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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Feb 9, 2024 15:09:45 GMT
What if for some reason the Donation of Pepin never took place? How would it influence to he history of Europe?
IMO the Pope would then come under the control of whoever happens to rule Central Italy, which means the rest of Europe would just stop obeying him. Rulers in France, Germany, England and elsewhere declare their own popes and the local churches become puppets of local rulers. Catholicism looks like Eastern Orthodoxy.
Anyone to disagree/agree with this?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 10, 2024 12:11:05 GMT
What if for some reason the Donation of Pepin never took place? How would it influence to he history of Europe? IMO the Pope would then come under the control of whoever happens to rule Central Italy, which means the rest of Europe would just stop obeying him. Rulers in France, Germany, England and elsewhere declare their own popes and the local churches become puppets of local rulers. Catholicism looks like Eastern Orthodoxy. Anyone to disagree/agree with this?
Interesting idea. A lot would depend on the details as the situation extended over several years and while Pepin might reject the initial appeal he could decide to respond later, especially if Aistulf later seeks to attack Rome itself. However if he doesn't then the other issues are: a) Does Aistulf seek to occupy Rome and can he make that stick? Probably going to be a lot of unrest so it could be a costly operation. Not to mention you might have some sort of early 'crusade' called by the pope and getting a response from assorted Catholic nations.
In which case if Aistulf wins then the Papacy could end up being a Lombardy puppet and hence your idea is very likely. If he fails and it possibly results in an earlier collapse of Lombard you likely to see a situation similar to OTL although possibly with direct Frankish - not sure who else was about in the time and able to help - rule in parts of N Italy.
b) Does Pepin or another Frankish monarch come in a few years or decades down the line. I could see Charlemagne if he still emerges as a great conqueror seeking a deal with the pope as OTL.
This would tend to reassert OTL position although possibly with a clear link between the Papacy and the French monarchy.
c) What does the empire do? If it can reassert its power at a later stage this could see imperial power, with possibly a growing Orthodox presence established in Italy again and reaching into the north. Again how stable this could be is an issue but if you have the OTL imperial revival occurring possibly a bit earlier and going west as well as south that would very likely nullify any centralized Catholic church as its likely to fragment into national churches. Even an occupation that ultimately fails a few generations or a century or two down the line could permanently reduce the power of the pope and probably lead to a longer Orthodox primacy in S Italy. If it lasts and Italy is fully incorporated in the empire does it become a strength or a weakness. It adds resources but also the task of defending it against internal, Catholic and Muslim opponents and also the issue of whether you could see a claim for an Italian empire or twin capital based around the old Roman core.
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