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Post by simon darkshade on May 31, 2024 7:24:27 GMT
As the title suggests, what developments could we see if Edward VI, who historically died at 15 of tuberculosis in 1553 after a reign of 6 years?
In the absence of the Catholic ‘interregnum’ under Queen Mary, it is likely that the Protestant settlement will be much firmer established. Unlike his sister Elizabeth, his male status will make his reign a tad smoother in certain diplomatic respects, but it will be ultimately dependent on his ability to produce a healthy male heir.
I would say that many of the general developments seen in the reign of Elizabeth I would occur, although the nature of the King’s policies and instincts upon reaching his majority would be a major influence. Whilst he was something of a capricious youth, some of this can be put upon the character of his regents.
The obvious consequence, should he produce an heir, is that the Stuart succession is avoided; the flow on effects of this would be quite considerable.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 31, 2024 15:55:17 GMT
As the title suggests, what developments could we see if Edward VI, who historically died at 15 of tuberculosis in 1553 after a reign of 6 years? In the absence of the Catholic ‘interregnum’ under Queen Mary, it is likely that the Protestant settlement will be much firmer established. Unlike his sister Elizabeth, his male status will make his reign a tad smoother in certain diplomatic respects, but it will be ultimately dependent on his ability to produce a healthy male heir. I would say that many of the general developments seen in the reign of Elizabeth I would occur, although the nature of the King’s policies and instincts upon reaching his majority would be a major influence. Whilst he was something of a capricious youth, some of this can be put upon the character of his regents. The obvious consequence, should he produce an heir, is that the Stuart succession is avoided; the flow on effects of this would be quite considerable.
That would make a hell of a difference but as you say a lot depends on the mature Edward's character. If he's a more traditional male monarch, with a desire to follow in the path of earlier king's concentrating on military prestige and success he could spend a lot of resources on either seeking to subdue Scotland or renew the Plantagenet claim to the French throne. [While the chance has really gone by now it was a claim that his father among others continued to pursue and was only formally abandon in 1801. One advantage that Elizabeth possibly had because she was a woman with a disputed claim to the throne - at least in Catholic eyes - was that this was a route closed to her so she spent so much of her time looking at other aspects of royal and state power.
If Edward is a more mature monarch who doesn't spend too much time focus on battlefields - albeit they were still very important - then you could see a lot of the OTL development occurring socially and economically while he could avoid some of the problems with frequent internal and external plots that Liz had. Mind you even so there could well be plenty of opportunities for marshal success to be shown. There could be unrest in Wales or Ireland, especially if the fairly hard line Protestantism that was occurring during Edward's early reign continued while a Scottish king could try raiding again. Plus your probably still going to have problems with Philip II and probably some other Catholic rulers. Its possible that instead of France continental war might see a larger involvement in the Dutch revolt.
Its probably likely, unless he had some problems with his fertility, that he will produce children, including some sons although who his queen is could be important for his reign and foreign relations especially. This is likely to mean that the Tudor's are still going strong into the 17thC unless things go badly for England under his rule. As you say that means no Stuarts succession or combining, at least for the moment of the English and Scottish monarchies. That's likely to mean continued division inside the British Isles which means in turn that the monarch and government can't concentrate on external affairs such as trade, colonization and ensuring no power on the continent gets too powerful.
The down side of not having the Stuarts is that you might not get something like the OTL civil wars which while they were bloody did break centralized monarchical power - although not completely until 1688 and then the concessions William III and then George I had to make. There is the danger of England following a more autocratic path and ending up with at worse something like France under Louis XIV.
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Post by halferking on Jun 23, 2024 19:45:05 GMT
It depends on who Edward VI marries:
(a) Mary, Queen of Scots.
(b) Lady Jane Grey.
(c) Someone else.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 23, 2024 20:07:48 GMT
If Edward VI can find a way to avoid getting tuberculosis, then that's only a quarter of the challenges he needs to overcome. Regarding his potential marital match, I'd probably go for either a Dutch or Danish match, depending on who's the available Protestant match. If not either one of those two, maybe a match with some minor noblewoman from the Holy Roman Empire that embraced Protestantism would work.
The other question that I need to ask is, who would Elizabeth marry in this case? Though I've always been a fan of an improbable match involving her (my thought of an improbable match would be her marrying Ivan the Terrible), maybe Elizabeth ends up marrying William the Silent in this scenario, instead of William the Silent marrying Anna of Saxony (Anna of Egmond would end up dying on schedule)
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Post by halferking on Jun 24, 2024 20:46:50 GMT
1 July 1543 England and Scotland signed The Treaty of Greenwich. In the treaty there was a marriage proposal:
Commission of Mary Queen of Scots for the above dated 4 May 1543. Commission of Henry VIII. for the marriage of Prince Edward with Mary Queen of Scots and for peace dated 17 June 35 Hen. VIII. Greenwich, 1 [July 1543.] Treaty of marriage with Scotland concluded by the same commissioners, as follows : (1) That Prince Edward, eldest son and heir apparent of Henry VIII., now in his sixth year, shall marry Mary queen of Scotland, now in her first year. (2) Upon the consummation of the marriage, if the King is still alive, he shall assign to the said Mary, as dower, lands in England to the annual value of 2,000l.; to be increased upon his death to 4,000l. (3) Until, by force of this treaty, the said Mary is brought into England she shall remain in custody of the barons appointed thereto by the Three Estates of Scotland; and yet, for her better education and care, the King may send, at his expense, an English nobleman or gentleman, with his wife or other lady or ladies and their attendants, not exceeding 20 in all, to reside with her. (4) Within a month after she completes her tenth year she shall be delivered to commissioners of England at the bounds of Berwick, provided that before her departure from Scotland the contract of marriage has been duly made by proxy. (5) Within two months after the date of this treaty shall be delivered into England six noblemen of Scotland, two of whom, at the least, shall be earls or next heirs of earls and the rest barons or their next heirs, as hostages for the observance on the part of Scotland of these three conditions, viz., the first and fourth articles of this treaty and the condition that if any of these hostages die he shall be replaced within two months by another of equal quality; Scotland, however, is to have power to change the hostages every six months for others of equal quality. (6) Scotland shall continue to be called the kingdom of Scotland and retain its ancient laws and liberties. (7) If after the marriage the Prince should die without issue the said Princess shall be at liberty to return into Scotland unmarried and free of impediment. (8) Upon her going into England, James earl of Arran, governor of Scotland, who meanwhile shall receive the fruits of that realm, shall receive an acquittance thereof from the King and Prince Edward, a convenient portion for her honourable entry into England reserved. (9) This treaty to be ratified within two months. Marriage Proposal |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jun 25, 2024 0:58:10 GMT
Essentially creating the Kingdom of Great Britain a lot earlier?
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Post by halferking on Jun 25, 2024 16:46:09 GMT
Essentially creating the Kingdom of Great Britain a lot earlier? There would certainly be a personal union of the Crowns whether Edward is able to establish a political union is another matter.
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raharris1973
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Post by raharris1973 on Jul 7, 2024 2:04:48 GMT
then that's only a quarter of the challenges he needs to overcome. What are his other big challenges? Grassroots Catholic discontent? Expensive foreign entanglements helping Protestants abroad? Getting into fights with stronger Catholic foreign powers, like Spain and/or France? |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 7, 2024 2:31:21 GMT
then that's only a quarter of the challenges he needs to overcome. What are his other big challenges? Grassroots Catholic discontent? Expensive foreign entanglements helping Protestants abroad? Getting into fights with stronger Catholic foreign powers, like Spain and/or France? I'd also say a potential succession scenario due to his chronic health, but other than that, it's all of the above. |
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Post by halferking on Jul 7, 2024 8:23:59 GMT
The Eight Years War:
following the Scottish Parliament’s refusal to accept the terms of Treaties of Greenwich, signed 1 July 1543, Henry VIII declared war on Scotland in an attempt to force the Edinburgh Parliament to accept the terms of the Treaties. What followed was a brutal campaign fought on the one side by an alliance of Scotland and France – The Auld Alliance and on the other – England. It is often known as “The Rough Wooing” a phrase popularised by Sir Walter Scott, which belies the brutal nature of the conflict. One historian, William Ferguson, described it as such: “English policy was simply to pulverise Scotland, to beat her either into acquiescence or out of existence, and Hertford's campaigns resemble nothing so much as Nazi total warfare; "blitzkrieg", reign of terror, extermination of all resisters, the encouragement of collaborators, and so on.” [William Ferguson, Scotland's Relations with England, A Survey to 1707 (Edinburgh: John Donald, 1977), p. 61.] James V, Mary’s father, died soon after the Scots suffered a crushing defeat at the Battle of Solway Moss leaving his infant daughter Mary now Queen of Scots with her mother Mary de Guise as Regent. The Scots regrouped and redoubled their efforts to stop the English and on 27 February 1545 they had the advantage of surprise – the setting sun at their backs and a westerly wind conspired to dazzle and confuse the English. The Scots use their long pikes to strike at the English troops causing the English to fall into disarray. This victory lead to a temporary lull in the conflict. Henry VIII died in January 1547 but the war rumbled on under the auspices of young King Edward VI uncle: Edward Seymour, the 1st Duke of Somerset. At this point the Scots were on the losing side with much of southern Scotland under military occupation the Earl of Arran and the French diplomats Henri Cleutin, Sieur d’Oysel and André de Montalembert, Sieur d’Essé signed the Treaty of Haddington and with that the young Mary, Queen of Scots was evacuated to France to marry the Dauphin. If the Scots had agreed to the Treaties of Greenwich then Mary would marry Edward VI and there would be no alliance between France and Scotland leaving England, arguably in a much safer more secure position. |
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Post by halferking on Jul 7, 2024 12:47:03 GMT
Religious upheaval:
The Kingdom had gone from Henrian Reformation of 1534 that essentially was about power more than religion to Edwardian Protestantism formalising the religion of the nation and introducing the Common Book of Prayer in 1547 to Edward VI’s half sister Mary I counter-reformation in 1553.
Elizabeth I, “Good Queen Bess”, sought to end the chaos in an attempt to unify her People under the banner of “A united and prosperous England”. During her reign two major pieces of legislation were passed The Act of Supremacy and The Act of Uniformity. The former “An Acte restoring to the Crowne thauncyent Jurisdiction over the State Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall, and abolyshing all Forreine Power repugnaunt to the same.” The latter reintroduced the Common Prayer Book, similar to the earlier version but this time it retained some Catholic elements.
Edward Seymour, Edward VI uncle, the 1st Duke of Somerset was moderate in his approach to Catholics. That said some were not pleased especially the Cornish and Devonians – they were not happy with the move further to Protestantism, the economic situation and the imposition of English language on them - they rose up in rebellion. Edward crushed the rebellion and its leaders were executed.
We know Mary was married to the Dauphin of France and raised a Catholic. If she married Edward VI she would more than likely become Protestant. I wonder would Mary have sympathy for the English Catholics – her mother and father – both Catholic and would she become a potential lightening rod for Catholic agitators.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 7, 2024 14:40:41 GMT
Religious upheaval: The Kingdom had gone from Henrian Reformation of 1534 that essentially was about power more than religion to Edwardian Protestantism formalising the religion of the nation and introducing the Common Book of Prayer in 1547 to Edward VI’s half sister Mary I counter-reformation in 1553. Elizabeth I, “Good Queen Bess”, sought to end the chaos in an attempt to unify her People under the banner of “A united and prosperous England”. During her reign two major pieces of legislation were passed The Act of Supremacy and The Act of Uniformity. The former “An Acte restoring to the Crowne thauncyent Jurisdiction over the State Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall, and abolyshing all Forreine Power repugnaunt to the same.” The latter reintroduced the Common Prayer Book, similar to the earlier version but this time it retained some Catholic elements. Edward Seymour, Edward VI uncle, the 1st Duke of Somerset was moderate in his approach to Catholics. That said some were not pleased especially the Cornish and Devonians – they were not happy with the move further to Protestantism, the economic situation and the imposition of English language on them - they rose up in rebellion. Edward crushed the rebellion and its leaders were executed. We know Mary was married to the Dauphin of France and raised a Catholic. If she married Edward VI she would more than likely become Protestant. I wonder would Mary have sympathy for the English Catholics – her mother and father – both Catholic and would she become a potential lightening rod for Catholic agitators.
On the last point a lot would depend on her upbringing in those circumstances. Also on the state of religion inside England [and probably Scotland]. It could be that she seeks to maintain moderation and encourages her husband to offer the hand of friendship to them. Or she could have what I call convert fever in that she feels a need to demonstrate her commitment to her new faith/homeland. Similarly how are the Catholics, both in Britain and especially Rome acting. If there are any terrorist type activities or if the Papacy are declaring the pair heretics and calling on loyal Catholics to murder/depose them then her reaction could be distinctly hostile. Again of course how happy or not is the marriage. Its not unknown for a deeply unhappy queen to be at least implicated in the removal of her husband [Edward II say] albeit that in those circumstances anything related to that, especially if accompanied by a chance of religious stance would probably get a nasty reaction. Unless of course Edward VI proved as deeply unpopular as Edward II.
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raharris1973
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Post by raharris1973 on Jul 19, 2024 3:28:54 GMT
There is the danger of England following a more autocratic path and ending up with at worse something like France under Louis XIV. If Edward has a long reign that is severely Protestant, without a Catholic interruption by Mary, but continues on with his father's domineering nature, England could flow into an absolutism under him, supported by what, by the end of his reign, is a finally emergent Protestant majority and heavily Protestant power structure. Maybe without parliament and nobility having Catholic takeover phobia from Mary's reign, and later Tudor reigns, parliament and nobility are more quiescent about their religious/conscience liberties under a few Tudor Kings in a row, leading England down a path similar to Scandinavian or Prussian style Protestant absolutism rather than towards Dutch liberty or English Whiggishness? |
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Post by halferking on Jul 19, 2024 17:35:03 GMT
Religious upheaval: The Kingdom had gone from Henrian Reformation of 1534 that essentially was about power more than religion to Edwardian Protestantism formalising the religion of the nation and introducing the Common Book of Prayer in 1547 to Edward VI’s half sister Mary I counter-reformation in 1553. Elizabeth I, “Good Queen Bess”, sought to end the chaos in an attempt to unify her People under the banner of “A united and prosperous England”. During her reign two major pieces of legislation were passed The Act of Supremacy and The Act of Uniformity. The former “An Acte restoring to the Crowne thauncyent Jurisdiction over the State Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall, and abolyshing all Forreine Power repugnaunt to the same.” The latter reintroduced the Common Prayer Book, similar to the earlier version but this time it retained some Catholic elements. Edward Seymour, Edward VI uncle, the 1st Duke of Somerset was moderate in his approach to Catholics. That said some were not pleased especially the Cornish and Devonians – they were not happy with the move further to Protestantism, the economic situation and the imposition of English language on them - they rose up in rebellion. Edward crushed the rebellion and its leaders were executed. We know Mary was married to the Dauphin of France and raised a Catholic. If she married Edward VI she would more than likely become Protestant. I wonder would Mary have sympathy for the English Catholics – her mother and father – both Catholic and would she become a potential lightening rod for Catholic agitators.
On the last point a lot would depend on her upbringing in those circumstances. Also on the state of religion inside England [and probably Scotland]. It could be that she seeks to maintain moderation and encourages her husband to offer the hand of friendship to them. Or she could have what I call convert fever in that she feels a need to demonstrate her commitment to her new faith/homeland. Similarly how are the Catholics, both in Britain and especially Rome acting. If there are any terrorist type activities or if the Papacy are declaring the pair heretics and calling on loyal Catholics to murder/depose them then her reaction could be distinctly hostile. Again of course how happy or not is the marriage. Its not unknown for a deeply unhappy queen to be at least implicated in the removal of her husband [Edward II say] albeit that in those circumstances anything related to that, especially if accompanied by a chance of religious stance would probably get a nasty reaction. Unless of course Edward VI proved as deeply unpopular as Edward II.
His early reign was dominated by powerful nobles hungry for control of the young King. What if this makes him an ineffective ruler?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 19, 2024 22:03:10 GMT
On the last point a lot would depend on her upbringing in those circumstances. Also on the state of religion inside England [and probably Scotland]. It could be that she seeks to maintain moderation and encourages her husband to offer the hand of friendship to them. Or she could have what I call convert fever in that she feels a need to demonstrate her commitment to her new faith/homeland. Similarly how are the Catholics, both in Britain and especially Rome acting. If there are any terrorist type activities or if the Papacy are declaring the pair heretics and calling on loyal Catholics to murder/depose them then her reaction could be distinctly hostile. Again of course how happy or not is the marriage. Its not unknown for a deeply unhappy queen to be at least implicated in the removal of her husband [Edward II say] albeit that in those circumstances anything related to that, especially if accompanied by a chance of religious stance would probably get a nasty reaction. Unless of course Edward VI proved as deeply unpopular as Edward II.
His early reign was dominated by powerful nobles hungry for control of the young King. What if this makes him an ineffective ruler?
It might do, or make him a short lived one if someone things he's gaining too much knowledge/influence. However its possible that seeing his youth being dominated by squabbling nobles might make him a strong ruler, or at least an autocratic one because he's determined to wrestle back royal power from those nobles.
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