mrsticka
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Post by mrsticka on Dec 19, 2023 8:42:29 GMT
I'm sure a lot of us wonder what if 9/11 never happened? So here's how I see things unfolding:
September 11th, 2001:
-There are no planes hijacked that morning. So they don't crash into the World Trade Center in New York or the Pentagon in Washington, DC. And there is no 4th plane that crashes in Pennsylvania. Instead, those planes arrive at their intended destinations without incident.
-So the twin towers are still standing at the end of the day. Those nearly 3,000 people who were killed in the original timeline are still alive.
-President Bush doesn't give a speech from the Oval Office that night.
-There is no Patriot Act.
-There is no War on Terror either.
-The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) are never created.
-Airport security is the same as it was prior to 9/11. Passengers don't have to show ID or their boarding pass before going through security. They don't have to take off their shoes. And visitors can still pass through security and see off and meet their party at the gate.
-The US does not invade Afghanistan.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 19, 2023 11:33:38 GMT
That is a flow of events. To make it AH, it needs to have either a reason for this happening (it doesn't even have to be a timeline, but needs more than nothing) or some sort of AH Challenge, where you throw the ball into the court of other posters.
Whatiffery when removed from reason and context is fairly 'closed' as an avenue for inquiry or discussion, not to mention not being according to Lordroel's preferred style.
The topic isn't off limits or anything like that, but rather than simply reeling off a list of things that *don't* occur, think of a point of departure and then some reasoned arguments as to why that leads to the outcome of no attacks in 2001.
To really get there, one would have to go down to the path of not having an Al Qaeda at all, as their interest in such operations had been quite protracted since 1995's Oplan Bojinka.
We don't just have closed questions or lists of consequences in this subforum.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 19, 2023 12:34:51 GMT
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 19, 2023 12:40:07 GMT
I don't think it is simply a matter of knocking off UBL and everything is fine and dandy; it needs to go back a fair bit before 2001, as that TL does, but there are also plenty of problematic individuals and groups about of potential concern. One of the surprises of a large scale attack of that kind against the CONUS wasn't that it happened full stop, but that it took that long to occur. The roots of the problem run very deep.
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mrsticka
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Post by mrsticka on Dec 20, 2023 0:34:59 GMT
I was thinking that, too. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 20, 2023 0:53:37 GMT
I don't think it is simply a matter of knocking off UBL and everything is fine and dandy; it needs to go back a fair bit before 2001, as that TL does, but there are also plenty of problematic individuals and groups about of potential concern. One of the surprises of a large scale attack of that kind against the CONUS wasn't that it happened full stop, but that it took that long to occur. The roots of the problem run very deep. It doesn't but it delays the attacks somewhere later in the 2000s. However instead of the United States, Al-Qaeda attacks Moscow on September 4, 2004. The attacks are known as the 9/4 attacks which serves as this TL's 9/11 attacks. The War on Terror is more Russo-centric than the American-led campaign known in modern-day terminology. There's another TL where OBL is killed in the 1998 strikes but 9/11 still happens but on a much worse scale: Bush vs. The Axis of Evil - TLI was thinking that, too. Pop-culture and technology would take a different path for sure. There might be no Anti-War songs or emo pop-culture. American animated movies may continue well beyond 2004. |
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mrsticka
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Post by mrsticka on Dec 20, 2023 2:13:23 GMT
I don't think it is simply a matter of knocking off UBL and everything is fine and dandy; it needs to go back a fair bit before 2001, as that TL does, but there are also plenty of problematic individuals and groups about of potential concern. One of the surprises of a large scale attack of that kind against the CONUS wasn't that it happened full stop, but that it took that long to occur. The roots of the problem run very deep. It doesn't but it delays the attacks somewhere later in the 2000s. However instead of the United States, Al-Qaeda attacks Moscow on September 4, 2004. The attacks are known as the 9/4 attacks which serves as this TL's 9/11 attacks. The War on Terror is more Russo-centric than the American-led campaign known in modern-day terminology. There's another TL where OBL is killed in the 1998 strikes but 9/11 still happens but on a much worse scale: Bush vs. The Axis of Evil - TLI was thinking that, too. Pop-culture and technology would take a different path for sure. There might be no Anti-War songs or emo pop-culture. American animated movies may continue well beyond 2004. There certainly wouldn't be all this military worship and glorification at sporting events either. I know some people in the military don't like it. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 20, 2023 2:18:29 GMT
It doesn't but it delays the attacks somewhere later in the 2000s. However instead of the United States, Al-Qaeda attacks Moscow on September 4, 2004. The attacks are known as the 9/4 attacks which serves as this TL's 9/11 attacks. The War on Terror is more Russo-centric than the American-led campaign known in modern-day terminology. There's another TL where OBL is killed in the 1998 strikes but 9/11 still happens but on a much worse scale: Bush vs. The Axis of Evil - TLPop-culture and technology would take a different path for sure. There might be no Anti-War songs or emo pop-culture. American animated movies may continue well beyond 2004. There certainly wouldn't be all this military worship and glorification at sporting events either. I know some people in the military don't like it. Pat Tillman would still be alive right now. He would be playing in football rather than serving in the military. That also changes the patch of FPS games such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and Battlefield. Instead of the U.S. military being placed in a random typical Middle Eastern country, it would probably be like Splinter Cell or SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs. The latter game also became famous in the 2000s. There would still be military toys but it won't be as famous as OTL. Lastly, it would butterfly the Islamophobia levels and hate attacks against anyone brown or with names that are hard to pronounce. |
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mrsticka
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Post by mrsticka on Dec 20, 2023 2:59:17 GMT
There certainly wouldn't be all this military worship and glorification at sporting events either. I know some people in the military don't like it. Pat Tillman would still be alive right now. He would be playing in football rather than serving in the military. That also changes the patch of FPS games such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and Battlefield. Instead of the U.S. military being placed in a random typical Middle Eastern country, it would probably be like Splinter Cell or SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs. The latter game also became famous in the 2000s. There would still be military toys but it won't be as famous as OTL. Lastly, it would butterfly the Islamophobia levels and hate attacks against anyone brown or with names that are hard to pronounce. What do you mean "butterfly"? |
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gillan1220
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I've been depressed recently. Slow replies coming in the next few days.
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 20, 2023 3:02:04 GMT
Pat Tillman would still be alive right now. He would be playing in football rather than serving in the military. That also changes the patch of FPS games such as Call of Duty: Modern Warfare and Battlefield. Instead of the U.S. military being placed in a random typical Middle Eastern country, it would probably be like Splinter Cell or SOCOM: U.S. Navy SEALs. The latter game also became famous in the 2000s. There would still be military toys but it won't be as famous as OTL. Lastly, it would butterfly the Islamophobia levels and hate attacks against anyone brown or with names that are hard to pronounce. What do you mean "butterfly"? Butterfly from the meaning of the Butterfly Effect. When a butterfly flaps its wings, it causes chaos to one side of the world. Cause and effect basically. By butterfly, meaning it prevents it from happening. Islamophobia would not have reached intense levels as today. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 20, 2023 3:49:16 GMT
I don't think it is simply a matter of knocking off UBL and everything is fine and dandy; it needs to go back a fair bit before 2001, as that TL does, but there are also plenty of problematic individuals and groups about of potential concern. One of the surprises of a large scale attack of that kind against the CONUS wasn't that it happened full stop, but that it took that long to occur. The roots of the problem run very deep. It doesn't but it delays the attacks somewhere later in the 2000s. However instead of the United States, Al-Qaeda attacks Moscow on September 4, 2004. The attacks are known as the 9/4 attacks which serves as this TL's 9/11 attacks. The War on Terror is more Russo-centric than the American-led campaign known in modern-day terminology. There's another TL where OBL is killed in the 1998 strikes but 9/11 still happens but on a much worse scale: Bush vs. The Axis of Evil - TLI don't really give much thoughts to assorted threads on AH.com, which can be of varying quality and quite often cater to the style/culture of that forum. Thus, it isn't relevant what other threads are on different forums, unless you are going to relate them to the topic here. Take one topic at a time and answer it as fulsomely as possible is the approach I'd recommend, rather than chiming in with a description of what someone else, somewhere else, has created on a vaguely similar topic. That is simply being a search engine rather than getting into the meat of the issue. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 20, 2023 4:45:16 GMT
It doesn't but it delays the attacks somewhere later in the 2000s. However instead of the United States, Al-Qaeda attacks Moscow on September 4, 2004. The attacks are known as the 9/4 attacks which serves as this TL's 9/11 attacks. The War on Terror is more Russo-centric than the American-led campaign known in modern-day terminology. There's another TL where OBL is killed in the 1998 strikes but 9/11 still happens but on a much worse scale: Bush vs. The Axis of Evil - TLI don't really give much thoughts to assorted threads on AH.com, which can be of varying quality and quite often cater to the style/culture of that forum. Thus, it isn't relevant what other threads are on different forums, unless you are going to relate them to the topic here. Take one topic at a time and answer it as fulsomely as possible is the approach I'd recommend, rather than chiming in with a description of what someone else, somewhere else, has created on a vaguely similar topic. That is simply being a search engine rather than getting into the meat of the issue. |
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