|
|
Post by Max Sinister on Aug 24, 2024 0:14:55 GMT
Quite some time ago when I re-read Anne Frank's diary, I found that she too had had some interest in our hobby, so to speak. Or something that looks like it at least. She thought about who'd make a good match for the British princesses, to be precise. Today I thought about that topic again, when I wrote about an alternate Yuri Andropov. See, IOTL he divorced his first wife whom he had left in Yaroslavl in summer 1941, because in Petrosavodsk, he had met his second wife (to be), Tatyana. Now my TL has a PoD in May 1940 - would it still happen here? Since I decided he'd still go to Karelia (he did in June 1940 IOTL) where he'd get his post as a Komsomol functionary: It was not a huge city, just about 100,000 inhabitants. In the SU, the CPSU wasn't too big yet - in 1938, because of the purges, it had fallen to 1.8 million members. About 1% of the population. Makes 1,000 in Petrosavodsk - a village, so to speak. So the number of girls in his age group (she was born in 1917 - I'd say that the birth rates would have been low too) who are party members AND not in a relationship would be rather low, even if you ignore other factors. Vice versa, this applies even more so: Few young men of the age she prefers would be students and important functionaries, as he was. So they still marry in "How many Sixes". Only difference: In summer 1941, they don't become parents of son Igor in August, but of daughter Irina in July.
I don't really want to spend too much on this, as it makes me feel like a journo who has to write about the WAGs of football players, but if you think about a surviving Nazi Reich, I expect that the kids of the nazi bigwigs (Bormann, Speer, Sauckel, Ribbentrop, Heydrich, etc.) will find their partners in their social circles too. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832 
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Aug 24, 2024 10:50:22 GMT
Quite some time ago when I re-read Anne Frank's diary, I found that she too had had some interest in our hobby, so to speak. Or something that looks like it at least. She thought about who'd make a good match for the British princesses, to be precise. Today I thought about that topic again, when I wrote about an alternate Yuri Andropov. See, IOTL he divorced his first wife whom he had left in Yaroslavl in summer 1941, because in Petrosavodsk, he had met his second wife (to be) Tatyana. Now my TL has a PoD in May 1940 - would it still happen here? Since I decided he'd still go to Karelia (he did in June 1940 IOTL) where he'd get his post as a Komsomol functionary: It was not a huge city, just about 100,000 inhabitants. In the SU, the CPSU wasn't too big yet - in 1938, because of the purges, it had fallen to 1.8 million members. About 1% of the population. So the number of girls in his age group (she was born in 1917 - I'd say that the birth rates would have been low too) who are party members would be rather low, even if you ignore other factors. Vice versa, this applies even more so: Few young men of the age she prefers would be students and important functionaries, as he was. So they still marry in "How many Sixes". Only difference: In summer 1941, they don't become parents of son Igor in August, but of daughter Irina in July.
I don't really want to spend too much on this, as it makes me feel like a journo who has to write about the WAGs of football players, but if you think about a surviving Nazi Reich, I expect that the kids of the nazi bigwigs (Bormann, Speer, Sauckel, Ribbentrop, Heydrich, etc.) will find their partners in their social circles too.
Well one aspect of that last point is that the Goebbels won't be sacrificing their daughters here so they will live. Not sure whether Heydrich might still get assassinated, or some other prominent Nazi in his place in Bohemia.
Good line of thought on Andropov. Although does the Karelia region see more fighting and more German-Finnish success in How many Sixes as either he or she could get injured or killed which would butterfly the relationship. Also would Stalin after such a dramatic defeat have another purge which might affect the party members? - He would be really stupid to cripple the army again but the party might seem a more likely target of his rage. - Not sure if Karelia stays under Soviet control or not in TTL?
PS Out of interest who was Anne thinking of for possible royal partners for the Windsor princesses?
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,365
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 24, 2024 10:57:49 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Max Sinister on Aug 24, 2024 21:01:45 GMT
Quite some time ago when I re-read Anne Frank's diary, I found that she too had had some interest in our hobby, so to speak. Or something that looks like it at least. She thought about who'd make a good match for the British princesses, to be precise. Today I thought about that topic again, when I wrote about an alternate Yuri Andropov. See, IOTL he divorced his first wife whom he had left in Yaroslavl in summer 1941, because in Petrosavodsk, he had met his second wife (to be) Tatyana. Now my TL has a PoD in May 1940 - would it still happen here? Since I decided he'd still go to Karelia (he did in June 1940 IOTL) where he'd get his post as a Komsomol functionary: It was not a huge city, just about 100,000 inhabitants. In the SU, the CPSU wasn't too big yet - in 1938, because of the purges, it had fallen to 1.8 million members. About 1% of the population. So the number of girls in his age group (she was born in 1917 - I'd say that the birth rates would have been low too) who are party members would be rather low, even if you ignore other factors. Vice versa, this applies even more so: Few young men of the age she prefers would be students and important functionaries, as he was. So they still marry in "How many Sixes". Only difference: In summer 1941, they don't become parents of son Igor in August, but of daughter Irina in July.
I don't really want to spend too much on this, as it makes me feel like a journo who has to write about the WAGs of football players, but if you think about a surviving Nazi Reich, I expect that the kids of the nazi bigwigs (Bormann, Speer, Sauckel, Ribbentrop, Heydrich, etc.) will find their partners in their social circles too.
Well one aspect of that last point is that the Goebbels won't be sacrificing their daughters here so they will live. Not sure whether Heydrich might still get assassinated, or some other prominent Nazi in his place in Bohemia.
Good line of thought on Andropov. Although does the Karelia region see more fighting and more German-Finnish success in How many Sixes as either he or she could get injured or killed which would butterfly the relationship. Also would Stalin after such a dramatic defeat have another purge which might affect the party members? - He would be really stupid to cripple the army again but the party might seem a more likely target of his rage. - Not sure if Karelia stays under Soviet control or not in TTL?
PS Out of interest who was Anne thinking of for possible royal partners for the Windsor princesses?
As stated: Andropov will die in October 1941 during the fights around Byelomorsk. haven't decided what will happen to his second wife and daughter. His first wife is in Yaroslavl, hence safe. The Second peace of Brest-Litovsk will hand over Karelia and Kola to Finland (although the "Reich", represented by Terboven, will have much covert influence in Kola, incl, using Murmansk) - but Soviets will claim (at least in their country) that they just ceded the areas acquired in 1940, and the rest was just "under Finnish occupation". Which reminds of those West German post-war maps which still insisted that Pomerania, Silesia, and East Prussia were just "under Polish/Soviet administration".
Googling Anne, I found this quote:
"On April 21, 1944, less than four months before her arrest, 14-year-old Anne wrote in her diary:
'Today is the eighteenth birthday of Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth of York. The BBC reported that she hasn’t yet been declared of age, though royal children usually are. We’ve been wondering which prince they’ll marry this beauty off to, but can’t think of a suitable candidate; perhaps her sister, Princess Margaret Rose, can have Crown Prince Baudouin of Belgium!'"
So that was it. My memory was a bit vague, but I had guessed Baudouin was involved. I had wondered when I read the quote whether him being a Catholic wouldn't be a problem.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,365
|
Post by lordroel on Aug 24, 2024 21:23:29 GMT
So that was it. My memory was a bit vague, but I had guessed Baudouin was involved. I had wondered when I read the quote whether him being a Catholic wouldn't be a problem. I assume she did not know, Baudouin and Margaret are related by blood, they are third cousin of each other, but i doubt that matters much as royals related by blood marry each other more than once. |
|
|
|
Post by Max Sinister on Aug 24, 2024 21:37:34 GMT
So that was it. My memory was a bit vague, but I had guessed Baudouin was involved. I had wondered when I read the quote whether him being a Catholic wouldn't be a problem. I assume she did not know, Baudouin and Margaret are related by blood, they are third cousin of each other, but i doubt that matters much as royals related by blood marry each other more than once. Yeah, royals often do that. But having a common great-great-grandfather (Christian IX of Denmark) really shouldn't matter.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Aug 25, 2024 9:04:48 GMT
Well one aspect of that last point is that the Goebbels won't be sacrificing their daughters here so they will live. Not sure whether Heydrich might still get assassinated, or some other prominent Nazi in his place in Bohemia.
Good line of thought on Andropov. Although does the Karelia region see more fighting and more German-Finnish success in How many Sixes as either he or she could get injured or killed which would butterfly the relationship. Also would Stalin after such a dramatic defeat have another purge which might affect the party members? - He would be really stupid to cripple the army again but the party might seem a more likely target of his rage. - Not sure if Karelia stays under Soviet control or not in TTL?
PS Out of interest who was Anne thinking of for possible royal partners for the Windsor princesses?
As stated: Andropov will die in October 1941 during the fights around Byelomorsk. haven't decided what will happen to his second wife and daughter. His first wife is in Yaroslavl, hence safe. The Second peace of Brest-Litovsk will hand over Karelia and Kola to Finland (although the "Reich", represented by Terboven, will have much covert influence in Kola, incl, using Murmansk) - but Soviets will claim (at least in their country) that they just ceded the areas acquired in 1940, and the rest was just "under Finnish occupation". Which reminds of those West German post-war maps which still insisted that Pomerania, Silesia, and East Prussia were just "under Polish/Soviet administration".
Googling Anne, I found this quote:
"On April 21, 1944, less than four months before her arrest, 14-year-old Anne wrote in her diary:
'Today is the eighteenth birthday of Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth of York. The BBC reported that she hasn’t yet been declared of age, though royal children usually are. We’ve been wondering which prince they’ll marry this beauty off to, but can’t think of a suitable candidate; perhaps her sister, Princess Margaret Rose, can have Crown Prince Baudouin of Belgium!'"
So that was it. My memory was a bit vague, but I had guessed Baudouin was involved. I had wondered when I read the quote whether him being a Catholic wouldn't be a problem.
The blood link wouldn't be a problem but religion would be an issue, coupled with his title, being crown prince of Belgium.
Due to problems from the reformation, culminating in James II's attempts to restore Catholicism the monarch can't be a Catholic, nor I suspect would be married to one. Definitely any child being brought up as a Catholic would be automatically excluded from the succession, at least unless the law was changed.
This wasn't an issue OTL with Philip as he was a relatively minor member of the Greek royal family and was willing to convert. However as heir to the Belgium throne it would be expected that he would at some date become king there. However I doubt someone who wanted to be king of Belgium would be willing to convert from Catholicism to Anglican Christianity. It might be that some compromise might exist but not sure what it would be.
There might also be an issue of title. Assuming he stays the heir and ultimately the king of Belgium - even if only in exile - he might not be king of Britain. When Victoria married Albert he was given the title of prince consort and similarly with Elizabeth and Philip as he was given the title Duke of Edinburgh. I think the British government would insist that Elizabeth would be head of state so he might be king in Belgium and Prince Consort in Britain.
It would be a moot point in your TL as with Belgium under German control I doubt if he would be considered for Liz and neither would the Germans be happy with a man with a claim to the Belgium crown being high in the British royal family. However when Ann was writing, although D Day hadn't yet occurred I think it was fairly clear the Nazis were going down and she would definitely be desiring that for obvious reasons.
On Andropov I had obviously misread your post before as hadn't realised he was to die in the war. Which even apart from the radically different nature of the war and the USSR's condition after it would definitely exclude him from any significant role in future events.
|
|
