futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 16, 2016 17:45:50 GMT
What if William the Conquer would have lose the Battle of Hastings (in 1066)?
How would English history over the last 950 years have turned out?
Any thoughts on this?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 16, 2016 17:48:52 GMT
What if William the Conquer would have lose the Battle of Hastings (in 1066)? How would English history over the last 950 years have turned out? Any thoughts on this? The English language would certainly be different.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 16, 2016 17:57:07 GMT
What if William the Conquer would have lose the Battle of Hastings (in 1066)? How would English history over the last 950 years have turned out? Any thoughts on this? The English language would certainly be different. Agreed. Indeed, there would certainly be much less French influence in the English language.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 16, 2016 18:08:32 GMT
The English language would certainly be different. Agreed. Indeed, there would certainly be much less French influence in the English language. Could Anglo-Saxon King Harold Godwinson as a result having won the battle decide to invade France or will he stay where he is happy to be still sitting on his throne waiting for the next person to try to remove him from power.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 16, 2016 18:09:48 GMT
Agreed. Indeed, there would certainly be much less French influence in the English language. Could Anglo-Saxon King Harold Godwinson as a result having won the battle decide to invade France or will he stay where he is happy to be still sitting on his throne waiting for the next person to try to remove him from power. Frankly, I think that he would avoid foreign adventures for a while considering that his army would be exhausted from defeating two invading armies in a row within a short period of time.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 16, 2016 18:10:20 GMT
Indeed, I think that the Norwegians tried to invade England in 1066 right before William the Conqueror's invasion.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 16, 2016 18:15:12 GMT
Could Anglo-Saxon King Harold Godwinson as a result having won the battle decide to invade France or will he stay where he is happy to be still sitting on his throne waiting for the next person to try to remove him from power. Frankly, I think that he would avoid foreign adventures for a while considering that his army would be exhausted from defeating two invading armies in a row within a short period of time. Well he can at least have his throne a little bit longer than the 9 months he had until he was killed in the battle. Indeed, I think that the Norwegians tried to invade England in 1066 right before William the Conqueror's invasion. Well somebody will try to invade, England is a very prized target to have.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 17, 2016 1:02:05 GMT
In the longer term its difficult to tell what might have happened if Harold had won. Leaving aside how butterflies might be affected by how he won and what the costs were. He still had the earls of Northumbria and Mercia who were bitter rivals to his family. [Although they were nothing like his match as a military commander].
Can't see him seeking to invade France. Especially since it was basically a private operation by the Duke of Normandy, along with such mercenaries he could bride with offers of land, rather than any specifically French aggression.
Harold had defeated the Norwegians at Stamford Bridge [near York] a few weeks before the disaster at Hastings so his army would have been feeling the strain after two bloody battles, even in victory. However with the forces of Norway and hopefully also of Normandy largely dead I doubt there would be external threats for the near future. Even the Scots, the perennial threat to the north, are likely to be cautious for a while.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 19, 2016 2:40:01 GMT
In the longer term its difficult to tell what might have happened if Harold had won. Leaving aside how butterflies might be affected by how he won and what the costs were. He still had the earls of Northumbria and Mercia who were bitter rivals to his family. [Although they were nothing like his match as a military commander]. Can't see him seeking to invade France. Especially since it was basically a private operation by the Duke of Normandy, along with such mercenaries he could bride with offers of land, rather than any specifically French aggression. Harold had defeated the Norwegians at Stamford Bridge [near York] a few weeks before the disaster at Hastings so his army would have been feeling the strain after two bloody battles, even in victory. However with the forces of Norway and hopefully also of Normandy largely dead I doubt there would be external threats for the near future. Even the Scots, the perennial threat to the north, are likely to be cautious for a while. Completely agreed with all of this.
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Post by futurist on Jun 19, 2016 2:41:22 GMT
Frankly, I think that he would avoid foreign adventures for a while considering that his army would be exhausted from defeating two invading armies in a row within a short period of time. 1. Well he can at least have his throne a little bit longer than the 9 months he had until he was killed in the battle. Indeed, I think that the Norwegians tried to invade England in 1066 right before William the Conqueror's invasion. 2. Well somebody will try to invade, England is a very prized target to have. 1. For much longer than 9 months, actually. 2. Possibly eventually, but perhaps not for at least a couple of decades.
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doug181
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Post by doug181 on Oct 29, 2016 12:03:52 GMT
England does not become a continental as in OTL
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Post by lordroel on Oct 29, 2016 12:09:38 GMT
England does not become a continental as in OTL What do you mean does not become a continental as in OTL.
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Post by doug181 on Oct 30, 2016 20:49:12 GMT
How badly is William defeated?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 31, 2016 9:02:17 GMT
England does not become a continental as in OTL What do you mean does not become a continental as in OTL. Lordroel Damn I could have swore I responded to this but seem to have failed to post for some reasons. I suspect Doug means that England/Britain doesn't have the OTL links with the continent and especially France that happened in the Norman and Plantagenet period. Suspect there would still be links to Scandinavia and probably parts of Germany while also the wool trade is likely to mean economic contacts with Flanders as well. However without land in France its unlikely to be dragged into wars on the continent. England is likely to be the dominate state in the British Isles due to its size and suitable rich land. It will however be considerably different without the great centralisation and loss of local rights of the Norman period, as well as the widespread destruction of many towns and forced labour burden. Over times its likely to absorb or reduce to satellites Scotland and Wales, if only to stop raids from those states. Probably going to have continuation of good relations with Ireland without the Norman conquest of the latter. Might also see a survival of the Norse states in what's now the Islands and Highlands of Scotland although that depends on the circumstances. I think the Viking age is largely over and provided England remains reasonably stable it will be safe from new invasions, although you are likely to see raids from Denmark and Norway, when their not attacking each other. However probably going to see more peace and development of trade. England could play a greater part in trade in the Baltic region in this world. Of course this would also mean big impacts on France, as well as spreading across the wider world. With the Normans gravely weakened and quite possibly also leaderless its far less likely to become the main rival to the French monarchy in Paris. This might mean an earlier reunification of France as a centralised state or other regional lords might rise to become new challengers. Possibly without a clear foreign [i.e. English] link its a chance that you could see a longer lasting period of division in France. Again those will echo around the wider European world with relations with Germany, Italy and the Christian states in Spain and then beyond. Not to mention we are soon to be entering the crusades period, which might occur even if Byzantium avoids its catastrophic defeat by the Seljuk Turks and following civil war. With the Normans significantly less powerful, although you might see more of them moving to south Italy, and England not tied to France I wonder how the crusades might be different in character? Steve
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Post by stevep on Oct 31, 2016 9:15:41 GMT
How badly is William defeated? Doug I would guess pretty badly. Its getting late in the year so a retreat by sea could be risky. Also given the way the Normans have been ravaging the local lands, which include some areas which are part of Harold's own estates, their not likely to be treated with much mercy if they fail disastrously. Presumably Harold survives and the English hold on the 1st day, with more reinforcements arriving and the Normans having suffered heavy losses either William tries to withdraw by sea, in which case the rest of the army might get away or if he stays too long Harold can probably overwhelm the Normans and very few are likely to survive. In this case William probably gets as much English land as Harald Hardrada. Even if William escapes with say half of his army he will be weakened in both power and prestige. Also he has recruited many troops by offering land in England and there are going to be a lot of disgruntled soldiers as well as local rivals who might see a chance to reduce his power further for their own benefit. If he dies along with most of the army then Normandy will be greatly weakened, possibly fatally so. His heir is only 15 and could fall foul of opponents and you could see a prolonged period of disorder in Normandy rather than it coming to control much of northern France. This is also likely to influence Norman activities elsewhere. You could see their presence in S Italy weakened, or possibly strengthened because more Normans flee disorder in the north. There's not going to be attacks on Scotland or invasions of Ireland for instance so a lot of butterflies. Steve
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