simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 9, 2017 17:49:45 GMT
OTL Louis XIV reigned for 72 years. While poor Holland became extremely powerful and rich in the 17th century thanks to investing most of its capital in war and cargo ships and Britain did the same in the 18th century, Louis wasted astronomical amounts building and expanding Versailles (at times hiring so many as 40,000 workers), transporting fully grown trees across France to Versailles, throwing ridiculously expensive parties, etc, and fighting Spain, Austria, etc, for slender or no gains.
ATL Louis XIV is more concerned about France than about himself. He realizes that France, Spain, Austria, Naples, Sweden, Russia, Sardinia, Genoa, etc, have wasted fortunes and huge armies fighting each other for centuries for small territorial gains and limited trade. In contrast, small Portugal, Holland and Britain have become trade empires with a few troops and mediocre navies invading and defending large territories and long trade routes. France, Russia, etc, have ruined their economies and populations, benefitting the Ottoman, Portuguese, Dutch and British empires. Moroccan, Algerian and Tunisian pirate states, etc,
Louis realizes that ships of the line are obsolete and exceedingly expensive ans slow to build, so he opts to build frigates, sloops, schooners, etc, which can out sail and escape ships of the line, escort merchant ships, sink enemy frigates, sloops, etc, and capture or sink enemy merchant ships
Accordingly, Louis convinces Russia, Austria, Spain, Sweden, Denmark, Naples, etc, to build a massive coalition navy (France will build 300 frigates and 400 sloops, schooners, etc, Russia will build 200 frigates and 280 sloops, schooners, etc, Spain will build 160 frigates and 200 sloops, schooners, etc, Austria will build 100 frigates and 150 sloops, schooners, etc, and so on) and army to first liberate the Balkans and raise more troops there to wipe out the Ottoman empire, Morocco, Algeria and Persia. The coalition will further expand its navy and merchant fleets with captured Ottoman ships and shipyards (in Egypt, Greece, Turkey, Syria-Lebanon, etc,). When Constantinople falls, the Russian Black Sea fleet will enter the Mediterranean.
Then the coalition will wipe out the British, Portuguese and Dutch navies, invade Portugal and liberate Ireland. With the help of Irish troops, the coalition will invade Wales and occupy the former Hadrian Wall from both coasts to divide Scotland from England. Coalition warships will capture British, Portuguese and Dutch merchant ships and sail them to Ireland, Spain, France, Denmark and Wales. Coalition warships will attack English and Scotish ports and coastal towns and cities. Finally, the coalition will invade England from Ireland, Wales and France and it will invade Holland and share the colonies of Portugal, Britain and Holland.
6 years after defeating Britain, Holland and Portugal and occupying their colonies, the French and Russian navies and armies are truly formidable (France has shipyards in North America, Ceylon, India, the East Indies, Angola, Brazil, Mozambique, the former Ottoman provinces, etc,). The coalition expels Spain and takes over all Spanish colonies, except New Granada (excluding Panama, which is occupied by France to transport people and goods between the 2 oceans). The coalition takes over the Philippines and Guam from the East Indies. It also invades Formosa, Manchuria, Thailand, Japan, Korea, etc, with indian, French and Russian troops
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2017 18:02:47 GMT
OTL Louis XIV reigned for 72 years. While poor Holland became extremely powerful and rich in the 17th century thanks to investing most of its capital in war and cargo ships and Britain did the same in the 18th century, Louis wasted astronomical amounts building and expanding Versailles (at time hiring so manya s 40,000 workers), transporting fully grown trees across France to versailles, throwing ridiculously expensive parties, etc, and fighting Spain, Austria, etc, for slender or o gains. Was France not under Louis' reign,the leading European power. |
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 9, 2017 18:59:28 GMT
lordroel, Louis XIV inherited the strongest economy, industry, science, etc, in the world and his squandering allowed Holland and Britain to take turns expanding and ruling the seas with much less cost in lives and money than Louis' unproductive campaigns. Louis not only ruined his economy, by squandering and allying himself with the Ottomans, he ruined Austria, Russia, Persia, etc, and by defeating Spain, he started its downfall. He ruined the econmies, navies, armies and populations of most of Europe, in favor of the Ottomans, British, Dutch, Portuguese, Prussians, Moroccans, Algerians, etc,
ATL Louis XIV realizes that the only way his American colonies can thrive is to promote migration of hundreds of thousands from France and her allies, to build ships, produce lumber, pelts, sugar, tobacco, steel, glass, furniture, lead, etc,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2017 19:07:27 GMT
lordroel, Louis XIV inherited the strongest economy, industry, science, etc, in the world and his squandering allowed Holland and Britain to take turns expanding and ruling the seas with much less cost in lives and money than Louis' unproductive campaigns. Louis not only ruined his economy, by squandering and allying himself with the Ottomans, he ruined Austria, Russia, Persia, etc, and by defeating Spain, he started its downfall. He ruined the econmies, navies, armies and populations of most of Europe, in favor of the Ottomans, British, Dutch, Portuguese, Prussians, Moroccans, Algerians, etc, ATL Louis XIV realizes that the only way his American colonies can thrive is to promote migration of hundreds of thousands from France and her allies, to build ships, produce lumber, pelts, sugar, tobacco, steel, glass, furniture, lead, etc, So you want him to stop spending on himself and spend on enlarging his army and navy. |
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 10, 2017 18:02:36 GMT
lordroel,
ATL wasting less, investing more in the navy, merchant fleet, industry, trade, the army and making alliances to acquire invaluable Ottoman territories, colonies in the far east, etc, It is hard to believe that the tiny specks of land that France owned in the Caribbean produced enough sugar to impact the French economy (although they were much smaller than British or Spanish Caribbean colonies). It is also hard to believe that millions of Frenchmen, Spaniards, Austrians, Russians, etc, died in pointeless wars during Louis XIV's exceedingly long reign, only a few tens of thousands of Frenchmen migrated to the colonies.
Among Louis' blunders OTL:
The alliance with the Ottomans and refusal of Peter the Great's request for an alliance to wipe out the Ottoman empire, resulted in Ottoman expansion into the Balkans Since Peter did not concentrate on the Ottoman empire in the coalition that ATL Louis is forming (with Russia, Austria, France, Sweden, etc,), OTL Peter wiped out the Swedish army in Poltava (the Swedish king taking refuge in Ottoman lands), instead of both armies helping France and Austria to rapidly eliminate Europe's Ottoman scourge.
Louis set the fashion of ridiculous spending, which Tsars, other Bourbons, Habsburgs, etc, imitated with their limited economies, ruining them. Had he set the example of investing in strong navies, industry, etc, Peter and many other leaders would have created strong navies, armies and economies, invaluable for the coalition to expand European power worldwide.
It is ironic that when one talks about pirates, people automatically think of Drake, Raleigh and caribbean lowlives, when actually Muslim pirate raids terrorized the coasts of Britain, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, etc, for centuries. Captured hundreds of ships and enslaved or extracted ransom from thousands of Christians. Jefferson had to bribe them repeatedly and lost one of his few, expensive frigates to them.
Louis spent more in his impressive party to celebrate the victory over Spain, than on the ridiculous pensions for the families of the fallen and wounded in the campaign. By destroying the Spanish navy, Louis ruined his only hope to defeat the rapidly growing English fleet.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 10, 2017 18:13:56 GMT
When the coalition takes over the Philippines, Peru, etc, Louis greatly expands the Manila trade to several galleons per year. Louis persuades India to Join the coalition to invade China, Japan, Mongolia, Thailand, etc, together
The French fkleet discovers Hawaii in 1706 and invades it. Hawaii becomes and invaluable stepping stone for the Panama galleon, en route to Guam.
Sulfur from Sumatra, nitrate from Peru and the finest coal allow France to produce huge amounts of excellent quality gunpowder, which it sells to the rest of the world. The same sulphutr allows the French chemical industry to produce huge amounts of sulfuric acid and grow rapidly. French chemist discover nitrocellulose in 1709 (smokeless powder), which proved invaluable for the armed forces.
The French navy starts cladding the bottom of its new hulls with brass sheets (made with Chinese Zinc and copper from Britain, Chile, the New Spain, etc,)
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 10, 2017 18:53:31 GMT
Simpleton
Your saying instead of being an egomaniac warmonger he should be a manipulative warmonger?
You mention an alliance of France, Austria, Spain, Russia, Sweden, Denmark and Naples + others. When Louis achieves his majority and takes power Europe is still recovering from the 30 Years War, in the latter stages of which France broke much of Spanish military power in Europe and also supplied money and then its own men to prevents the Austrian Hapsburg's from unifying the HRE so neither of those are likely to be willing to trust France very much.
Russia at this stage only has a port on the Arctic at Arkhangelsk so is unlikely to be capable of building much of a fleet. Also it is still markedly weaker than the Ottoman empire and has only relatively recently resisted an attempt to put a Polish prince on the throne of Moscow. Its in no position to launch a major offensive against the Ottomans, even if powers further west also attack them.
Sweden and Denmark are bitter enemies. Also, with Sweden dominant at the moment Denmark is primarily aiming for survival. Sweden is seeking to secure its position as the dominant Protestant power in north and central Europe and also engaged in bitter conflict with Poland, which also has a Vasa monarchy at the time, seriously crippling Polish power in the longer run.
Naples was a Spanish ruled client kingdom at this point, although France had also had a claim to the province.
There is no way without ASB intervention you are going to have this combination of powers committing to a long term alliance, including build up sizeable naval forces and engaging in a war to annihilate the Ottoman empire. Especially since powers such as Sweden and Denmark and to a large degree France would have little to gain from such a conflict. It would be difficult for any of those powers to gain major territories and hold them whereas nearer states are likely to benefit more from such a conflict.
France might gain more from the planned attacks on Britain and the Netherlands but similarly the other powers have little or nothing to gain from such a conflict and much to lose as now it would be largely France that makes the vast majority of the gains. Spain might want to regain control of Portugal, which it ruled between 1580 and 1640 IIRC but it would probably realise that the effort would be more costly than the probable benefits. Also if its been spending a decade or so building up this alliance against the Ottomans and then probably at least another waging such a war of destruction then France is going to pay a lot of money and other resources, while the maritime powers will have time to develop their own colonies and overseas empires so even if France gets some support from its continental 'allies' its not going to be east sailing for the French empire.
Also an autocratic monarch like Louis XIV is unlikely to support the sort of economic reforms which would tend to weaken the power of the monarchy, or to see large numbers of settlers moving to the Americas, putting them to a large degree outside control of the monarchy. Even if he avoids his OTL religious bigotry.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 13, 2017 19:06:38 GMT
Somebody erased most of my intital post and wrote oops betwenn.
stevep:
I fail to see anything about being manipulate, because Louis XIV chooses to wipe out and share the Ottoman empire and save millions of European lives, instead pf perpetrating war amongst Europeans. Most kings were Warmongers at the time, they just fought pointless wars.
Your reasoning that Louis cannot forge a European coalition, instead of squanderin fortunes and millions of European lives and favoring the Ottoman with an alliance and ruining European monarchs. missed the point of the thread, which is that all Europe (civilized, progressive, Christian nations) benefits enormously form uniting and wipíng out and sharing the Ottoman empire.
All Europe benefits if Britain falls, for that allows other nations to expand in Asia, America, South Africa, etc,
The British, Protuguese, Dutch, French and Spanish colonial empires were doomed and exceeded their useful lives only thanks to the fact that France, Russia, etc, wasted fortunes in buildings, parties, jewels, art, etc, instead of building navies proportionate to their wealth, population and resources. The obsolete empire all had small navies and land forces to defend their colonies in Louis XIV's time. They got away with too much territory and too many subjects for too long.
Phillip II invaded and ruled Portugal for a short while (when Portugal complained that the Philippines were in hemisphere given to Portugal by the Pope) and give it back long before the 1640 you mentioned.
Louis, Britain, Europe, America, etc, were extremely lucky that while Europe was busy destroying itself, the Muslims (Ottomans, Indians,Moroccans, etc,) did not realize that if they united and invested most of their funds in the largest navy in the world (and they could certainly build a much larger navy than the RN), they could wipe out the RN and rule the world.
The fortunes and the tens of thousands of laborers building, expanding, modifying, supplying (water, materials, trees, etc,), maintaining and operating Versailles for decades could have built a formidable navy. The hundreds of thousands of Russians building St Petersbourg and its luxurious palaces, churches, nobles' mansions, etc, could have built a huge navy. These navies and the formidable European armies (reinforced by liberated Balkan troops) would have wiped out the Ottomans in a year. Russia could sail its Black Sea fleet into the Med as soon as the Bosphorus falls.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 13, 2017 19:18:18 GMT
Somebody erased most of my intital post and wrote oops betwenn. did not erase anything, only shorten the post as the was to much blank space in it. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 13, 2017 22:36:46 GMT
simpleton
I'll try one final attempt to point out to you that your talking about a complex alliance between a number of powers with often differing aims and interests to basically conquer most of the world, including large amounts of Europe. What you propose, as well as being highly impractical would probably mean more blood being shed than OTL.
Steve
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 14, 2017 21:21:55 GMT
When ATL France has the strongest navy and army in the world in 1660 (much greater than poor Holland's OTL navy and tiny army, which trounced the RN in Medway, etc,), it is easy for France to forge a coalition. Any ally that France can entice or coax into the coalition strengthens it and makes it easier to entice or caox other nations and so on.
For example:
ATL n 1660 Louis has no Versailles, parties, jewels, etc, but he does have more shipyards than poor Holland, a much larger fleet and
England was ruined by the recent civil war and quite weak, Holland was rapidly expanding its war and commercial fleet. Ireland hated the English after Cromwell's ruthless invasion. Protestants were moving in from Scotland.
Louis liberates Ireland (deports all protestants to New France to avoid a massacre and help settle Louisiana) and invades England from Calais, Boulogne, etc, and wales and Scotland from Ireland, reinforced by Irish troops.
Now Louis uses the shipyards in Ireland and Britain to enlarge his fleet and the Industry of Britian to make cannon, muskets, etc, Louis deports 1/5 of the young population of Britain to sparsely populated colonies.
In 1661 Louis issues an ultimatum to Spain, Poland, Denmark, Holland and Sweden to join a coalition to invade and share the Ottoman empire, Persia, etc, or be at war with France, lose all ships and be invaded at home and in the colonies after a month.
To drive home the message, France occupies Iceland, the Faroe islands, seizes Dutch and Spanish merchant ships loaded with expensive cargo from the colonies and blockades the Baltic and the main Spanish, Danish and Dutch ports. After a week, Spain and Denmark join the coalition, opening the Baltic to the French fleet. On the 10th day Sweden joins it. Poland knows that if France lands in the Baltic it will be curtains for Poland and it wants colonies in the Ottoman empire and protection against its neighbors so Poland joins on the 16th day. On the 19th day Holland is losing considerable trade, merchandise and ships and it knows that it cannot do much against the French fleet, much less against the coalition, so it joins the coalition to liberate the Balkans, expand into Ottoman, Persian, Moroccan territory. Then Austria and Russia receive an ultimatum to join the coalition, which will provide armament and training for Russian troops and gunpowder, ships to transport troops, etc, for Austria. or be invaded by the mighty coalition. Russia has no ports on the Baltic and thw Ottomans rule the Black Sea and the Russian army is primitive and has few cannon and muskets and fears the Poles. Russia joins the coalition, which leaves Austria in an even worse situation, so it also joins.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2017 3:05:24 GMT
When ATL France has the strongest navy and army in the world in 1660 (much greater than poor Holland's OTL navy and tiny army, which trounced the RN in Medway, etc,), it is easy for France to forge a coalition. Any ally that France can entice or coax into the coalition strengthens it and makes it easier to entice or caox other nations and so on. For example: ATL n 1660 Louis has no Versailles, parties, jewels, etc, but he does have more shipyards than poor Holland, a much larger fleet and England was ruined by the recent civil war and quite weak, Holland was rapidly expanding its war and commercial fleet. Ireland hated the English after Cromwell's ruthless invasion. Protestants were moving in from Scotland. Louis liberates Ireland (deports all protestants to New France to avoid a massacre and help settle Louisiana) and invades England from Calais, Boulogne, etc, and wales and Scotland from Ireland, reinforced by Irish troops. Now Louis uses the shipyards in Ireland and Britain to enlarge his fleet and the Industry of Britian to make cannon, muskets, etc, Louis deports 1/5 of the young population of Britain to sparsely populated colonies. In 1661 Louis issues an ultimatum to Spain, Poland, Denmark, Holland and Sweden to join a coalition to invade and share the Ottoman empire, Persia, etc, or be at war with France, lose all ships and be invaded at home and in the colonies after a month. To drive home the message, France occupies Iceland, the Faroe islands, seizes Dutch and Spanish merchant ships loaded with expensive cargo from the colonies and blockades the Baltic and the main Spanish, Danish and Dutch ports. After a week, Spain and Denmark join the coalition, opening the Baltic to the French fleet. On the 10th day Sweden joins it. Poland knows that if France lands in the Baltic it will be curtains for Poland and it wants colonies in the Ottoman empire and protection against its neighbors so Poland joins on the 16th day. On the 19th day Holland is losing considerable trade, merchandise and ships and it knows that it cannot do much against the French fleet, much less against the coalition, so it joins the coalition to liberate the Balkans, expand into Ottoman, Persian, Moroccan territory. Then Austria and Russia receive an ultimatum to join the coalition, which will provide armament and training for Russian troops and gunpowder, ships to transport troops, etc, for Austria. or be invaded by the mighty coalition. Russia has no ports on the Baltic and thw Ottomans rule the Black Sea and the Russian army is primitive and has few cannon and muskets and fears the Poles. Russia joins the coalition, which leaves Austria in an even worse situation, so it also joins. Could you when post make sure that you flll up the blank space in a post, had to edit one of your post again, it does not look nice when somebody sees a empty post that is longer than the post itself. |
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 15, 2017 18:21:45 GMT
Sorry, I didn't realize there was a lotof empty space.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 15, 2017 18:25:07 GMT
Sorry, I didn't realize there was a lotof empty space. Well it is no more, but be careful next time you post. Also why do you assume Holland is poor. |
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 16, 2017 17:22:27 GMT
Lordroel, On the first paragraph I wrote "While poor Holland became extremely powerful and rich in the 17th century thanks to investing most of its capital in war and cargo ships and Britain did the same in the 18th century, Louis wasted astronomical amounts building and expanding Versailles (at times hiring so many as 40,000 workers), transporting fully grown trees across France to Versailles, throwing ridiculously expensive parties, etc, and fighting Spain, Austria, etc, for slender or o gains". Read more: alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/1282/louis-longest-wasteful-monarch-history#ixzz4pwBgjBuPHolland was quite poor and had a much smaller territory and population compared to France in 1600. Yet by investing in war and merchant fleets throughout the 17th century, while France squandered fortunes. Even Fouquet's private fleet had more ships than the ridiculous French navy! a completely absurd situation. When Louis XIV vanished Fouquet and confiscated most of his property, the dummy stopped expanding the confiscated fleet and the navy, in favor of Versaille, parties, art, jewels, a huge army, pointless, long and poorly led wars (often with phyrrhic victories), etc, It is difficult to believe that starting with Solebay, the Dutch could always check or defeat the combined Anglo-French fleet, although Holland had fewer people, industry, lumber for ships, etc, than either England or France. Louis was so incompetent that despite having a 400,000 men army (plus allied English and German troops) when he invaded unprepared Holland in 1672, the dummy could not take it and allowed the Dutch to flood the countray and receive reinforcements from Austria, Spain, etc, Only after the huge army stalled in flooded fields, did the invaders consider attacking by sea, instead of attacking simultaneously by sea and land. Thus Holland could concentrate its few men to fight only on land at first and then to fight only at sea, until help arrived. The rise of Holland in the 17th century, despite numerous, wealthy, larger and less competetent rivals is not unlike the rise of Israel, despite Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Arabia, etc, in the second half of the 20th century. The rise of Attila and later Vandal North Africa as a land and sea power under Geiserick, despite Rome and Constantinople are also similar. |
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