lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 20, 2016 13:23:26 GMT
Thank you - nope, it would not be. The "Battle of the Golden Gate" is an espy mash-up of Petropavlovsk and the Taku Forts. Considering the Russians defeated the Allies in the one and the Chinese defeated the British at the other - including sinking three RN warships, largest single RN loss between Lake Champlain in 1814 and Coronel in 1914 - it's historically justifiable. All the individuals, ships, and military units are historical, as are most of the quotes in the San Francisco section. Becky Howard was "real" as well; she was fun to read about. Thanks for the comment. They are appreciated. Did the Royal Navy sufferd their worse loss in a single battle or where you just speaking historical losses and not BROS losses.
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tfsmith121
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 20, 2016 20:14:08 GMT
Historically; the RN lost four commissioned warships at Lake Champlain in 1814 to the Americans, three to the Chinese at the Taku Forts in 1859, and two to the Germans at Coronel in 1914. Champlain and Coronel were both squadron actions; 2nd Taku was a British squadron against shore defenses, the results of which call many of the "steam past the defenses and bombard the city" memes that are so common in writing about this era into question.
In BROS, of course, losses have been higher all around...
Best,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2016 3:19:24 GMT
Historically; the RN lost four commissioned warships at Lake Champlain in 1814 to the Americans, three to the Chinese at the Taku Forts in 1859, and two to the Germans at Coronel in 1914. Champlain and Coronel were both squadron actions; 2nd Taku was a British squadron against shore defenses, the results of which call many of the "steam past the defenses and bombard the city" memes that are so common in writing about this era into question. In BROS, of course, losses have been higher all around... Best, I would think the United states as result will build up their navy more on the West coast to prevent a new attack by the British, and how is Hawaii going to solve the problem of keeping their Independence now they cannot play the British and Americans against each other, will the British under pretext of a American invasion deploy troops to Hawaii thereby making the islands a British protectorate.
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tfsmith121
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 21, 2016 14:55:15 GMT
The USN in the Pacific could do two things, defend San Francisco Bay and arm and dispatch commerce raiders; the forces outlined above on both sides are, historically, what each had in the Pacific in the winter of 1862. I would expect additional action on the Pacific Coast... Hawaii is an obvious strategic point between the Western Pacific and the West Coast of North America; just like the Isthmus of Panama, the importance of the position to the British in an Anglo-American conflict is obvious. What might happen after such a conflict is presumably equally obvious, and the reality is the future of these positions would likely become a point of contention in the "future" sketched out in BROS. As always, thanks for commenting. It is appreciated. Best,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2016 14:59:20 GMT
The USN in the Pacific could do two things, defend San Francisco Bay and arm and dispatch commerce raiders; the forces outlined above on both sides are, historically, what each had in the Pacific in the winter of 1862. I would expect additional action on the Pacific Coast... Best, Does the United States have the facilities and resources to build ships in the West Coast or are the mostly located on the East Coast, also could United States move ships to the Pacific because i would assume that with the journey being long (as there is no Panama Canal yet) the United States Navy based out of the West Coast has do what they already have there.
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tfsmith121
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 21, 2016 20:07:19 GMT
The Mare Island Navy Yard (inner San Francisco Bay) had a limited capacity for building small vessels; a side wheel gunboat, USS Saginaw, had been built there for service in China. In addition, the civilian shipyards in San Francisco (notably, Union Iron Works) had some capacity as well. Both complexes were quite capable of repairing and refitting warships and merchant vessels, and the Army's Benicia Arsenal was a fairly extensive facility for the day. In both cases, probably the closest similar capabilities in British hands would have been in India.
Basically, the Pacific in the event of an Anglo-American conflict in 1862 is a come as you are sort of theater. Given that, absent a major reinforcement and sustainment effort of the British by way of the South Atlantic, Indian, and western Pacific, stalemate after the initial battles is likely; in many ways, not unlike the situation in 1854-55.
As always, appreciate the read and the questions. Mind if I repost on Warships1? Might prompt some further discussion. Thanks.
Best,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 21, 2016 20:09:49 GMT
The Mare Island Navy Yard (inner San Francisco Bay) had a limited capacity for building small vessels; a side wheel gunboat, USS Saginaw, had been built there for service in China. In addition, the civilian shipyards in San Francisco (notably, Union Iron Works) had some capacity as well. Both complexes were quite capable of repairing and refitting warships and merchant vessels, and the Army's Benicia Arsenal was a fairly extensive facility for the day. In both cases, probably the closest similar capabilities in British hands would have been in India. Basically, the Pacific in the event of an Anglo-American conflict in 1862 is a come as you are sort of theater. Given that, absent a major reinforcement and sustainment effort of the British by way of the South Atlantic, Indian, and western Pacific, stalemate after the initial battles is likely; in many ways, not unlike the situation in 1854-55. As always, appreciate the read and the questions. Mind if I repost on Warships1? Might prompt some further discussion. Thanks. Best, No problem, seems that your thread is the hottest around on Warships1 at this moment.
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tfsmith121
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 22, 2016 3:17:23 GMT
Many thanks
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2016 8:25:06 GMT
No problem. Question Anaconda Plan which was in planning if i am right will not work with the British involved am i right.
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tfsmith121
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 22, 2016 20:32:50 GMT
Correct. At this point (summer, 1862) the RN has lifted the USN's blockade of the rebel states, so the US would be limited to overland and riverine operations.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 22, 2016 20:39:55 GMT
Correct. At this point (summer, 1862) the RN has lifted the USN's blockade of the rebel states, so the US would be limited to overland and riverine operations. So the United States Navy has no ability to blockade the Confederacy and prevent attacks by the Royal Navy from taking place at the same place, this will mean the Confederacy will be able to trade with the outside world and allow the British to send supplies to the Confederacy.
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tfsmith121
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 23, 2016 2:56:54 GMT
The USN can certainly do its part to defend against the RN's attempts at blockading US ports, and raid commerce to and from the rebel ports; the USN is also far better placed then the rebels or the British, for that matter, to control the western rivers and the Great Lakes and Upper St. Lawrence.
Sea power had a limited impact on peer competitors in continental warfare in this period; French sea power was useless against the Germans in -870-71, and the Austrians actually won the only fleet action in European waters in this era and still lost their war.
There's also the question of what, exactly, southern cotton would buy in a saturated market that (historically) led the Europeans to develop alternate sources...
Best,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 23, 2016 5:48:38 GMT
The USN can certainly do its part to defend against the RN's attempts at blockading US ports, and raid commerce to and from the rebel ports; the USN is also far better placed then the rebels or the British, for that matter, to control the western rivers and the Great Lakes and Upper St. Lawrence. Sea power had a limited impact on peer competitors in continental warfare in this period; French sea power was useless against the Germans in -870-71, and the Austrians actually won the only fleet action in European waters in this era and still lost their war. There's also the question of what, exactly, southern cotton would buy in a saturated market that (historically) led the Europeans to develop alternate sources... Best, Well one thing i do see happening is that more Irish sympathy will happen to the Union struggle against both the British and Confederacy, i once watched Gods and Generals the movie and it amazed me that there where Irish units on both sides, i wonder if that is still the case here.
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tfsmith121
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Post by tfsmith121 on Jul 24, 2016 23:57:50 GMT
Definitely something one would expect, which is part of where I was going with the Battle of Alewife Brook section, with Meagher' reinforced brigade facing a British infantry brigade on Cape Elizabeth. It was also something the British themselves were concerned about (historically) during the 1861 crisis, according to KF Bourne. THe passage is below:
1 Newcastle to Palmerston, private, 30 Aug. and 3 Sept., Broadlands papers: part of the second letter is printed in John Martineau, Life of Henry Pelham, 5th. Duke of New- castle (London, 1908), pp. 302-3; Palmerston to Newcastle, private, I Sept. and 7 Nov., Palmerston letter-books, Brit. Mus. Add. MS. 48582; Palmerston to Russell, private, 17 Sept., Russell papers, P.R.O. 30/22/21. The importance of the argument about desertion is an interesting reflection upon the difficulties under which the British laboured as a result of their prejudice against conscript forces. It served not only to hold up the reinforcements but also to affect the distribution of those that did go. Williams, who at first had intended to station the 3oth regiment at Quebec and the 4th bn. 6oth Rifles at Toronto, comparatively close to the frontier, later reversed his decision because the latter, being mostly composed of young men, would be more likely to desert. And much of the only local regular regiment, the Royal Canadian Rifles, had to be used in small detachments to prevent desertion from the British units. (Williams to Cambridge, private, 24 June and 12 July, duke of Cambridge's papers in the Royal Archives, Windsor. I have to acknowledge the gracious permission of Her Majesty the Queen to make use of material from the Royal Archives.) Special problems of a similar kind were presented by the negro West Indian and the Irish regiments, both of whom were considered unreliable against the North. (Memorandum by de Grey, 3 Dec., Lewis papers in the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth, Harpton Court papers 2948; Palmerston to Herbert, private, 4 June, Palmerston letter-books, Brit. Mus. Add. MS. 48582.)
Source is British Preparations for War with the North, 1861-1862 Author(s): Kenneth Bourne Source: The English Historical Review, Vol. 76, No. 301 (Oct., 1961), pp. 600-632
Best,
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 25, 2016 2:47:03 GMT
Definitely something one would expect, which is part of where I was going with the Battle of Alewife Brook section, with Meagher' reinforced brigade facing a British infantry brigade on Cape Elizabeth. It was also something the British themselves were concerned about (historically) during the 1861 crisis, according to KF Bourne. THe passage is below: 1 Newcastle to Palmerston, private, 30 Aug. and 3 Sept., Broadlands papers: part of the second letter is printed in John Martineau, Life of Henry Pelham, 5th. Duke of New- castle (London, 1908), pp. 302-3; Palmerston to Newcastle, private, I Sept. and 7 Nov., Palmerston letter-books, Brit. Mus. Add. MS. 48582; Palmerston to Russell, private, 17 Sept., Russell papers, P.R.O. 30/22/21. The importance of the argument about desertion is an interesting reflection upon the difficulties under which the British laboured as a result of their prejudice against conscript forces. It served not only to hold up the reinforcements but also to affect the distribution of those that did go. Williams, who at first had intended to station the 3oth regiment at Quebec and the 4th bn. 6oth Rifles at Toronto, comparatively close to the frontier, later reversed his decision because the latter, being mostly composed of young men, would be more likely to desert. And much of the only local regular regiment, the Royal Canadian Rifles, had to be used in small detachments to prevent desertion from the British units. (Williams to Cambridge, private, 24 June and 12 July, duke of Cambridge's papers in the Royal Archives, Windsor. I have to acknowledge the gracious permission of Her Majesty the Queen to make use of material from the Royal Archives.) Special problems of a similar kind were presented by the negro West Indian and the Irish regiments, both of whom were considered unreliable against the North. (Memorandum by de Grey, 3 Dec., Lewis papers in the National Library of Wales, Aberystwyth, Harpton Court papers 2948; Palmerston to Herbert, private, 4 June, Palmerston letter-books, Brit. Mus. Add. MS. 48582.) Source is British Preparations for War with the North, 1861-1862 Author(s): Kenneth Bourne Source: The English Historical Review, Vol. 76, No. 301 (Oct., 1961), pp. 600-632 Best, So the British where afraid that Irish Regiments would switch sides if the where yo encounter Union forces.
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