575
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Post by 575 on Jul 9, 2024 17:54:44 GMT
The Chinese had begun questioning the deliveries of arms especially none of Tanks which the WAllies apparently limited for own use. The Cninese argued that they well knew how to use Tanks as they prior to the War in Europe had been importing some German light Tanks and had used these successfully against the Japanese. Being the gunfodder was all well as long as they were liberating own territory from the Japanese but being held in that position was annoying. The Chinese wanted to be part of the eviction from their territories of the IJA. Such supply would also enable the Chinese to once hostilities had ended as the WAllies did in Europe face the Soviets! Following some back and forth internally the WAllied decided to pick up a number of German Tanks that was still serviceable and move these to China – at least the design wouldn't be too alien then. Both WAllied Armies had run tests of these machines to explore what parts would be worth copying and still held a reserve of them in Germany and at home for further tests and possibly use by the ? - if need be. As the Czechs already had revisited some of their pre-war designs for updating from war-time experience and had become suppliers to Poland, Romania and Austria the need for the German remains was deemed not around and the Tanks exported to China via Hong Kong. Both WAllies used the opportunity to clear house of dated Tanks and shipped these to China too.
It would still be some months before equipment being in place and training carried through but the Chinese still were able to sort out their former tankers to fill out a Brigade or two.
Probably a good move although both powers might at a later stage seek to supply some of their own designs to China. It would provide the basis for future sales and engender some good will. Plus the Chinese are making a good point, as well as thinking big in terms of deterring the Soviets.
If they don't make commitments to supply some of their own other countries, including the US and the Czechs might well be eager to step in.
Absolutely - as stuff is getting older such will happen.
The Czechs I guess is busy designing and building their own new Tanks and selling off the well proven Pz35 and Pz38 to buyers. The US is only getting into the game regarding Tanks which haven't been proven in actual combat.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 9, 2024 17:55:30 GMT
Soviet Intelligence Briefing – the Kremlin early December 1942 Stalin was still getting information on the Japanese from the spy-network there. The end of IJN and IJA to continue fighting was near as even with rationing and most of IJN heavy units sunk or still in repair even that pool of oil was shrinking with domestic production no where near fullfilling needs. The latest WAllied offensive in China had showed that IJA had little ability to fuel movement of reserves except on train or by foot. Part of the Kwantung Army had been railed south but had been caught up in fighting Communist Partisans and the advancing WAllies in Shansi Province.
IJN building projects had stalled due to lack of fuel for the furnaces to make steel which was also impeding the continued production of aircraft for both services. Demand had reached a level industrial production couldn't supply.
Not just oil but also metals as IJN had continued building Battleships robbing themselves of metals needed for other more rewarding and needed builds such as AT-guns and Trucks. The IJA had personnel throwing themselves at WAllied Tanks with explosives tied to their body to take them out due to the lack of 75mm+ AT-guns.
The Japanese was also losing ships faster than shipyards could produce but that problem was of lesser importance as a lot of Japanese shipping had been moored at quay's for some months due to lack of oil though production of steamengines had begun to propel merchantmen with coal which was in abundance. Japan had tried to build plants for synthetic oil from coal but didn't have the knowledge or means to do this on a real needed industrial scale.
As a result the population of Taiwan was on the brink of starvation as items had to be moved by musclepower be it animal or human as a lot of the railway infrastructure had been destoyed by the WAllied bombings.
IJN was about to take into commission three new Light Carriers rebuild from liners and other merchantmen though two more was worked on but had stalled. With the arrival more WAllied Aircraft Carriers and these larger than previously the IJN was being desparate.
The WAllies had been able to up their industry with France no longer reliant on imports of Aircraft from the USA though it still had a large Truck import. British shipbuilders was turning out Aircraft Carriers and Battleships at a rate not expected. The major import of the WAllies was oil from the USA though that was countered by export of rubber from British Far East and NEI to the USA. France was heavily involved in rebuilding Poland actually surpassing the Soviet rebuilding of acquired Polish areas.
The majority of WAllied Armies had been demobilized as the need in the Far East being much lower than what had been mobilized to defeat Nazi-Germany. The French were back to their usual 24 Infantry Divisions including the Motorized seven in France, 5 in FNA and 4 Colonial. However at least 1 Division in FIC had been a new raised Senegalese and 1 a Foreign Legion so figures couldn't be relied on though it seemed the 55 Reserve Infantry Divisions in France had been demobilized. Most of the 7 Armoured Divisions seemed to have been retained though with reduced personnel and 1½ had been deployed to FIC – now in China. 9 Infantry Divisions in FIC/China of which 3 were raised in FIC.
The British had also demobilized though had 2 Armoured and 5 Infantry Divisions in FIC/China/Malaya but also 8 Commonwealth and Indian Infantry. It was estimated that 1 Armoured and 2 Infantry Divisions of the British were in fact from the Army in India. There was still the NZ Division in Borneo and a British in Malaya though the exact identity of the British units were difficult to assess as there as mentioned was British Divisions in India as well as in Britain and in other Colonies as well.
Basically the WAllied European forces were estimated at pre-war figures though the Navies and Airforces had been much enlarged. Both Nations were still building Battleships though the RN seemed to be placing less interest in these and prioritizing Aircraft Carriers.
The French Navy building had taken up steam following the end of War in Europe with return of skilled workers to shipbuilders. There had been some unrest in both nations as the large number of females employed in industry during the War had been sent back to the kitchen. This had been most so in France where women had made large demonstrations which the French Communist Party had tried to infiltrate but had been rebuffed – it being a gender not a political struggle.
At the end of the intelligence resume an aide approached Stalin – Molotov had been receiving a diplomatic note from Imperial Japan asking for the Soviet Union to call a peaceconference in Vladivostok of Imperial Japan, Britain, France, Netherlands, China and Manchuria for negotiating an end to the war in the Far East. Stalin grabbed something heavy and threw it through the room!
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 10, 2024 9:43:06 GMT
The end is near! Though first peace negotiations:
December 1942 – the Boys will be home by Christmas. Britain, France and China had agreed that Manchuria wouldn't be an independent participant to the peace talks. Italy's case wouldn't be furthered by Britain or France – China however felt indebted to Italy and advocated its participation. Stalin had instructed Molotov to allow Italy to participate if only to sow dissent among the Europeans.
Japan opened by issueing a statement that called for a cease-fire and retreat of Japanese Armed forces to the 1932 borders. Italy supported this.
China called for use of the 1905 borders without outsiders spheres of interest on Chinese territory which was supported by Britain, France and Netherlands.
The Soviet Union decided that it supported the 1905 borders would be the starting point for talks. At this Italy changed its support for 1932 borders.
***
Basically the WAllies have been at shooting war since October 1939 - they want to wrap stuff up and rest on the laurels of victory. China just wants the Japanese out and regain as much territory as possible from the 1895 treaty. Italy - well? Reparations. Dutch - reparations. Soviet Union - rid of an annoying neighbour but also retain somebody else to keep China in check. Japan - keep Manchuria and as much of the 1905/1895 by treaties awarded territories including the Chinese 1895 ceding of sovereignty of Korea and subsequent by 1910 incorporation/colonization of Korea.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 10, 2024 15:34:01 GMT
The end is near! Though first peace negotiations: December 1942 – the Boys will be home by Christmas. Britain, France and China had agreed that Manchuria wouldn't be an independent participant to the peace talks. Italy's case wouldn't be furthered by Britain or France – China however felt indebted to Italy and advocated its participation. Stalin had instructed Molotov to allow Italy to participate if only to sow dissent among the Europeans. Japan opened by issueing a statement that called for a cease-fire and retreat of Japanese Armed forces to the 1932 borders. Italy supported this. China called for use of the 1905 borders without outsiders spheres of interest on Chinese territory which was supported by Britain, France and Netherlands. The Soviet Union decided that it supported the 1905 borders would be the starting point for talks. At this Italy changed its support for 1932 borders. *** Basically the WAllies have been at shooting war since October 1939 - they want to wrap stuff up and rest on the laurels of victory. China just wants the Japanese out and regain as much territory as possible from the 1895 treaty. Italy - well? Reparations. Dutch - reparations. Soviet Union - rid of an annoying neighbour but also retain somebody else to keep China in check. Japan - keep Manchuria and as much of the 1905/1895 by treaties awarded territories including the Chinese 1895 ceding of sovereignty of Korea and subsequent by 1910 incorporation/colonization of Korea.
One question with this is what is the status of Korea? Although Japanese control of it was strengthened by the victory over Russia in 1904/05 it wasn't formally annexed to Japan until 1910. I suspect not but is China claiming to still have Korea as a tributary state? Possibly also the status of Tibet here?
Also in terms of the Soviet response are they seeking to keep Manchuria in Japanese hands?
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 11, 2024 9:20:18 GMT
The end is near! Though first peace negotiations: December 1942 – the Boys will be home by Christmas. Britain, France and China had agreed that Manchuria wouldn't be an independent participant to the peace talks. Italy's case wouldn't be furthered by Britain or France – China however felt indebted to Italy and advocated its participation. Stalin had instructed Molotov to allow Italy to participate if only to sow dissent among the Europeans. Japan opened by issueing a statement that called for a cease-fire and retreat of Japanese Armed forces to the 1932 borders. Italy supported this. China called for use of the 1905 borders without outsiders spheres of interest on Chinese territory which was supported by Britain, France and Netherlands. The Soviet Union decided that it supported the 1905 borders would be the starting point for talks. At this Italy changed its support for 1932 borders. *** Basically the WAllies have been at shooting war since October 1939 - they want to wrap stuff up and rest on the laurels of victory. China just wants the Japanese out and regain as much territory as possible from the 1895 treaty. Italy - well? Reparations. Dutch - reparations. Soviet Union - rid of an annoying neighbour but also retain somebody else to keep China in check. Japan - keep Manchuria and as much of the 1905/1895 by treaties awarded territories including the Chinese 1895 ceding of sovereignty of Korea and subsequent by 1910 incorporation/colonization of Korea.
One question with this is what is the status of Korea? Although Japanese control of it was strengthened by the victory over Russia in 1904/05 it wasn't formally annexed to Japan until 1910. I suspect not but is China claiming to still have Korea as a tributary state? Possibly also the status of Tibet here?
Also in terms of the Soviet response are they seeking to keep Manchuria in Japanese hands?
Korea - tricky one isn't it? I would expect the idea of tributary states being outdated mainly because both Netherlands and Portugal had to pay such during 18-cent. to the Chinese Emperor and the English ambassador refused to kow-tow. I think the British and French would be sesitive to it because their colonies in East Asia had been clients of Imperial China too and how far back in history should one go? Look up stuff and found this paper. If China demand an independent Korea it may backfire on the Colonials - British, French and Dutch. With unrest in their colonies brewing better let a sleeping dog lie! There might not be a will to part this from the Japanese except should talks breakdown - which given Japanese/IJA outlook they well might. Just realized that 1895 Treaty of Shimosheki opens another can of worms - Port Arthur!
Not just Tibet but also Sinkiang Province! The former a not apparently inclusive in KMT/Chiang thinking though he did talk about lands east of the Pamir Plateau which would include Tibet but not specifically so and the British won't like it, the latter absolutely so. Britain want an independent Tibet I expect agree to the second as China had fought the Soviet attempts at taking it over since the Russian Revolution.
The Soviets are not seeking a Japanese Manchuria - China have to have a way of repaying Soviet aid during the war years.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 11, 2024 17:19:35 GMT
One question with this is what is the status of Korea? Although Japanese control of it was strengthened by the victory over Russia in 1904/05 it wasn't formally annexed to Japan until 1910. I suspect not but is China claiming to still have Korea as a tributary state? Possibly also the status of Tibet here?
Also in terms of the Soviet response are they seeking to keep Manchuria in Japanese hands?
Korea - tricky one isn't it? I would expect the idea of tributary states being outdated mainly because both Netherlands and Portugal had to pay such during 18-cent. to the Chinese Emperor and the English ambassador refused to kow-tow. I think the British and French would be sesitive to it because their colonies in East Asia had been clients of Imperial China too and how far back in history should one go? Look up stuff and found this paper. If China demand an independent Korea it may backfire on the Colonials - British, French and Dutch. With unrest in their colonies brewing better let a sleeping dog lie! There might not be a will to part this from the Japanese except should talks breakdown - which given Japanese/IJA outlook they well might. Just realized that 1895 Treaty of Shimosheki opens another can of worms - Port Arthur!
Not just Tibet but also Sinkiang Province! The former a not apparently inclusive in KMT/Chiang thinking though he did talk about lands east of the Pamir Plateau which would include Tibet but not specifically so and the British won't like it, the latter absolutely so. Britain want an independent Tibet I expect agree to the second as China had fought the Soviet attempts at taking it over since the Russian Revolution.
The Soviets are not seeking a Japanese Manchuria - China have to have a way of repaying Soviet aid during the war years.
Interesting article thanks. Given what it says about Chiang I doubt he would really recognise Korean independence unless the only alternative was it staying under Japanese rule. However he might play lip service to it with an hope to exert pressure at a later date.
In terms of my question about Soviet aims for Manchuria was because of where you said
That sounded to me like Stalin wanted a medium strength Japan as a counter to a nationalist China - which as the article you linked to had claims on many areas outside its actual borders, including vast areas inside the USSR. At the same time it didn't fit with the "get rid of an annoying neighbour" so I wasn't sure what you intended.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 11, 2024 19:10:55 GMT
Korea - tricky one isn't it? I would expect the idea of tributary states being outdated mainly because both Netherlands and Portugal had to pay such during 18-cent. to the Chinese Emperor and the English ambassador refused to kow-tow. I think the British and French would be sesitive to it because their colonies in East Asia had been clients of Imperial China too and how far back in history should one go? Look up stuff and found this paper. If China demand an independent Korea it may backfire on the Colonials - British, French and Dutch. With unrest in their colonies brewing better let a sleeping dog lie! There might not be a will to part this from the Japanese except should talks breakdown - which given Japanese/IJA outlook they well might. Just realized that 1895 Treaty of Shimosheki opens another can of worms - Port Arthur!
Not just Tibet but also Sinkiang Province! The former a not apparently inclusive in KMT/Chiang thinking though he did talk about lands east of the Pamir Plateau which would include Tibet but not specifically so and the British won't like it, the latter absolutely so. Britain want an independent Tibet I expect agree to the second as China had fought the Soviet attempts at taking it over since the Russian Revolution.
The Soviets are not seeking a Japanese Manchuria - China have to have a way of repaying Soviet aid during the war years.
Interesting article thanks. Given what it says about Chiang I doubt he would really recognise Korean independence unless the only alternative was it staying under Japanese rule. However he might play lip service to it with an hope to exert pressure at a later date.
In terms of my question about Soviet aims for Manchuria was because of where you said
That sounded to me like Stalin wanted a medium strength Japan as a counter to a nationalist China - which as the article you linked to had claims on many areas outside its actual borders, including vast areas inside the USSR. At the same time it didn't fit with the "get rid of an annoying neighbour" so I wasn't sure what you intended.
Sorry being not too clear on this - meant that Stalin wants a counterweigh to China which it have lost in Europe with total defeat of Nazi-Germany. Always nice to have two parties to play against each other. However not having Japan directly on the doorstep but it having to move through Chinese Manchuria if it should want to attack Vladivostok as the IJN isn't much of a threat any longer.
OTL Stalin tried getting his hands on Port Arthur - Darien - Liaotung Peninsular.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 12, 2024 8:21:16 GMT
Behind the scenes December 1942 Britain informed the Chinese that they didn't want a Chinese Tibet – as Chaing had shown himself willing to let the Soviets keep the Pamir he might as well let Tibet stay independent. Chaing agreed though only vis-a-vis Britain but still thought of Tibet as part of China. Chaing would have liked a independent Korea as a buffer with Japan but the Soviets seemed to prefer differently and neighter Britain, France or Netherlands being against it. Britain and France wanted to trade with him – Britain the most – but not include security guarantees outside 1895 borders. He didn't like to open the case with the Press as Historians would be asked of their impression of China's historic relations with its neigbours during the past and he didn't want that to surface in Europe and it would only fuel Stalins possible want of Manchuria or at least Liaochung Peninsular and Port Arthur. Shelve that issue. He tried to reason with the British and French – Japanese bushido wasn't dead it was very much alive with the rulers and round 2 could be round the corner once Japan had gotten the lost men replaced. Even if it take twenty years they'll come back.
One of the Chinese rebuild Tank brigades had already been sent into Sinkiang Province to send a clear signal to Moscow.
The Japanese having submitted themselves to negotiations began feeling uneasy – still no cease fire only preliminary talks on organizing the next round of talks at continued envoy level in Moscow. The Soviets certainly feeling no sympathy of their cause. Still no imports of oil and metals – works on IJN rebuilds and repairs as well as finishing Musashi and super Carrier Shinano delayed ad infinitum. Battleship Yamato kept in Inner Sea to preserve it as WAllied Submarines still were very active against shipping in the Japanese and Yeallow Seas. Thus the Armies in China, Manchuria and Korea were steadily going downhill. Shenyang Arsenal still manufacturing ammunition though new builds almost not an option with the lack of material needed and those available used for the ammo casings. Aircraft production almost stopped with production turned to spareparts to keep those still in Japan flying and ferry the most necessary to Korea and Taiwan with the Taiwan route down the Ryu-Kyu's still being watched by the WAllied Carrier Groups.
Even if unsympathic to their cause Molotov had in a Soviet – Japanese only meeting outlined that Japan could retain Korea and Taiwan. He also expressed that the WAllies wasn't adverse to this. The Dutch and Italians were but bystanders to the arrival of Circus. China would be accepting it – they needed peace. No further explanations. The Japanese guessed the Soviet – China issues on Sinkiang, Liaochung Peninsular and Northeast Railway in Manchuria was enough of a deterrent to keep China in reins certainly so once the WAllies had left the mainland.
As far as the IJA suspected the WAllies hadn't initiated any new offensives directed at Beijing and into Manchuria – not because they didn't want to offend the Soviets - they kept them at arms length in Europe - but because they had no interests there.
Japan had informed Molotov that they was ready to agree to 1905 borders with 1895 changes as foundation well knowing that Liaochung Peninsular lease transferred by Imperial Russia 1905 to Japan had ended 1923. Originally Japan had acquired the area from Qing Empire 1895 as part of the Treaty of Shimosheki which Imperial Japan would consider part of the basis for further talks. Also Japan was ready to begin discussing a peace treaty though only if hostilities would cease. Japanese merchantmen should as part of a cease-fire be allowed to sail unimpeded and Japanese imports resumed.
Molotov would take the Japanese wantings to the next meeting within the week. At this the Japanese envoy screamed - ”You are deceiving us”, at which Molotov only smiled and left.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 14, 2024 9:25:29 GMT
Second round of peace talks, Moscow late December 1942 Molotov opened the meeting declaring that Imperial Japan had agreed to 1905 borders of China with 1895 changes and agreements as the framework for further talks. Molotov also informed that Imperial Japan was asking for a cease-fire upon Status quo with free passage of its Merchantmen on seas and Japan allowed imports though depending upon bi-lateral agreements.
The Chinese envoy was fuming as he very much understood the Japanese move – Port Arthur Japanese for perpetuity! Laiochung Peninsular a neutral zone. A cease-fire and withdrawal to 1932 lines could be discussed. The Port Arthur and Laiochung Peninsular lease and neutral zone had ended with the transfer of said lease to Imperial Russain and as such had been transferred to Japan 1905 so in that respect the lease had expired 1923 and could not be a basis for Japanese territorial claim.
Britain and France as well as the Netherlands were frantically reading through the Treaty of Shimoseki for the particulars and decided that the Port Arthur lease and Laiochung Peninsular neutral zone be excluded from negotiable issues as following events had changed the foundation of the lease to a 25 year limited starting 1898 ending 1923 and thus no longer in effect.
Italy was of the opinion that the 1895 Treaty of Shimoseki superceded later technicalities. Japan was most thankful of this.
Regarding a cease-fire the Chinese and WAllies were ready to discuss such with the provisions that all Japanese internment camps on Chinese territory be opened all inmates of such be released. British, French, Dutch, Italian and other European, North American, Australian and New Zealand subjects held in such camps be handed over to the WAllied Forces in China.
Japan eagerly agreed to these terms though the Chinese objected that Chinese interred should be allowed to go to unoccupied areas – to which the Japanese argued that might not happen as the peoples would most probably be locals. With China insisting Japan agreed.
No shipping would be allowed outside IJA controlled ports and waters which would be interpreted by the WAllied powers. As such it would be limited to within the normal 3 mile line of territorial waters. Thus shipping would be permitted from ports of IJA control in Fukien Province to Taiwan and from Kiangsu Province south of WAllied presence on the Coast south of Shantung Peninsular across the bay from the point at Lienyunkong in south to the point to the north in Shantung Peninsular – map delivered. This specific corridor would be guarded by WAllied Navy forces and ANY deviation subject to interception and sinking as a violation of cease-fire clauses.
Regarding the IJA troops in the Hankow pocket in central China a road would be designated on which said troop would be allowed to move on foot to Kiangsu Province area held by IJA. No materiel except for first aid to be carried or moved on carts or draught animal powered wagons would be allowed transfer and any breach of these stipulations would be viewed as a breach of the cease-fire clauses and the movement would be stopped. Such retreating soldiers would be allowed to carry their own weapon only.
The Japanese envoy related the cease-fire conditions to Tokyo where it was recieved with rage. However Japan wasn't in a condition to keep the war going as oil reserves was close to being empty with even the huge IJN pre-war stockpile being so because of needs and rationing in the Home Islands hadn't helped much. In Japan there was dispair and anger at the cease-fire conditions and in Tokyo Adm. Yamamoto was assassinated by a young IJA Lieutenant, that then comitted seppuku, because of the admiral being a traitor to Imperial Japan. Japan having exhausted itself accepted the ceasefire conditions opening the gates of its internment camps in China and let internees walk away. Then the IJA was withdrawn to Korea and the Chinese Armies marched into Manchuria.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 14, 2024 14:54:30 GMT
Second round of peace talks, Moscow late December 1942 Molotov opened the meeting declaring that Imperial Japan had agreed to 1905 borders of China with 1895 changes and agreements as the framework for further talks. Molotov also informed that Imperial Japan was asking for a cease-fire upon Status quo with free passage of its Merchantmen on seas and Japan allowed imports though depending upon bi-lateral agreements. The Chinese envoy was fuming as he very much understood the Japanese move – Port Arthur Japanese for perpetuity! Laiochung Peninsular a neutral zone. A cease-fire and withdrawal to 1932 lines could be discussed. The Port Arthur and Laiochung Peninsular lease and neutral zone had ended with the transfer of said lease to Imperial Russain and as such had been transferred to Japan 1905 so in that respect the lease had expired 1923 and could not be a basis for Japanese territorial claim. Britain and France as well as the Netherlands were frantically reading through the Treaty of Shimoseki for the particulars and decided that the Port Arthur lease and Laiochung Peninsular neutral zone be excluded from negotiable issues as following events had changed the foundation of the lease to a 25 year limited starting 1898 ending 1923 and thus no longer in effect. Italy was of the opinion that the 1895 Treaty of Shimoseki superceded later technicalities. Japan was most thankful of this. Regarding a cease-fire the Chinese and WAllies were ready to discuss such with the provisions that all Japanese internment camps on Chinese territory be opened all inmates of such be released. British, French, Dutch, Italian and other European, North American, Australian and New Zealand subjects held in such camps be handed over to the WAllied Forces in China. Japan eagerly agreed to these terms though the Chinese objected that Chinese interred should be allowed to go to unoccupied areas – to which the Japanese argued that might not happen as the peoples would most probably be locals. With China insisting Japan agreed. No shipping would be allowed outside IJA controlled ports and waters which would be interpreted by the WAllied powers. As such it would be limited to within the normal 3 mile line of territorial waters. Thus shipping would be permitted from ports of IJA control in Fukien Province to Taiwan and from Kiangsu Province south of WAllied presence on the Coast south of Shantung Peninsular across the bay from the point at Lienyunkong in south to the point to the north in Shantung Peninsular – map delivered. This specific corridor would be guarded by WAllied Navy forces and ANY deviation subject to interception and sinking as a violation of cease-fire clauses. Regarding the IJA troops in the Hankow pocket in central China a road would be designated on which said troop would be allowed to move on foot to Kiangsu Province area held by IJA. No materiel except for first aid to be carried or moved on carts or draught animal powered wagons would be allowed transfer and any breach of these stipulations would be viewed as a breach of the cease-fire clauses and the movement would be stopped. Such retreating soldiers would be allowed to carry their own weapon only. The Japanese envoy related the cease-fire conditions to Tokyo where it was recieved with rage. However Japan wasn't in a condition to keep the war going as oil reserves was close to being empty with even the huge IJN pre-war stockpile being so because of needs and rationing in the Home Islands hadn't helped much. In Japan there was dispair and anger at the cease-fire conditions and in Tokyo Adm. Yamamoto was assassinated by a young IJA Lieutenant, that then comitted seppuku, because of the admiral being a traitor to Imperial Japan. Japan having exhausted itself accepted the ceasefire conditions opening the gates of its internment camps in China and let internees walk away. Then the IJA was withdrawn to Korea and the Chinese Armies marched into Manchuria.
I must admit I'm surprised that Japan has given up so much just for a ceasefire given how determined they were to fight to the bitter end even with many of their cities having been leveled and an invasion of the home islands looking likely soon. However they didn't have the same level of early success as OTL to boost their delusions of superiority even further. I misread it as they were conceding those territories at the final peace but China is getting Manchuria already which really makes the position of their surviving other footholds in China pretty much hopeless.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 14, 2024 15:38:12 GMT
Second round of peace talks, Moscow late December 1942 Molotov opened the meeting declaring that Imperial Japan had agreed to 1905 borders of China with 1895 changes and agreements as the framework for further talks. Molotov also informed that Imperial Japan was asking for a cease-fire upon Status quo with free passage of its Merchantmen on seas and Japan allowed imports though depending upon bi-lateral agreements. The Chinese envoy was fuming as he very much understood the Japanese move – Port Arthur Japanese for perpetuity! Laiochung Peninsular a neutral zone. A cease-fire and withdrawal to 1932 lines could be discussed. The Port Arthur and Laiochung Peninsular lease and neutral zone had ended with the transfer of said lease to Imperial Russain and as such had been transferred to Japan 1905 so in that respect the lease had expired 1923 and could not be a basis for Japanese territorial claim. Britain and France as well as the Netherlands were frantically reading through the Treaty of Shimoseki for the particulars and decided that the Port Arthur lease and Laiochung Peninsular neutral zone be excluded from negotiable issues as following events had changed the foundation of the lease to a 25 year limited starting 1898 ending 1923 and thus no longer in effect. Italy was of the opinion that the 1895 Treaty of Shimoseki superceded later technicalities. Japan was most thankful of this. Regarding a cease-fire the Chinese and WAllies were ready to discuss such with the provisions that all Japanese internment camps on Chinese territory be opened all inmates of such be released. British, French, Dutch, Italian and other European, North American, Australian and New Zealand subjects held in such camps be handed over to the WAllied Forces in China. Japan eagerly agreed to these terms though the Chinese objected that Chinese interred should be allowed to go to unoccupied areas – to which the Japanese argued that might not happen as the peoples would most probably be locals. With China insisting Japan agreed. No shipping would be allowed outside IJA controlled ports and waters which would be interpreted by the WAllied powers. As such it would be limited to within the normal 3 mile line of territorial waters. Thus shipping would be permitted from ports of IJA control in Fukien Province to Taiwan and from Kiangsu Province south of WAllied presence on the Coast south of Shantung Peninsular across the bay from the point at Lienyunkong in south to the point to the north in Shantung Peninsular – map delivered. This specific corridor would be guarded by WAllied Navy forces and ANY deviation subject to interception and sinking as a violation of cease-fire clauses. Regarding the IJA troops in the Hankow pocket in central China a road would be designated on which said troop would be allowed to move on foot to Kiangsu Province area held by IJA. No materiel except for first aid to be carried or moved on carts or draught animal powered wagons would be allowed transfer and any breach of these stipulations would be viewed as a breach of the cease-fire clauses and the movement would be stopped. Such retreating soldiers would be allowed to carry their own weapon only. The Japanese envoy related the cease-fire conditions to Tokyo where it was recieved with rage. However Japan wasn't in a condition to keep the war going as oil reserves was close to being empty with even the huge IJN pre-war stockpile being so because of needs and rationing in the Home Islands hadn't helped much. In Japan there was dispair and anger at the cease-fire conditions and in Tokyo Adm. Yamamoto was assassinated by a young IJA Lieutenant, that then comitted seppuku, because of the admiral being a traitor to Imperial Japan. Japan having exhausted itself accepted the ceasefire conditions opening the gates of its internment camps in China and let internees walk away. Then the IJA was withdrawn to Korea and the Chinese Armies marched into Manchuria.
I must admit I'm surprised that Japan has given up so much just for a ceasefire given how determined they were to fight to the bitter end even with many of their cities having been leveled and an invasion of the home islands looking likely soon. However they didn't have the same level of early success as OTL to boost their delusions of superiority even further. I misread it as they were conceding those territories at the final peace but China is getting Manchuria already which really makes the position of their surviving other footholds in China pretty much hopeless.
Basic is that Japan ITTL picked the wrong enemy for its fight; two major European powers just having finished off Nazi-Germany and then challenged was a bad choice. Not having the needed raw materials and time to do something doomed it. As the WAllies and China know Japan doesn't have the means to keep fighting and not with the OTL victory delusion the few sane heads or rather the bunch just realizing its impossibility from the outset make the decision easier.
The alternative would have been Japan leaving the IJA in China to hold the fort and then fortifying the Home Islands while being still cut off from imports and routinely bombed from the air and sea while waiting for the final outcome all while the population just starve it out. Not really something upon to build a strong nation!
Still have outlined a couple or three maybe four post's and then a rounding it out.
Could have taken the choice of writing a long winding war but probably the WAllies managed to sink Shinsu Maru without knowning what she was and even though the British had begun building landing craft prior to the war it would be a tedious long chapter with basically nothing going on than Japanese building bamboo fighters and the WAllies LCMs, LSDs (no Landing Ship Dock) etc. etc. Had it gone that way without the initial luck of the RN I would still be scratching my head of what OTL stuff not to insert for fear of being called copy-cat or unimaginative!
OTL the American's knew the British to know how to fight the War when they entered into the fray!
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 15, 2024 11:39:50 GMT
The Japanese shipping from Kiangsu Province across the bay to Shantung Province saw one merchanman evacuating troops deviating from the stipulated route being shelled by a French Cruiser and then resuming the announced route. A few incidents did take place on the evacuation route from Hankow pocket in which Chinese troops both Government and Communist – the route passed close by a Communist pocket in formerly IJA controlled area – had opened fire on retreating IJA troops mainly claiming Medic carts being used for transporting support-weapons and ammunition.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 16, 2024 16:52:42 GMT
Following the IJA withdrawal the WAllied and Chinese troops entered the vacated Chinese territory to assess damage and secure against a Communist take over in the political vacuum. Following the troops international press journalists came – the stories emanating paid a horrible image of Japans conduct of war and treatment of those interned including Europeans and North Americans. Pictures were initially to some degree censored but as the volume of horror hit the frontpages that stopped. In public opinion Japan became viewed as a pariah state and Americans regretting their country hadn't declared war upon it. Instead a new wave of anti-Japanese feelings was taken out on the small minority mainly on the US West Coast.
The Soviet Union presented China with a bill of arms and other stuff delivered since 1932 which became an object of quarrels for decades.
The Chinese Communist Party had expected to topple the KMT Government but the WAllied troops when withdrawing from China left enough warmateriel to sustain the Chinese Military for some years which made China able to finally quell the CCP uprising and get the industry of Manchuria working again though this was a rather drawn out affair lasting a year.
Britain rebuild its quarter of Shanghai and restarted the trade on the Yangtze River with inner China bringing much needed investments and funds to China. It was however now barred from maintaining an armed presence within Chinese borders as was any other nation. Along Britain the USA was swift to reenter Shanghai and Chinese trade.
The troops in the Far East was recalled for the motherlands of Britain and France. Few British and Australian troops would remain in China and also French Colonial, Foreign Legion and Senegalese troops. The populations of Britain and France had tired of the demands of prolonged war in the Far East and wanted better living conditions and lower taxes. And sons and fathers to return to families.
Though Britain had only deployed 1 Armour and 3 Infantry Divisions from Europe to the Far East during the War relying mainly on Empire troops to make up its total of 16 Divisions deployed; Government was defeated in elections following popular dissent during the War.
France had followed the like approach deploying 1½ Armour and 2 Infantry Divisions though also having 1-2 French regiments in each of the 4 Colonial and Marine Divisions deployed. The French Government managed to weather the storm though had to invest more at home as well as cut back on conscription time and numbers.
France and the Netherlands were able to hold onto their Far Eastern Colonies for quite some time before the local independence movements found sponsors.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Jul 16, 2024 19:17:19 GMT
Following the IJA withdrawal the WAllied and Chinese troops entered the vacated Chinese territory to assess damage and secure against a Communist take over in the political vacuum. Following the troops international press journalists came – the stories emanating paid a horrible image of Japans conduct of war and treatment of those interned including Europeans and North Americans. Pictures were initially to some degree censored but as the volume of horror hit the frontpages that stopped. In public opinion Japan became viewed as a pariah state and Americans regretting their country hadn't declared war upon it. Instead a new wave of anti-Japanese feelings was taken out on the small minority mainly on the US West Coast. The Soviet Union presented China with a bill of arms and other stuff delivered since 1932 which became an object of quarrels for decades. The Chinese Communist Party had expected to topple the KMT Government but the WAllied troops when withdrawing from China left enough warmateriel to sustain the Chinese Military for some years which made China able to finally quell the CCP uprising and get the industry of Manchuria working again though this was a rather drawn out affair lasting a year. Britain rebuild its quarter of Shanghai and restarted the trade on the Yangtze River with inner China bringing much needed investments and funds to China. It was however now barred from maintaining an armed presence within Chinese borders as was any other nation. Along Britain the USA was swift to reenter Shanghai and Chinese trade. The troops in the Far East was recalled for the motherlands of Britain and France. Few British and Australian troops would remain in China and also French Colonial, Foreign Legion and Senegalese troops. The populations of Britain and France had tired of the demands of prolonged war in the Far East and wanted better living conditions and lower taxes. And sons and fathers to return to families. Though Britain had only deployed 1 Armour and 3 Infantry Divisions from Europe to the Far East during the War relying mainly on Empire troops to make up its total of 16 Divisions deployed Government was defeated in elections following popular dissent during the War. France had followed the like approach deploying 1½ Armour and 2 Infantry Divisions though also having 1-2 French regiments in each of the 4 Colonial and Marine Divisions deployed. The French Government managed to weather the storm though had to invest more at home as well as cut back on conscription time and numbers. France and the Netherlands were able to hold onto their Far Eastern Colonies for quite some time before the local independence movements found sponsors.
I'm not sure how politically viable this would be in the dominions and possibly also to a degree in Britain itself. We had been attacked in this war and I think there would be more determination to 'teach' the attackers a lesson and secure our interests.
A lot might depend on whether conscription was maintained after the war in Europe ended. The establishment of it in March 1939 was I think the 1st time it had been in place in peace-time and it had been a bitterly contested issue in WWI, not coming into place until 1916 and even then not in Ireland. I don't know where the government would maintain it after the defeat of Germany. - Can't remember if I had asked this before.
Assuming Labour has won a lot would depend on their policies and also the size of their majority. Given how much more successful the war had been and also there is less time for Labour to establish cabinet experience I would expect a smaller majority and possibly a less radical programme.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 16, 2024 19:45:05 GMT
Following the IJA withdrawal the WAllied and Chinese troops entered the vacated Chinese territory to assess damage and secure against a Communist take over in the political vacuum. Following the troops international press journalists came – the stories emanating paid a horrible image of Japans conduct of war and treatment of those interned including Europeans and North Americans. Pictures were initially to some degree censored but as the volume of horror hit the frontpages that stopped. In public opinion Japan became viewed as a pariah state and Americans regretting their country hadn't declared war upon it. Instead a new wave of anti-Japanese feelings was taken out on the small minority mainly on the US West Coast. The Soviet Union presented China with a bill of arms and other stuff delivered since 1932 which became an object of quarrels for decades. The Chinese Communist Party had expected to topple the KMT Government but the WAllied troops when withdrawing from China left enough warmateriel to sustain the Chinese Military for some years which made China able to finally quell the CCP uprising and get the industry of Manchuria working again though this was a rather drawn out affair lasting a year. Britain rebuild its quarter of Shanghai and restarted the trade on the Yangtze River with inner China bringing much needed investments and funds to China. It was however now barred from maintaining an armed presence within Chinese borders as was any other nation. Along Britain the USA was swift to reenter Shanghai and Chinese trade. The troops in the Far East was recalled for the motherlands of Britain and France. Few British and Australian troops would remain in China and also French Colonial, Foreign Legion and Senegalese troops. The populations of Britain and France had tired of the demands of prolonged war in the Far East and wanted better living conditions and lower taxes. And sons and fathers to return to families. Though Britain had only deployed 1 Armour and 3 Infantry Divisions from Europe to the Far East during the War relying mainly on Empire troops to make up its total of 16 Divisions deployed Government was defeated in elections following popular dissent during the War. France had followed the like approach deploying 1½ Armour and 2 Infantry Divisions though also having 1-2 French regiments in each of the 4 Colonial and Marine Divisions deployed. The French Government managed to weather the storm though had to invest more at home as well as cut back on conscription time and numbers. France and the Netherlands were able to hold onto their Far Eastern Colonies for quite some time before the local independence movements found sponsors.
I'm not sure how politically viable this would be in the dominions and possibly also to a degree in Britain itself. We had been attacked in this war and I think there would be more determination to 'teach' the attackers a lesson and secure our interests.
A lot might depend on whether conscription was maintained after the war in Europe ended. The establishment of it in March 1939 was I think the 1st time it had been in place in peace-time and it had been a bitterly contested issue in WWI, not coming into place until 1916 and even then not in Ireland. I don't know where the government would maintain it after the defeat of Germany. - Can't remember if I had asked this before.
Assuming Labour has won a lot would depend on their policies and also the size of their majority. Given how much more successful the war had been and also there is less time for Labour to establish cabinet experience I would expect a smaller majority and possibly a less radical programme.
I was thinking with war in Europe having ended during Spring 1941 and some months with various operations to secure peace - Hungary and such - a number of service personnel would have been demobilized prior to the outbreak of war in the Far East by November 1941. Hence why the low number of British troops sent to the Far East. Regarding the numbers of Dominions and India I used more or less the OTL troops mobilized up to the Japanese attack in December 1941 - hence the Middle East Strategic Reserve for a large part of Australian and New Zealand troops as well as one Canadian and for a short cameo a South African one in addition to a large Indian contingent were the troops in the Far East.
I'd guess the Aussies and Kiwi's would have been willing to defend themselves - remember the Australian PM wanting his troops home when the Japanese became more aggressive which pattern have been more or less followed here minus Japanese occupation of Northern FIC.
So basically conscription ended in Britain just a few months before the Japanese attack but still a large number would be available also to keep the lid on Germany just recently defeated and occupied - at least to my understanding and with an unpredictable Uncle Joe in Moscow.
I would have no problem in editing the elections though I thought of the Far East War as something Europeans would have little real interest in though of course British and French as well as Netherlands governments would though the shorter timeframe won't have made for the OTL warweariness.
Though thinking about WWII a number of Danes who hadn't been able to take part in the fighting due to the occupation were allowed service in the British Army post-war in Europe with a number serving in the Far East so there may still be quite a number who will want to do "their part of the job". I have edit the post.
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