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Post by Max Sinister on Jan 20, 2024 11:54:58 GMT
AH has many aspects. There's war, diplomacy (important for redrawing maps!), elections, science and technology, sometimes culture, natural disasters, health (spontaneous heart attacks especially), and many more.
One aspect that seems neglected to me, however, is human psychology. The motivations people have.
To give one example: Charles Lindbergh as POTUS. A popular AH trope, seen in the TL "Reich-5" (GURPS Alternate Earths), "The Plot against America", and probably some more TLs.
After all, it seems to make sense: He was one of the most popular Americans, a bit naive about the Nazi Reich, and an isolationist.
Yeah, except... after the abduction and murder of his child (you may heard of it), he became afraid of showing his face in public, fearing one more crime like this.
So, unless you find a way to change that, there'll be no POTUS Lindbergh, no isolationist US, and no victorious Nazi Reich. (OK, the latter might fail for many other reasons, even without the arsenal of democracy.)
This was just one example. You may think up many more - and also try to find a solution for such questions.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 20, 2024 12:15:35 GMT
Well there are a fair number of cases where a TL assumes a drastic change, generally with an historical leader doing something drastically different and against the values deeply ingrained in their character. This happens especially with characters such as Hitler and Stalin in WWII, or some of their underlings, or people earlier such as Napoleon, Alexander, Genghis Khan, assorted other great emperors, conquerors or other military or political figures. Its definitely an issue
In the case of Lindbergh the simplest answer would be that his child isn't abducted, or possibly rescued safely. Otherwise some other event occurs that enables him to overcome his phobia. Possibly a friend or family member manages to persuade him to seek professional help and this results in his social problems being resolved. Or possibly some other shock/crisis forces him to break out of his isolation. - Its a somewhat different matter but I thought of George VI and how he overcame his stammer and fears about public speaking. If your not familiar with this see The King's Speech. Somewhat different in the affects on the main character but a successful resolution of a psychological issue. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Jan 31, 2024 21:34:31 GMT
Now I am no psychologist and also don't claim I was the greatest experts about human minds. However, I've got a certain impression that this area is a) very important and b) quite neglected by AH authors. Hence, an area where you might become a pioneer. Currently, people often kill off great men(tm) and women of history by heart attacks and car accidents, but rarely seem to use events which leave them alive and kicking. There seem to be two ways to achieve that: - The acute one - events after which life won't be the same anymore. As the one mentioned with Lindbergh. (Or the inversion: A shocking event from OTL doesn't happen.)
- The chronic one - people change because some situation influences their mind for a long time, without significant pauses to recover from it.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 31, 2024 23:34:38 GMT
Now I am no psychologist and also don't claim I was the greatest experts about human minds. However, I've got a certain impression that this area is a) very important and b) quite neglected by AH authors. Hence, an area where you might become a pioneer. Currently, people often kill off great men(tm) and women of history by heart attacks and car accidents, but rarely seem to use events which leave them alive and kicking. There seem to be two ways to achieve that: - The acute one - events after which life won't be the same anymore. As the one mentioned with Lindbergh. (Or the inversion: A shocking event from OTL doesn't happen.)
- The chronic one - people change because some situation influences their mind for a long time, without significant pauses to recover from it.
1. Christian IV fell through a planking walkway upon his horse inspecting fortifications. The horse died Christian was injured and possibly severely shocked so that his mind changed becoming more fatalist thus not always acting when he should.
2. Queen Victoria if Albert had lived.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Feb 2, 2024 9:18:39 GMT
ISOT is part of AH it's having its own sub-board here and at AHcom. At others its just a jumble.
Part of an ISOT scenario is adressing the impact of the event on those transported and those in the transported to World. The impact is very much psycological.
This is usually only touched upon in a written out scenario usually not in a pure discussion which tend to focus on more national impact.
Those scenario's where handling psycology of either is really difficult and usually is treated with Religion are those set - regarding ISOT nation/area/entity - in a far past. Its much easier to relate to possible psycological effects if the ISOT happens in a timeframe set in author's lifespan! (to me at least)
Generally I would expect it to be the scenario where psycology would have free reign for crazyness!
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 3, 2024 22:53:55 GMT
575, yeah - considered how people can go crazy about far less world-moving events, ISoTed people seem to take it pretty easy. At least in most stories I'm aware of. Psychological problems usually are handwaved, if anything.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 4, 2024 9:12:35 GMT
575 , yeah - considered how people can go crazy about far less world-moving events, ISoTed people seem to take it pretty easy. At least in most stories I'm aware of. Psychological problems usually are handwaved, if anything.
I think it might be to simplify things and also in reaction to the argument that in an ISOT going back more than a couple of centuries from the present age the down-timers reaction would be along the line of "burn the heretics". Can recall when I was on the AH site that posters often argued that people in earlier times were far more sophisticated than many nowadays assumed.
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 8, 2024 22:43:16 GMT
Now I am no psychologist and also don't claim I was the greatest experts about human minds. However, I've got a certain impression that this area is a) very important and b) quite neglected by AH authors. Hence, an area where you might become a pioneer. Currently, people often kill off great men(tm) and women of history by heart attacks and car accidents, but rarely seem to use events which leave them alive and kicking. There seem to be two ways to achieve that: - The acute one - events after which life won't be the same anymore. As the one mentioned with Lindbergh. (Or the inversion: A shocking event from OTL doesn't happen.)
- The chronic one - people change because some situation influences their mind for a long time, without significant pauses to recover from it.
1. Christian IV fell through a planking walkway upon his horse inspecting fortifications. The horse died Christian was injured and possibly severely shocked so that his mind changed becoming more fatalist thus not always acting when he should.
2. Queen Victoria if Albert had lived.
Yeah, maybe we'd get "Victorian principles" that'd mean something completely different.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 27, 2024 21:42:28 GMT
Since he appears so often in AH (...and even has the fitting initials for it!  ): How would the personality of Adolf Hitler aka the "führer" develop in ATLs? If things went better for him (at least temporarily), would he become less crazy? He never was the most sane to start with, but also not all the time as crazy as after July 20th. Or would he become crazy in a different way? More paranoid, if things go worse - more overestimating himself, if they go well? In any case, the Germans would be screwed if they're still stuck with him. Or would he be more mellow if things went well for him and Nazi Germany? |
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 16, 2024 13:28:31 GMT
Another thought. As said, killing off Great Men(tm) of history by heart attacks, traffic incidents, mad assassins and such has been used pretty often. Fewer people are using more subtle PoDs, where minor characters may be killed, which indirectly influences the major ones.
Theoretical example: During the encirclement battle of Kiev in WW2, Soviet general Budyonny is killed. Either in battle, or when they try to fly him out. The exact reason doesn't matter.
Now Budyonny wasn't just a general, but also a drinking buddy of "comrade" Stalin. This may actually matter more. There were better generals than him (being an old cavalry man, he didn't think that these newfangled tanks mattered). But if he won't be around anymore to play the harmonica at Stalin's drinking binges, Stalin's mood will be influenced in the negative. This might have repercussions...
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): How would the personality of Adolf Hitler aka the "führer" develop in ATLs? If things went better for him (at least temporarily), would he become less crazy? He never was the most sane to start with, but also not all the time as crazy as after July 20th. Or would he become crazy in a different way? More paranoid, if things go worse - more overestimating himself, if they go well? In any case, the Germans would be screwed if they're still stuck with him. Or would he be more mellow if things went well for him and Nazi Germany?