stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 24, 2024 13:08:48 GMT
Interesting. I wonder if this hostility towards the US would mean measures post-war against them as they would be seen as clearly anti-American and a potential 5th column? Could you see a tendency for the more extreme to seek to move to Italy/Libya?
It could probably mean no relaxation of pressure on the Italian criminal elements that occurred OTL to get them and the people they could influence on side?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 24, 2024 13:13:12 GMT
OK, frankly, this thread is getting too far off-topic.
In one way no because the nature of the war and the peace 'settlement' will have a big impact on feeling and politics in the US after the war. However its definitely hogging the discussion and getting relatively pointless because the two sides are a considerable distance apart and look unlikely to agree on the key issues. Probably best if you as the creator of the thread decide in terms of how it affects the post-war situation.
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Post by Max Sinister on Aug 24, 2024 21:28:22 GMT
Interesting. I wonder if this hostility towards the US would mean measures post-war against them as they would be seen as clearly anti-American and a potential 5th column? Could you see a tendency for the more extreme to seek to move to Italy/Libya?
It could probably mean no relaxation of pressure on the Italian criminal elements that occurred OTL to get them and the people they could influence on side?
I can imagine that the post-war US will be pretty paranoid. Just as they were about the Commies (who are still there!) during McCarthy.
Mussolini indeed encouraged Italo-Americans to return to the home country after the Great depression struck. Some actually did. Regarding the Nazis, I guess they will be split as they were that often: Some will say "encourage German-Americans to return to the Heimat, we need settlers for the East" (those who do will feature in propaganda), but others will say "No, they should stay there and help us to gain influence".
That's also an important question to answer: How will the two big US parties develop? It might be possible that polarization happens. If I wanted to write a mean polemic, I might write a TL in which the Democrats under Wallace and the Republicans under someone like McCarthy radicalize and are secretly influenced by the SU/"Reich" respectively.
But in practice, I hope that saner heads will succeed. Even if they will have a hard time.
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Post by Max Sinister on Sept 11, 2024 4:28:03 GMT
One thing is for sure: No matter how much fiction like TMITHC claims it, there wouldn't be many Americans truly supporting the US becoming a Nazi satellite. Their population was still higher than that of the Reich and whatnot. Especially if they're overly proud of anything American.
(That's what I dislike most about TMITHC - besides the obvious, the genocide of many millions: Pretty much everyone in the US seems to have surrendered in the face of what they must have perceived as Nazi awesomeness. WTH? That's the only way to explain how the world of TMITHC is possible.)
True: There were many antisemites, white racists, expansionists, ultraconservatives, anticommunists, and people with authoritarian streaks in the US. But real nazi satellites? I can't see the likes of MacArthur, Patton, even McCarthy doing that. The rightist equivalent of "useful idiots" - yes. But no more. That's an idea for the fringe's fringe, for fifth-grade people at best.
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Post by Max Sinister on Sept 14, 2024 1:49:14 GMT
Some other important points: - If we are currently somewhat confused about what people would do next in such a TL, it's because the leaders ITTL will be somewhat confused as well. Just like many people IOTL (esp. those who were older than 50 then) were when the Soviet Union broke down. Hell, even the term "Soviet Union" became superfluous.
- In the legendary DoD, relationships between the blocks are so bad that Australians aren't able to go to the *USA anymore. That'd be worse than US-Soviet relations ITTL... I wonder whether this might happen here as well.
- The situation in the US (which is this topic after all) would remind a bit of Vietnam, being their worst defeat so far (even if many will claim "That was no defeat! It was a draw!"). OTOH, it would be very different in so far as the problem wouldn't be exactly that the other side would be seen as the moral side, on the contrary. But some people might find that the Nazis were very competent winning a war.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 14, 2024 8:39:06 GMT
Some other important points: - If we are currently somewhat confused about what people would do next in such a TL, it's because the leaders ITTL will be somewhat confused as well. Just like many people IOTL (esp. those who were older than 50 then) were when the Soviet Union broke down. Hell, even the term "Soviet Union" became superfluous.
- In the legendary DoD, relationships between the blocks are so bad that Australians aren't able to go to the *USA anymore. That'd be worse than US-Soviet relations ITTL... I wonder whether this might happen here as well.
- The situation in the US (which is this topic after all) would remind a bit of Vietnam, being their worst defeat so far (even if many will claim "That was no defeat! It was a draw!"). OTOH, it would be very different in so far as the problem wouldn't be exactly that the other side would be seen as the moral side, on the contrary. But some people might find that the Nazis were very competent winning a war.
The question is because the Germans are still the great threat to the US would that prompt the Americans to copy them or reject them when it comes to things like social policy and political rights? If your setting up another power as the great enemy its difficult to persuade your people that you should emulate them. Otherwise why be opposed to them at all?
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Post by Max Sinister on Sept 14, 2024 13:58:11 GMT
Some other important points: - If we are currently somewhat confused about what people would do next in such a TL, it's because the leaders ITTL will be somewhat confused as well. Just like many people IOTL (esp. those who were older than 50 then) were when the Soviet Union broke down. Hell, even the term "Soviet Union" became superfluous.
- In the legendary DoD, relationships between the blocks are so bad that Australians aren't able to go to the *USA anymore. That'd be worse than US-Soviet relations ITTL... I wonder whether this might happen here as well.
- The situation in the US (which is this topic after all) would remind a bit of Vietnam, being their worst defeat so far (even if many will claim "That was no defeat! It was a draw!"). OTOH, it would be very different in so far as the problem wouldn't be exactly that the other side would be seen as the moral side, on the contrary. But some people might find that the Nazis were very competent winning a war.
The question is because the Germans are still the great threat to the US would that prompt the Americans to copy them or reject them when it comes to things like social policy and political rights? If your setting up another power as the great enemy its difficult to persuade your people that you should emulate them. Otherwise why be opposed to them at all?
OK, I have to specify: Copy their tech and organisation, not the ideology. There may be some people who think that they also should do the latter, though. And ally with the Nazis against the Soviets, who are still around after all.
As said, this Cold War will feel a bit like a Mexican standoff.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 14, 2024 22:00:26 GMT
The question is because the Germans are still the great threat to the US would that prompt the Americans to copy them or reject them when it comes to things like social policy and political rights? If your setting up another power as the great enemy its difficult to persuade your people that you should emulate them. Otherwise why be opposed to them at all?
OK, I have to specify: Copy their tech and organisation, not the ideology. There may be some people who think that they also should do the latter, though. And ally with the Nazis against the Soviets, who are still around after all.
As said, this Cold War will feel a bit like a Mexican standoff.
Definitely be interested in their technology, although in the longer run unless they totally screw things up the US will be in a much better position that the Nazis. Some aspects of organisation possibly, on the tactical level say but they would be stupid to do something like adopt the ideas of a centralized system, let alone one strong 'leader' who can overrun any objections, although that is likely to be proposed by some.
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ewellholmes
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Post by ewellholmes on Sept 22, 2024 20:45:03 GMT
American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723:
Further:
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 22, 2024 21:31:17 GMT
American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723: Further:
So there were fringe groups that put their hatred of Roosevelt and the New Deal ahead of the needs of the US and thought they could get a balanced peace with Hitler. We know the latter was definitely delusional.
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ewellholmes
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Post by ewellholmes on Sept 22, 2024 21:48:45 GMT
American Popular Opinion and the War Against Germany: The Issue of Negotiated Peace, 1942 by Richard W. Steele,The Journal of American History , Dec., 1978, Vol. 65, No. 3 (Dec., 1978), pp. 704-723: Further:
So there were fringe groups that put their hatred of Roosevelt and the New Deal ahead of the needs of the US and thought they could get a balanced peace with Hitler. We know the latter was definitely delusional.
How exactly they will evolve politically is definitely something to consider; a shift of just 2.1% is enough to get Dewey a win in 1944 after all.
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Post by stevep on Sept 23, 2024 9:32:43 GMT
So there were fringe groups that put their hatred of Roosevelt and the New Deal ahead of the needs of the US and thought they could get a balanced peace with Hitler. We know the latter was definitely delusional.
How exactly they will evolve politically is definitely something to consider; a shift of just 2.1% is enough to get Dewey a win in 1944 after all.
Which is in late 44 - or early 45 when the Republican candidate takes power by which time Japan is on its last legs and Germany has either persuaded the US to make peace or is starting to suffer badly. Plus that assumes that the Republican candidate is in favour of appeasement and would depend on the circumstances of the war at the time.
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ewellholmes
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Post by ewellholmes on Sept 23, 2024 22:19:27 GMT
How exactly they will evolve politically is definitely something to consider; a shift of just 2.1% is enough to get Dewey a win in 1944 after all.
Which is in late 44 - or early 45 when the Republican candidate takes power by which time Japan is on its last legs and Germany has either persuaded the US to make peace or is starting to suffer badly. Plus that assumes that the Republican candidate is in favour of appeasement and would depend on the circumstances of the war at the time.
U.S. war planning in the event the USSR was knocked out was to make peace with Germany, so I agree the war will be over before the 1944 election. What's interesting with this is that Thomas Dewey was indeed the 1944 GOP nominee and FDR's domestic intelligence apparatus was saying some of his backers supported a peace program and business deals with Germany. That has a lot of implications, especially given the status of German-American and Italian-American political blocs in this era.
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Post by stevep on Sept 24, 2024 10:38:21 GMT
Which is in late 44 - or early 45 when the Republican candidate takes power by which time Japan is on its last legs and Germany has either persuaded the US to make peace or is starting to suffer badly. Plus that assumes that the Republican candidate is in favour of appeasement and would depend on the circumstances of the war at the time.
U.S. war planning in the event the USSR was knocked out was to make peace with Germany, so I agree the war will be over before the 1944 election. What's interesting with this is that Thomas Dewey was indeed the 1944 GOP nominee and FDR's domestic intelligence apparatus was saying some of his backers supported a peace program and business deals with Germany. That has a lot of implications, especially given the status of German-American and Italian-American political blocs in this era.
I said if because things could change but assuming Dewey was the Republican candidate he was actually an interventionist himself. Even so he lost by 8% of the vote polling "45.9% of the popular vote compared to Roosevelt's 53.4%".
The US might have had some plans for a settlement with Germany if the USSR was knocked out but they would have been among a wide range of plans. Furthermore even with the assumptions your making for the Germans being in about 3 places at the same time the Soviets are gravely weakened but not totally defeated.
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ewellholmes
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Post by ewellholmes on Sept 24, 2024 21:34:18 GMT
I said if because things could change but assuming Dewey was the Republican candidate he was actually an interventionist himself. Even so he lost by 8% of the vote polling "45.9% of the popular vote compared to Roosevelt's 53.4%". Popular vote percentages don't decide elections in the United States, the Electoral college does. A shift of 2.5% (Not 2.1%, was wrong on the exact amount) would've resulted in this map: Popular vote percentage would be 50.9% for FDR and 48.4% for the record. As for Dewey, I think it's important to note that his interventionist bonafides are inflated:His later shift to interventionism was mostly for electoral effect.
Steve, I would rather not re-litigate an argument we already agreed to disagree on in this thread. Let’s stick to this thread's topic?
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