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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jul 21, 2024 17:59:00 GMT
A monotheistic society in the early Bronze Age!
Some initial thoughts:
1. The Israelites do possess several technological advantages over the neighboring societies - namely iron, horses and writing. All of these are going to spread all around Europe and Asia, accelerating technological developments.
2. The Roman garrison in Judea is small - perhaps a few thousand soldiers. There are very few (if any) Roman women in the area so the soldiers and traders are going to be assimilated into the Israelite society pretty fast.
3. The Israelites/Jews are going to notice changes in the societies around them and will see it as something that can be solely an act of God. Expect a temporary increase in piety levels.
It might be interesting to ponder upon several questions:
4. The life of Jesus. He is aged 14-16 by the time of the ISOT. How does his life go from that moment? Does he still become a preacher? Is he still crucified?
5. The wider fate of religion in the region and the world - the idea of monotheism is surely going to spread via both conquest and trade/migration. The questiin is - how far is it going to spread?
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Post by raharris1973 on Jul 21, 2024 21:20:49 GMT
This is getting repetitive. Yet still I engage. So are we Old Kingdom or Middle Kingdom Egypt? Is Sumer still the thing in Mesopotamia, or are we at Hammurabi's Akkadians yet? Indus Valley Civ happening? pre-Minoan Crete right? And in Judaea, is Herod still puppet King, rather than a direct Roman Governor/Procurator, whatever? 1. The Israelites do possess several technological advantages over the neighboring societies - namely iron, horses and writing. All of these are going to spread all around Europe and Asia, accelerating technological developments. Naturally, yes. It is a small enough and rural enough section of the Mediterranean world though that many arts and sciences of its time will be lost, but certainly writing in alphabetic forms will arrive and be there to stay, ironmongery, and horse breeding/riding. 2. The Roman garrison in Judea is small - perhaps a few thousand soldiers. There are very few (if any) Roman women in the area so the soldiers and traders are going to be assimilated into the Israelite society pretty fast. Yes, and Israelite/Judean society is Hellenized to a certain extent, so alphabetic and linguistic traditions stronger than Latin would be Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. 3. The Israelites/Jews are going to notice changes in the societies around them and will see it as something that can be solely an act of God. Expect a temporary increase in piety levels. Yes, makes sense to me 4. The life of Jesus. He is aged 14-16 by the time of the ISOT. How does his life go from that moment? Does he still become a preacher? Is he still crucified? Executive powers, police and military powers, crime and punishment may go pretty thoroughly "native" by the time of his ministry, so crucifiction is unlikely to be in the punishment list if the civil-religious authorities convict him of a capital crime. He may be more likely stoned. 5. The wider fate of religion in the region and the world - the idea of monotheism is surely going to spread via both conquest and trade/migration. The questiin is - how far is it going to spread? Despite the idea being there and introduced, and Near East world getting tech upgrades, the far-flung spread of the idea, even its assured survival through the vissicitudes of history, and different groups copy and learn and apply Judean technology, is not guaranteed. Something like the spread of universal religions requires something like the level of early Roman Empire levels of urbanization, commerce, economic specialization, and known-world trade to transmit it and bearers of the belief far and wide before conquest and breakdown. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jul 21, 2024 23:35:55 GMT
raharris1973This is my last thread for a while. I won't be posting much in the ASB subforum for a foreseeable future until I get some good ideas.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jul 21, 2024 23:45:28 GMT
One thing I forgot about is diseases.
The Israelites (and Roman soldiers) are carrying diseases that people of 3000 BC are not immune against.
Expect a lot of dying, perhaps on both sides, but I guess more among the downtimerd.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2024 0:06:55 GMT
This is getting repetitive. Yet still I engage. So are we Old Kingdom or Middle Kingdom Egypt? Is Sumer still the thing in Mesopotamia, or are we at Hammurabi's Akkadians yet? Indus Valley Civ happening? pre-Minoan Crete right? And in Judaea, is Herod still puppet King, rather than a direct Roman Governor/Procurator, whatever? 1. The Israelites do possess several technological advantages over the neighboring societies - namely iron, horses and writing. All of these are going to spread all around Europe and Asia, accelerating technological developments. Naturally, yes. It is a small enough and rural enough section of the Mediterranean world though that many arts and sciences of its time will be lost, but certainly writing in alphabetic forms will arrive and be there to stay, ironmongery, and horse breeding/riding. 2. The Roman garrison in Judea is small - perhaps a few thousand soldiers. There are very few (if any) Roman women in the area so the soldiers and traders are going to be assimilated into the Israelite society pretty fast. Yes, and Israelite/Judean society is Hellenized to a certain extent, so alphabetic and linguistic traditions stronger than Latin would be Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. 3. The Israelites/Jews are going to notice changes in the societies around them and will see it as something that can be solely an act of God. Expect a temporary increase in piety levels. Yes, makes sense to me 4. The life of Jesus. He is aged 14-16 by the time of the ISOT. How does his life go from that moment? Does he still become a preacher? Is he still crucified? Executive powers, police and military powers, crime and punishment may go pretty thoroughly "native" by the time of his ministry, so crucifiction is unlikely to be in the punishment list if the civil-religious authorities convict him of a capital crime. He may be more likely stoned. 5. The wider fate of religion in the region and the world - the idea of monotheism is surely going to spread via both conquest and trade/migration. The questiin is - how far is it going to spread? Despite the idea being there and introduced, and Near East world getting tech upgrades, the far-flung spread of the idea, even its assured survival through the vissicitudes of history, and different groups copy and learn and apply Judean technology, is not guaranteed. Something like the spread of universal religions requires something like the level of early Roman Empire levels of urbanization, commerce, economic specialization, and known-world trade to transmit it and bearers of the belief far and wide before conquest and breakdown.
On that last point I would agree. Also you might need something like the Roman empire to give a concept of a universal state to make the idea of an overwhelming all powerful god like more sensible.
Would also agree with the status of Jesus. Plus, unless you assume he's actually the son of god sent with a mission, in which case he's going to be very confused, his life is going to be drastically changed as would everybody in the affected area.
This is what wiki says about 3000BC. Early-mid bronze age with Old Kingdom Egypt and Sumer still being about and also the Indus culture but probably not a lot else. |
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