futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 20, 2016 4:24:28 GMT
What if English King Henry V would have lived at least a decade or two more than he lived in real life?
Would he have been able to conquer all of France? If so, would England have been able to permanently keep control of France in this scenario?
Also, would the Wars of the Roses be completely butterflied away in this scenario considering that Henry V's son Henry (VI) would have been much older (in comparison to real life) when he would have become King of England in this scenario?
Any thoughts on all of this?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 20, 2016 14:15:28 GMT
What if English King Henry V would have lived at least a decade or two more than he lived in real life? Would he have been able to conquer all of France? If so, would England have been able to permanently keep control of France in this scenario? Also, would the Wars of the Roses be completely butterflied away in this scenario considering that Henry V's son Henry (VI) would have been much older (in comparison to real life) when he would have become King of England in this scenario? Any thoughts on all of this? Is it possible to conquer all of France. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 20, 2016 22:16:13 GMT
Its probably possibly to get Henry accepted as the ruler of all France by the assorted nobles. Espeically given his military success, his marriage to the daughter of the previous French king and his own decent claim to the title. However keeping it after his death without the dynasty becoming basically a French one would be very difficult. Even assuming Henry VI doesn't have the OTL personality problems that he is supposed to have got from his mother.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 22, 2016 7:37:24 GMT
Its probably possibly to get Henry accepted as the ruler of all France by the assorted nobles. Espeically given his military success, his marriage to the daughter of the previous French king and his own decent claim to the title. However keeping it after his death without the dynasty becoming basically a French one would be very difficult. Even assuming Henry VI doesn't have the OTL personality problems that he is supposed to have got from his mother. Completely agreed with all of this.  Also, though, here is another, similar question: What if Henry V dies shortly before he can actually conceive his son Henry VI? Indeed, any thoughts on this? After all, in this scenario one of Henry V's adult brothers would become King of England rather than the infant Henry VI. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 22, 2016 16:19:46 GMT
Its probably possibly to get Henry accepted as the ruler of all France by the assorted nobles. Espeically given his military success, his marriage to the daughter of the previous French king and his own decent claim to the title. However keeping it after his death without the dynasty becoming basically a French one would be very difficult. Even assuming Henry VI doesn't have the OTL personality problems that he is supposed to have got from his mother. Completely agreed with all of this. Also, though, here is another, similar question: What if Henry V dies shortly before he can actually conceive his son Henry VI? Indeed, any thoughts on this? After all, in this scenario one of Henry V's adult brothers would become King of England rather than the infant Henry VI. Interesting question. IIRC, which may not be the case, Henry V was accepted as the legimate successor of the previous French king, Charles VI. However I can see a lot of French leaders arguing this wouldn't apply to one of his brothers if he left no offspring via his French wife. What is the timing on this, I thought he died before the French king anyway so dying earlier, i.e. before Henry VI is conceived Charles VI would still be alive. [Checking OTL Charles VI died on 21st Oct while Henry died on 31st August, less than two months before. Henry was born 6th Dec 1421 so Henry V would have had to have died more than a year before he did OTL and Charles would have outlived him by nearly two years. Possibly an alternative route is that for whatever reason Henry VI isn't conceived before Henry died. Or possibly that he doesn't pick up whatever bad gene combination he got from his mother. That might be the best option as there could be sympathy for the young child and his widowed mother in France? I still think the problem of a 'English' monarch ruling France without becoming predominantly French within a couple of generations and hence prompting unrest in his British territories would be pretty much overwhelming. |
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 22, 2016 23:30:13 GMT
Completely agreed with all of this. Also, though, here is another, similar question: What if Henry V dies shortly before he can actually conceive his son Henry VI? Indeed, any thoughts on this? After all, in this scenario one of Henry V's adult brothers would become King of England rather than the infant Henry VI. 1. Interesting question. IIRC, which may not be the case, Henry V was accepted as the legimate successor of the previous French king, Charles VI. However I can see a lot of French leaders arguing this wouldn't apply to one of his brothers if he left no offspring via his French wife. 2. What is the timing on this, I thought he died before the French king anyway so dying earlier, i.e. before Henry VI is conceived Charles VI would still be alive. [Checking OTL Charles VI died on 21st Oct while Henry died on 31st August, less than two months before. Henry was born 6th Dec 1421 so Henry V would have had to have died more than a year before he did OTL and Charles would have outlived him by nearly two years. 3. Possibly an alternative route is that for whatever reason Henry VI isn't conceived before Henry died. 4. Or possibly that he doesn't pick up whatever bad gene combination he got from his mother. 5. That might be the best option as there could be sympathy for the young child and his widowed mother in France? 6. I still think the problem of a 'English' monarch ruling France without becoming predominantly French within a couple of generations and hence prompting unrest in his British territories would be pretty much overwhelming. 1. Agreed. However, couldn't subsequent English military victories in France eventually force the French leaders and nobility to change their minds in regards to this and to sign a new treaty with England? 2. Well, let's have Henry V die just one or two days before he can conceive Henry VI. Indeed, would that work for this? 3. You mean due to Henry V having sex with his wife on different nights in comparison to real life? 4. That might be rather hard to do, though.  After all, the impression that I get is that mental illness and mental instability had a continuous link among Henry VI's ancestors for several generations. Indeed, based on Wikipedia (Yes, not always the most reliable source  ), Henry VI got mental illness through his mother, Catherine of Valois, who in turn got it through her father, King Charles VI of France, who in turn got it through his mother, Joanna of Bourbon, who in turn got it through her father, Peter I, Duke of Bourbon, who in turn got it through his father, Louis I, Duke of Bourbon. Thus, it might be rather hard for Henry VI to avoid the inheritance of this mental illness. (Interestingly enough, though, James I, Count of La Marche, the younger son of Louis I, Duke of Bourbon, doesn't appear to have had mental illness or mental instability. Indeed, it is through James I, Count of La Marche that the Bourbon Kings of France are descended in the male line.) 5. Yes, but the challenge is not passing down a mental illness that has already consistently been passed down for several generations. 6. What about having the English King(s) try creating a new, unified national culture and identity for France and England in this scenario in order to try avoiding or at least reducing the scale/degree/extent of this problem, though? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 23, 2016 20:22:03 GMT
1) Possibly, this would require more fighting however and extending a long and costly war.
2) If Henry dies earlier and Henry VI isn't born then who's the new English king? Plus part of the point was that the deal with Charles VI was that the throne would go to Henry V and his line, which would be legitimised by the marriage to Catherine of Valois. The new English monarch wouldn't have this link.
£ & 4 & 5) - Yes that's my idea. After all as you say the problem did die out in the Bourbon line. Similarly in the most famous case Victoria's children introduced hemaphila into a number of royal familys but not into the British one. I think its perfectly possible and the best way forward. As I say a healthy child who is the legimate heir to both thrones with sympathy and also respect for his heroic father is the best bet.
6) You could try but there are already fairly deep rooted identities. More specifically what language would be used and where would the capital be. Paris would antagonise the English and London the French. Nationalism isn't as strong a force as it was later but is was still significant and the two groups, with occasional variations in identity, have been fighting over this issue for a century and by some measures since ~1066. [If Henry II had won it might be a different matter although I think continued French domination would have sparked national opposition in England sooner or later.
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After all, the impression that I get is that mental illness and mental instability had a continuous link among Henry VI's ancestors for several generations. Indeed, based on Wikipedia (Yes, not always the most reliable source 
), Henry VI got mental illness through his mother, Catherine of Valois, who in turn got it through her father, King Charles VI of France, who in turn got it through his mother, Joanna of Bourbon, who in turn got it through her father, Peter I, Duke of Bourbon, who in turn got it through his father, Louis I, Duke of Bourbon.