Post by raharris1973 on Oct 9, 2024 14:13:39 GMT
What if the Third Northern (Chinese) Domination of Vietnam was perpetual?
Or,
Dai Viet is dead. Long live Jiaozhu Province!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Era_of_Northern_Domination#:~:text=This%20period%20saw%20three%20Chinese,again%20from%20705%20to%20880.
Historically, the Third Era of Domination was coterminous with the Sui and Tang Dynasties, and Vietnam's breaking away was a coincident event with the crack-up of the Tang imperium. When the northern Song put China back together again, they neglected to or were unable to add Vietnam back in, although they reconsolidated everything else except the Tang far west and far north.
So, the PoD would be that in their general consolidation of the southern provinces, which the Song were quite capable of in the mid-900s AD, they restore the lapsed Chinese control over Vietnam Jiaozhu province.
As a prosperous, navally strong realm, that stayed strongest for longest in southeastern China, they should hold on to Jiaozhu to the dying breath of the dynasty, with the Mongol Yuan taking it over. Indeed the conquest process should probably increase Han acculturation through additional time with Han rule, education and institutions, but more Han refugee migration south from devastating Jin and Mongol wars.
When the Han, under the Turban revolts and Ming, overthrow the Mongols, Vietnam should be part of the newly liberated Chinese state as the province of Jiaozhu. The Viet/Yue-ish local languages and customs may well be distinct aspects just like Zhuang and Yue and Miao minorities in southwest and southeast China are distinctive today, but not to the point of making separate Kingdom-ship or Empire-hood inevitable.
Jiaozhu could later share in the Ming fate of being conquered by the Manchu Qing.
If this were the case, what would the likely southward and westward borders of this Jiaozhu province be? Would they remain fixed at basically North Vietnam 1954-1975, which they were in the years 1000-1400, with Champa and the Khmer occupying latter day South Vietnam territory? Or would, even as a Chinese province of Jiaozhou, the province expand southward to supplant Champa and even the Khmers of the Mekong Delta to reach the Saigon region and Ca Mau peninsula, as the Viet expansion of OTL did?
Or,
Dai Viet is dead. Long live Jiaozhu Province!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Era_of_Northern_Domination#:~:text=This%20period%20saw%20three%20Chinese,again%20from%20705%20to%20880.
Historically, the Third Era of Domination was coterminous with the Sui and Tang Dynasties, and Vietnam's breaking away was a coincident event with the crack-up of the Tang imperium. When the northern Song put China back together again, they neglected to or were unable to add Vietnam back in, although they reconsolidated everything else except the Tang far west and far north.
So, the PoD would be that in their general consolidation of the southern provinces, which the Song were quite capable of in the mid-900s AD, they restore the lapsed Chinese control over Vietnam Jiaozhu province.
As a prosperous, navally strong realm, that stayed strongest for longest in southeastern China, they should hold on to Jiaozhu to the dying breath of the dynasty, with the Mongol Yuan taking it over. Indeed the conquest process should probably increase Han acculturation through additional time with Han rule, education and institutions, but more Han refugee migration south from devastating Jin and Mongol wars.
When the Han, under the Turban revolts and Ming, overthrow the Mongols, Vietnam should be part of the newly liberated Chinese state as the province of Jiaozhu. The Viet/Yue-ish local languages and customs may well be distinct aspects just like Zhuang and Yue and Miao minorities in southwest and southeast China are distinctive today, but not to the point of making separate Kingdom-ship or Empire-hood inevitable.
Jiaozhu could later share in the Ming fate of being conquered by the Manchu Qing.
If this were the case, what would the likely southward and westward borders of this Jiaozhu province be? Would they remain fixed at basically North Vietnam 1954-1975, which they were in the years 1000-1400, with Champa and the Khmer occupying latter day South Vietnam territory? Or would, even as a Chinese province of Jiaozhou, the province expand southward to supplant Champa and even the Khmers of the Mekong Delta to reach the Saigon region and Ca Mau peninsula, as the Viet expansion of OTL did?