spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jun 16, 2016 23:46:16 GMT
Perhaps you could have the Germans not send Lenin to destabilize the country, or have him and his acolytes killed for whatever reason. That would at least have a democratic government under Kerensky's ilk.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 17, 2016 0:53:11 GMT
Perhaps you could have the Germans not send Lenin to destabilize the country, or have him and his acolytes killed for whatever reason. That would at least have a democratic government under Kerensky's ilk. Problem with that is that by 1917 the German military were so desperate and obsessed with winning the war, no matter the long term cost that they were willing to infect Russia with rebellion and ignore the longer term risks of it spreading. Without that notorious sealed train the Bolsheviks might not come to power. However I'm not sure that Kerensky's regime could have survived that long, even if it exited the war fairly quickly. If assorted left wing groups didn't manage to de-stablish it then the right would almost certainly try. If they continued supporting the war then unless things pick up a lot quicker than OTL I fear their a lost cause anyway. (: |
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 19, 2016 3:47:36 GMT
What if the February Revolution never happened and the Tsars remained in power? What changes would be needed to make this happen? How would history be altered? Would Nazi Germany still emerge? Would there be a different World War II and a different Cold War? How would Russia develop in this alternate history? What if? I would think that World War II is butterflied away completely (or at least WWII as we know it since the Nazis will probably remain a small none important party). Didn't the Nazis primarily get a lot of support in Germany in the early 1930s in real life due to the Great Depression, though? |
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 19, 2016 3:49:42 GMT
Presuming Russia sees at least limited reform and probably a continuation of the substantial industrial expansion then Germany is unlikely to fall to the Nazis as they will be too worried about the Russian colossus to the east. There is likely to be concern in all European powers about the 'threat' from Russia although because its not a radical communist state hostility won't be as deeply set. Why exactly would a greater fear of Russia among Germany's population have made Germany's population less likely to vote for the Nazis in the 1930s, though? |
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 19, 2016 3:50:54 GMT
If you want to strengthen the Russian state before WWI, you can have the 1905 revolution succeed in liberalizing the empire. It would increase its legitimacy among the Russian people and make the appeal of Bolshevism less potent. I think you really need to remove Nickolas II for that to happen. He was so reactionary that such a boost to reform is going to meet his fanatical opposition. Possibly if there's some accident [as an assassination is only likely to harder the stance of the reactionaries] which kills him or forces him to resign. Think his brother, was it Grand Duke Michael, was a lot more intelligent and aware of the state of the world and he would probably have been the regent for Nickolas's son. Or Michael could have outright become the Russian Tsar himself if Nicholas II would have died from typhus in 1900 as almost happened in real life. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 19, 2016 11:53:19 GMT
Presuming Russia sees at least limited reform and probably a continuation of the substantial industrial expansion then Germany is unlikely to fall to the Nazis as they will be too worried about the Russian colossus to the east. There is likely to be concern in all European powers about the 'threat' from Russia although because its not a radical communist state hostility won't be as deeply set. Why exactly would a greater fear of Russia among Germany's population have made Germany's population less likely to vote for the Nazis in the 1930s, though? Because there was a lot of fear in Germany, including in the military, that Hitler's moves OTL would lead to another massive and brutally costly war and a German defeat. [Which actually turned out to be the case but not in the way they feared and his early victories, especially over France boosting Hitler's support amongst many Germans]. If instead of a weak Poland and a rogue soviet Russia that was willing to ally with Nazi Germany there was a huge and powerful looking Russia on the eastern border German revanchment is likely to be a lot less powerful. [Also with a successful surviving Russia the territorial terms at Versailles may not be as harsh as there is less fear of a German revival without a Russia to counter it in the east]. Given how much early German successes relied on bluff its likely that something, say the partition of Czechoslovakia is likely to see either a military response by the allies or a coup inside Germany against any such deeply dangerous move. |
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 20, 2016 4:05:34 GMT
Why exactly would a greater fear of Russia among Germany's population have made Germany's population less likely to vote for the Nazis in the 1930s, though? Because there was a lot of fear in Germany, including in the military, that Hitler's moves OTL would lead to another massive and brutally costly war and a German defeat. [Which actually turned out to be the case but not in the way they feared and his early victories, especially over France boosting Hitler's support amongst many Germans]. If instead of a weak Poland and a rogue soviet Russia that was willing to ally with Nazi Germany there was a huge and powerful looking Russia on the eastern border German revanchment is likely to be a lot less powerful. [Also with a successful surviving Russia the territorial terms at Versailles may not be as harsh as there is less fear of a German revival without a Russia to counter it in the east]. Given how much early German successes relied on bluff its likely that something, say the partition of Czechoslovakia is likely to see either a military response by the allies or a coup inside Germany against any such deeply dangerous move. Couldn't a Hitler-led Germany, if it will ever come into being in this scenario, have been (much) more careful and cautious in comparison to the Hitler-led Germany which existed in real life, though? |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 21, 2016 16:29:42 GMT
futurist
It would have to be a lot more careful which I doubt would be practical with Hitler at its helm. Far more likely fear of what the allies, including Russia, might do, would make Germany a lot more cautious about electing anyone like the Nazis.
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 22, 2016 21:33:40 GMT
futurist It would have to be a lot more careful which I doubt would be practical with Hitler at its helm. Far more likely fear of what the allies, including Russia, might do, would make Germany a lot more cautious about electing anyone like the Nazis. Hitler certainly had a cautious and pragmatic streak in certain situations, though. Indeed, just take a look at this agreement to the 1939 M-R Pact. |
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Roderick3D
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Post by Roderick3D on Jun 26, 2016 10:01:56 GMT
What if the February Revolution never happened and the Tsars remained in power? What changes would be needed to make this happen? How would history be altered? Would Nazi Germany still emerge? Would there be a different World War II and a different Cold War? How would Russia develop in this alternate history? What if? will become a constitutional monarchy, changes? The Tsar end the war... Nazis will still emerge : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319(Here you can see the Socialist popularity in Weimar Republic) World War II will be different, Germany will eat all Poland, but Russia will declare war at the same time that the Allies so the war will be shorter(maybe 1943-1944)... Cold War will not happen. |
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jun 26, 2016 16:26:17 GMT
What if the February Revolution never happened and the Tsars remained in power? What changes would be needed to make this happen? How would history be altered? Would Nazi Germany still emerge? Would there be a different World War II and a different Cold War? How would Russia develop in this alternate history? What if? will become a constitutional monarchy, changes? The Tsar end the war... Nazis will still emerge : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319(Here you can see the Socialist popularity in Weimar Republic) World War II will be different, Germany will eat all Poland, but Russia will declare war at the same time that the Allies so the war will be shorter(maybe 1943-1944)... Cold War will not happen. I wouldn't be so certain of the Nazis still rising. Communism played a big part in the fears they exploited. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 26, 2016 16:55:44 GMT
Russia will become a constitutional monarchy, changes? The Tsar end the war... Nazis will still emerge : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319(Here you can see the Socialist popularity in Weimar Republic) World War II will be different, Germany will eat all Poland, but Russia will declare war at the same time that the Allies so the war will be shorter(maybe 1943-1944)... Cold War will not happen. I wouldn't be so certain of the Nazis still rising. Communism played a big part in the fears they exploited. Plus if Russia is a reasonably stable state, even if still under the Romanov's it won't be the political pariah that the Soviets were OTL. As such as well as not having the fear of commumism there is a powerful state to Germany's east that is likely to oppose its rearmament. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 26, 2016 17:05:56 GMT
I wouldn't be so certain of the Nazis still rising. Communism played a big part in the fears they exploited. Plus if Russia is a reasonably stable state, even if still under the Romanov's it won't be the political pariah that the Soviets were OTL. As such as well as not having the fear of commumism there is a powerful state to Germany's east that is likely to oppose its rearmament. My country would have diplomatic relations with a Russian Empire if there was no Russian Revolution, seems the Netherlands did not have any diplomatic relationships with the Soviet Union until the end of the Second World War |
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Roderick3D
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Post by Roderick3D on Jun 26, 2016 17:30:17 GMT
Russia will become a constitutional monarchy, changes? The Tsar end the war... Nazis will still emerge : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%9319(Here you can see the Socialist popularity in Weimar Republic) World War II will be different, Germany will eat all Poland, but Russia will declare war at the same time that the Allies so the war will be shorter(maybe 1943-1944)... Cold War will not happen. I wouldn't be so certain of the Nazis still rising. Communism played a big part in the fears they exploited. Nationalist just want her old empire, but end conquering great part of Europe... |
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spanishspy
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Post by spanishspy on Jun 26, 2016 18:17:33 GMT
I wouldn't be so certain of the Nazis still rising. Communism played a big part in the fears they exploited. Nationalist just want her old empire, but end conquering great part of Europe... Never said the nationalists were not going to start a war. |
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