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Post by voiddragon on Sept 21, 2016 18:08:30 GMT
Basically I had the idea for a timeline in which a Pope decides to gather an army and conquer/unify Europe in the name of Christendom instead of the holy land. How plausible is this? Would large enough numbers of knights betray their kings for the promise of eternal salvation?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 21, 2016 18:10:50 GMT
Basically I had the idea for a timeline in which a Pope decides to gather an army and conquer/unify Europe in the name of Christendom instead of the holy land. How plausible is this? Would large enough numbers of knights betray their kings for the promise of eternal salvation? Depends on who has bigger pockets, the kings ore the pope. |
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Post by voiddragon on Sept 21, 2016 21:39:52 GMT
Basically I had the idea for a timeline in which a Pope decides to gather an army and conquer/unify Europe in the name of Christendom instead of the holy land. How plausible is this? Would large enough numbers of knights betray their kings for the promise of eternal salvation? Depends on who has bigger pockets, the kings ore the pope. That would be a possible issue. Could religion itself be an effective enough motivator for the majority of knights? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 21, 2016 22:14:56 GMT
Depends on who has bigger pockets, the kings ore the pope. That would be a possible issue. Could religion itself be an effective enough motivator for the majority of knights? For some and also politics would come into play. For instance some rulers supported the papacy against the empire simply because they didn't want a centralised and autocratic HRE. The problem would be that once the Papacy really seeks to dominate all secular rulers it would alienate so much of the smaller rulers it reduces drastically the number of allies it can call on. Another option might be that it seeks to raise its own forces. Some equivalent of the Knights Templar for instance but again this would alienate secular rulers and would also be a considerable drain on church funds. The other problem for such a programme was that there was a clear reason for the OTL crusades with the threat of expanionist Islam threatening all states. Presumably Byzantium has its OTL problems with internal divisions resulting in the dramatic success of the Seljuk invasion of Anatolia, then there is still going to be a call to aid the eastern churches and/or liberate the holy land. Furthermore if no anti-Muslim crusades and as a result the Turks and posibly other Muslim groups continue to take over European lands any Pope who ignores that and incites internal conflict is going to come under serious criticism. Similarly, where the western forces are having success before this with the reconquest of southern Iberia and of Sicily those rulers aren't going to welcome Papal opposition to their rule and the threats it could pose. |
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Roderick3D
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Post by Roderick3D on Dec 3, 2016 11:49:06 GMT
Basically I had the idea for a timeline in which a Pope decides to gather an army and conquer/unify Europe in the name of Christendom instead of the holy land. How plausible is this? Would large enough numbers of knights betray their kings for the promise of eternal salvation? No, maybe a crusade against the emperor but all Europe? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 3, 2016 11:54:32 GMT
Basically I had the idea for a timeline in which a Pope decides to gather an army and conquer/unify Europe in the name of Christendom instead of the holy land. How plausible is this? Would large enough numbers of knights betray their kings for the promise of eternal salvation? Question what would the time period be for the Pope European crusade. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 3, 2016 14:05:47 GMT
Basically I had the idea for a timeline in which a Pope decides to gather an army and conquer/unify Europe in the name of Christendom instead of the holy land. How plausible is this? Would large enough numbers of knights betray their kings for the promise of eternal salvation? No, maybe a crusade against the emperor but all Europe? Possibly although I think that was what occurred OTL, pretty much anyway as numerous popes and emperors clashed over their respected authority. It might be that the papacy could organise its forces more efficiently but the more it becomes a territorial and temporal power itself the more it undermines its own spiritual position. Plus if it managed to defeat the emperor decisively and effectively control the HRE it would cause great fear in the rest of Europe that other monarchies would be next on the target list. Steve |
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bytor
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Post by bytor on Dec 18, 2016 18:38:13 GMT
Depends on who has bigger pockets, the kings ore the pope. That would be a possible issue. Could religion itself be an effective enough motivator for the majority of knights? Was religion ever the actual motivator, rather than the public excuse? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 18, 2016 21:22:45 GMT
That would be a possible issue. Could religion itself be an effective enough motivator for the majority of knights? Was religion ever the actual motivator, rather than the public excuse? Bytor I would say that: a) People being what they are some powerful religious figures couldn't distinguish between religious principles and their own desire for power. b) For a lot of ordinary people I suspect they took the Pope's religious proclamations at face value and generally believed he was right. Otherwise however I agree with you. Steve |
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