle East since Classical times, it would certainly be able to keep the Suez Canal operative pretty much throughout the last two millennia, except perhaps during periods of temporary weakness, and when the empire recovers it would do the necessary fixes. In terms of economic and strategic value for Rome, the Suez Canal would have outmost importance, so I have no doubt a successful empire would undertake all the necessary maintenance and repair project, over and over again. Moreover, at some point Rome would build the modern version of the Canal, which cuts the link with the Nile and deals much better with the silting problem.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 21, 2017 15:46:19 GMT
Wait so no Roman version of the Suez Canal. Moreover, at some point Rome would build the modern version of the Canal, which cuts the link with the Nile and deals much better with the silting problem. So Rome can only build their own version of a Suez canal when they have the tech and knowledge to do it.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 21, 2017 16:04:40 GMT
Moreover, at some point Rome would build the modern version of the Canal, which cuts the link with the Nile and deals much better with the silting problem. So Rome can only build their own version of a Suez canal when they have the tech and knowledge to do it. Well, the tech and knowledge for the Canal of the Pharaohs demonstrably existed even before Rome. As it concerns the modern version, I assume it could actually be done in premodern times if enough manpower and money gets thrown at the project (and TTL Rome would have plenty of both, controlling all of Europe, North Africa, and the Near East). The modern Suez Canal is fairly simple technology, a single-lane waterway dug across a desert plain with no locks system. Throw enough diggers at it, and it can be done, it doesn't actually require explosives or machines.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 21, 2017 16:08:39 GMT
manpower and money gets thrown at the project (and TTL Rome would have plenty of both, controlling all of Europe, North Africa, and the Near East). You mean slave power in manpower.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 21, 2017 17:14:32 GMT
manpower and money gets thrown at the project (and TTL Rome would have plenty of both, controlling all of Europe, North Africa, and the Near East). You mean slave power in manpower. For the projects that get built in Classical and Late Antiquity times, most certainly. It would be too early for a successful Rome to evolve beyond slavery. On the other hand, I'm fairly sure in a successful Rome certain OTL social institutions such as chattel slavery and second-class status of women cannot realistically survive all the way to modern times, stereotypes aside. Even during the Principate dynamics were noticeable in Roman society that suggest a gradual decline and marginalization of such increasingly obsolete institutions. Without racial prejudice to feed it and with ease of emancipation and assimilation of freedmen tp undermine it, Roman version of slavery would decline earlier and with less difficulty than the OTL early modern version, probably gradually transforming into a system of indentured servitude and apprenticeship. Of course, periods following major conquests when PoW would be plentiful might cause temporary relapses in the practice. But Roman society was and in all likelihood would stay drastically averse to the kind of ethnic polarization that would be necessary to entrench slavery for long heading into modernity. My own notes for a successful Rome TL tend to assume gradual decline and marginalization of chattel slavery during the Late Antiquity and Middle Ages periods. On the other hand, temporary slavery as a form of punishment for convicted felons may well survive in Rome all the way to the 21st century, effectively making forced labor more or less the default punishment in Rome for serious crimes, when fines or community service would be too little and the death penalty too much. Much the same way, modern Rome may well have few moral scruples using enslaved felons for medical experimentation, in brothels, and the like. Another use of course might be gladiator games, which I expect may easily stay quite popular in some form all the way to modern times. Although I also expect over time the games would be increasingly performed by free professional athletes, again developing noticeable OTL trends, and include a mix of staged combats and extreme sports.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 21, 2017 17:17:52 GMT
You mean slave power in manpower. For the projects that get built in Classical and Late Antiquity times, most certainly. It would be too early for a successful Rome to evolve much beyond slavery. On the other hand, I'm fairly sure in a successful Rome certain OTL social institutions such as chattel slavery and second-class status of women cannot realistically survive all the way to modern times, iconic sterotypes aside. Even during the Principate dynamics were noticeable in Roman society that suggest a gradual decline, marginalization, and extinction of such increasingly obsolete features. Without racial prejudice to feed it and with ease of emancipation and assimilation of freedmen, Roman version of slavery would decline earlier and with less difficulty than the OTL early modern version, gradually transforming into apprenticeship and indentured servitude and apprenticeship. Of course, periods following major conquests when PoW would be plentiful might cause temporary relapses in the practice. But Roman society was and in all likelihood would stay drastically averse to the kind of racial prejudice that would be necessary to entrench slavery for too long. My own notes for a successful Rome TL tend to assume gradual decline and marginalization of chattel slavery during the Late Antiquity and Middle Ages times. On the other hand, temporary slavery as a form of punishment for convicted felons may well survive in Rome all the way to the 21st century, effectively making forced labor more or less the default punishment in Rome for serious crimes, when fines or community service would be too little and the death penalty too much. Much the same way, modern Rome may well have few moral scruples using enslaved felons for medical experimentation, in brothels, and the like. Another use of course might be gladiator games, which I expect may well be stay quite popular in some form all the way to modern times. Although I expect over time the games would be increasingly performed by free professional athletes, again developing noticeable OTL trends, and include a mix of staged combats and extreme sports. A surviving Rome reminds me about these books: Romanitas
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 21, 2017 20:05:35 GMT
I greatly enjoyed the Romanitas series for its ideas, even if the author's prose made it somewhat difficult for me to read it in its entirety. If you ask my opinion, the series correctly nailed several features a successful Rome would likely develop, such as the multicontinental superstate extension, the bipolar or tripolar global dynamic with the other sophisticated Eurasian civilizations, and the evolution into an modern industrialized superpower not much different technologically from OTL developed world. If anything, it was somewhat too static (although perhaps the author made it for the sake of drama and familiarity) in assuming modern Rome would still feature chattel slavery as a major social problem, and stay an absolute monarchy with military coup as a frequent way of succession. A successful Rome would likely evolve beyond slavery (except quite possibly for criminal justice) and develop a more stable succession and check-and-balances system in order to endure. I expect modern Rome would have perhaps most likely develop a constitutional elective monarchy system not radically different from the US 'Imperial Presidency', albeit probably leaning more on the authoritarian side (e.g. lack of a notion of human rights for rebels and convicted criminals, successful and popular leaders staying in power as much as they like, the state getting exceedingly ample leeway to crush threats to its stability). So perhaps a bit more like modern Russia than America.
On the other hand, such a society would experience few or no ethnic/racial tensions. Roman culture's notion of civic identity and its universalist ideal were radically incompatible with racist prejudice, it had a definite notion of cultural superiority vs. less advanced/sophisticated civilizations but it expected anybody could be a good Roman with the right attitude and training. It would also have relatively few troubles with sexual orientation issues, since Roman society seemed to embrace the ideal of bisexuality as the default standard with most variations being a matter of individual taste, although overt effeminacy was and may well stay a major taboo given the social veneration of masculine values. For similar reasons, I expect Roman society would find a path to embrace women's equality, but likely an 'Amazonian' one based on its own values. In other words, Romans would come to internalize the notion women can and should be as tough, competent, stoic, and self-reliant as men, so they deserve equal legal and social treatment. Political correctness and reliance on 'feelings' and 'sensibilities' would likely stay alien and laughable to them even when women successfully claim an equal place at the table.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 22, 2017 3:40:22 GMT
I greatly enjoyed the Romanitas series for its ideas, even if the author's prose made it somewhat difficult for me to read it in its entirety. If you ask my opinion, the series correctly nailed several features a successful Rome would likely develop, such as the multicontinental superstate extension, the bipolar or tripolar global dynamic with the other sophisticated Eurasian civilizations, and the evolution into an modern industrialized superpower not much different technologically from OTL developed world. If anything, it was somewhat too static (although perhaps the author made it for the sake of drama and familiarity) in assuming modern Rome would still feature chattel slavery as a major social problem, and stay an absolute monarchy with military coup as a frequent way of succession. A successful Rome would likely evolve beyond slavery (except quite possibly for criminal justice) and develop a more stable succession and check-and-balances system in order to endure. I expect modern Rome would have perhaps most likely develop a constitutional elective monarchy system not radically different from the US 'Imperial Presidency', albeit probably leaning more on the authoritarian side (e.g. lack of a notion of human rights for rebels and convicted criminals, successful and popular leaders staying in power as much as they like, the state getting exceedingly ample leeway to crush threats to its stability). So perhaps a bit more like modern Russia than America. On the other hand, such a society would experience few or no ethnic/racial tensions. Roman culture's notion of civic identity and its universalist ideal were radically incompatible with racist prejudice, it had a definite notion of cultural superiority vs. less advanced/sophisticated civilizations but it expected anybody could be a good Roman with the right attitude and training. It would also have relatively few troubles with sexual orientation issues, since Roman society seemed to embrace the ideal of bisexuality as the default standard with most variations being a matter of individual taste, although overt effeminacy was and may well stay a major taboo given the social veneration of masculine values. For similar reasons, I expect Roman society would find a path to embrace women's equality, but likely an 'Amazonian' one based on its own values. In other words, Romans would come to internalize the notion women can and should be as tough, competent, stoic, and self-reliant as men, so they deserve equal legal and social treatment. Political correctness and reliance on 'feelings' and 'sensibilities' would likely stay alien and laughable to them even when women successfully claim an equal place at the table. Would Rome be able to get their hands on black powered from China ore would they find it on their own.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 22, 2017 18:18:30 GMT
Would Rome be able to get their hands on black powered from China ore would they find it on their own. Unlike most inventions that showed a tendency to independent rediscovery in different times and places IOTL and might theoretically replicate the pattern ITTL except Eurasian circulation of ideas often makes it unnecessary, blackpowder showed an important serendipity element, so it might go both ways but I lean towards discovery in a single place and a fairly rapid spread among the advanced civlizations of Eurasia, much like it happened IOTL. If anything, cultural and technological diffusion tends to be even more efficient ITTL across the Rome-India-China circuit, since the success of Rome first bypasses and marginalizes the Persian obstacle/middleman, then absorbs it altogether, seizes near-complete control of the sea trade routes to India, and prevents Islam from existing. Rome's imperial success is mirrored by China avoiding the isolationist, high-equilibrium stasis trap and India finding a path to imperial unity like its sister civilizations. Barring the inevitable differences for premodern civilizations, TTL Eurasia is much more globalized than OTL since Classical times. As a consequence, the three civilizations share effective and lively trade exchanges, circulation of ideas, and diplomatic relations since Classical times. So cultural and technological innovations spread from one settled end of Eurasia to the other w/o excessive difficulty, Rome gets timely access to the Four Great Inventions (gunpowder, compass, paper, printing) and other Chinese technology much the same way China gets to tap Roman technological achievements (e.g. cement and engineering). This is one reason why Rome, China, and to a slightly lesser degree India influence each other into becoming millennial outstanding success stories as civilizations and empires all the way to modern superpower status, sometimes being competitors or rivals, sometimes being mirrors and analogues, but always being well aware of each other.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 23, 2017 12:26:19 GMT
Would Rome be able to get their hands on black powered from China ore would they find it on their own. Unlike most inventions that showed a tendency to independent rediscovery in different times and places IOTL and might theoretically replicate the pattern ITTL except Eurasian circulation of ideas often makes it unnecessary, blackpowder showed an important serendipity element, so it might go both ways but I lean towards discovery in a single place and a fairly rapid spread among the advanced civlizations of Eurasia, much like it happened IOTL. If anything, cultural and technological diffusion tends to be even more efficient ITTL across the Rome-India-China circuit, since the success of Rome first bypasses and marginalizes the Persian obstacle/middleman, then absorbs it altogether, seizes near-complete control of the sea trade routes to India, and prevents Islam from existing. Rome's imperial success is mirrored by China avoiding the isolationist, high-equilibrium stasis trap and India finding a path to imperial unity like its sister civilizations. Barring the inevitable differences for premodern civilizations, TTL Eurasia is much more globalized than OTL since Classical times. As a consequence, the three civilizations share effective and lively trade exchanges, circulation of ideas, and diplomatic relations since Classical times. So cultural and technological innovations spread from one settled end of Eurasia to the other w/o excessive difficulty, Rome gets timely access to the Four Great Inventions (gunpowder, compass, paper, printing) and other Chinese technology much the same way China gets to tap Roman technological achievements (e.g. cement and engineering). This is one reason why Rome, China, and to a slightly lesser degree India influence each other into becoming millennial outstanding success stories as civilizations and empires all the way to modern superpower status, sometimes being competitors or rivals, sometimes being mirrors and analogues, but always being well aware of each other. Wonder where there mega projects Rome was planning to build but never got around to and also how long before Rome would go explore and discover the New World.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 23, 2017 18:00:29 GMT
Good and interesting questions. To address them I'd better check my TL draft and notes. Given my geopolitical leanings, successful Rome is one of my most preferred AH scenarioes ever and I've had a TL draft about it for some time. It covers in some detail Roman history in the first millennium CE (although it abstracts out all the dynastic stuff, which I'm terrible to grasp and write about) and the final state of the world in the Information Age. I've not yet finished it since I lacked time and focus to fully revise it according to evolving ideas and I have a writer's block about the missing stuff (non-Roman history, events in the second millennium). However I have notes and ideas.
I'm also uncertain whether the Roman and Chinese colonies in the New World remain bound to their empires for all time or an equivalent of the Atlantic Revolutions eventually occurs to create analogues of the USA, California, and Brazil. I also read another TL where the Roman Empire successfully pursues the 'Sahara Sea' project in Classical times and radically changes the landscape of northern Africa. I've been rather uncertain if the idea is truly realistic for premodern technology and whether to incorporate the idea in my own TL. Nagging doubt on this issue is part of the reasons why I made this thread.
Anyway, according to my TL draft and notes, Rome achieves its Renaissance stage of evolution in the 10th-11th century CE and engages in global exploration and colonization. Discovery of the Americas naturally occurs in this period through exploration of the Vinland route and the ever-ambitious Romans engage in extensive colonization of the new continent as soon as they notice its true nature and value. A repetition of Colombus' lucky blunder is neither necessary nor likely since Rome has all the access to sea trade routes with India and China it may ever need.
To be fair, at the time Rome is also more or less busy with the final conquest and pacification of rump Persia and Axum and first undergoing the colonization of Sarmatia in earnest, as its Gothic kingdoms suffer an analogue of the collapse of Kievan Rus. But I'm entirely confident this version of Rome has the resources and organization to wage colonization of Russia and the Americas at the same time. OTL Europe did colonize the Americas and half of Asia with an arm tied behind its back from its endless wars and the conflict with Islam. Here Roman Europe has its resources multiplied by greater extension, imperial unity, and Roman organization and skill, so it can do much more. It is also just as imperialist and greedy, although thankfully with no ethnic racism.
As it concerns premodern megaprojects, in my TL Rome renovates/builds the Suez Canal and achieves borders at the Vistula-Dniester line, Persian deserts, and outskirts of Ethiopian highlands in the 1st-2nd century CE. Settlement of conquered territories and extension of the Roman road network through them starts in this period and is completed in the following two centuries.
Once it fully recovers from the 3rd century crisis and engages in a fairly extensive set of domestic reforms to deal with the problems it revealed, Rome starts in the 4th century to build a canal network to link the major rivers of Western-Central Europe and the Med with the North Sea, which is completed to the Vistula-Dniester line in the following two centuries.
The Romans start building some fortifications on the new Eastern border once it is stabilized and it basically stands (barring a few minor adjustments and occasional breakouts of the steppe nomads) until Rome is ready to engage in colonization of Sarmatia. However they undergo construction of the real 'Great Limes' to rival the Great Wall after they repel a massive breakout of the steppe nomads (TTL equivalent of the Huns) in the 5th century. The crisis also drives them to annex the Bosporus kingdom and move the eastern border to the Neman-Western Bug-Southern Bug line, and the European canal network is of course expanded to reach the new border.
The Romans are intermittently at war with Sarmatian steppe nomads, the Gothic kingdoms gradually forming in Russia-Ukraine, Persia, Axum, and Norse raiders throughout the first millennium. These conflicts and the occasional bouts of serious domestic strife and disunion give them headaches and pause but they always overcome them and get the upper hand or fully recover in the end.
In the meanwhile Rome gradually evolves into a thriving proto-capitalist High Middle Ages/Islamic Golden Age civilization with no feudalism, marginalizes slavery, colonizes Arabia, and cuts down Persia and Axum from rivals to nuisances, preparing for their final conquest. In the meanwhile it also achieves religious peace and unity by developing a syncretic and philosophically sophisticated analogue of Hinduism as its dominant religion with an important Buddhist minority, and wiping out hostile and disruptive Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrism within its territories (remnants survive but are pushed in the depths of the steppes, Africa, and Asia).
It also develops a Senate elected by the empire's elites, a written constitution and succession law, a check-and-balances system and power-sharing balance between the Emperor, the Senate, the army, the civil service, and the landed trading elites. The foreign conflicts and the very extension of the empire inspire the Romans to develop truly ocean-worthy naval technology and an extensive optical telegraph system in the 8th-9th centuries to improve their logistic issues. However Roman naval technology was already good enough to allow extensive trade, cultural exchanges, and diplomatic contacts between Rome, the Indian kingdoms, and China since the beginning of the first millennium.
So Rome and China are entirely aware of each other as sister empires and civilizations since their first Principate and Han flourishing. They later become rival superpowers (with unifying India as the third competitor) after they both develop a global reach with early modern tech, but in this period they are distant and separate enough their relations are friendly.
Admittedly I did not give thought or explicit coverage to the other premodern megaprojects quoted in the OP when I wrote my TL. But my reasoned guess is the Romans do notice the value of the qanat system soon after they conquer Mesopotamia and western Persia, and gradually but eagerly spread it to all the other arid regions of their empire to maximize their value. It is pretty much the same way they devise and spread the heavy plough across northern Europe to fully exploit it soon after they conquer and pacify Germania and Dacia. As it concerns the Kiel canal in all likelihood they build it as part of the European canal system in mid first millennium, or at least as a reaction to the Norse problem in late first millennium. As it concerns the Corinth Canal, no good reason why they can't do it in the 1st century as they attempted to do IOTL, since the PoD is more or less in Caesar's or August's reign. I suppose explicit mention of these events is one more I should deal with in my eventual TL revision.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 23, 2017 18:01:39 GMT
Good and interesting questions. To address them I'd better check my TL notes. Given my geopolitical leanings, successful Rome is one of my most preferred AH scenarioes and I've had a TL draft about it for some time. It covers in some detail Roman history in the first millennium CE (although it abstracts out all the dynastic stuff, which I'm terrible to grasp and write about) and the final state of the world in the Information Age. I've not yet finished it since I lacked time and focus to fully revise it according to evolving ideas and I have a writer's block about the missing stuff (non-Roman history, events in the second millennium). However I have notes and ideas. I'm also uncertain whether the American and Chinese colonies in the New World remain bound to their empires for all times or an equivalent of the Atlantic Revolutions eventually occurs to create analogues of the USA, California, and Brazil. I also read another TL where the Roman Empire successfully pursues the 'Sahara Sea' project in Classical times and radically changes the landscape of northern Africa. I've been rather uncertain if the idea is truly realistic and whether to incorporate the idea in my own TL. Anyway, according to my TL draft and notes, Rome achieves its Renaissance stage of evolution in the 10th-11th century CE and engages in global exploration and colonization. Discovery and start of colonization of the Americas naturally occurs in this period through exploration of the Vinland route, the ever-ambitious Romans engage in extensive colonization of the new continent as soon as they notice its true value. A repetition of Colombus' lucky blunder is neither necessary nor likely, Rome has all the access to sea trades with India and China it may ever need. To be fair, at the time Rome is also more or less engaging in the final conquest and pacification of the rumps of Persia and Axum/Ethiopia, and also first undergoing the colonization of Sarmatia in earnest, as its Gothic kingdoms suffer an analogue of the collapse of Kievan Rus. But I'm entirely confident this version of Rome has the resources and organization to wage colonization of Russia and the Americas at the same time. OTL Europe did colonize the Americas and half of Asia with an arm tied behind its back from its endless wars and the conflict with Islam. Here Roman Europe has its resources magnified by greater extension, imperial unity, and Roman organization and skill, so it can do much more. It is also just as imperialist, although thankfully with no ethnic racism. As it concerns premodern megaprojects, in my TL Rome renovates/builds the Suez Canal and achieves borders at the Vistula-Dniester line, Persian deserts, and outskirts of Ethiopian highlands in the 1st-2nd century CE. Settlement of conquered territories and extension of the Roman road network through them starts in this period and is completed in the following two centuries. Once it fully recovers from the 3rd century crisis and engages in a fairly extensive set of domestic reforms to deal with the problems it revealed, Rome starts in the 4th century to build a canal network to link the major rivers of Europe and the Med with the North Sea, which is completed to the Vistula-Dniester line in the following two centuries. The Romans start building some fortifications on the new Eastern border once it is stabilized and it basically stands (barring a few minor adjustments and occasional breakouts of the steppe nomads) until Rome is ready to engage in colonization of Sarmatia. However they undergo construction of the real 'Great Limes' to rival the Great Wall after they repel a massive breakout of the steppe nomads (TTL equivalent of the Huns) in the 5th century. The crisis also drives them to annex the Bosporus kingdom and move the eastern border to the Neman-Western Bug-Southern Bug line, and the European canal network is of course expanded to reach the new border. The Romans are intermittently at war with Sarmatian steppe nomads, the Gothic kingdoms gradually forming in Russia-Ukraine, Persia, Axum, and Norse raiders through the second half of the millennium. These conflicts and the occasional phase of serious domestic strife and disunion give them headaches and pause but they always overcome and get the upper hand or fully recover in the end. In the meanwhile Rome gradually evolves into a thriving proto-capitalist High Middle Ages/Islamic Golden Age civilization, marginalizes slavery, colonizes Arabia, and cuts down Persia and Axum from rivals to nuisances, perparing for their final conquest. In the meanwhile it also achieves religious unity by developing a syncretic and philosophically sophisticated analogue of Hinduism, and wiping out Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrism within its territories (remnants survive but are pushed in the depths of Africa and Asia). It also develops a Senate elected by the empire's elites, a written constitution and succession law, a check-and-balances system and power-sharing balance between the Emperor, the Senate, the army, the civil service, and the landed and trading elites. The foreign conflicts and the very extension of the empire inspire the Romans to develop truly ocean-worthy naval technology and an extensive optical telegraph system in the 8th-9th centuries to improve their logistic issues. However Roman naval technology was good enough to allow extensive trade, cultural exchanges, and diplomatic contacts between Rome, the Indian kingdoms, and China since the beginning of the first millennium. So Rome and China are entirely aware of each other as sister empires and civilizations since their first Principate and Han flourishing. They later become rival superpowers (with unifying India as the third competitor) after they both develop a global reach with early modern tech, but in this period they are distant and separate enough their relations are friendly. Admittedly I did not give thought or explicit coverage to the other premodern megaprojects quoted in the OP when I wrote my TL. But my reasoned guess is the Romans do notice the value of the qanat system soon after they conquer Mesopotamia and western Persia, and gradually but eagerly spread it to all the other arid regions of their empire, pretty much the same way they devise and spread the heavy plough across northern Europe soon after they conquer and pacify Germania and Dacia. As it concerns the Kiel canal in all likelihood they build it as part of the European canal system in mid millennium, or at least as a reaction to the Norse problem in late millennium. As it concerns the Corinth Canal, no good reason why they can't do it in the 1st century as they attempted to do IOTL, since the PoD is more or less in Caesar's or August's reign. I suppose explicit mention of these events is one more I should deal with in my eventual TL revision. So in China could become a major rival to Rome.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Aug 23, 2017 20:15:06 GMT
Absolutely yes. A basic premise of my TL is steady contact since Principate/Han times creates a virtuous imitation/competition dynamic between Rome and China that helps both empires overcome their flaws and evolve into industrialized superpowers. India eventually unites and joins the game because frankly it is the only way the Indians can avoid colonization by the imperialist Romans past a point. E.g. the example of China inspires Rome to create an extensive professional civil service to help checking the problem of military anarchy (other reforms also deal with this). To be fair, OTL Rome eventually did something similar in Byzantium, so it had homegrown potential for this on its own, but here it goes even further thanks to foreign example, and also because Rome suffers no decline and the Germanic, Slav, and Arab peoples are conquered and turned into a resource long before they can become a threat. Much the same way, steady contact with Rome inspires China to shake out Confucian stasis and complacence, and become just as interested in expansion, trade, and progress as Roman Europe. Because of geography, its expansion unfolds in Central Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, Oceania, and the western coast of the Americas. Korea, Japan, and Indochina are conquered and absorbed by an expanding China, and there is no 'Divine Wind' to save Japan ITTL, so in due time Seoul, Kyoto, Saigon, and Bangkok become as Chinese as Beijing, Nanjing, or Canton.
Of course, geopolitical factors make Central Asia, Siberia, the Malay Archipelago, and Australasia potential contested lands between Rome, China, and India, and the outcome may vary depending on military, diplomatic, and colonial variables. My best guess is borders and spheres of influence in these areas may shift back and forth considerably over time in these areas. Geography gives a vast colonization advantage in the Americas to Rome east of the Great Divide and to China west of it, so I expect that becomes the final demarcation line between the two empires in the Americas, give or take a few adjustments. The Neolithic or Bronze Age Pre-Columbian civilizations simply don't have a snowball's chance in Hell to resist Roman or Chinese colonization given the massive technological, organization, and demographic (even more so after disease does its grim job) gap with the Early Modern Eurasian empires. The Romans acknowledge the Chinese and the Indians as worthy equals with a lot of interesting ideas in terms of power and sophistication and are fine with making the Amerindians dark-skinned citizens of the empire, but have no respect for weaker and backward 'barbarian' cultures. Moreover, the enthusiasm for human sacrifice of several Pre-Columbian cultures in all likelihood freaks out the Romans in thinking they are doing the world a favor by wiping them out.
Climate and disease prevent the Romans from doing any extensive penetration in the western half of Sub-Saharan Africa for most of their history, so they make themselves content with some trade and indirect influence projecting from coastal outposts or the other side of the Sahara, and this quite possibly builds up a lasting precedent. Thanks to the Suez Canal and their control of the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf they also have no use for circumnavigation of Africa as a route to reach Asia, so the western side of Africa is marginal to their global interests. A possible exception for the same reasons may be East Africa and Southern Africa, since these regions are much more favorable to extensive European settlement than the rest of the continent, and the eastern coast of Africa is easy to reach from Roman lands, so Roman colonization of the area may well occur if the Romans are not too busy and/or sated with colonization elsewhere. Geography also makes the Asian empires not likely to get interested in colonization of Africa, again with the possible exception of India and eastern-southern Africa. So Sub-Saharan Africa is the most likely region of this world to see the rise of important polities that survive assimilation or utter domination by the Eurasian superpowers, although any African polity shall always be a midget to them. The other area of the world where indipendent polities are likely to arise and survive as buffer states is the friction zones between the spheres of influence of the empires, especially if they are of low value.
Of course, Rome and China (and after unification, India) remain vulnerable to dynastic cycles, although past a point evolution into early modernity and industrialization snuffs them out. My TL's calculations expect Rome to achieve the Renaissance stage by the turn of the first millennium, and remain as dynamic as OTL Europe. China achieves pretty much the same level of dynamism in its own sphere. So we may expect TTL Eurasian empires and their colonies achieve industrialization by the half of the second millennium, and the Information Age by its last quarter. China and Rome are also expected to develop gunpowder on schedule by the beginning of the second millennium, which marks the point the steppe nomads turn from perennial nuisance and occasional serious threat into insignificant and powerless target for conquest. Even before that, the better shape of Rome and China means they suffer less damage from nomad breakouts (e.g. Rome pushes back the equivalent of the Huns with some effort).
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