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Post by Max Sinister on Jan 20, 2024 11:54:58 GMT
AH has many aspects. There's war, diplomacy (important for redrawing maps!), elections, science and technology, sometimes culture, natural disasters, health (spontaneous heart attacks especially), and many more.
One aspect that seems neglected to me, however, is human psychology. The motivations people have.
To give one example: Charles Lindbergh as POTUS. A popular AH trope, seen in the TL "Reich-5" (GURPS Alternate Earths), "The Plot against America", and probably some more TLs.
After all, it seems to make sense: He was one of the most popular Americans, a bit naive about the Nazi Reich, and an isolationist.
Yeah, except... after the abduction and murder of his child (you may heard of it), he became afraid of showing his face in public, fearing one more crime like this.
So, unless you find a way to change that, there'll be no POTUS Lindbergh, no isolationist US, and no victorious Nazi Reich. (OK, the latter might fail for many other reasons, even without the arsenal of democracy.)
This was just one example. You may think up many more - and also try to find a solution for such questions.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 20, 2024 12:15:35 GMT
Well there are a fair number of cases where a TL assumes a drastic change, generally with an historical leader doing something drastically different and against the values deeply ingrained in their character. This happens especially with characters such as Hitler and Stalin in WWII, or some of their underlings, or people earlier such as Napoleon, Alexander, Genghis Khan, assorted other great emperors, conquerors or other military or political figures. Its definitely an issue
In the case of Lindbergh the simplest answer would be that his child isn't abducted, or possibly rescued safely. Otherwise some other event occurs that enables him to overcome his phobia. Possibly a friend or family member manages to persuade him to seek professional help and this results in his social problems being resolved. Or possibly some other shock/crisis forces him to break out of his isolation. - Its a somewhat different matter but I thought of George VI and how he overcame his stammer and fears about public speaking. If your not familiar with this see The King's Speech. Somewhat different in the affects on the main character but a successful resolution of a psychological issue.
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Post by Max Sinister on Jan 31, 2024 21:34:31 GMT
Now I am no psychologist and also don't claim I was the greatest experts about human minds. However, I've got a certain impression that this area is a) very important and b) quite neglected by AH authors. Hence, an area where you might become a pioneer. Currently, people often kill off great men(tm) and women of history by heart attacks and car accidents, but rarely seem to use events which leave them alive and kicking. There seem to be two ways to achieve that: - The acute one - events after which life won't be the same anymore. As the one mentioned with Lindbergh. (Or the inversion: A shocking event from OTL doesn't happen.)
- The chronic one - people change because some situation influences their mind for a long time, without significant pauses to recover from it.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 31, 2024 23:34:38 GMT
Now I am no psychologist and also don't claim I was the greatest experts about human minds. However, I've got a certain impression that this area is a) very important and b) quite neglected by AH authors. Hence, an area where you might become a pioneer. Currently, people often kill off great men(tm) and women of history by heart attacks and car accidents, but rarely seem to use events which leave them alive and kicking. There seem to be two ways to achieve that: - The acute one - events after which life won't be the same anymore. As the one mentioned with Lindbergh. (Or the inversion: A shocking event from OTL doesn't happen.)
- The chronic one - people change because some situation influences their mind for a long time, without significant pauses to recover from it.
1. Christian IV fell through a planking walkway upon his horse inspecting fortifications. The horse died Christian was injured and possibly severely shocked so that his mind changed becoming more fatalist thus not always acting when he should.
2. Queen Victoria if Albert had lived.
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 2, 2024 9:18:39 GMT
ISOT is part of AH it's having its own sub-board here and at AHcom. At others its just a jumble.
Part of an ISOT scenario is adressing the impact of the event on those transported and those in the transported to World. The impact is very much psycological. This is usually only touched upon in a written out scenario usually not in a pure discussion which tend to focus on more national impact. Those scenario's where handling psycology of either is really difficult and usually is treated with Religion are those set - regarding ISOT nation/area/entity - in a far past. Its much easier to relate to possible psycological effects if the ISOT happens in a timeframe set in author's lifespan! (to me at least) Generally I would expect it to be the scenario where psycology would have free reign for crazyness!
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 3, 2024 22:53:55 GMT
575, yeah - considered how people can go crazy about far less world-moving events, ISoTed people seem to take it pretty easy. At least in most stories I'm aware of. Psychological problems usually are handwaved, if anything.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 4, 2024 9:12:35 GMT
575 , yeah - considered how people can go crazy about far less world-moving events, ISoTed people seem to take it pretty easy. At least in most stories I'm aware of. Psychological problems usually are handwaved, if anything.
I think it might be to simplify things and also in reaction to the argument that in an ISOT going back more than a couple of centuries from the present age the down-timers reaction would be along the line of "burn the heretics". Can recall when I was on the AH site that posters often argued that people in earlier times were far more sophisticated than many nowadays assumed.
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Post by Max Sinister on Feb 8, 2024 22:43:16 GMT
Now I am no psychologist and also don't claim I was the greatest experts about human minds. However, I've got a certain impression that this area is a) very important and b) quite neglected by AH authors. Hence, an area where you might become a pioneer. Currently, people often kill off great men(tm) and women of history by heart attacks and car accidents, but rarely seem to use events which leave them alive and kicking. There seem to be two ways to achieve that: - The acute one - events after which life won't be the same anymore. As the one mentioned with Lindbergh. (Or the inversion: A shocking event from OTL doesn't happen.)
- The chronic one - people change because some situation influences their mind for a long time, without significant pauses to recover from it.
1. Christian IV fell through a planking walkway upon his horse inspecting fortifications. The horse died Christian was injured and possibly severely shocked so that his mind changed becoming more fatalist thus not always acting when he should.
2. Queen Victoria if Albert had lived.
Yeah, maybe we'd get "Victorian principles" that'd mean something completely different.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 27, 2024 21:42:28 GMT
Since he appears so often in AH (...and even has the fitting initials for it! ): How would the personality of Adolf Hitler aka the "führer" develop in ATLs? If things went better for him (at least temporarily), would he become less crazy? He never was the most sane to start with, but also not all the time as crazy as after July 20th. Or would he become crazy in a different way? More paranoid, if things go worse - more overestimating himself, if they go well? In any case, the Germans would be screwed if they're still stuck with him. Or would he be more mellow if things went well for him and Nazi Germany?
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 16, 2024 13:28:31 GMT
Another thought. As said, killing off Great Men(tm) of history by heart attacks, traffic incidents, mad assassins and such has been used pretty often. Fewer people are using more subtle PoDs, where minor characters may be killed, which indirectly influences the major ones.
Theoretical example: During the encirclement battle of Kiev in WW2, Soviet general Budyonny is killed. Either in battle, or when they try to fly him out. The exact reason doesn't matter.
Now Budyonny wasn't just a general, but also a drinking buddy of "comrade" Stalin. This may actually matter more. There were better generals than him (being an old cavalry man, he didn't think that these newfangled tanks mattered). But if he won't be around anymore to play the harmonica at Stalin's drinking binges, Stalin's mood will be influenced in the negative. This might have repercussions...
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Post by Max Sinister on May 1, 2024 23:56:25 GMT
Some concrete example: In an ATL where the Nazis win at Dunkirk, but still can't invade Britain (obviously): How would the "führer" react? Would he get so mad at helpless Britain defying him that he'd be willing to strike at the Empire wherever possible? Be willing to decide for a Mediterranean strategy? Be willing to make concessions to "comrade" Stalin for the Continental Block? Or so mad even that he'd try Sea Lion anyway?
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575
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Post by 575 on May 2, 2024 6:57:31 GMT
Some concrete example: In an ATL where the Nazis win at Dunkirk, but still can't invade Britain (obviously): How would the "führer" react? Would he get so mad at helpless Britain defying him that he'd be willing to strike at the Empire wherever possible? Be willing to decide for a Mediterranean strategy? Be willing to make concessions to "comrade" Stalin for the Continental Block? Or so mad even that he'd try Sea Lion anyway? Would possibly leave him in the OTL situation of - what now?
Sea Lion and then go East though I don't know how a defeated SL would influence the festivities of the earlier great victory in the West which would also be a signal to Stalin that the Germans aren't invincible. I don't think Hitler will like such a situation. Forces lost at SL may be mainly Infantry and Airmobile so may not be that big impact upon buildup for Barbarossa but the psycological impact! Still a buildup pause would be needed before going East.
Sea Lion failing and then forcing Franco to open the door for a go at Gibraltar and reinforce the Italians to finish the British in WD. Possibly forcing Vichy too to let German troops enter Tunesia for staging a larger force into NA and the Levant to hit Egypt from the NE though that would need some island hopping or Marita-Mercur + possibly getting Turkey as an ally. Getting enmeshed in the Med would rob him of the time to build up the Army for Barbarossa at least in 1941 postponing it to 42 as more Armour would be deployed into Spain and NA. Then going for the Balkans too and Levant may be too big a drain.
Behind the scenes would be the German industry which still wouldn't be geared up to replace losses at the rate they'll be coming.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 2, 2024 11:08:54 GMT
I think if the bulk of the BEF was lost in France and Britain still decided to fight on then you would still get the Battle of Britain with almost certainly the same result. Its possibly that the RAF might be forced to withdraw northwards, outside of Luftwaffe fighter range but that would give them a chance to regroup. This might prompt the Germans to invade but its likely to end in disaster for them given a revived RAF against an overstretched LW and with the RN as well.
As 575 said that's likely to largely be infantry and para losses along with air and naval/merchant shipping units so a Barbarossa in 41 would still be quite possible and probably not greatly weakened but might also mean Germany doesn't rescue Italy in both the Balkans and N Africa. I agree it would hit German prestige markedly although there is a possible down side of this as it might make Stalin too complacent - albeit he seems to have been overwhelmingly so anyway until the invasion struck.
A concentration on a Med campaign could be dangerous for Britain, especially if Franco and Vichy could be strong-armed into allowing passage and use of their bases in Spain and FNA. That would ensure the loss of Gibraltar and Malta and bases in Spain and possibly French Morocco considerably increasing the threat to British supply lines. However if the British leadership is responsible I think Egypt would be safe as the logistical burden facing the Axis to project power across the Med and then across the desert from Tripoli to Alexandria. [They can use ports further east such as Benghazi and Tobruk but those are also a fair distance from the front and of limited capacity and would require more consumption of fairly scarce fuel oil for the ships involved]. Also Britain has counters to this strategy in terms of occupying the Canary Is in the event of Spain joining the Axis while such forcing of Vichy's hands is likely to mean more French colonies defect to the Free French quicker.
An invasion through Turkey is possible but the Turks are likely to put up fierce resistance and the terrain and logistics are very bad, especially in eastern Turkey. Its possible but then they would have to project power into the Levant area where Britain would have much shorted and more capable supply lines as their likely to occupy Vichy Syria. Also its unlikely to give a clear victory in time to make Barbarossa practical in 1941. Plus I don't expect Stalin would welcome such a German action as it would mean they gain control of the Turkish straits and advancing further eastward poses a threat to Baku and its vital oil. This could prompt a Soviet intervention which could threaten the flank of any German attack into say Syria.
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Post by Max Sinister on May 4, 2024 0:06:29 GMT
That's all true stevep, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 4, 2024 8:54:49 GMT
That's all true stevep , but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic.
Sorry I drifted in responding to the points 575 raised. Not sure how Hitler would respond in the situation proposed.
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