|
Post by lukedalton on Sept 14, 2024 23:23:03 GMT
Well, first no October Revolution change a lot the war maybe the american delegation is succesfull in convince the Russian (and the rest of the allies) that the Russian army is not ready for an offensive at the moment so the kerensky offensive is delayed and with some more organization, time to prepare things can go better or frankly if the train with Lenin had an incident and everybody dies things will be much better for Russia in the long term. In any case the continue partecipation of Russia in the war mean that the CP can't really deploy troops in the west and Caporetto can be butterflyied away...at least as that level of disaster,
More importantly no communism and fascism lose a lot of appeal as a bastion against the ungodly red horde and no succesfull revolution mean that the more radical part of the socialist will not be empowered by the Moscow support that at the time was extremely important as the only revolutionary government in existence.
Russia at Versailles is in trouble, sure it want compensation but on the other side is weak, debt ridden and a lot of nationalities want out meaning that Woodrow Wilson will feel the need to make the decision for them as he know better, basically Russia is a bigger Italy so i expect that he will mess with everything
|
|
ewellholmes
Petty Officer 1st Class
Posts: 82
Likes: 67
|
Post by ewellholmes on Sept 14, 2024 23:42:35 GMT
Maybe, but probably not in the way you're thinking. B-L didn't lead to much in the way of German material gains and tied down a significant amount of forces; garrisoning Ukraine alone cost the Germans roughly 20 divisions for example. Where it will make the difference is that the influx of forces from the East after the start of the Spring Offensive won't be there, which could lead to the cancellation of further offensives after Georgette. In June-July there was talk of pulling back to Hindenburg Line and starting peace talks; it's likely to happen here. What the terms look like, is hard to say. Russian Poland was on the way out by 1917, however, and definitely would be in 1918 given the PG had already endorsed self-determination. During the Sixtus Affair in 1917, the Austro-Hungarians had suggested they would be willing to surrender Galicia to a revived Poland; perhaps Congress Poland is paired with such to create a Pro-Entente buffer between the two Central Powers and Russia.
Garrisoning even a smaller occupation zone in the east will probably require even more men here because instead of a prostrate Bolshevik state quickly collapsing into civil war they face a still potentially powerful Russian state. Plus now the Germans will have to decide whether they will actually go through with their promises to the Poles. They will get less than they took from the east OTL but then they didn't control it long enough to get as much as they wanted OTL.
That's precisely the point, given the Germans were unable to start moving significant forces until after the start of the Spring Offensive IOTL. Here, instead of needing to garrison conquests they will be needed to maintain the front against a still active Russia and thus transfers can't start at all. This, as I said, will lead to a truncated Kaiserschlacht simply because the additional formations aren't there for later attacks like the Second Battle of the Marne. In some ways, this is a boon for the Germans, given they will be less exhausted by continuous offensives from March until July and less over-extended too. If the Germans pull back to the Hindenburg Line, all the better given the extensive fortifications and better logistics of that position. As far as Poland, I'm assuming a neutral Poland since Russia had already tacitly conceded such in 1917 and Bethmann-Holweg was also open to this. Holger Afflerbach's On a Knife Edge explains that time thusly:
|
|
|
Post by Max Sinister on Sept 15, 2024 0:38:55 GMT
Sorry, I can't imagine that the Germans will do better on the western front ITTL.
|
|
ewellholmes
Petty Officer 1st Class
Posts: 82
Likes: 67
|
Post by ewellholmes on Sept 15, 2024 2:49:20 GMT
Maybe, but probably not in the way you're thinking. B-L didn't lead to much in the way of German material gains and tied down a significant amount of forces; garrisoning Ukraine alone cost the Germans roughly 20 divisions for example. Where it will make the difference is that the influx of forces from the East after the start of the Spring Offensive won't be there, which could lead to the cancellation of further offensives after Georgette. In June-July there was talk of pulling back to Hindenburg Line and starting peace talks; it's likely to happen here. That sounds like the Germans might get a better peace ITTL. Or that things might run smoother, speaking about their political system. ITTL it was chaotic: Some suggested that the kaiser should abdicate in favor of his son, some even suggested he should ride out to die valiantly in battle (not the worst suggestion!).
Indeed, the situation is far better since the Army has not been defeated in the field and there is no Revolution on the homefront undercutting German negotiators. Equally important, none of her allies have yet to be defeated and knocked out either; the Central Powers can present a united front not undercut by their political collapse after Salonika and Vittoro Veneto from September, 1918 onward. If they undertake the option to pull back to the Hindenburg Line in June without launching the Second Battle of Marne beforehand either, all the better; a critical factor in the Hundred Days were the Germans being over-extended and exhausted before their fortification lines. Here, they are rested and in well defended positions. For the Allies to advance would be a far costlier fair, so the chances of a better peace are possible. On the other hand, perhaps peace comes sooner than I've suggested. In the Winter of 1916-1917 there were peace overtures and again in Late 1917 into 1918. Douglas Haig was in favor of a deal and directly told Whitehall he thought the morale of the BEF was sufficient they would continue to fight on the basis of preserving French and Belgian territorial integrity, but beyond that he was doubtful of their resolve to continue to endure the losses required for an expansive peace deal. Colonel House also recommended Wilson extend a peace offer on the basis of status quo too. On the German end, Afflerbach describes it thusly by late 1917: If Wilson had been moved to follow House's suggestion of a status quo peace, with a referendum on Alsace-Lorraine, it's very possible the war could've ended in late 1917.
|
|
ewellholmes
Petty Officer 1st Class
Posts: 82
Likes: 67
|
Post by ewellholmes on Sept 15, 2024 2:50:31 GMT
Sorry, I can't imagine that the Germans will do better on the western front ITTL. The Germans launch fewer offensives and pull back to the Hindenburg Line sooner (and thus surrendering their gains made in the offensive too) is what I'm saying? I suggested this would be a benefit in the sense their forces are less exhausted and over-extended, and they would be able to meet future Entente offensives via the prepared defenses of the Hindenburg Line, but they're not more successful in their offensives; actually, the complete opposite in fact.
|
|
|
Post by lukedalton on Sept 15, 2024 4:37:14 GMT
Sorry, I can't imagine that the Germans will do better on the western front ITTL. The Germans launch fewer offensives and pull back to the Hindenburg Line sooner (and thus surrendering their gains made in the offensive too) is what I'm saying? I suggested this would be a benefit in the sense their forces are less exhausted and over-extended, and they would be able to meet future Entente offensives via the prepared defenses of the Hindenburg Line, but they're not more successful in their offensives; actually, the complete opposite in fact. Irrilevant if the German stay on the defensive, the blockade is basically killing them they can't survive another turnip winter without their revolution starting and Austria-Hungary will not last even till then
|
|
ewellholmes
Petty Officer 1st Class
Posts: 82
Likes: 67
|
Post by ewellholmes on Sept 15, 2024 4:59:40 GMT
The Germans launch fewer offensives and pull back to the Hindenburg Line sooner (and thus surrendering their gains made in the offensive too) is what I'm saying? I suggested this would be a benefit in the sense their forces are less exhausted and over-extended, and they would be able to meet future Entente offensives via the prepared defenses of the Hindenburg Line, but they're not more successful in their offensives; actually, the complete opposite in fact. Irrilevant if the German stay on the defensive, the blockade is basically killing them they can't survive another turnip winter without their revolution starting and Austria-Hungary will not last even till then With the benefit of hindsight yes, but if they're suing for peace in June of 1918 it's not a factor; Entente planning at that point assumed the war would last into 1919. I'm not suggesting they win, but that they could achieve a much better peace deal given their situation is much better than it was historically by November, 1918.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,896
Likes: 13,274
|
Post by stevep on Sept 15, 2024 16:07:04 GMT
Sorry, I can't imagine that the Germans will do better on the western front ITTL.
I think his argument is not that they do better but that they don't make the massive mistakes of exhausting their forces so badly and extending their lines. I think this unlikely however because of both the win at all costs mentality of the German military and the fact that albeit slowly the Americans are starting to arrive in numbers and by late spring 1918 are actually entering front line service in numbers. If they can't win a decisive victory quickly - and they can't, especially in their weakened state - then they can't win at all and both sides know this. Once Wilson is committed in spring 1917 he will want a victory as his argument for going for war and by this time the western allies are also determined that Germany must be weakened considerably so they no longer pose a continued threat. This might be moderated by the continued existence of a friendly Russia to the east as that reduces the German potential as a future threat but a lot would depend on events.
Plus with Russia not having fallen to Lenin's coup and hence being in a markedly better state then whether there's been any sort of peace or simply some sort of cease-fire truce Germany needs to consider a potentially rebuilt Russia as a threat to their eastern borders. Coupled with the continued collapse of their allies, which will still occur in this scenario the Germans need to win quickly so I can't see L&H not going full out for victory in the west while they think its a possibility.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,896
Likes: 13,274
|
Post by stevep on Sept 15, 2024 16:18:58 GMT
Well, first no October Revolution change a lot the war maybe the american delegation is succesfull in convince the Russian (and the rest of the allies) that the Russian army is not ready for an offensive at the moment so the kerensky offensive is delayed and with some more organization, time to prepare things can go better or frankly if the train with Lenin had an incident and everybody dies things will be much better for Russia in the long term. In any case the continue partecipation of Russia in the war mean that the CP can't really deploy troops in the west and Caporetto can be butterflyied away...at least as that level of disaster, More importantly no communism and fascism lose a lot of appeal as a bastion against the ungodly red horde and no succesfull revolution mean that the more radical part of the socialist will not be empowered by the Moscow support that at the time was extremely important as the only revolutionary government in existence. Russia at Versailles is in trouble, sure it want compensation but on the other side is weak, debt ridden and a lot of nationalities want out meaning that Woodrow Wilson will feel the need to make the decision for them as he know better, basically Russia is a bigger Italy so i expect that he will mess with everything
A lot will depend on what's happened in Russia and in relations with the western allies but its position is definitely better than OTL. Assuming there's not been any right wing coup leading to a civil war its going to at least get back its Slavic/Orthodox territories and if Germany has tried to establish German monarchs in the Baltic's or Finland could undermine the argument for independence for them. Also their likely to seek and get support for a significantly larger than OTL Armenia as compensation for that people's horrendous suffering and that is going to look toward Russia for support and protection. Poland is likely to be a different matter, especially with the collapse of the Hapsburg empire.
Its going to have economic problems as well as social fragility and disorder but its also going to have access to trade with the rest of the world and quite possibly some investment, especially from the US.
Also given how much Wilson tried to dictate to everybody this could back-fire as with a friendly and reasonably stable Russia, which has also suffered badly from German attacks it could be that American aid isn't seen as worth the costs, especially if as OTL the US refuses any defensive alliance.
|
|
|
Post by lukedalton on Sept 15, 2024 23:58:01 GMT
Well, first no October Revolution change a lot the war maybe the american delegation is succesfull in convince the Russian (and the rest of the allies) that the Russian army is not ready for an offensive at the moment so the kerensky offensive is delayed and with some more organization, time to prepare things can go better or frankly if the train with Lenin had an incident and everybody dies things will be much better for Russia in the long term. In any case the continue partecipation of Russia in the war mean that the CP can't really deploy troops in the west and Caporetto can be butterflyied away...at least as that level of disaster, More importantly no communism and fascism lose a lot of appeal as a bastion against the ungodly red horde and no succesfull revolution mean that the more radical part of the socialist will not be empowered by the Moscow support that at the time was extremely important as the only revolutionary government in existence. Russia at Versailles is in trouble, sure it want compensation but on the other side is weak, debt ridden and a lot of nationalities want out meaning that Woodrow Wilson will feel the need to make the decision for them as he know better, basically Russia is a bigger Italy so i expect that he will mess with everything
A lot will depend on what's happened in Russia and in relations with the western allies but its position is definitely better than OTL. Assuming there's not been any right wing coup leading to a civil war its going to at least get back its Slavic/Orthodox territories and if Germany has tried to establish German monarchs in the Baltic's or Finland could undermine the argument for independence for them. Also their likely to seek and get support for a significantly larger than OTL Armenia as compensation for that people's horrendous suffering and that is going to look toward Russia for support and protection. Poland is likely to be a different matter, especially with the collapse of the Hapsburg empire.
Its going to have economic problems as well as social fragility and disorder but its also going to have access to trade with the rest of the world and quite possibly some investment, especially from the US.
Also given how much Wilson tried to dictate to everybody this could back-fire as with a friendly and reasonably stable Russia, which has also suffered badly from German attacks it could be that American aid isn't seen as worth the costs, especially if as OTL the US refuses any defensive alliance.
Better than OTL? Sure, it's not that difficult and frankly just have Russia being a player at Versailles is a pretty big change...said that Wilson is the one taking all the shot, London know that and even Paris and Moscow (as Rome) even if really not like it know is because well he controll the pursue and frankly he is not shy to use to make the european nations agree with his position and Moscow will depend on foreign loan so Wilson opinion will matter a lot. The polish want out, point and there is no amount of promise by any government in Moscow that can make them change idea (burned too many times) not considering the nationalism born from the war united to the socio-economical consequences of the conflict and abdication of the monarchy and Russia will look at Italy as a bastion of stability
|
|
|
Post by lukedalton on Sept 16, 2024 0:00:51 GMT
Irrilevant if the German stay on the defensive, the blockade is basically killing them they can't survive another turnip winter without their revolution starting and Austria-Hungary will not last even till then With the benefit of hindsight yes, but if they're suing for peace in June of 1918 it's not a factor; Entente planning at that point assumed the war would last into 1919. I'm not suggesting they win, but that they could achieve a much better peace deal given their situation is much better than it was historically by November, 1918. Germany OTL position at Versailles that probably will be their diplomatic proposal for peace is so ridicolous that nobody, not even Wilson can take it seriously, France will immediately refuse it, same for the British it was basically in line with the WW2 Japanese government peace proposal in 1945
|
|
ewellholmes
Petty Officer 1st Class
Posts: 82
Likes: 67
|
Post by ewellholmes on Sept 17, 2024 22:21:32 GMT
With the benefit of hindsight yes, but if they're suing for peace in June of 1918 it's not a factor; Entente planning at that point assumed the war would last into 1919. I'm not suggesting they win, but that they could achieve a much better peace deal given their situation is much better than it was historically by November, 1918. Germany OTL position at Versailles that probably will be their diplomatic proposal for peace is so ridicolous that nobody, not even Wilson can take it seriously, France will immediately refuse it, same for the British it was basically in line with the WW2 Japanese government peace proposal in 1945 The OTL German offer at Versailles was, in private, not considered ridiculous by anyone except perhaps the French; Lloyd George actually wrote it gave him pause in terms of the actual treaty and John Maynard Keynes thought it was the best peace treaty wrote. With that said, we are not dealing with the situation of OTL May 1919 but something far different. None of Germany's allies have been defeated as they were by October of 1918, nor is Germany itself in revolutionary chaos. The German Army has yet to be defeated and, assuming the pullback to the Hindenburg Line is undertaken, is in a well fortified defensive position rather than over-extended and exhausted as it was after the Second Battle of the Marne historically. There's no question at this point that Germany will lose, but the capacity of Berlin to drag things out for longer and at a greater cost to the Entente is there and will inform calculations. Perhaps something like this could be the end result of that:
|
|
nomommsen
Chief petty officer
Posts: 130
Likes: 102
|
Post by nomommsen on Sept 18, 2024 4:49:36 GMT
... maybe the american delegation is succesfull in convince the Russian (and the rest of the allies) that the Russian army is not ready for an offensive at the moment so the kerensky offensive is delayed ... May I ask why the american delegation might do this? IOTL it was rather ... "keen" to push Krernsky towards an offensive ASAP (with kinda : "No offensive, No money (and other goodies to be delivered)!"
Though I agree that an at least delayed and/or ... 'less costly' (in terms of used as well as lost menpower) offensive might at least delay and - whatever might than happen in St.Petersburg and/or Moscow - ev. avoided.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,896
Likes: 13,274
|
Post by stevep on Sept 18, 2024 16:54:39 GMT
Germany OTL position at Versailles that probably will be their diplomatic proposal for peace is so ridicolous that nobody, not even Wilson can take it seriously, France will immediately refuse it, same for the British it was basically in line with the WW2 Japanese government peace proposal in 1945 The OTL German offer at Versailles was, in private, not considered ridiculous by anyone except perhaps the French; Lloyd George actually wrote it gave him pause in terms of the actual treaty and John Maynard Keynes thought it was the best peace treaty wrote. With that said, we are not dealing with the situation of OTL May 1919 but something far different. None of Germany's allies have been defeated as they were by October of 1918, nor is Germany itself in revolutionary chaos. The German Army has yet to be defeated and, assuming the pullback to the Hindenburg Line is undertaken, is in a well fortified defensive position rather than over-extended and exhausted as it was after the Second Battle of the Marne historically. There's no question at this point that Germany will lose, but the capacity of Berlin to drag things out for longer and at a greater cost to the Entente is there and will inform calculations. Perhaps something like this could be the end result of that:
Are you talking about a peace conference at an earlier date because if things continue til late 1918 I can't see the CP allies not being in a state of collapse? Also the continually tightening blockade, especially once the US is in the war will have its impact.
The German army will have been defeated in its attempt to win a final decisive victory and there will be allied offensives coming while they would also have avoided a lot of the heavy casualties that they suffered OTL in spring 1918. They will be able to withdraw back to the Hindenburg Line but that failure will hurt moral and the allies will attack. They might well wait a bit longer until the US forces are available in greater numbers as time is now clearly on their side. Fighting will be heavy as with casualties, especially for the inexperienced Americans but the Hindenburg Line will fall as it did OTL.
If I read the map right your suggesting that Germany will accept the loss of most of the Posen area to a new Polish state and of Alsace-Lorraine to France. Coupled presumably with withdrawal from other occupied areas. That's a huge admission of failure by the regime so it will probably prompt either major political reform and/or a lot of unrest. Also the German allies are going to definitely go down but a lot would depend on the exact circumstances.
|
|
|
Post by lukedalton on Sept 18, 2024 20:44:58 GMT
Germany OTL position at Versailles that probably will be their diplomatic proposal for peace is so ridicolous that nobody, not even Wilson can take it seriously, France will immediately refuse it, same for the British it was basically in line with the WW2 Japanese government peace proposal in 1945 The OTL German offer at Versailles was, in private, not considered ridiculous by anyone except perhaps the French; Lloyd George actually wrote it gave him pause in terms of the actual treaty and John Maynard Keynes thought it was the best peace treaty wrote. With that said, we are not dealing with the situation of OTL May 1919 but something far different. None of Germany's allies have been defeated as they were by October of 1918, nor is Germany itself in revolutionary chaos. The German Army has yet to be defeated and, assuming the pullback to the Hindenburg Line is undertaken, is in a well fortified defensive position rather than over-extended and exhausted as it was after the Second Battle of the Marne historically. There's no question at this point that Germany will lose, but the capacity of Berlin to drag things out for longer and at a greater cost to the Entente is there and will inform calculations. Perhaps something like this could be the end result of that:Let's see Austria-Hungary army lack basically everything (first of all food) and at the moment is trying to concentrate everything they have left for launching a final attack to Italy hoping to knock it out of the war...and even if it succeed ITTL it will not leave the war, Bulgaria already think about leaving the war even because is ravaged by famine, so while not beaten her ally are not really in any shape to continue the war. The German plan include: - referendum for Alsace-Lorraine - giving Posen to the Polish state as the zone is a polish majority but more importantly because it's poor, Silesia that's also a polish majority it will be kept due to the coal but with great generosity it will have somekind of autonomy (whatever it mean) - No port for the new polish state but also very generously it will have special privilege (whatever it mean) in the custom area (this united to the term above mean that the new polish state is basically a German puppet due to necessity) - No reparation between state at max Germany will agree to reparation to private in belgium - the colonies back to her as mandate - general disarmament for everyone involved in the war - a referendum with Austria for an Union (that include south Tyrol, part of Slovenia an the Sudetenland) This is not a negotiated peace, this is snatching victory from the jaws of defeat i don't know if Lloyd George of Keynes really said that but if they have really do it...they were totally moron or wanted France out of the game of power in Europe; for anyone sane it's not acceptable because it will leave Germany in a much much more stronger position that she was at the beginning of the war in relations with everyone in the continent
|
|