pericles
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Post by pericles on Apr 4, 2016 1:36:58 GMT
What if the American Revolution had never occurred, or never successfully produced the USA? What if Britain retained full control of that part of North America? What PoD(s) would be needed to make this happen? how would this alter history? What if?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 4, 2016 3:10:03 GMT
What if the American Revolution had never occurred, or never successfully produced the USA? What if Britain retained full control of that part of North America? What PoD(s) would be needed to make this happen? how would this alter history? What if? Maybe if the British had decided to grant Dominion status to the American Colonies they would be mainly self governing and thus avoid the need to rebel against the empire.. |
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pericles
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Post by pericles on Apr 4, 2016 5:03:47 GMT
What about if the British won the actual Revolutionary War? Maybe like 'For Want of a Nail' where the British won Saratoga? Of course america could and probably would become a dominion sometime afterwards. Would the French revolution be butterflied away?
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Post by Morty Vicar on Apr 4, 2016 8:51:08 GMT
I can't cite this but I did hear that the British could potentially have crushed the ARW if they hadn't underestimated the rebels. Another factor was the fact that a lot of the British establishment actually sympathised with the rebels, so the British arguably didn't send the full force they could have and go all out to crush the rebellion. And they won the war of 1812, so arguably they could have reclaimed the colonies. At the time the colonies were basically just agrarian, and there weren't many natural resources to be tapped that they knew of. Perhaps if you have an earlier gold rush it could change things, but then it was the British that tried to prevent the settlers from going west.
If it had gone down like that the US would mainly be confined to the 13 colonies, and maybe the purchase of Alaska. Therefore probably the rest of the US would be mainly Spanish with some French regions, maybe some Anglo/ German/ Irish migrants in those regions. The States would be unlikely to have colonial ambitions of their own, so probably no Puerto Rico, Phillipines, Liberia etc. Another interesting outcome is that the British wanted to stop encroachment into native American territories, so there would likely still be native American nations in North America. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2016 9:10:16 GMT
What about if the British won the actual Revolutionary War? Maybe like 'For Want of a Nail' where the British won Saratoga? Of course america could and probably would become a dominion sometime afterwards. Would the French revolution be butterflied away? It could still happen, and with a British North America joining the British in their fight against the French it would become interesting. |
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pericles
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Post by pericles on Apr 9, 2016 20:41:13 GMT
Would the French Revolution still occur? The American Revolution was an important cause; inspiring French that authroity could be defeated and freedom could happen and increasing the French Crown's woes by adding on debt.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 9, 2016 21:19:34 GMT
Would the French Revolution still occur? The American Revolution was an important cause; inspiring French that authroity could be defeated and freedom could happen and increasing the French Crown's woes by adding on debt. The King and queen where not beloved by their people, even with no American Revolution, a French Revolution will happen, not maybe in the same year but it will happen. |
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Post by turteltaube on Jun 3, 2016 17:24:19 GMT
What if the American Revolution had never occurred, or never successfully produced the USA? What if Britain retained full control of that part of North America? What PoD(s) would be needed to make this happen? how would this alter history? What if? 1.) after the Seven Years War Britain lets the French keep Canada. With a French/Catholic threat to the north the colonials would have stayed loyal no matter what. 2.) Britain keeps Canada but doesn't redraw redraw its boundaries to include most of the Northwest Territories. This was a yuuuge source of resentment. 3.) Britain lets the colonials collect taxes. Britain needed money after the 7YW, fine. But the way they did it was self-defeating -- the Stamp Act landed on lawyers, publishers, journalists, i.e., leaders of public opinion. It's not smart to piss off the 1%. They might have done better to assess each colony and leave it up to their legislature how to collect it. There would still be much wailing and gnashing of teeth but no redcoats kicking in doors or quartered in private homes. If Britain had retained the colonies, Native Americans would have fared much better though I don't know how slavery would have played out. Also, British America would only extend to the Mississippi -- no Louisiana Purchase, no war robbery of Mexico. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 3, 2016 17:35:23 GMT
If Britain had retained the colonies, Native Americans would have fared much better though I don't know how slavery would have played out. Also, British America would only extend to the Mississippi -- no Louisiana Purchase, no war robbery of Mexico. I would think with out a American Revolution the British and French will go to war with each other, they always find a way to go to war with each other. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 4, 2016 10:54:16 GMT
Guys
Surprised I missed this before. Think its perfectly possible to have the rebellion defeated or possibly avoided altogether.
As turteltaube says upsetting the powerful and influential was a big mistake. Not sure we could have relied on the individual colonies to collect taxes given the level of corruption, which I think was even higher than in Britain at the time. Plus what if a number of them either refuse to pay or simply claim they have run into problems and can't afford their share?
Siilarly, possibkly keeping Guadalope instead of Canada would have helped keep especially the northern colonies quieter but it would have meant resentment at losing war-time gains, especially since the French would probably keep what became the 'old NW' territrories which would restrict expansion into that area. Unless/until a later war sees the region fall into British hands in which case we have the OTL problem delayed a generation or so.
Technically Britain won in 1812-14 by preventing the conquest of Canada, although the independent buffer state in the NW region was crushed. However, other than possibly much of the Maine area, or parts of the NW prior to Tecumseh defeat, I don't think there was any intent to annex any territory that the US claimed and definitely not the settled states.
If the colonies remain part of the empire it might mitigate the treatment of the natives and expansion somewhat, especially while London was paying most/all of the bills. As with other colonies later if was often local settlers and such groups that argued for expansion while the government in London was often less willing to incure the costs of such campaigns and the charges of governing any conquests afterwards. [Not saying there was no central support for imperial expansion, as it was influential in a number of periods but that the central government was often dragged into such campaigns by settler groups]. Expect this would also occur with a BNA [British North America] that includes the colonies, especilly given the sizeable population already settled there, the land greed, compounded by the demands of slave plantations and the relative weakness of the Indians. Also even if no rebellion in America occurs some future war with France and Spain is almost certainly inevitable so I could see, at a minimum, BNA gaining most of the lands the US took OTL. Hopefully treatment of the Indians would be somewhat better, especially in the 'civilised' tribes but couldn't rely on it.
The best bet for them would probably be where the rebellion occurs and leads to a more balanced partition of the colonies, with more staying British. Say if they don't give up southern Canada in 1783 [what becomes the 'old NW' and/or possibly Georgia and areas to the wesr become a refuge for southern loyalists. This leaves a powerful but probably poorly organised US and weaker British colonies supported in times of crisis by Britain. Both sides but especially the latter would have an interest in allying with the Indians and hence reason to support them.
Steve
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