pericles
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Post by pericles on Apr 22, 2016 22:55:48 GMT
What if Iran never had the Islamic Revolution of 1979 and the Pahlavi dynasty remained in power? What PoD would be needed to keep the Shah and his successors in power? What would be the effects of an Iran that remains a US ally? How would this effect US politics? What would Iran be like TTL? How would this effect the Middle East? I think the Iran-Iraq War would be avoided, so Saddam Hussein might remain in power and Iran wouldn't support Hezbollah, but what would be the other effects? What if?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2016 8:55:14 GMT
What if Iran never had the Islamic Revolution of 1979 and the Pahlavi dynasty remained in power? What PoD would be needed to keep the Shah and his successors in power? What would be the effects of an Iran that remains a US ally? How would this effect US politics? What would Iran be like TTL? How would this effect the Middle East? I think the Iran-Iraq War would be avoided, so Saddam Hussein might remain in power and Iran wouldn't support Hezbollah, but what would be the other effects? What if? Mohammad Reza Pahlavi dies in 1976 a year before the OTL, Iranian Revolution should have begun, his son Reza Pahlavi becomes the shah at age 17 and start some major reforms including disbanding the Iranian secret police SAVAK and other reforms,by 1980 Iran is a real Constitutional monarchy, Iraq who think that Iran is weakened invades starting a different Iraq-Iran War.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 23, 2016 9:56:24 GMT
Lordroel
That's a possible POD that could have some interesting effects. If the Soviets still occupy Afghanistan, while the latter is largely Sunni possibly a moderate and forward looking Iran is the main ally and condurate of arms to the rebels rather than Pakistan? Which could moderate the spread of extremism in that country as well.
Iran is still likely to have problems with religious extremists and people like Khomeini will still seek to seize power but a reformist Shah could gain a lot of support from popular and commercial elements who were the back-bone of the movement to overthrow the Shah OTL until they were effective couped by Khomeini when he established his dictatorship and personality cult.
If Saddam tries a clash with an Iran in the midst of reform that could be very hairy as the Soviets might feel they need to support him while the US [and probably UK] are likely to support Iran. [Especially with the Soviets in Afghanistan as it might seem that the west's major Muslim ally is threatened by the Soviets and their proxies]. I suspect it wouldn't come to a major shooting war and also Syria is likely to support Iran against its old enemy so Iraq would be highly vulnerable, let alone the question of its Shia majority in the south.
This could lead to the west and the main Shia populations becoming closely linked so whether you get an unholy counter-alliance of the Soviets and the Saudis?
Without reaction taking charge in Iran and the resulting hostage crisis and especially if there is tension in the ME over Soviet threats to Iran might that mean Reagan is defeated in 1980? At the very least his victory is likely to be much closer. Defeat would probably mean better government for the US in the 80's and a much smaller debt probably, especially if it butterflied the latter Bushs and his even greater debts. That could substantially boost America's position economy. Or you could still have the same mentality come along a bit later? Britain is still likely to have a Thatcher period but possibly if the Falkland's conflict is avoided or even lost then that could be a lot shorter and less destructive.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2016 10:01:40 GMT
Lordroel That's a possible POD that could have some interesting effects. If the Soviets still occupy Afghanistan, while the latter is largely Sunni possibly a moderate and forward looking Iran is the main ally and condurate of arms to the rebels rather than Pakistan? Which could moderate the spread of extremism in that country as well. Iran is still likely to have problems with religious extremists and people like Khomeini will still seek to seize power but a reformist Shah could gain a lot of support from popular and commercial elements who were the back-bone of the movement to overthrow the Shah OTL until they were effective couped by Khomeini when he established his dictatorship and personality cult. If Saddam tries a clash with an Iran in the midst of reform that could be very hairy as the Soviets might feel they need to support him while the US [and probably UK] are likely to support Iran. [Especially with the Soviets in Afghanistan as it might seem that the west's major Muslim ally is threatened by the Soviets and their proxies]. I suspect it wouldn't come to a major shooting war and also Syria is likely to support Iran against its old enemy so Iraq would be highly vulnerable, let alone the question of its Shia majority in the south. This could lead to the west and the main Shia populations becoming closely linked so whether you get an unholy counter-alliance of the Soviets and the Saudis? Without reaction taking charge in Iran and the resulting hostage crisis and especially if there is tension in the ME over Soviet threats to Iran might that mean Reagan is defeated in 1980? At the very least his victory is likely to be much closer. Defeat would probably mean better government for the US in the 80's and a much smaller debt probably, especially if it butterflied the latter Bushs and his even greater debts. That could substantially boost America's position economy. Or you could still have the same mentality come along a bit later? Britain is still likely to have a Thatcher period but possibly if the Falkland's conflict is avoided or even lost then that could be a lot shorter and less destructive. Steve A Soviet-Saudi alliance, a Iraq that is backed by the Soviet Union, Pakistan and Iran as US allies, the Middle East just became more mess up than it already was. i see Iran trying to support maybe pro-Iran government in Afghanistan, trying to keep Iraq and bay, a cold war with Saudi Arabia, well it seem that Iran is going to be busy in this universe, more than it was on OTL.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 23, 2016 10:12:19 GMT
Lordroel That's a possible POD that could have some interesting effects. If the Soviets still occupy Afghanistan, while the latter is largely Sunni possibly a moderate and forward looking Iran is the main ally and condurate of arms to the rebels rather than Pakistan? Which could moderate the spread of extremism in that country as well. Iran is still likely to have problems with religious extremists and people like Khomeini will still seek to seize power but a reformist Shah could gain a lot of support from popular and commercial elements who were the back-bone of the movement to overthrow the Shah OTL until they were effective couped by Khomeini when he established his dictatorship and personality cult. If Saddam tries a clash with an Iran in the midst of reform that could be very hairy as the Soviets might feel they need to support him while the US [and probably UK] are likely to support Iran. [Especially with the Soviets in Afghanistan as it might seem that the west's major Muslim ally is threatened by the Soviets and their proxies]. I suspect it wouldn't come to a major shooting war and also Syria is likely to support Iran against its old enemy so Iraq would be highly vulnerable, let alone the question of its Shia majority in the south. This could lead to the west and the main Shia populations becoming closely linked so whether you get an unholy counter-alliance of the Soviets and the Saudis? Without reaction taking charge in Iran and the resulting hostage crisis and especially if there is tension in the ME over Soviet threats to Iran might that mean Reagan is defeated in 1980? At the very least his victory is likely to be much closer. Defeat would probably mean better government for the US in the 80's and a much smaller debt probably, especially if it butterflied the latter Bushs and his even greater debts. That could substantially boost America's position economy. Or you could still have the same mentality come along a bit later? Britain is still likely to have a Thatcher period but possibly if the Falkland's conflict is avoided or even lost then that could be a lot shorter and less destructive. Steve A Soviet-Saudi alliance, a Iraq that is backed by the Soviet Union, Pakistan and Iran as US allies, the Middle East just became more mess up than it already was. i see Iran trying to support maybe pro-Iran government in Afghanistan, trying to keep Iraq and bay, a cold war with Saudi Arabia, well it seem that Iran is going to be busy in this universe, more than it was on OTL. I wouldn't say a Soviet-Saudi alliance would be that likely as the two hate each other but it might be a possible response if the sort of crisis I suggest means that links between Iran and the west get even closer. Especially if a Saddam fiasco means it looks like Iran is going to 'liberate' southern Iraq with its large Shia population. It could mean quite high Shia-Sunni tensions, similar to what we're getting now. Given their own substantial Shia populations in the eastern provinces, which is also where the majority of the oil is the Saudis are likely to feel very threatened. Even so the fact the vast majority of the Muslim population is Sunni and the Saudis and their Gulf allies have so much oil I suspect the west would seek some compromise that tries to keep both Saudi and Iran friendly. Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2016 11:04:09 GMT
A Soviet-Saudi alliance, a Iraq that is backed by the Soviet Union, Pakistan and Iran as US allies, the Middle East just became more mess up than it already was. i see Iran trying to support maybe pro-Iran government in Afghanistan, trying to keep Iraq and bay, a cold war with Saudi Arabia, well it seem that Iran is going to be busy in this universe, more than it was on OTL. I wouldn't say a Soviet-Saudi alliance would be that likely as the two hate each other but it might be a possible response if the sort of crisis I suggest means that links between Iran and the west get even closer. Especially if a Saddam fiasco means it looks like Iran is going to 'liberate' southern Iraq with its large Shia population. It could mean quite high Shia-Sunni tensions, similar to what we're getting now. Given their own substantial Shia populations in the eastern provinces, which is also where the majority of the oil is the Saudis are likely to feel very threatened. Even so the fact the vast majority of the Muslim population is Sunni and the Saudis and their Gulf allies have so much oil I suspect the west would seek some compromise that tries to keep both Saudi and Iran friendly. Steve I wonder who the US will side with more, if Iran is still a democracy after 1980, the US will have two allies who are somewhat rivals of each other.
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pericles
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Post by pericles on Apr 23, 2016 21:16:54 GMT
I think the Iran-Iraq War would be avoided, while there were some disputes Saddam would be wary of attacking a stable, strong Iran that is allied with the US. Only when Iran had lost its US alliance and was going through a period of instability did he feel comfortable to attack, and even then he was probably the loser of the war, failing to achieve his goals and getting huge debts and losses. So probably Saddam would not attack Iran TTL. That would probably mean he's still in power today.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2016 21:29:34 GMT
I think the Iran-Iraq War would be avoided, while there were some disputes Saddam would be wary of attacking a stable, strong Iran that is allied with the US. Only when Iran had lost its US alliance and was going through a period of instability did he feel comfortable to attack, and even then he was probably the loser of the war, failing to achieve his goals and getting huge debts and losses. So probably Saddam would not attack Iran TTL. That would probably mean he's still in power today. With no Iraq-Iran war there will be no Iraq debt hold by Kuwait and therefore with a strong Iran next door, Iraq will not invade Kuwait in the 1st Gulf War in 1990.
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pericles
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Post by pericles on Apr 23, 2016 21:37:44 GMT
I think the Iran-Iraq War would be avoided, while there were some disputes Saddam would be wary of attacking a stable, strong Iran that is allied with the US. Only when Iran had lost its US alliance and was going through a period of instability did he feel comfortable to attack, and even then he was probably the loser of the war, failing to achieve his goals and getting huge debts and losses. So probably Saddam would not attack Iran TTL. That would probably mean he's still in power today. With no Iraq-Iran war there will be no Iraq debt hold by Kuwait and therefore with a strong Iran next door, Iraq will not invade Kuwait in the 1st Gulf War in 1990. Yes, and the Americans probably continue to have an uneasy but positive relationship with Saddam. So no Iraq War. The Arab Spring might come to Iraq but given Saddam's brutality(or that of his sons) any uprising could well be stifled. As for Iran I think they'd be very close to the US and would have modernized/Westernized even further. Iran already had a nuclear program, and while they were doing actual nuclear power(the Shah reasoned the oil would run out so better have a backup) there were already rumors Iran was moving to get a nuclear bomb and without international sanctions and opposition to their program they may get a bomb by the 1990s or 2000s.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 23, 2016 21:45:44 GMT
With no Iraq-Iran war there will be no Iraq debt hold by Kuwait and therefore with a strong Iran next door, Iraq will not invade Kuwait in the 1st Gulf War in 1990. Yes, and the Americans probably continue to have an uneasy but positive relationship with Saddam. So no Iraq War. The Arab Spring might come to Iraq but given Saddam's brutality(or that of his sons) any uprising could well be stifled. As for Iran I think they'd be very close to the US and would have modernized/Westernized even further. Iran already had a nuclear program, and while they were doing actual nuclear power(the Shah reasoned the oil would run out so better have a backup) there were already rumors Iran was moving to get a nuclear bomb and without international sanctions and opposition to their program they may get a bomb by the 1990s or 2000s. Also i see the F-14 in Iran being replace by a F-22 variant that is co funded by Iran, this will bring the cost down for that fighter and as a result we will see the F-22 being operated by Iran, United States, Japan and Israel in the universe.
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pericles
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Post by pericles on Apr 24, 2016 4:11:47 GMT
What would be the fate of Syria TTL? Would Iran still support the assad regime or would it be toppled? How would an Iraq still run by Saddam Hussein react to the civil war there? Or would butterflies make the situation vastly different? Any ideas on what happens in Syria TTL?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 24, 2016 8:19:19 GMT
What would be the fate of Syria TTL? Would Iran still support the assad regime or would it be toppled? How would an Iraq still run by Saddam Hussein react to the civil war there? Or would butterflies make the situation vastly different? Any ideas on what happens in Syria TTL? Syria would keep closer ties with the Soviet Union and we do not now if the Arab Spring ever happens here, it could happen in some form but if it happens in Iraq, we now for sure Saddam is going to use ever force to crush it as quickly as he can as he has always done,.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 24, 2016 12:58:53 GMT
What would be the fate of Syria TTL? Would Iran still support the assad regime or would it be toppled? How would an Iraq still run by Saddam Hussein react to the civil war there? Or would butterflies make the situation vastly different? Any ideas on what happens in Syria TTL? I'm wondering, since the dominant Alawites are generally aligned with the Shias and since the two Baathist regimes in Iraq and Syria hated each other's guts whether Syria would side with Iran? This would probably mean scaling down its hostility towards Israel, although that could be reduced to a token activity and is unlikely to have any purpose other than internal consumption since Egypt has made peace with Israel. It would also mean a break with Russia as their main external supporter but possibly if say Iran arranged some compromise between the US and Syria, perhaps including a Israeli presence. This might be tempting to the west since it would isolate Iraq as the sole Soviet satellite in the region, although it would upset the Sunni states, most noticeably the Saudis and possibly Egypt. If Saddam attacked an Iran in some turmoil due to reform in the government Iran might seek and gain Syrian support possibly even to the level of some form of partition of Iraq. Although that presents problems for Iran, gaining a lot of Sunni Arabs and possibly far more so Syria gaining probably many more Sunni Arabs and Kurds. Especially if Iran is also worried at the Soviet presence in Afghanistan at the same time and feeling somewhat be-leagued.
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deltaforce
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Post by deltaforce on Mar 14, 2017 0:50:09 GMT
What if Iran never had the Islamic Revolution of 1979 and the Pahlavi dynasty remained in power? What PoD would be needed to keep the Shah and his successors in power? What would be the effects of an Iran that remains a US ally? How would this effect US politics? What would Iran be like TTL? How would this effect the Middle East? I think the Iran-Iraq War would be avoided, so Saddam Hussein might remain in power and Iran wouldn't support Hezbollah, but what would be the other effects? What if? In terms of energy the 1979 Energy Crisis is what really started the move away from petroleum and towards energy conservation. The 1973 Energy Crisis might have doubled petroleum prices, but at the time it was only seen as a fluke event. The 1979 Energy Crisis made it clear that such systemic crises were more than just fluke events and could really happen. Countries started to emphasize petroleum conservation for vehicles and began phasing it out of power generation. To some extents this started happening after 1973, but petroleum use and electricity consumption (even petroleum generated electricity) actually grew in the years between the crises. It might surprise people to learn that the United States was getting around 15% of its electricity from petroleum in the 1970s from a low starting point in the early/mid-1960s, and that it was in fact generating more power than nuclear energy at that time, but there were reasons for that. One was that petroleum was actually fairly inexpensive at the time, costing around $20 per barrel in present day dollars, and the other is that there was a period between the passage of environmental regulations and the widespread adoption of flue gas desulfurization technology in which petroleum was seen as a more environmentally friendly source of electricity generation compared to coal (presumably because sulfur can be refined out of petroleum but isn't as simple to remove from coal exhaust).
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deltaforce
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Post by deltaforce on Mar 14, 2017 1:08:04 GMT
I wonder who the US will side with more, if Iran is still a democracy after 1980, the US will have two allies who are somewhat rivals of each other. Imperial Iran was a one party state after the Shah established the Resurgence Party in 1976. That was one of many reasons why the United States began to have waning support for the Shah, especially under the more human rights centered foreign policy of President Carter. It might also have been thought that an Islamic Revolution in Iran could help to weaken the Soviet Union if the revolution spread to Central Asia. Of course it's important to point out that Iran is Shia and Central Asia is mostly Sunni, but the Soviet Union was concerned about an Islamic revolution spreading to Central Asia during the Iran-Iraq War ( source).
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