kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Mar 18, 2024 12:37:16 GMT
I think a Britain/America split could avoid the Korean war that is.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 18, 2024 20:56:02 GMT
I think a Britain/America split could avoid the Korean war that is.
I would think such a split, regardless of how it happens is more likely to make a war more likely. Since it would split the western world and make it harder to oppose any communist attack.
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Post by raharris1973 on Mar 19, 2024 0:36:03 GMT
Oh, oppose Soviet influence in Egypt, by competing with it? Meeting Nasser's needs for weapons and Aswan Dam funding before the Soviets do, and diverting them from seizing the Canal for its revenues?
The ironic thing was that Britain refused Egyptian approaches for funding for the dam because of pressure from the US who wanted Egypt punished for buying arms from the USSR. Then we were back-stabbed us when Egypt seized the canal and we tried to oppose that illegal move.
Given the hostility displayed by Nasser's government in the preceding years it's likely that there would have been an attack on the commercial status of the canal sooner or later.
I think it was even sillier than punishment for Soviet/Czech arms. It was punishment for recognizing Communist China instead of Nationalist China/Taiwan.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Mar 19, 2024 1:41:43 GMT
I think a Britain/America split could avoid the Korean war that is.
I would think such a split, regardless of how it happens is more likely to make a war more likely. Since it would split the western world and make it harder to oppose any communist attack.
Yes, it can either help or damage the Korean Republic so it can shorten the Korean War if it exists, I think a Britain/America split could also make America approve a Nuke of China, which could make a relationship between America and China difficult in the future, A nuke of China by America will also make relationship between Britain and US difficult as well as Britain has interests with China.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 19, 2024 14:36:14 GMT
I would think such a split, regardless of how it happens is more likely to make a war more likely. Since it would split the western world and make it harder to oppose any communist attack.
Yes, it can either help or damage the Korean Republic so it can shorten the Korean War if it exists, I think a Britain/America split could also make America approve a Nuke of China, which could make a relationship between America and China difficult in the future, A nuke of China by America will also make relationship between Britain and US difficult as well as Britain has interests with China.
On the last bit not really by this time other than the possession of Hong Kong. Some of the companies had thought they could work with the communists after their take over but quickly found their assets seized.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Mar 20, 2024 0:09:38 GMT
Yes, it can either help or damage the Korean Republic so it can shorten the Korean War if it exists, I think a Britain/America split could also make America approve a Nuke of China, which could make a relationship between America and China difficult in the future, A nuke of China by America will also make relationship between Britain and US difficult as well as Britain has interests with China.
On the last bit not really by this time other than the possession of Hong Kong. Some of the companies had thought they could work with the communists after their take over but quickly found their assets seized.
Yes, but when China opened, they started to move manufacturing there along with the Americans, if China still opened after a Nuke of China by the Americans it is less likely for the Americans to build factories there and perhaps the British and their allies/colonies could build factories there instead creating a monopoly of trade and production by the British and Commonwealth States in China.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 20, 2024 9:21:07 GMT
On the last bit not really by this time other than the possession of Hong Kong. Some of the companies had thought they could work with the communists after their take over but quickly found their assets seized.
Yes, but when China opened, they started to move manufacturing there along with the Americans, if China still opened after a Nuke of China by the Americans it is less likely for the Americans to build factories there and perhaps the British and their allies/colonies could build factories there instead creating a monopoly of trade and production by the British and Commonwealth States in China.
I think when China opened up - OTL after the death of Mao and defeat of their gang of 4 extremists - the main investment funding initially came from other nations in E Asia, Japan, S Korea and Taiwan. Plus if there is a nuclear strike by the US on China that's more likely to harden hostility towards the west in general. After all while there might be differences between the US and a UK that could stand on its own to a degree the two and especially the UK are still going to be very concerned about the USSR and its threat to western Europe.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 20, 2024 9:45:51 GMT
Steve is right. If China is hit, there won’t be any ‘opening’ up, let alone movement of factories and concerns. The latter was almost entirely an American factor; a British factories closed full stop in the 1960s-1990s, rather than being moved to China in the 2000s.
As of the Korean War, British interests in China had rapidly evaporated. Again, as Steve says (I end up saying that quite a bit), there is a difference between Hong Kong and, say, the British position in China in the 20s or pre WW1. It is important to remember that all of those previous investments, trade and company links…did not survive through the Sino-Japanese War well.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Mar 20, 2024 10:37:24 GMT
Steve is right. If China is hit, there won’t be any ‘opening’ up, let alone movement of factories and concerns. The latter was almost entirely an American factor; a British factories closed full stop in the 1960s-1990s, rather than being moved to China in the 2000s. As of the Korean War, British interests in China had rapidly evaporated. Again, as Steve says (I end up saying that quite a bit), there is a difference between Hong Kong and, say, the British position in China in the 20s or pre WW1. It is important to remember that all of those previous investments, trade and company links…did not survive through the Sino-Japanese War well. Yes, but when China opened, they started to move manufacturing there along with the Americans, if China still opened after a Nuke of China by the Americans it is less likely for the Americans to build factories there and perhaps the British and their allies/colonies could build factories there instead creating a monopoly of trade and production by the British and Commonwealth States in China. I think when China opened up - OTL after the death of Mao and defeat of their gang of 4 extremists - the main investment funding initially came from other nations in E Asia, Japan, S Korea and Taiwan. Plus if there is a nuclear strike by the US on China that's more likely to harden hostility towards the west in general. After all while there might be differences between the US and a UK that could stand on its own to a degree the two and especially the UK are still going to be very concerned about the USSR and its threat to western Europe.
Another possible wildcard is if Taiwan is also seized by China after a Nuclear attack by the US on China, I think Taiwan might be the price if US decides to bomb China to stop its alliance with North Korea.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 20, 2024 11:30:19 GMT
That…doesn’t make sense. Before any U.S. strike, Red China lacked the ability to cross the Taiwan Strait.
After it, there won’t be sufficient force or support left.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Mar 20, 2024 11:54:05 GMT
That…doesn’t make sense. Before any U.S. strike, Red China lacked the ability to cross the Taiwan Strait. After it, there won’t be sufficient force or support left. But that does not happen immediately perhaps in another decade after the nuking of China.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 21, 2024 0:31:21 GMT
Say if Stalin decided that escalating things in Korea would be more costly than it's worth, he wouldn't allow Kim Il-Sung to attack the South. However, that does not mean Rhee Syng-man wouldn't throw the first punch either, as he might be more ambitious in attempting to reunite the Korean peninsula. If the US tells Rhee to not attack as well, then the Korean peninsula would stabilize for a while, until Stalin's death.
I would also predict that a conflict between the North and the South would play out similarly to what happened in Vietnam, with an underground communist movement in the South causing chaos there (there's also a South Korean Communist Party that existed before 1948, but some of its members had initiated an armed guerrilla struggle before the Korean War broke out). I would suspect that this South Korean Communist guerrilla movement would become an earlier analogue to the Viet Cong, but less organized than its VC counterpart.
Another interesting side effect of a no-Korean War would be post-war Japan's possible economic recovery, which may not happen as a result of them not taking advantage of another country's conflict to reposition itself as a supply hub. Labor disputes would continue, and political violence would be far worse than what has happened in the 1930s. However, sooner or later, there would be a conflict in the Korean peninsula, though of different conditions. I would suspect that a long terrorist campaign on part of the South Korean communists might destabilize the South Korean government long enough for the North to launch its attack.
Overall, a reunified Korea might not be as wealthy as its OTL southern counterpart, because of how devastated it is, but it wouldn't have episodes of famines and malnutrition. However, it would still have gulags and other kinds of concentration camps, which would be a downer.
I might actually plan on adopting this kind of scenario for a map project.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Mar 21, 2024 3:13:39 GMT
Say if Stalin decided that escalating things in Korea would be more costly than it's worth, he wouldn't allow Kim Il-Sung to attack the South. However, that does not mean Rhee Syng-man wouldn't throw the first punch either, as he might be more ambitious in attempting to reunite the Korean peninsula. If the US tells Rhee to not attack as well, then the Korean peninsula would stabilize for a while, until Stalin's death. I would also predict that a conflict between the North and the South would play out similarly to what happened in Vietnam, with an underground communist movement in the South causing chaos there (there's also a South Korean Communist Party that existed before 1948, but some of its members had initiated an armed guerrilla struggle before the Korean War broke out). I would suspect that this South Korean Communist guerrilla movement would become an earlier analogue to the Viet Cong, but less organized than its VC counterpart. Another interesting side effect of a no-Korean War would be post-war Japan's possible economic recovery, which may not happen as a result of them not taking advantage of another country's conflict to reposition itself as a supply hub. Labor disputes would continue, and political violence would be far worse than what has happened in the 1930s. However, sooner or later, there would be a conflict in the Korean peninsula, though of different conditions. I would suspect that a long terrorist campaign on part of the South Korean communists might destabilize the South Korean government long enough for the North to launch its attack. Overall, a reunified Korea might not be as wealthy as its OTL southern counterpart, because of how devastated it is, but it wouldn't have episodes of famines and malnutrition. However, it would still have gulags and other kinds of concentration camps, which would be a downer. I might actually plan on adopting this kind of scenario for a map project. I think if Peace happened with Japan without the Atomic Bomb or if another city was chosen other than Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the situation between Korea and Japan might be better as both Korea and Japan will have significant Christian Minorities.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 21, 2024 4:12:54 GMT
I might actually plan on adopting this kind of scenario for a map project. I think if Peace happened with Japan without the Atomic Bomb or if another city was chosen other than Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the situation between Korea and Japan might be better as both Korea and Japan will have significant Christian Minorities. Kyoto was actually considered a plausible target though.
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 21, 2024 7:23:13 GMT
That…doesn’t make sense. Before any U.S. strike, Red China lacked the ability to cross the Taiwan Strait. After it, there won’t be sufficient force or support left. But that does not happen immediately perhaps in another decade after the nuking of China. That makes little sense. It would require the US to hit China with multiple nuclear weapons, then turn around and go home afterwards whilst leaving a live enemy behind. The only way we get the latter course of action is in event of a late 1950s/early 1960s kitchen sink hit on China. That, by its nature, does not allow for a recovery within a decade, or a century.
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