lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 16, 2017 17:33:45 GMT
Lordroel, On the first paragraph I wrote "While poor Holland became extremely powerful and rich in the 17th century thanks to investing most of its capital in war and cargo ships and Britain did the same in the 18th century, Louis wasted astronomical amounts building and expanding Versailles (at time hiring so manya s 40,000 workers), transporting fully grown trees across France to versailles, throwing ridiculously expensive parties, etc, and fighting Spain, Austria, etc, for slender or o gains". Read more: alternate-timelines.proboards.com/thread/1282/louis-longest-wasteful-monarch-history#ixzz4pwBgjBuPHolland was quite poor and had a much amller territory and population compared to France in 1600. Yet by investing in war and merchant fleets throughout the 17th century, while France squandered fortunes. Even Fouquet's private fleet had more ships than the ridiculous French navy! a completely absurd situation. When Louis XIV vanished Fouquet and confiscated most of his property, the dummy stopped expanding the confiscated fleet and the navy, in favor of Versaille, parties, art, jewels, a huge army, pointless, long and poorly led wars (often with phyrrhic victories), etc, It is difficult to believe that starting with Solebay, the Dutch could always check or defeat the combined Anglo-French fleet, although Holland had fewer people, industry, lumber for ships, etc, than either England or France. Louis was so incompetent that despite having a 400,000 men army (plus allied English and German troops) when he invaded unprepared Holland in 1672, the dummy could not take it and allowed the Dutch to flood the countray and receive reinforcements from Austria, Spain, etc, Only after the huge army stalled in flooded fields, did the invaders consider attacking by sea, instead of attacking simultaneously by sea and land. Thus Holland could concentrate its few men to fight only on land at first and then to fight only at sea, until help arrived. The rise of Holland in the 17th century, despite numerous, wealthy, larger and less competetent rivals is not unlike the rise of Israel, despite Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Arabia, etc, in the second half of the 20th century. The rise of Attila and later Vandal North Africa as a land and sea power under Geiserick, despite Rome and Constantinople are also similar. So you say one french king who does not spend money on himself but on the country can make a difference.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 17, 2017 16:10:03 GMT
Certainly, the absolute monarch of a rich and populous kingdom, who instead of using tens of thousands of men to build and expand Versailles over 4 decades and 5,000 people to operate it and wasting fortunes in pointless wars, builds many more ships than Holland and chooses his wars well, makes a huge difference.
I añlready explained that Holland ruled the invaluable DEI with a few thousand men, while Louis wasted tens of thousands of men and horses and many ships fighting Holland, Austria, Spain, etc, simultaneously over 6 years unsuccessfully.
Throughout Louis' long reign only about 36,000 Frenchmen migrated to huge New France (a ridiculous average of 500 per year). In the same time over 300,000 Spaniards (on average over 4,167 per year), over 270,000 Portuguese and over 250,000 Britons and Irish migrated to the Americas. So the largest colonies, those of the most populous nation were barely settled, while the dummy fought for small pieces of land in Europa. Over 100,000 Frenchmen died yearly from tuberculosis, smallpox, malnutrition (peasants having to pay ourageous taxes). Had a half million Frenchmen migrated to New France, they could have built a lot of ships, farm more land than in France, produced a lot of maple syrup, furs, high quality lumber, salt cod, whale oil, etc, and taken over New England and eventually New Spain, Cuba, etc,
For example had France had the largest navy by 1667, when Holland ruined the RN in Medway, France could have easily invaded Ireland (full of hatred for the British at the time) and then Wales and England, reinforced with Irish and Welsh troops. He then could build even more ships, produce more guns, consumer goods, etc, in Britain and Ireland, taken English colonies and trade. He could then easily wipe out the Dutch & Portuguese fleets, take over invaluable and poorly defended DEI, Macao, Goa, Rio, Natal, Manaos, etc, Then Louis could then wait for war to break out between Spain and Austria, wait till it nearly ended and deliver the coup de grace to the weakened loser or try to form a coalition against the Ottoman empire, if that failes, he could have tried an alliance with either Austria or Spain to destroy the remaining power. If that failed, he could have allied himself with Poland or Russia, supplied his ally with arms, munitions and sea transport to defeat Austria together. The worst thing he could do is fight Austria, Holland, Spain, etc, simultaneously(as he did OTL for long years)
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 17, 2017 16:17:32 GMT
Certainly, the absolute monarch of a rich and populous kingdom, who instead of using tens of thousands of men to build and expand Versailles over 4 decades and 5,000 people to operate it and wasting fortunes in pointless wars, builds many more ships than Holland and chooses his wars well, makes a huge difference. I this version of Louis XIV one that still rules himself ore does he allow people to do their things.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 17, 2017 16:32:19 GMT
The Ottoman empire closed the spice route to Europe,which prompted Holland to sail to the far east, which resulted in the conquest fo the DEI and Formosa. It also prompted the Portuguse to send Vasco de Gama to India to establish trade. Spain also started the Manila trade to get access to far east spices, silk, china, etc, Holland, Portugal and Spain made a lot of money from this trade (although Spain only sent a galleon each way per year, while Holland and Portugal up to a dozen some years. Those 3 nations supplied all the spices, silk, etc, to Europe and became wealthy in the process. Had the sun king and his economist Colbert not been so incompetent, they would have used the fact that France was the only European nation allied with the gol, so it was the only one which could have bought spices from the east in Istambul to sell in Europe.
It is incredible that neither Colbert nor Louis realized that a navy, trade, New France, avoiding pointless wars and securing valuable alliances to secure victory is a few, well timed wars were keys to French economic and military prosperity, despite having the Dutch and portuguese examples for achieving a lot with limited resources.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 17, 2017 16:55:21 GMT
lordroel, Without Versailles, Loouis does not sequester the aristocracy (it can do its job ruling efficiently), nor does he need to smother peasantry with ourageous taxes to pay for Versailles' construction, expansion and upkeep, parties, art, etc,. As in Holland and Portugal, the navy and merchant fleet us trade, which brings wealth and taxes to feed back into the navy, cargo ships and trade. With more money, peasants eat better and are more productive than the half starved French peasants OTL, who cannot afford to buy good farming equipment, horses, seeds, potatoes, etc, to grow. With more peasants migrating to New France, There is more land, food and money per peasant in each French territory, so farmers can be more productive. Horses were critical for farming, the army, transportation, mining, pulling boats along canals, etc, New France could have produced enormous numbers of horses to drive its agriculture, etc, and exported horses to France and other colonies. Wool, leather, etc, also had enormous potential in New France.
Transportation is a major limiting factor at the time. Huge tonnages can be moved by sea, rivers, lakes or canals at a low cost. In contrast moving good from the coast, rivers, etc, more than 200 miles inland or vice versa was extremely costly and slow, especially in mountanous regions. By distributing a large part of the population along New France's coast, Great Lakes, the Mississipi, Missouri, Ohio, St Lorence, etc, (as Britain did with New England, Jamaica, Antigua, St Lucia. Spain also did it with Cuba, Santo Domingo, New Spain Coast, Montevideo, Buenos Aires, etc, Portugal did it with the long Braziliand coast, the Amazon, Rio Preto, etc, and with Cape Verde, the Azores, Goa, Angoa, Mozanbique and Macao). far more French subjects gain access to easily transported, less costly goods and can export their produce and products more profitably.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 17, 2017 16:57:55 GMT
lordroel, Without Versailles, Loouis does not sequester the aristocracy (it can do its job ruling efficiently) That is true, also how will the ordinary people see Louis XIV if he is not spending everything on himself.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 17, 2017 17:01:59 GMT
As doing his job of reigning over a country and making it prosper, rather than playing the role of a king in a play.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 17, 2017 22:58:58 GMT
ATL After defeating and taking over the British, Dutch and Portuguese empires, Louis reaches an arrangement with China to built ships for France, which will sail to Pacific America with goods and young Chinese migrants (especially girls) France will pay for the ships and for each migrants. Since women are overabundant, girls are considered a curse in India and China and are invaluable to populate the huge Pacific Americas. 100,000 Chinese and Indians arrive in French colonies within 20 years. Many young Chinese work in Chinese shipyards a few years, when they migrate some work in French shipyards for better wages, some become farmers, horse breeders, sheep ranchers, fishermen, lumberjacks, factory workers (France builds gun, munitions and consumer goods factories in Pacific America, to ensure the Pacific).
In 1773, Louis XIV offers Poland 2 colonies, one on the Mississippi and one in the coast, the size of Poland combined. Provided at least 20,000 young Poles migrate to these colonies and 20,000 to New France, Guiana (now there is only one), the French east Indies, the PI, etc, within 10 years (all 40,000 young Poles transported by France) and Poland pays for its colony and the transportation with Polish grain, ships built in the coastal colony (for each ship built for Poland, another one will be built for France), France providing canvas, etc, for all ships), horses, wool, etc, raised in the colony, minerals, marmelades, etc, that Poland trades only with France, both at home and in its colonies, that Poland produces no sugar for at least 30 years and that Poland and France assist each other in case of war, attacks by natives, rebellions, etc, for the same 30 years. Poland readily accepts the land and alliance with the strongest power on Earth, knowing that Austria and Russia wil not dare to invade it and that Poles in the colonies will be able to thrive, without constant wars against strong neighbors.
The arrangement works so well for both nations, that 10 years later, when France rules quite well the former Spanish colonies, Poland is offered Samar in the PI, Timor in the East Indies, a river bank and a coastal colony in Brazil, their combined area amounting to twice that of Poland. The alliance, exclusive trade agreement with France, etc, are renewed for 30 years.
Poland has also expanded with Ottoman territory (as in the case of France, its colonies far exceed the homeland area) and is very powerful by 1782. Spain has thrived with New Granada (Venezuela & Colombia, the only colony that Louis left it), but its navy is a tiny fraction of France's. Louis induces Spain to join Poland and France to invade and share Russia. India is also persuaded to join the coalition. When France, India, Poland and Spain invade Russia, it collapses rapidly, Russian troops surrendering by the hundreds of thousands. Together, they settle and develop Russia much faster and govern it much better than the Tsar.
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Aug 18, 2017 20:45:28 GMT
It is interesting that OTL while France lost thousands of men invading very small territories around the Rhine, etc, Louis, Colbert and French admirals and generals did not realize the enormous economic and strategic potential of huge, barely settled Texas (very few thousand settlers spread over a huge area in ranches and villages, with extremely few troops, cannon, etc), with far better weather than Canada, a long coast and invaluable as a staging area to invade the rest of the New Spain coast, Cuba, etc,
ATL, shortly before the war to capture all Spanish colonies (except New Granada), the French fleet lands 8,000 settlers-1,000 of them troops in Texas to found a coastal colony (and settlers continue to arrive after the colony is founded). Louis informs Spain of the fait accompli as the landings take place. Louis offers to pay for Texas with 100 merchant ships and to buy from the New Spain and Cuba farm animals, sugar, rum, potatoes, grain, cocoa, cigars, vanilla, products from Manila, etc, for 5 years (while the settlers start producing large amounts). Louis argues that a large territory, with a long coast and temperate weather may entice pirates or a power like Russia to settle its coast. Better to let France secure it and receive some payment.
Spain knows that it doesn't stand a chance against the French fleet and a large number of Frenchmen in Louisianaand that 100 ships and exports are much better than spending a lot in a war, which it cannot win and which may cost an even larger territory and most of the Spanish fleet and all that over distant, extremely sparsely populated territory, which it will not be able to supply or reinforce by sea (it is untenable at the time). It does exchange Texas for 100 ships and exclusive trade with the settlers for 3 years.
in preparation for war against Spain (which will be rather short, as Cuba, Vercruz, Campeche, Merida, Tampico, etc, fall quickly, isolating the New Spain from Spain and forcing it to surrender), French troops, materiel, etc, start arriving in Texas, Jamaica, the ABC islands, French Panama (negro troops to invade Lima, etc,) and Hawaii (to invade Guam and the PI).
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johnro
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Post by johnro on Sept 2, 2017 13:46:22 GMT
Louis XIV, the longest lived and most wasteful monarch in history is not so dumb. really? But historians say that he swore an oath on a book he could not read! Was he degenerate? .. Reims Gospel - "coronation text" -Henry III of France and several of his successors including Louis XIV took their oath on it.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2017 14:01:30 GMT
Louis XIV, the longest lived and most wasteful monarch in history is not so dumb. really? But historians say that he swore an oath on a book he could not read! Was he degenerate? .. Reims Gospel - "coronation text" -Henry III of France and several of his successors including Louis XIV took their oath on it.You mean this text.
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johnro
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Post by johnro on Sept 2, 2017 15:18:30 GMT
exactly. but what if there was a praise of the Antichrist? but could not read ... kings ... funny ... but this is the official "history"
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2017 15:21:25 GMT
exactly. but what if there was a praise of the Antichrist? but could not read ... kings ... funny ... but this is the official "history" What do you mean with if there was a praise of the Antichrist?
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johnro
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Post by johnro on Sept 2, 2017 16:21:10 GMT
I'll try to explain. for example, a text in this book "heretical". perhaps ? Yes. who could have known? stupid assumption ... that they could not read ... and swore ...300 years --------------- I guess that's all fiction
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simpleton
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Post by simpleton on Sept 2, 2017 16:33:17 GMT
lordroel and johnro,
I thought this forum was meant to make arguments, rather than spill BS. My mistake.
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