cornelis
Petty Officer 2nd Class
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
|
Post by cornelis on Aug 26, 2016 9:17:46 GMT
Instead of banning the religious dissenters from emigrating in the French colonies of North America (New France : Canada, Louisiana, Ohio Valley), the French Crown decides to encourage it. The "Alleged Reformed Religion" (religion prétendue réformée, the official name for Protestantism in France) is not allow in public on mainland France, but free in New France. The political structure stay the same : loyalty to the King, seigneurial system, social pre-eminence of the nobility.
So, instead of fleeing France after Louis XIV's rash decision, the Huguenots go west into New France. There were ca 800,000 protestants in France at the end of the 17th c. Could we expect 1,5 millions at the end of the 18th c. ?
In this situation, France would surely be able to resist the British conquests of the 18th c. (or rather, to divert enough support to save them and thus shedding its other enterprises such as India). What happen next is more open : will these french-protestant lands become the craddle of Revolution in France and eventually became an independent country, or will they unite with the english colonies in an equal revendication to the overseas masters, fuelled by the Enlightenment ideas ? In this scenario, the USA could become another country, with a faster rate of growth, a bi-lingual setting (not unlike Canada), but keeping almost all the same institutions.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,860
Likes: 13,244
|
Post by stevep on Aug 26, 2016 11:32:41 GMT
A lot would depend on the circumstances. If say you had ~800,000 French Huguenots settled in N America, say half the total, then there is a significantly more substantial obstacle to either British or America conquests of the French colonies. Possibly not enough to stop it totally given the number of English speaking settlers and possibly the greater naval and industrial strength but you could end up seeing either a substantial French speaking minority, say a Canada on steroids, or possibly a sizeable independent French state.
It would require that France stays religious more tolerant and allows this acceptance of Huguenots in the colonies for the foreseeable future as at any point that it ends there is great potential for rebellion by the probable Huguenot majority majority in N America.
The other obvious butterfly, with a much larger French settlement in its colonies, is that the English colonists are going to be a lot more aware of the need for defence so the stance of the hard liners in the OTL revolution in the colonies, that they will contribute nothing towards this, is likely to be far more bitterly opposed, both in Britain and the colonies themselves. Therefore you might see the English colonies staying loyal until such time as they probably form an independent kingdom, say ~1850-60. They are likely, while directly British or afterwards to take some lands from the French simply because, unless there continues to be massive French settlement the English speakers will outnumber them. However you could have a clear French speaking state established in say modern Canada possibly with more of the Great Lakes. I think Louisiana is less likely to stay French because historically settlement was concentrated in Canada more and because its possession, especially New Orleans and control of the Mississippi, is going to be more important to the English settlers seeking to move west from the eastern coastal colonies.
A lot would again depend on the details. Its not impossible for Louisiana to survive in full but I suspect this wouldn't be the case. If so ultimately it might surpass the English states in population simply because it has room for expansion and they do not. However I think more likely a larger Canada with an overwhelming French population, say ~25-30 million by ~1900 and a somewhat smaller kingdom of America with say 60-75M in the same period.
|
|
cornelis
Petty Officer 2nd Class
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
|
Post by cornelis on Aug 26, 2016 14:06:17 GMT
Agreed, it is not possible to describe two key points, as this eventuality was never adressed in any plans in the 17th c.
1. Where will the Huguenots settlement be ? Canada or Louisana ? Canada is more organized, but Louisana is more promising.
2. What will the Spanish do ? A massive settlement at the doors of Mexico is not likely to please them, especially when the settlers are heretical spawn of Satan. Could the British ally themselves with the Spanish against the French ?
If we stay on the Canada scenario, it would be quite ironic to see a République américaine or canadienne stretching from Oregon to Quebec and from Ohio to Alaska and a Kingdom of New England or America; with Elizabeth II as chief of State, from Maine to Zacatecas (hey, one got to expand somewhere and the Spanish/Mexicans are the easy target) and from California to Florida.
The Coal Region will give the English Americans a headstart in the Industrial Revolution, assuming a better economic growth than in French America.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,860
Likes: 13,244
|
Post by stevep on Aug 26, 2016 19:55:31 GMT
Agreed, it is not possible to describe two key points, as this eventuality was never adressed in any plans in the 17th c. 1. Where will the Huguenots settlement be ? Canada or Louisana ? Canada is more organized, but Louisana is more promising. 2. What will the Spanish do ? A massive settlement at the doors of Mexico is not likely to please them, especially when the settlers are heretical spawn of Satan. Could the British ally themselves with the Spanish against the French ? If we stay on the Canada scenario, it would be quite ironic to see a République américaine or canadienne stretching from Oregon to Quebec and from Ohio to Alaska and a Kingdom of New England or America; with Elizabeth II as chief of State, from Maine to Zacatecas (hey, one got to expand somewhere and the Spanish/Mexicans are the easy target) and from California to Florida. The Coal Region will give the English Americans a headstart in the Industrial Revolution, assuming a better economic growth than in French America. 1) Canada is more organised and possibly less problems with disease compared to southern Louisiana. However as you say Louisiana has more longer term potential and Canada already has an established political establishment, which is conservative and Catholic so its unlikely to welcome a flood of heretics especially when it might outnumbered them pretty quickly. Although St Lawrence and the Lakes possibly give a easier link into the interior? I suspect that Canada might be a longer term option for a surviving independent state as unless the French can hold the Ohio and Mississippi line they are likely to be out-populated by the English. If so I can see the latter spreading west rather than north although the French might secure much of the old NW region, which would give them a much larger potential industrial base. This might also mean that the border beyond the Mississippi might be at something like the 45th parallel or possibly even further south. 2) The Spanish won't welcome a large influx of Huguenots in N America and it would make a possible Bourbon monarchy in Spain less welcome in Madrid but there might not be a lot they could do about it. The only way I could see Spain and Britain allied for more than a short period would be if you got a Napoleonic type situation where France simply looks so great a threat. As you say a French republican greater Canada and a royalist English America would make an interesting contrast to what we have here.
|
|
bytor
Chief petty officer
I'm baaaack.
Posts: 132
Likes: 68
|
Post by bytor on Sept 2, 2016 21:47:48 GMT
The Huguenots can still go to New France - just to what eventually came to be called Upper Canada which had hardly any Europeans in it rather than staying Lower Canada where they wouldn't be bothered by the established Catholic settlers, and spreading eventually past Detroit.
However, 800,000 Huguenots are freaking huge amount of people. That's a fricking lot of people to come from France in the 1600s, especially since New France only had about 2500 people by 1663 and still only 9,700 by 1681 when the Sun King really started cracking down on the Huguenots. Even the USA with better southern climes only had 950,000 immigrants, including the African slaves, from 1607 and founding of Jamestown, the first permanent English settlement, until 1790, 183 years later.
It's going to be next to impossible to move many Huguenots over to New France before the British take it from the French in 1763.
|
|
cornelis
Petty Officer 2nd Class
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
|
Post by cornelis on Sept 5, 2016 21:00:30 GMT
Why ? The emigration rates can not be compared between volontary (or proprietary-sponsored) emigration and royal policy of settlement. The Louisiana claim is huge, no shortage of land (or warmer climate) there. The one thing who could forbid it is an all-out naval war in the 1600' but, blessed France, thery were few at that time.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,860
Likes: 13,244
|
Post by stevep on Sept 5, 2016 23:01:38 GMT
Why ? The emigration rates can not be compared between volontary (or proprietary-sponsored) emigration and royal policy of settlement. The Louisiana claim is huge, no shortage of land (or warmer climate) there. The one thing who could forbid it is an all-out naval war in the 1600' but, blessed France, thery were few at that time. Cornelis As bytor said the British colonies only had about 950k settlers in a much longer period and I'm not sure whether that number is the people who started off or the people who arrived. Also that included very large numbers of slaves. To get something like 800k Huguenots in such a short period would be a massive programme and unlikely to succeed. Also if Louis XIV is forcing them to leave rather than just encouraging then its likely that, as OTL, many will leave to neighbouring but more tolerant [to them] states such as the Netherlands and Britain. Furthermore while a religiously more tolerant Louis XIV may ease internal tension in France its still likely to have a lot of the wars of his time period, which is likely to cause a lot of disruption to such planned large scale immigrantion. Another factor is there is a lot of land in Louisiana but it isn't empty. The French generally got on better with the local Indians than the British or the Americans but that was very much because they had relatively few settlers, often fur traders and the like. If they start trying to settle such huge numbers of people they will have a lot more conflict with the Indians, who while they wouldn't have the same technology as the French know the land a lot better and will at least initially have larger numbers. Again if this means moving across an ocean, with the obvious high death tolls on the trip, to go to a bitterly contested and relatively primitive land then a lot of Huguenots are going to find other alternatives more attractive. I can see a lot of Huguenots ending up in N America under such a system, but not the large numbers your talking about. Not to mention that there are going to be tensions between them and their Catholic rulers, who will no doubt seek to maintain political and economic power, so it could be a dangerous move for the French monarchy, especially if/whenever there is renewed religious conflict in France. Steve
|
|
cornelis
Petty Officer 2nd Class
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
|
Post by cornelis on Sept 8, 2016 11:56:38 GMT
OK, misunderstanding here, I may not have been clear. I never thought the Huguenot migration can be held after 1685 and be a massive deportation of all the dissenting population, Moriscos-style. Rather, I put the hypothesis of an open migration, beginning in the late 16th c., as the solution to the religious issues in France is allowing the public protestant cult only in the colonies. The Royal Huguenot Colonies is an alternative to the Edict of Nantes, not the Edict of Fontainebleau. On such a timeline, the emigration of 800,000 people is not impossible.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,860
Likes: 13,244
|
Post by stevep on Sept 8, 2016 18:15:18 GMT
OK, misunderstanding here, I may not have been clear. I never thought the Huguenot migration can be held after 1685 and be a massive deportation of all the dissenting population, Moriscos-style. Rather, I put the hypothesis of an open migration, beginning in the late 16th c., as the solution to the religious issues in France is allowing the public protestant cult only in the colonies. The Royal Huguenot Colonies is an alternative to the Edict of Nantes, not the Edict of Fontainebleau. On such a timeline, the emigration of 800,000 people is not impossible. Cornelis Ok that makes more sense. Suspect its still a number not likely to be reached for the reasons mentioned. Especially since the earlier the migration starts the greater the death toll on transit is likely to be. However you could probably get say 200-500k if your able to keep it going over such a period of time. Which would not exceed the Anglo population but could make a hell of a difference in keeping a large chunk of N America [other than OTL Quebec] French speaking. As I say there would still be a question of how loyal a Huguenot French America would be to a Catholic French monarchy over a prolonged period, but that is a different issue. Steve
|
|
doug181
Chief petty officer
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
|
Post by doug181 on Oct 29, 2016 18:25:27 GMT
If the Huguenots move into the Ohio valleyt theyt will have plenty of coal or into Illinois
|
|