futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 2, 2016 1:51:23 GMT
What if Prussia would have annexed Bohemia and Moravia (including the area that is now known as the Sudetenland in our TL; in other words, all of our TL's Czech Republic) after it defeated Austria in the 1866 Austro-Prussian War?
(Also, Yes, you can certainly include Austrian Silesia in the list of Prussian annexations in 1866 in this TL if you want; of course, I am unsure that this would make a meaningful difference in this TL.)
For the record, the reason for this annexation would be Bismarck wanting to acquire an industrialized part of Austria in order to further strengthen Prussia and Prussia's economy.
Anyway, here are the consequences that I would expect in this TL:
-Austria gets permanently pissed off at Prussia for this annexation. Indeed, this annexation on Prussia's part makes Austria (soon to be(come) Austria-Hungary) even more backwards than it was in our TL.
-Prussia still wages a victorious war against France in 1870-1871, successfully unifies all of Germany (minus rump Austria) afterwards, and annexes Alsace-Lorraine afterwards (thus pissing France off, just like Prussia did in our TL). Also, Austria-Hungary remains neutral in the Franco-Prussian War in this TL due to Prussia being able to successfully threaten Russian military intervention on Prussia's side in this war if Austria-Hungary enters this war on France's side.
-After this TL's Franco-Prussian War, France begins investing *a lot* of money into Austria-Hungary but stops short of making any (legally binding) alliances with Austria-Hungary for the time being (though this will probably change if France will ally with Russia at some future point in time in this TL, as is probably likely). In turn, this will probably result in faster economic growth and in faster industrialization in Austria-Hungary in comparison to our TL; however, Austria-Hungary will certainly still be hurt and hampered by its 1866 loss of Bohemia and Moravia.
-Given the attempts to Germanize Posen Province in our TL, I certainly think that Germany's leadership will try Germanizing Bohemia and Moravia in this TL. Indeed, given the fact that Bohemia and Moravia would probably be more industrialized than Posen Province is, such a Germanization effort might very well be more successful in Bohemia and Moravia than it was in Posen in our TL. (Indeed, I certainly know that Saxony--which was heavily industrialized and which is located next door to Bohemia and Moravia--had its population *rapidly* increase between 1871 and 1910 in our TL.)
-While Russo-German relations would remain relatively warm under Bismarck, in the long(er)-run, I still suspect that Russia would ally with France (and also with Austria-Hungary, due to France insisting upon it) in order to acquire French loans. Indeed, I suspect that, even in this TL, France will be more willing to give large-scale loans to Russia than Germany will, which in turn will still eventually compel Russia to ally with France in this TL.
-Germany will probably still ally with Italy in this TL due to the fact that Austria-Hungary is an enemy/rival of both Germany and Italy in this TL. After all, Austria-Hungary wants revenge against Germany for its 1866 loss of Bohemia and Moravia while Italy wants to annex the Italian-majority areas of Austria-Hungary as well as possibility some additional parts of Austria-Hungary as well.
-In this TL, there will probably be *no* Anglo-German naval arms race. Indeed, the most that Germany will do in regards to its Navy in this TL is a little naval expansion for prestige reasons (but certainly *absolutely nothing* which is even remotely comparable to our TL's German naval expansion). After all, since Germany is surrounded by a Franco-Austro-Russian alliance in this TL, even German Kaiser Wilhelm II would probably be smart enough to understand that pissing off Britain is a bad move.
-In this TL, Germany will either spark a general European war at a point in time when Russia is engulfed by revolution (since that might be perceived as being the only opening for Germany to do this) or, perhaps more likely, be too scared to *ever* spark a general European war. After all, even the Schlieffen Plan *doesn't* appear to really work if Germany has to *simultaneously* fight *three* rather than *two* countries.
-In this TL, Germany will spend almost all of the money that it spend on its naval expansion in our TL on its army (and later, on its air force) instead. Indeed, in this TL, Germany's military strategy will very likely be to exclusively play defense on *all* fronts until (and unless) large numbers of British troops arrive in Germany to help it fight the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance.
-Meanwhile, in this TL, the military strategy of the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance would probably be to *exclusively* focus on knocking Italy out of the war (while playing defense against Germany and against countries such as the Ottoman Empire and Japan, if these countries will join this war on the Anglo-German-Italian side) and then to *exclusively* focus on knocking Germany out of the war before large amounts of British troops are able to arrive in Europe (and while playing defense on *all* other fronts until *after* Germany is already defeated).
-The Anglo-German-Italian alliance in this TL might very well eventually expand to include countries such as the Ottoman Empire and Japan.
-Frankly, a crucial question in this TL is whether or not the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance will *ever* feel sufficiently emboldened to spark a general European war. Indeed, if the development of nuclear weapons is delayed by, say, 15-25 years in this TL, then the 1940s and/or the 1950s might very well be perceived by the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance as being a sufficiently good time for them to spark a general European war.
Anyway, any thoughts on everything that I wrote here?
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 2, 2016 1:51:42 GMT
Indeed, this PoD of mine (a Prussian annexation of Bohemia and Moravia in 1866) appears to be an under-explored PoD in regards to speculation about alternate history. Also, Yes, I am tempted to believe that Prussia/Germany will still annex Alsace-Lorraine in this TL for security reasons. After all, as far as I know, German states such as Baden and Bavaria were unwilling to allow Prussian troops to be stationed on their own territory in order to protect them against France (as in, after 1871).
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2016 7:48:04 GMT
What if Prussia would have annexed Bohemia and Moravia (including the area that is now known as the Sudetenland in our TL; in other words, all of our TL's Czech Republic) after it defeated Austria in the 1866 Austro-Prussian War? (Also, Yes, you can certainly include Austrian Silesia in the list of Prussian annexations in 1866 in this TL if you want; of course, I am unsure that this would make a meaningful difference in this TL.) For the record, the reason for this annexation would be Bismarck wanting to acquire an industrialized part of Austria in order to further strengthen Prussia and Prussia's economy. Anyway, here are the consequences that I would expect in this TL: -Austria gets permanently pissed off at Prussia for this annexation. Indeed, this annexation on Prussia's part makes Austria (soon to be(come) Austria-Hungary) even more backwards than it was in our TL. -Prussia still wages a victorious war against France in 1870-1871, successfully unifies all of Germany (minus rump Austria) afterwards, and annexes Alsace-Lorraine afterwards (thus pissing France off, just like Prussia did in our TL). Also, Austria-Hungary remains neutral in the Franco-Prussian War in this TL due to Prussia being able to successfully threaten Russian military intervention on Prussia's side in this war if Austria-Hungary enters this war on France's side. -After this TL's Franco-Prussian War, France begins investing *a lot* of money into Austria-Hungary but stops short of making any (legally binding) alliances with Austria-Hungary for the time being (though this will probably change if France will ally with Russia at some future point in time in this TL, as is probably likely). In turn, this will probably result in faster economic growth and in faster industrialization in Austria-Hungary in comparison to our TL; however, Austria-Hungary will certainly still be hurt and hampered by its 1866 loss of Bohemia and Moravia. -Given the attempts to Germanize Posen Province in our TL, I certainly think that Germany's leadership will try Germanizing Bohemia and Moravia in this TL. Indeed, given the fact that Bohemia and Moravia would probably be more industrialized than Posen Province is, such a Germanization effort might very well be more successful in Bohemia and Moravia than it was in Posen in our TL. (Indeed, I certainly know that Saxony--which was heavily industrialized and which is located next door to Bohemia and Moravia--had its population *rapidly* increase between 1871 and 1910 in our TL.) -While Russo-German relations would remain relatively warm under Bismarck, in the long(er)-run, I still suspect that Russia would ally with France (and also with Austria-Hungary, due to France insisting upon it) in order to acquire French loans. Indeed, I suspect that, even in this TL, France will be more willing to give large-scale loans to Russia than Germany will, which in turn will still eventually compel Russia to ally with France in this TL. -Germany will probably still ally with Italy in this TL due to the fact that Austria-Hungary is an enemy/rival of both Germany and Italy in this TL. After all, Austria-Hungary wants revenge against Germany for its 1866 loss of Bohemia and Moravia while Italy wants to annex the Italian-majority areas of Austria-Hungary as well as possibility some additional parts of Austria-Hungary as well. -In this TL, there will probably be *no* Anglo-German naval arms race. Indeed, the most that Germany will do in regards to its Navy in this TL is a little naval expansion for prestige reasons (but certainly *absolutely nothing* which is even remotely comparable to our TL's German naval expansion). After all, since Germany is surrounded by a Franco-Austro-Russian alliance in this TL, even German Kaiser Wilhelm II would probably be smart enough to understand that pissing off Britain is a bad move. -In this TL, Germany will either spark a general European war at a point in time when Russia is engulfed by revolution (since that might be perceived as being the only opening for Germany to do this) or, perhaps more likely, be too scared to *ever* spark a general European war. After all, even the Schlieffen Plan *doesn't* appear to really work if Germany has to *simultaneously* fight *three* rather than *two* countries. -In this TL, Germany will spend almost all of the money that it spend on its naval expansion in our TL on its army (and later, on its air force) instead. Indeed, in this TL, Germany's military strategy will very likely be to exclusively play defense on *all* fronts until (and unless) large numbers of British troops arrive in Germany to help it fight the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance. -Meanwhile, in this TL, the military strategy of the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance would probably be to *exclusively* focus on knocking Italy out of the war (while playing defense against Germany and against countries such as the Ottoman Empire and Japan, if these countries will join this war on the Anglo-German-Italian side) and then to *exclusively* focus on knocking Germany out of the war before large amounts of British troops are able to arrive in Europe (and while playing defense on *all* other fronts until *after* Germany is already defeated). -The Anglo-German-Italian alliance in this TL might very well eventually expand to include countries such as the Ottoman Empire and Japan. -Frankly, a crucial question in this TL is whether or not the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance will *ever* feel sufficiently emboldened to spark a general European war. Indeed, if the development of nuclear weapons is delayed by, say, 15-25 years in this TL, then the 1940s and/or the 1950s might very well be perceived by the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance as being a sufficiently good time for them to spark a general European war. Anyway, any thoughts on everything that I wrote here? I would assume relation between Prussia and Austria will remain hostile and frosty for a long time if this happens.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 2, 2016 13:04:14 GMT
What if Prussia would have annexed Bohemia and Moravia (including the area that is now known as the Sudetenland in our TL; in other words, all of our TL's Czech Republic) after it defeated Austria in the 1866 Austro-Prussian War? (Also, Yes, you can certainly include Austrian Silesia in the list of Prussian annexations in 1866 in this TL if you want; of course, I am unsure that this would make a meaningful difference in this TL.) For the record, the reason for this annexation would be Bismarck wanting to acquire an industrialized part of Austria in order to further strengthen Prussia and Prussia's economy. Anyway, here are the consequences that I would expect in this TL: -Austria gets permanently pissed off at Prussia for this annexation. Indeed, this annexation on Prussia's part makes Austria (soon to be(come) Austria-Hungary) even more backwards than it was in our TL. -Prussia still wages a victorious war against France in 1870-1871, successfully unifies all of Germany (minus rump Austria) afterwards, and annexes Alsace-Lorraine afterwards (thus pissing France off, just like Prussia did in our TL). Also, Austria-Hungary remains neutral in the Franco-Prussian War in this TL due to Prussia being able to successfully threaten Russian military intervention on Prussia's side in this war if Austria-Hungary enters this war on France's side. -After this TL's Franco-Prussian War, France begins investing *a lot* of money into Austria-Hungary but stops short of making any (legally binding) alliances with Austria-Hungary for the time being (though this will probably change if France will ally with Russia at some future point in time in this TL, as is probably likely). In turn, this will probably result in faster economic growth and in faster industrialization in Austria-Hungary in comparison to our TL; however, Austria-Hungary will certainly still be hurt and hampered by its 1866 loss of Bohemia and Moravia. -Given the attempts to Germanize Posen Province in our TL, I certainly think that Germany's leadership will try Germanizing Bohemia and Moravia in this TL. Indeed, given the fact that Bohemia and Moravia would probably be more industrialized than Posen Province is, such a Germanization effort might very well be more successful in Bohemia and Moravia than it was in Posen in our TL. (Indeed, I certainly know that Saxony--which was heavily industrialized and which is located next door to Bohemia and Moravia--had its population *rapidly* increase between 1871 and 1910 in our TL.) -While Russo-German relations would remain relatively warm under Bismarck, in the long(er)-run, I still suspect that Russia would ally with France (and also with Austria-Hungary, due to France insisting upon it) in order to acquire French loans. Indeed, I suspect that, even in this TL, France will be more willing to give large-scale loans to Russia than Germany will, which in turn will still eventually compel Russia to ally with France in this TL. -Germany will probably still ally with Italy in this TL due to the fact that Austria-Hungary is an enemy/rival of both Germany and Italy in this TL. After all, Austria-Hungary wants revenge against Germany for its 1866 loss of Bohemia and Moravia while Italy wants to annex the Italian-majority areas of Austria-Hungary as well as possibility some additional parts of Austria-Hungary as well. -In this TL, there will probably be *no* Anglo-German naval arms race. Indeed, the most that Germany will do in regards to its Navy in this TL is a little naval expansion for prestige reasons (but certainly *absolutely nothing* which is even remotely comparable to our TL's German naval expansion). After all, since Germany is surrounded by a Franco-Austro-Russian alliance in this TL, even German Kaiser Wilhelm II would probably be smart enough to understand that pissing off Britain is a bad move. -In this TL, Germany will either spark a general European war at a point in time when Russia is engulfed by revolution (since that might be perceived as being the only opening for Germany to do this) or, perhaps more likely, be too scared to *ever* spark a general European war. After all, even the Schlieffen Plan *doesn't* appear to really work if Germany has to *simultaneously* fight *three* rather than *two* countries. -In this TL, Germany will spend almost all of the money that it spend on its naval expansion in our TL on its army (and later, on its air force) instead. Indeed, in this TL, Germany's military strategy will very likely be to exclusively play defense on *all* fronts until (and unless) large numbers of British troops arrive in Germany to help it fight the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance. -Meanwhile, in this TL, the military strategy of the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance would probably be to *exclusively* focus on knocking Italy out of the war (while playing defense against Germany and against countries such as the Ottoman Empire and Japan, if these countries will join this war on the Anglo-German-Italian side) and then to *exclusively* focus on knocking Germany out of the war before large amounts of British troops are able to arrive in Europe (and while playing defense on *all* other fronts until *after* Germany is already defeated). -The Anglo-German-Italian alliance in this TL might very well eventually expand to include countries such as the Ottoman Empire and Japan. -Frankly, a crucial question in this TL is whether or not the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance will *ever* feel sufficiently emboldened to spark a general European war. Indeed, if the development of nuclear weapons is delayed by, say, 15-25 years in this TL, then the 1940s and/or the 1950s might very well be perceived by the Franco-Austro-Russian alliance as being a sufficiently good time for them to spark a general European war. Anyway, any thoughts on everything that I wrote here? I would assume relation between Prussia and Austria will remain hostile and frosty for a long time if this happens. Completely agreed.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2016 13:11:04 GMT
I would assume relation between Prussia and Austria will remain hostile and frosty for a long time if this happens. Completely agreed. Might Austria not support the French in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 2, 2016 15:15:31 GMT
Might Austria not support the French in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Quoted from my original post here: "-Prussia still wages a victorious war against France in 1870-1871, successfully unifies all of Germany (minus rump Austria) afterwards, and annexes Alsace-Lorraine afterwards (thus pissing France off, just like Prussia did in our TL). Also, Austria-Hungary remains neutral in the Franco-Prussian War in this TL due to Prussia being able to successfully threaten Russian military intervention on Prussia's side in this war if Austria-Hungary enters this war on France's side."
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2016 15:27:52 GMT
Might Austria not support the French in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870. Quoted from my original post here: "-Prussia still wages a victorious war against France in 1870-1871, successfully unifies all of Germany (minus rump Austria) afterwards, and annexes Alsace-Lorraine afterwards (thus pissing France off, just like Prussia did in our TL). Also, Austria-Hungary remains neutral in the Franco-Prussian War in this TL due to Prussia being able to successfully threaten Russian military intervention on Prussia's side in this war if Austria-Hungary enters this war on France's side." My fault did not see that part,
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Sept 2, 2016 19:15:46 GMT
I have given some extensive thought to this scenario for a TL of mine since a greater Prussian-Italian success in 1866 was a very important component of the multiple PoD. Certainly acquisition of Bohemia-Moravia, another major industrial region in addition to Rhineland-Westphalia, Silesia, Saxony, and Brandenburg, would substantially strenghten Prussia/Germany, and the German state would be much more capable than A-H to contain the rise of Czech nationalism to manageable levels. As a matter of fact, Germanization of the region would be far from unlikely in these circumstances. In these circumstances, I am rather skeptical A-H would be able to survive (and if it joins France in the 1870-71 war, it would sign its own death warrant, since Italy and Russia would then surely join Prussia), and even more skeptical in this scenario Russia would still join France's side, just for the sake of a few French loans. Germany ITTL would be even wealthier thanks to the resources of Bohemia-Moravia (and in all likelihood, German Austria as well), and entirely able to give Russia all the loans it may want. With Austria gone or hostile to Germany, it very likely Russia would choose alliance with Germany, as long as the guys in Berlin and St. Petersburg do not exceed William II and Nicholas II in stupidity.
In this scenario, complete collapse of the Habsburg empire in 1866-71 would be the most likely outcome. Austria would suffer a severe loss in terms of prestige and resources, and the Italians and Magyars would be driven to escalate their own claims to a level the Habsburg empire may hardly survive. Its OTL recovery after the 1859-67 trials (coming on top of the 1848-49 shock) was already a close thing. As a matter of fact, one of the best PoDs to justify this scenario would be a better Italian military performance with a victory at Custoza and Lissa. This was quite doable with a few changes in the Italian chain of command, since the fundamentals of the Italian army were good in 1866 (despite the stereotype) and in no way inferior to Austrian ones, and the OTL defeats were entirely caused by lousy commanders. A parallel Prussian and Italian success would allow the Italians to make greater demands at the peace table (in addition to Venetia, also Trent, Kustenland, and Dalmatia). This in turn would drive the Prussian King and generals to enforce their wish for greater Prussian gains (in addition to Hanover and stuff, also Bohemia-Moravia, Austrian Silesia, and Saxony), overruling Bismarck's preference for a lenient peace.
In these circumstances, the Habsburg empire would in all likelihood collapse; the Magyars were restive in the 1860s and their consent to the Ausgleich compromise was difficult to obtain. If the Habsburg perform worse in 1859-67, odds are the Hungarians would deem the dynasty a lost cause and rise up again in rebellion, and nobody would be able or willing to stop them after a military disaster. If anything, Russia is likely to intervene and annex Galicia and Bukovina, to grab its own share of the Habsburg spoils and prevent the rise of a Polish irredentist haven. After Austrian ingratitude in the Crimean War, the Tsar had no wish to save the Habsburg again, Russia had a pro-Prussian stance after the two powers cooperated to suppress the January Uprising, and the Russians had much to gain from a free hand in the Balkans if Austria collapsed. In these circumstances Grossdeutchsland unification of Germany under Prussian leadership would be inevitable due to irresistible pressure of German nationalism, notwithstanding any anti-Catholic misgivings of the Junker elites. Bismarck would just have to adjust his plans for unification accordingly.
Even if by some political miracle Austria does not fall in 1866-67, its survival after this humiliation would in all likelihood drive the vengeful Habsburg to join the Franco-Prussian War on the side of France. Most agents and observers at the beginning of the war expected a French victory, so the Austrians may be easily tempted and misled to expect an easy revenge thanks to French military power. However, an Austrian intervention would surely drive Italy and Russia to side with Prussia (Russia had signed a secret treaty to guarantee its intervention if Austria sided with France). Such an enlarged conflict would inevitably cause the utter destruction of Austria.
I'm rather skeptical in this scenario German annexation of A-L would be avoided, since there were sound ethnic-linguistic, historical, economic, and strategic reasons for it that greater Prussian success against Austria would not invalidate. A-L was a German-speaking and historically German land that the French state had forcibly acquired from the HRE at the moment of its greatest weakness, it was quite valuable economically, and rather useful strategically to protect the Rhineland from the French invasions of Germany that historically were the norm before 1870. Moreover, it is quite likely Italy would join Prussia in the war and make its own territorial demands at the peace table (Nice, Corsica, Tunisia, Savoy). This would make even less acceptable for Germany to give up A-L. As a matter of fact, it is likely a greater Prussian and Italian success in 1866 would make both powers less willing to appease Napoleon III on the Luxemburg and Rome issues. Tensions with France would escalate and the 1870 war would occur earlier, include Italy, and have a different, double casus belli rather than the Spanish succession. This would allow Germany to annex Luxemburg, too.
Last but not least, in this scenario it is quite likely Europe would see the formation of a stable alliance between Germany, Russia, and Italy thanks to compatible strategic interests after the demise of Austria. As the OTL Axis showed, Germany and Italy may easily and gainfully cooperate as partners if A-H is not in the way. If the Habsburg empire collapses, one of the best ways for Germany to manage Russia is to support its expansion in the Balkans and the Near East against the Ottomans. After the Russo-Turkish war, the Russians may easily make greater gains at the peace table if Austria is no more, Berlin and Rome support St.Petersburg, France is still weakened by defeat and postwar instability (going to be worse if they took a beating and lost stuff to Italy too), and Britain is thus isolated. This would secure Russia as a loyal ally for the German-Italian bloc and allow Russian ambitions to be fulfilled in a way that does not threaten its interests. Of course, this alignment would inevitably drive the formation of an Anglo-French-Ottoman Entente sooner rather than later, but the Eastern Powers alliance would always be the strongest side in a *WWI (short of America joining the Entente from the beginning) and land trade across Central Europe would make it effectively immune to Entente blockade. In this context Germany would have relatively little to fear from a vengeful France.
Broadly speaking, this kind of PoD is rather likely to lead to the early collapse of Austria, a greater success of Germany, Italy, Russia, and Hungary (it would become a client state of the EP but keep most of its traditional lands, except possibly Croatia), and more trouble for France, Britain, and the Ottoman Empire during the late 19th century and early 20th century. This in turn may cause the more successful countries to experience a nicer and less troublesome political course and more economic development, while the more troubled nations may go down a nastier path (e.g. by becoming the birthplaces of fascism or communism; in my TL, postwar France and later the Franco-Iberian union it creates become the main stronghold of *fascism). Poland and the other subject nationalities of the Russian Empire would likely never regain independence if Germany and Russia remain strong and friendly. The Czechs would likely become a later analogue of the Sorbs, and the map of the Balkans would be substantially different (in my TL, the region gets divided between Greater Hungary, Greater Croatia, pre-1914 Romania, a Serb-Bulgarian *Yugoslavia, Italian Albania, and Greater Greece). It is quite possible the example of completely successful German and Italian unifications since the 1860s may improve the chances of other historically incomplete or missed national unifications, such as Scandinavia, Iberia, Greater Netherlands, or even a non-Nazi, HRE-sized Greater Germanic Reich.
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bytor
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Post by bytor on Sept 2, 2016 19:45:58 GMT
What if Prussia would have annexed Bohemia and Moravia (including the area that is now known as the Sudetenland in our TL; in other words, all of our TL's Czech Republic) after it defeated Austria in the 1866 Austro-Prussian War? … -Given the attempts to Germanize Posen Province in our TL, I certainly think that Germany's leadership will try Germanizing Bohemia and Moravia in this TL. Indeed, given the fact that Bohemia and Moravia would probably be more industrialized than Posen Province is, such a Germanization effort might very well be more successful in Bohemia and Moravia than it was in Posen in our TL. (Indeed, I certainly know that Saxony--which was heavily industrialized and which is located next door to Bohemia and Moravia--had its population *rapidly* increase between 1871 and 1910 in our TL.) The Austrians had already started on Germanisation of the Czechs in Bohemia well before this, so that makes this possible. Germanized (and therefore trustworthy) Czechs were a large part of the Austro-German bureaucracy across the empire. However, even though the Habsburgs definitely believed in the superiority of Germans over the other races in their empire, they also had to deal with the Hungarians trying play the Serbs, Croats, Slovenians, Transylvanians, and proto-Romanians in associated lands of the Crown of St. Stephen against them. As a result they learned to be able to at least give lip service in a believable manner to the ideals of trying to treat the different ethnic polities fairly in order to undercut their support for any Hungarian revolutionary hopes. And to do it believable enough such that it would keep on succeeding even after generations of reneging on promises made while doing so. The Prussians, for all their industrial and military brilliance, were, let's face it, pretty much tone deaf on cultural issues of minorities under them. In an era when OTL even the Germanised Czechs were starting to wake up and realise that they were a step or three below actual Germans on the ladder of who gets to have a say in the running of the Austrian Empire, I can't see the Prussians being very successful in accelerating - or even merely continuing - the Germanisation of of Bohemia and Moravia. Especially since the Prussians attempts in Posen were more about getting Germans to move there rather than getting the Poles and Sorbs to adopt German culture and language.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 3, 2016 3:11:29 GMT
1. I have given some extensive thought to this scenario for a TL of mine since a greater Prussian-Italian success in 1866 was a very important component of the multiple PoD. Certainly acquisition of Bohemia-Moravia, another major industrial region in addition to Rhineland-Westphalia, Silesia, Saxony, and Brandenburg, would substantially strenghten Prussia/Germany, 2. and the German state would be much more capable than A-H to contain the rise of Czech nationalism to manageable levels. 3. As a matter of fact, Germanization of the region would be far from unlikely in these circumstances. 4. In these circumstances, I am rather skeptical A-H would be able to survive (and if it joins France in the 1870-71 war, it would sign its own death warrant, since Italy and Russia would then surely join Prussia), 5. and even more skeptical in this scenario Russia would still join France's side, just for the sake of a few French loans. Germany ITTL would be even wealthier thanks to the resources of Bohemia-Moravia (and in all likelihood, German Austria as well), and entirely able to give Russia all the loans it may want. With Austria gone or hostile to Germany, it very likely Russia would choose alliance with Germany, as long as the guys in Berlin and St. Petersburg do not exceed William II and Nicholas II in stupidity. 6. In this scenario, complete collapse of the Habsburg empire in 1866-71 would be the most likely outcome. Austria would suffer a severe loss in terms of prestige and resources, and the Italians and Magyars would be driven to escalate their own claims to a level the Habsburg empire may hardly survive. Its OTL recovery after the 1859-67 trials (coming on top of the 1848-49 shock) was already a close thing. As a matter of fact, one of the best PoDs to justify this scenario would be a better Italian military performance with a victory at Custoza and Lissa. This was quite doable with a few changes in the Italian chain of command, since the fundamentals of the Italian army were good in 1866 (despite the stereotype) and in no way inferior to Austrian ones, and the OTL defeats were entirely caused by lousy commanders. A parallel Prussian and Italian success would allow the Italians to make greater demands at the peace table (in addition to Venetia, also Trent, Kustenland, and Dalmatia). This in turn would drive the Prussian King and generals to enforce their wish for greater Prussian gains (in addition to Hanover and stuff, also Bohemia-Moravia, Austrian Silesia, and Saxony), overruling Bismarck's preference for a lenient peace. 7. In these circumstances, the Habsburg empire would in all likelihood collapse; the Magyars were restive in the 1860s and their consent to the Ausgleich compromise was difficult to obtain. If the Habsburg perform worse in 1859-67, odds are the Hungarians would deem the dynasty a lost cause and rise up again in rebellion, and nobody would be able or willing to stop them after a military disaster. If anything, Russia is likely to intervene and annex Galicia and Bukovina, to grab its own share of the Habsburg spoils and prevent the rise of a Polish irredentist haven. After Austrian ingratitude in the Crimean War, the Tsar had no wish to save the Habsburg again, Russia had a pro-Prussian stance after the two powers cooperated to suppress the January Uprising, and the Russians had much to gain from a free hand in the Balkans if Austria collapsed. In these circumstances Grossdeutchsland unification of Germany under Prussian leadership would be inevitable due to irresistible pressure of German nationalism, notwithstanding any anti-Catholic misgivings of the Junker elites. Bismarck would just have to adjust his plans for unification accordingly. 8. Even if by some political miracle Austria does not fall in 1866-67, its survival after this humiliation would in all likelihood drive the vengeful Habsburg to join the Franco-Prussian War on the side of France. Most agents and observers at the beginning of the war expected a French victory, so the Austrians may be easily tempted and misled to expect an easy revenge thanks to French military power. However, an Austrian intervention would surely drive Italy and Russia to side with Prussia (Russia had signed a secret treaty to guarantee its intervention if Austria sided with France). Such an enlarged conflict would inevitably cause the utter destruction of Austria. 9. I'm rather skeptical in this scenario German annexation of A-L would be avoided, since there were sound ethnic-linguistic, historical, economic, and strategic reasons for it that greater Prussian success against Austria would not invalidate. A-L was a German-speaking and historically German land that the French state had forcibly acquired from the HRE at the moment of its greatest weakness, it was quite valuable economically, and rather useful strategically to protect the Rhineland from the French invasions of Germany that historically were the norm before 1870. 10. Moreover, it is quite likely Italy would join Prussia in the war and make its own territorial demands at the peace table (Nice, Corsica, Tunisia, Savoy). This would make even less acceptable for Germany to give up A-L. As a matter of fact, it is likely a greater Prussian and Italian success in 1866 would make both powers less willing to appease Napoleon III on the Luxemburg and Rome issues. Tensions with France would escalate and the 1870 war would occur earlier, include Italy, and have a different, double casus belli rather than the Spanish succession. This would allow Germany to annex Luxemburg, too. 11. Last but not least, in this scenario it is quite likely Europe would see the formation of a stable alliance between Germany, Russia, and Italy thanks to compatible strategic interests after the demise of Austria. As the OTL Axis showed, Germany and Italy may easily and gainfully cooperate as partners if A-H is not in the way. If the Habsburg empire collapses, one of the best ways for Germany to manage Russia is to support its expansion in the Balkans and the Near East against the Ottomans. After the Russo-Turkish war, the Russians may easily make greater gains at the peace table if Austria is no more, Berlin and Rome support St.Petersburg, France is still weakened by defeat and postwar instability (going to be worse if they took a beating and lost stuff to Italy too), and Britain is thus isolated. This would secure Russia as a loyal ally for the German-Italian bloc and allow Russian ambitions to be fulfilled in a way that does not threaten its interests. Of course, this alignment would inevitably drive the formation of an Anglo-French-Ottoman Entente sooner rather than later, but the Eastern Powers alliance would always be the strongest side in a *WWI (short of America joining the Entente from the beginning) and land trade across Central Europe would make it effectively immune to Entente blockade. In this context Germany would have relatively little to fear from a vengeful France. 12. Broadly speaking, this kind of PoD is rather likely to lead to the early collapse of Austria, a greater success of Germany, Italy, Russia, and Hungary (it would become a client state of the EP but keep most of its traditional lands, except possibly Croatia), and more trouble for France, Britain, and the Ottoman Empire during the late 19th century and early 20th century. 13. This in turn may cause the more successful countries to experience a nicer and less troublesome political course and more economic development, while the more troubled nations may go down a nastier path (e.g. by becoming the birthplaces of fascism or communism; in my TL, postwar France and later the Franco-Iberian union it creates become the main stronghold of *fascism). Poland and the other subject nationalities of the Russian Empire would likely never regain independence if Germany and Russia remain strong and friendly. The Czechs would likely become a later analogue of the Sorbs, and the map of the Balkans would be substantially different (in my TL, the region gets divided between Greater Hungary, Greater Croatia, pre-1914 Romania, a Serb-Bulgarian *Yugoslavia, Italian Albania, and Greater Greece). It is quite possible the example of completely successful German and Italian unifications since the 1860s may improve the chances of other historically incomplete or missed national unifications, such as Scandinavia, Iberia, Greater Netherlands, or even a non-Nazi, HRE-sized Greater Germanic Reich. 1. Agreed. 2. Agreed--at least initially. 3. Completely agreed--at least to some extent. 4. Would Austria(-Hungary) actually be stupid enough to enter the Franco-Prussian War on France's side in this TL, though? 5. Actually, it was Otto von Bismarck who cut off large-scale German loans to Russia in 1887 in our TL (thus paving the way for the beginning of large-scale French loans to Russia): books.google.com/books?id=Xr15PvBaF5YC&pg=PA442&lpg=PA442&dq=russian+securities+1887+bismarck&source=bl&ots=n06bhz8Nz3&sig=nI_OWHk9BWz0BCDg6mFOgHSLJ8I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA7ILOmfLOAhUI5GMKHduECqkQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=russian%20securities%201887%20bismarck&f=falseIndeed, would Bismarck still (eventually) make such a move in this TL? 6. OK. 7. OK; indeed, all of this appears to make sense. 8. Wouldn't such an act be a case of extreme stupidity on Austria(-Hungary)'s part, though? 9. Completely agreed. 10. Why exactly didn't Italy enter the Franco-Prussian War on Prussia's side in our TL, though? 11. Completely agreed with all of this. 12. Mostly agreed; indeed, I think that Russia will force Hungary to give Slovakia its independence (with pro-Russian leadership being put in Slovakia afterwards). Also, though, what exactly does "EP" stand for? 13. I pretty much agree with all of this; of course, it would certainly be interesting to see what exactly will occur if/after a successful revolution ( eventually--such as sometime during the 20th century) occurs in Germany and/or in Russia in this TL? Indeed, any thoughts on this?
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Sept 3, 2016 3:15:37 GMT
What if Prussia would have annexed Bohemia and Moravia (including the area that is now known as the Sudetenland in our TL; in other words, all of our TL's Czech Republic) after it defeated Austria in the 1866 Austro-Prussian War? … -Given the attempts to Germanize Posen Province in our TL, I certainly think that Germany's leadership will try Germanizing Bohemia and Moravia in this TL. Indeed, given the fact that Bohemia and Moravia would probably be more industrialized than Posen Province is, such a Germanization effort might very well be more successful in Bohemia and Moravia than it was in Posen in our TL. (Indeed, I certainly know that Saxony--which was heavily industrialized and which is located next door to Bohemia and Moravia--had its population *rapidly* increase between 1871 and 1910 in our TL.) 1. The Austrians had already started on Germanisation of the Czechs in Bohemia well before this, so that makes this possible. Germanized (and therefore trustworthy) Czechs were a large part of the Austro-German bureaucracy across the empire. 2. However, even though the Habsburgs definitely believed in the superiority of Germans over the other races in their empire, they also had to deal with the Hungarians trying play the Serbs, Croats, Slovenians, Transylvanians, and proto-Romanians in associated lands of the Crown of St. Stephen against them. As a result they learned to be able to at least give lip service in a believable manner to the ideals of trying to treat the different ethnic polities fairly in order to undercut their support for any Hungarian revolutionary hopes. And to do it believable enough such that it would keep on succeeding even after generations of reneging on promises made while doing so. 3. The Prussians, for all their industrial and military brilliance, were, let's face it, pretty much tone deaf on cultural issues of minorities under them. In an era when OTL even the Germanised Czechs were starting to wake up and realise that they were a step or three below actual Germans on the ladder of who gets to have a say in the running of the Austrian Empire, I can't see the Prussians being very successful in accelerating - or even merely continuing - the Germanisation of of Bohemia and Moravia. Especially since the Prussians attempts in Posen were more about getting Germans to move there rather than getting the Poles and Sorbs to adopt German culture and language. 1. Do you have a source for all of this, please? 2. OK. 3. For the record, I would like to point out that I was primarily talking about having very large numbers of ethnic Germans settle in Czechia in this TL. Indeed, that is primarily what I meant by "Germanization" here.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Sept 23, 2016 22:44:09 GMT
1. I have given some extensive thought to this scenario for a TL of mine since a greater Prussian-Italian success in 1866 was a very important component of the multiple PoD. Certainly acquisition of Bohemia-Moravia, another major industrial region in addition to Rhineland-Westphalia, Silesia, Saxony, and Brandenburg, would substantially strenghten Prussia/Germany, 2. and the German state would be much more capable than A-H to contain the rise of Czech nationalism to manageable levels. 3. As a matter of fact, Germanization of the region would be far from unlikely in these circumstances. 4. In these circumstances, I am rather skeptical A-H would be able to survive (and if it joins France in the 1870-71 war, it would sign its own death warrant, since Italy and Russia would then surely join Prussia), 5. and even more skeptical in this scenario Russia would still join France's side, just for the sake of a few French loans. Germany ITTL would be even wealthier thanks to the resources of Bohemia-Moravia (and in all likelihood, German Austria as well), and entirely able to give Russia all the loans it may want. With Austria gone or hostile to Germany, it very likely Russia would choose alliance with Germany, as long as the guys in Berlin and St. Petersburg do not exceed William II and Nicholas II in stupidity. 6. In this scenario, complete collapse of the Habsburg empire in 1866-71 would be the most likely outcome. Austria would suffer a severe loss in terms of prestige and resources, and the Italians and Magyars would be driven to escalate their own claims to a level the Habsburg empire may hardly survive. Its OTL recovery after the 1859-67 trials (coming on top of the 1848-49 shock) was already a close thing. As a matter of fact, one of the best PoDs to justify this scenario would be a better Italian military performance with a victory at Custoza and Lissa. This was quite doable with a few changes in the Italian chain of command, since the fundamentals of the Italian army were good in 1866 (despite the stereotype) and in no way inferior to Austrian ones, and the OTL defeats were entirely caused by lousy commanders. A parallel Prussian and Italian success would allow the Italians to make greater demands at the peace table (in addition to Venetia, also Trent, Kustenland, and Dalmatia). This in turn would drive the Prussian King and generals to enforce their wish for greater Prussian gains (in addition to Hanover and stuff, also Bohemia-Moravia, Austrian Silesia, and Saxony), overruling Bismarck's preference for a lenient peace. 7. In these circumstances, the Habsburg empire would in all likelihood collapse; the Magyars were restive in the 1860s and their consent to the Ausgleich compromise was difficult to obtain. If the Habsburg perform worse in 1859-67, odds are the Hungarians would deem the dynasty a lost cause and rise up again in rebellion, and nobody would be able or willing to stop them after a military disaster. If anything, Russia is likely to intervene and annex Galicia and Bukovina, to grab its own share of the Habsburg spoils and prevent the rise of a Polish irredentist haven. After Austrian ingratitude in the Crimean War, the Tsar had no wish to save the Habsburg again, Russia had a pro-Prussian stance after the two powers cooperated to suppress the January Uprising, and the Russians had much to gain from a free hand in the Balkans if Austria collapsed. In these circumstances Grossdeutchsland unification of Germany under Prussian leadership would be inevitable due to irresistible pressure of German nationalism, notwithstanding any anti-Catholic misgivings of the Junker elites. Bismarck would just have to adjust his plans for unification accordingly. 8. Even if by some political miracle Austria does not fall in 1866-67, its survival after this humiliation would in all likelihood drive the vengeful Habsburg to join the Franco-Prussian War on the side of France. Most agents and observers at the beginning of the war expected a French victory, so the Austrians may be easily tempted and misled to expect an easy revenge thanks to French military power. However, an Austrian intervention would surely drive Italy and Russia to side with Prussia (Russia had signed a secret treaty to guarantee its intervention if Austria sided with France). Such an enlarged conflict would inevitably cause the utter destruction of Austria. 9. I'm rather skeptical in this scenario German annexation of A-L would be avoided, since there were sound ethnic-linguistic, historical, economic, and strategic reasons for it that greater Prussian success against Austria would not invalidate. A-L was a German-speaking and historically German land that the French state had forcibly acquired from the HRE at the moment of its greatest weakness, it was quite valuable economically, and rather useful strategically to protect the Rhineland from the French invasions of Germany that historically were the norm before 1870. 10. Moreover, it is quite likely Italy would join Prussia in the war and make its own territorial demands at the peace table (Nice, Corsica, Tunisia, Savoy). This would make even less acceptable for Germany to give up A-L. As a matter of fact, it is likely a greater Prussian and Italian success in 1866 would make both powers less willing to appease Napoleon III on the Luxemburg and Rome issues. Tensions with France would escalate and the 1870 war would occur earlier, include Italy, and have a different, double casus belli rather than the Spanish succession. This would allow Germany to annex Luxemburg, too. 11. Last but not least, in this scenario it is quite likely Europe would see the formation of a stable alliance between Germany, Russia, and Italy thanks to compatible strategic interests after the demise of Austria. As the OTL Axis showed, Germany and Italy may easily and gainfully cooperate as partners if A-H is not in the way. If the Habsburg empire collapses, one of the best ways for Germany to manage Russia is to support its expansion in the Balkans and the Near East against the Ottomans. After the Russo-Turkish war, the Russians may easily make greater gains at the peace table if Austria is no more, Berlin and Rome support St.Petersburg, France is still weakened by defeat and postwar instability (going to be worse if they took a beating and lost stuff to Italy too), and Britain is thus isolated. This would secure Russia as a loyal ally for the German-Italian bloc and allow Russian ambitions to be fulfilled in a way that does not threaten its interests. Of course, this alignment would inevitably drive the formation of an Anglo-French-Ottoman Entente sooner rather than later, but the Eastern Powers alliance would always be the strongest side in a *WWI (short of America joining the Entente from the beginning) and land trade across Central Europe would make it effectively immune to Entente blockade. In this context Germany would have relatively little to fear from a vengeful France. 12. Broadly speaking, this kind of PoD is rather likely to lead to the early collapse of Austria, a greater success of Germany, Italy, Russia, and Hungary (it would become a client state of the EP but keep most of its traditional lands, except possibly Croatia), and more trouble for France, Britain, and the Ottoman Empire during the late 19th century and early 20th century. 13. This in turn may cause the more successful countries to experience a nicer and less troublesome political course and more economic development, while the more troubled nations may go down a nastier path (e.g. by becoming the birthplaces of fascism or communism; in my TL, postwar France and later the Franco-Iberian union it creates become the main stronghold of *fascism). Poland and the other subject nationalities of the Russian Empire would likely never regain independence if Germany and Russia remain strong and friendly. The Czechs would likely become a later analogue of the Sorbs, and the map of the Balkans would be substantially different (in my TL, the region gets divided between Greater Hungary, Greater Croatia, pre-1914 Romania, a Serb-Bulgarian *Yugoslavia, Italian Albania, and Greater Greece). It is quite possible the example of completely successful German and Italian unifications since the 1860s may improve the chances of other historically incomplete or missed national unifications, such as Scandinavia, Iberia, Greater Netherlands, or even a non-Nazi, HRE-sized Greater Germanic Reich. 1. Agreed. 2. Agreed--at least initially. 3. Completely agreed--at least to some extent. 4. Would Austria(-Hungary) actually be stupid enough to enter the Franco-Prussian War on France's side in this TL, though? 5. Actually, it was Otto von Bismarck who cut off large-scale German loans to Russia in 1887 in our TL (thus paving the way for the beginning of large-scale French loans to Russia): books.google.com/books?id=Xr15PvBaF5YC&pg=PA442&lpg=PA442&dq=russian+securities+1887+bismarck&source=bl&ots=n06bhz8Nz3&sig=nI_OWHk9BWz0BCDg6mFOgHSLJ8I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA7ILOmfLOAhUI5GMKHduECqkQ6AEIKDAC#v=onepage&q=russian%20securities%201887%20bismarck&f=falseIndeed, would Bismarck still (eventually) make such a move in this TL? 6. OK. 7. OK; indeed, all of this appears to make sense. 8. Wouldn't such an act be a case of extreme stupidity on Austria(-Hungary)'s part, though? 9. Completely agreed. 10. Why exactly didn't Italy enter the Franco-Prussian War on Prussia's side in our TL, though? 11. Completely agreed with all of this. 12. Mostly agreed; indeed, I think that Russia will force Hungary to give Slovakia its independence (with pro-Russian leadership being put in Slovakia afterwards). Also, though, what exactly does "EP" stand for? 13. I pretty much agree with all of this; of course, it would certainly be interesting to see what exactly will occur if/after a successful revolution ( eventually--such as sometime during the 20th century) occurs in Germany and/or in Russia in this TL? Indeed, any thoughts on this? 2-3. In these circumstances, I assume Bohemia-Moravia would easily turn plurality/majority German, as the result of a mix of immigration of German-speakers in a major industrial region (Poles. Jews, and other Eastern Europeans would also immigrate, but in all likelihood they would assimilate as German-speakers if at all), Czechs culturally assimilating out of socio-economic convenience, and the German state suppressing the revival of Czech language more effectively than A-H. This doesn't mean a sizable Czech-speaking minority wouldn't survive, but being the minority, and Germany being much stronger and more solid than A-H, they would in all likelihood be forced to strive for cultural and federal autonomy rather than independence as the only realistic objective. The federal character of the German Empire would provide conditions for an important degree of political autonomy if Bohemia-Moravia is annexed as its own state in the German Empire, say with a Catholic Hohenzollern.Sigmaringen on the throne. If it is annexed by Prussia, of course, centralization from Berlin is going to be rather higher. It might go both ways, depending on how Bismarck and the Prussian elites decide to settle their war gains once the decision to annex B-M in addition to the other OTL stuff is taken. 4/8. Remember that decisive Prussian success in the Franco-Prussian War took Europe by surprise, and the Prusso-Russian agreement for Russia to intervene if Austria did was a secret deal. Most Europeans assumed France would win, so an Austria that has been humiliated and weakened by Prussia (and Italy) may think it can reap an easy revenge (and revitalize its crumbling empire) by exploiting French power and riding on Napoleon III's coat-tails. Once the Prussians (and Italians) are revealed to be stronger than the French, and the Russians intervene, it would be a very nasty surprise for Vienna but too late to avoid destruction of the Hasbsburg empire. 5. Given how much OTL Bismarck was mindful of keeping Russia friendly as much as possible, if A-H does not exist anymore as an alternative ally (or even if it survives in a weakened state w/o B-M), it is almost sure he would do all the necessary to keep Russia on Germany's side, including giving the Russians all the loans they want, within reasonable limits of course. Given ITTL Italy would be the loyal ally of Germany out of A-H's likely absence, compatible interests, and common hostility to France (and Austria, if it survives in a weakened state), a solid alliance with Russia would then make Germany's stategic situation secure. Bismarck was far too clever not to realize these facts and act accordingly, once they are established. If Russia gets Germany's economic and diplomatic support, it is never going to turn to France. On the other hand, a German-Russian-Italian alliance (what I'd call the 'Eastern Powers', or EP for short) would drive the formation of a British-French-Ottoman(-Austrian) Entente sooner rather than later, even if Anglo-French colonial rivalry might act as a delaying agent. France would be in dire need of allies for its planned war of revenge (its revanchist complex getting even more extreme if it suffered humiliation and lost border territories to Italy too), and Britain would likely freak out at combined German-Russian-Italian power well before Berlin (and Rome) starts a naval build-up. 10. Political butterflies more than anything else, and the fact Italy's poor performance in the 1866 discouraged both sides from renewing the Prussian-Italian alliance. ITTL, a good Italian war performance that gains more (or all, depending on whether Austria survives the war and its aftermath or not) of the Austrian irredenta would have the opposite effect, and make Berlin and Florence eager to renew a successful partnership. Add to this a greater success in 1866 would make both sides bolder in pursuing the case of German and Italian unification. This inevitably means a collision course with France about the issues of Luxemburg and Rome, making the Prusso-Italian alliance even more valuable. Just like OTL, if faced with diplomatic humiliation Napoleon III is likely to escalate and overestimate his chances of success in a war rather than budge. In this scenario, a bolder Italy would easily see its intervention as a golden oppotunity to settle all its remaining irredenta grievances with German (and Russian) support. If Rome is part of the casus belli, Italian participation in the war is automatic. 12. In an Habsburg breakup scenario, Russia is sure to claim Galicia and Bukovina. It may or may not care to claim control of Slovakia too, for strategic and expansionist reasons rather than Pan-Slav reasons (Pan-Slavism was not that influential in 1860s-1870s Russia, and then it was mostly aimed against the Ottomans rather than Austria or Hungary) depending on diplomatic butterflies and how much it expects from gain from fighting the Ottomans with Prussian/German and Italian support. If it does, I assume Russia would directly annex Slovakia, given it would be in territorial continuity with the Russian Empire, and never bother to set it up as an independent client state. Russia may well prefer to gain shared client-state control of an intact Hungary with Germany rather than making this claim. Germany may or may not accept this Russian claim, but if it does I assume a partition of Slovakia would then take place, with Germany annexing the western portion with an important German community (the Bratislava district) and Hungary would keep the southern area with a strong Hungarian presence (the area of the First Vienna Award). 'EP' is short for Eastern Powers, an alliance of Germany, Italy, Russia, and their Hungary co-client; participation of Russia would make the 'Central' label inappropriate, and if a general war (or at least Cold War-style polarization) takes place with an Anglo-French Entente, the 'Eastern' label would be very appopriate (admittedly a bit less so with the Ottomans in the Entente too, but geopolitical labels were never an exact science). 13. The issue is, ITTL a radical revolution in Germany becomes exceedingly unlikely if they are this successful in the unification wars and then win the equivalent of *WWI. Gradual peaceful reform to parliamentary monarchy under the rising pressure of the progressists becomes much more likely, more or less as it happened to the OTL German Empire with the October 1918 constitutional reforms. Russia is a more complex case, since they started from a much more authoritarian point and had much greater socio-political tensions. I'd assume much depends on whether dynastic butterflies still leave power in the hands of inept, inflexible reactionaries like Alexander III and Nicholas II. A longer-living, more successful Alexander II may easily set Russia on the path to become a slightly more conservative version of OTL Kaiserreich (i.e. the equivalent of the 1905 Constitution and a working Duma are established in the 1880s with the full support of the Tsar). In any case, with a more successful Russia, it becomes rather more likely an equivalent of the February Revolution may succeed, with the Bolsheviks never getting an opening or being easily crushed like the 1919 German Communists.
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