stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 25, 2024 9:39:38 GMT
I think the primary problem with the allies armoured and other military forces were less equipment than doctrine, both in their own use and in co-operation with the Luftwaffe especially. Hopefully the fighting that has occurred will start changing this somewhat.
In terms of Japan it faces an even worse situation than OTL as while France is still independent their not going to get FIC without a possible fight, which in turn puts them further away from Malaya and the DEI, as well as making Thailand unlikely as even a limited ally. Furthermore the KMT is going to get more support more easily via FIC especially and japan won't have bases in FIC to threaten China from the south. The status of the DEI might also change, although with a major war on the doorstep and the invasion of Belgium and possibly Denmark [to close the Baltic] the Netherlands are likely to be doing everything to bolster their home defence so might not commit much more to their colonies.
The only significant danger here for the allies and it probably won't appear for another 12-18 months minimum would be if Japan still feels painted into a corner and strikes south but because the US is still significantly isolationist risks not attacking the US possessions, which could be nasty for an overstretched Anglo-French position. Although there's a decent if not good chance that by that date Germany is no longer a significant problem.
stevep;
Agree on Allied lack of doctrine for use of armour as well as lack of cooperation with their airforces though the French ought to be the ones to remedy that first as the RAF had a much more independent position than the majority of French air assets. Just realized this now.
Thanks for the input on Japanese situation - thing is the Dutch are going to reinforce their airforce in NEI come May and Fokker G-1's have come off the assemblyline in numbers which will "rid" them of the Fokker D-XXI for NEI and have the more able G-1 to defend home.
Japan striking south ITTL will to some degree depend upon the position of the Soviets. I'm not there yet.
That is the other issue in play here. Germany is no threat to the USSR in this scenario no matter what Hitler might wish. Does Stalin simply rebuild his army - who's weakness has been shown by the Winter war - and wait on events? If it looks like Germany is going down does he look to backstab them, possibly to get the 1914 borders or even further, which would also give him an - admittedly very weak - claim to be an ally and hence seek to avoid an allied attack? Or does he look to build on recent successes against the Japanese. Or sit back while his opponents bleed each other?
One event that will be relevant soon. Was the Soviet claim to Bessarabia included in the R-M treaty? If so does Stalin seek to pressurize Romania on the issue? Ditto can't remember but has he occupied the Baltic states yet? Those were historical events in 1940 but would both alienate the western powers and demonstrate German weakness.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 25, 2024 9:46:04 GMT
stevep;
Agree on Allied lack of doctrine for use of armour as well as lack of cooperation with their airforces though the French ought to be the ones to remedy that first as the RAF had a much more independent position than the majority of French air assets. Just realized this now.
Thanks for the input on Japanese situation - thing is the Dutch are going to reinforce their airforce in NEI come May and Fokker G-1's have come off the assemblyline in numbers which will "rid" them of the Fokker D-XXI for NEI and have the more able G-1 to defend home.
Japan striking south ITTL will to some degree depend upon the position of the Soviets. I'm not there yet.
That is the other issue in play here. Germany is no threat to the USSR in this scenario no matter what Hitler might wish. Does Stalin simply rebuild his army - who's weakness has been shown by the Winter war - and wait on events? If it looks like Germany is going down does he look to backstab them, possibly to get the 1914 borders or even further, which would also give him an - admittedly very weak - claim to be an ally and hence seek to avoid an allied attack? Or does he look to build on recent successes against the Japanese. Or sit back while his opponents bleed each other?
One event that will be relevant soon. Was the Soviet claim to Bessarabia included in the R-M treaty? If so does Stalin seek to pressurize Romania on the issue? Ditto can't remember but has he occupied the Baltic states yet? Those were historical events in 1940 but would both alienate the western powers and demonstrate German weakness.
Bessarabia was included in R-M treaty in that Germany didn't have any aspirations there. Thats why I earlier wrote about the Soviets occupying it in our discussions - not in thread yet. The Baltics will be occupied at this moment just forgotten to write that being effected - too much to think about in the West. Certainly if Germany is defeated by the Allies it will be an issue of potential conflict as will Bessarabia. Will have to do some thinking on this - though can't have Stalin look into the crystal ball! Bessarabia wasn't occupied by Stalin untill post Fall of France so nothing settled there anyway at the moment. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 25, 2024 9:53:30 GMT
Just looked up the dates - Lithuania occupied 15 June 1940, Estonia and Lithuania 17 June 1940. Hmm so Joe sat tight untill German victory was a given; Paris had fallen and BEF evacuated from the Continent! Ha-ha; change of plans he'll sit tight still.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 25, 2024 10:19:09 GMT
Come May 1940 the OKH still wasn't ready to roll though Hitler would overrule their excuses.
So what did happen once time turned May with good flying weather – at first Luftwaffe initiated an airsuperority phase of attacking Allied Airfields.
Due to preparations the RAF was usually able to get its Fighters in the Air to meet or even bounce the Luftwaffe runs but the French Airforce due to continued Army control and still mainly reliant on telephone as the operational signals system though much less used than 8 months previously wasn't as efficient as radio. With Airunits more dispersed the French counter attack would make less impact on Luftwaffe and usually run into the Fighter Escort and not hit the Bombers.
Even so Luftwaffe had to continue this initial phase for quite some time as the WAllied Airforces were still a potent threat in the air though the WAllies soon realized that a larger part of the Airdefences HAD to be conducted by the RAF even if the French was about to get the hang of it.
Only the non-transferral of full Operational Control of Airforce Assets to Army Control made the French Airforce able to continue operations mostly so to do Airsuperiority missions.
France had finally succumbed to the use of Polish and Czech Airmen raising the number of Squadrons such equipped from 7 to 14 with an aim to make this way larger. Those Polish and Czech Squadrons was active though on the Alpes border. This would soon change.
The Germans had realized both from the Polish experience but also the continued fighting in the West that their tanks needed more armour-plate basically all over. This meant for delayed refurbishing of the units lost in Poland – some 500 total – which basically all would be rebuilds and the new builds of mainly Pz.III and Pz.IV which both had their armour opgraded the French way – thicker armour all around!
Because of the low output of German factories of Pz. III and IV mainly being related to design changes the OKH wanted the production of the Czech Pz. 38 reopened to make for a reasonably armoured if underarmed light Tank and to make up for numbers needed. The surviveability of the tank on the battleground of Poland, which had been higher than German designs, had to be relied upon.
Which also meant that Tank guns and AT-guns had to be upgraded which hadn't been accounted for initially and which slowed down repairs and builds.
The Pz.IV and to some degree the Pz.III had little problem in this as they had larger turretrings by design so could easier be upgraded than the earlier designs and the CZ ones.
As armour and armament grew so did the need for more engine output and work was done to build new tank engines still to fit into existing types as the OKH knew there was little time available to design new Tanks.
The German armaments industry just hadn't been prepared for such a sudden change of design and began to lack behind demand ending up with a lot of under-powered vehicles with barely sufficient armour and guns that detracted from mobility and put the opposing sides on a more equal footing.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 25, 2024 18:55:39 GMT
Come May 1940 the OKH still wasn't ready to roll though Hitler would overrule their excuses. So what did happen once time turned May with good flying weather – at first Luftwaffe initiated an airsuperority phase of attacking Allied Airfields. Due to preparations the RAF was usually able to get its Fighters in the Air to meet or even bounce the Luftwaffe runs but the French Airforce due to continued Army control and still mainly reliant on telephone as the operational signals system though much less used than 8 months previously wasn't as efficient as radio. With Airunits more dispersed the French counter attack would make less impact on Luftwaffe and usually run into the Fighter Escort and not hit the Bombers. Even so Luftwaffe had to continue this initial phase for quite some time as the WAllied Airforces were still a potent threat in the air though the WAllies soon realized that a larger part of the Airdefences HAD to be conducted by the RAF even if the French was about to get the hang of it. Only the non-transferral of full Operational Control of Airforce Assets to Army Control made the French Airforce able to continue operations mostly so to do Airsuperiority missions. France had finally succumbed to the use of Polish and Czech Airmen raising the number of Squadrons such equipped from 7 to 14 with an aim to make this way larger. Those Polish and Czech Squadrons was active though on the Alpes border. This would soon change. The Germans had realized both from the Polish experience but also the continued fighting in the West that their tanks needed more armour-plate basically all over. This meant for delayed refurbishing of the units lost in Poland – some 500 total – which basically all would be rebuilds and the new builds of mainly Pz.III and Pz.IV which both had their armour opgraded the French way – thicker armour all around! Because of the low output of German factories of Pz. III and IV mainly being related to design changes the OKH wanted the production of the Czech Pz. 38 reopened to make for a reasonably armoured if underarmed light Tank and to make up for numbers needed. The surviveability of the tank on the battleground of Poland, which had been higher than German designs, had to be relied upon. Which also meant that Tank guns and AT-guns had to be upgraded which hadn't been accounted for initially and which slowed down repairs and builds. The Pz.IV and to some degree the Pz.III had little problem in this as they had larger turretrings by design so could easier be upgraded than the earlier designs and the CZ ones. As armour and armament grew so did the need for more engine output and work was done to build new tank engines still to fit into existing types as the OKH knew there was little time available to design new Tanks. The German armaments industry just hadn't been prepared for such a sudden change of design and began to lack behind demand ending up with a lot of under-powered vehicles with barely sufficient armour and guns that detracted from mobility and put the opposing sides on a more equal footing.
This sounds promising, for the allies. 
On the other posts I wonder if Stalin will stay quiet on the Baltic's indefinitely? If it looks like Germany is going down but the allies have taken significant losses in winning I could see him seizing them as a buffer zone in the expectation that a war weary western alliance is unlikely to want to risk a major new war with the USSR, especially since given its size a decisive victory against it would be pretty much impossible without massive internal discontent which they would be unlikely to be relying on. Well unless Stalin has gone east and is bogged down in the Far East in a war with Japan. Otherwise you might see some sort of proto-Nato emerging [although I suspect not including the US ] and membership of that by the Baltic states would be of concern to Stalin, especially with it being close to Leningrad.
The other thing I'm thinking of here is that Stalin has already occupied eastern Poland and unless he's willing to give that up, which I think is highly unlikely he's already seized lands that would probably seem more important than the Baltic states to the western powers. Of course this depends on the political and economic status of the western powers after Germany is [presumably] defeated. However them being willing to fight the USSR for eastern Poland seems unlikely to me.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 25, 2024 20:50:50 GMT
Come May 1940 the OKH still wasn't ready to roll though Hitler would overrule their excuses. So what did happen once time turned May with good flying weather – at first Luftwaffe initiated an airsuperority phase of attacking Allied Airfields. Due to preparations the RAF was usually able to get its Fighters in the Air to meet or even bounce the Luftwaffe runs but the French Airforce due to continued Army control and still mainly reliant on telephone as the operational signals system though much less used than 8 months previously wasn't as efficient as radio. With Airunits more dispersed the French counter attack would make less impact on Luftwaffe and usually run into the Fighter Escort and not hit the Bombers. Even so Luftwaffe had to continue this initial phase for quite some time as the WAllied Airforces were still a potent threat in the air though the WAllies soon realized that a larger part of the Airdefences HAD to be conducted by the RAF even if the French was about to get the hang of it. Only the non-transferral of full Operational Control of Airforce Assets to Army Control made the French Airforce able to continue operations mostly so to do Airsuperiority missions. France had finally succumbed to the use of Polish and Czech Airmen raising the number of Squadrons such equipped from 7 to 14 with an aim to make this way larger. Those Polish and Czech Squadrons was active though on the Alpes border. This would soon change. The Germans had realized both from the Polish experience but also the continued fighting in the West that their tanks needed more armour-plate basically all over. This meant for delayed refurbishing of the units lost in Poland – some 500 total – which basically all would be rebuilds and the new builds of mainly Pz.III and Pz.IV which both had their armour opgraded the French way – thicker armour all around! Because of the low output of German factories of Pz. III and IV mainly being related to design changes the OKH wanted the production of the Czech Pz. 38 reopened to make for a reasonably armoured if underarmed light Tank and to make up for numbers needed. The surviveability of the tank on the battleground of Poland, which had been higher than German designs, had to be relied upon. Which also meant that Tank guns and AT-guns had to be upgraded which hadn't been accounted for initially and which slowed down repairs and builds. The Pz.IV and to some degree the Pz.III had little problem in this as they had larger turretrings by design so could easier be upgraded than the earlier designs and the CZ ones. As armour and armament grew so did the need for more engine output and work was done to build new tank engines still to fit into existing types as the OKH knew there was little time available to design new Tanks. The German armaments industry just hadn't been prepared for such a sudden change of design and began to lack behind demand ending up with a lot of under-powered vehicles with barely sufficient armour and guns that detracted from mobility and put the opposing sides on a more equal footing.
This sounds promising, for the allies.
On the other posts I wonder if Stalin will stay quiet on the Baltic's indefinitely? If it looks like Germany is going down but the allies have taken significant losses in winning I could see him seizing them as a buffer zone in the expectation that a war weary western alliance is unlikely to want to risk a major new war with the USSR, especially since given its size a decisive victory against it would be pretty much impossible without massive internal discontent which they would be unlikely to be relying on. Well unless Stalin has gone east and is bogged down in the Far East in a war with Japan. Otherwise you might see some sort of proto-Nato emerging [although I suspect not including the US ] and membership of that by the Baltic states would be of concern to Stalin, especially with it being close to Leningrad.
The other thing I'm thinking of here is that Stalin has already occupied eastern Poland and unless he's willing to give that up, which I think is highly unlikely he's already seized lands that would probably seem more important than the Baltic states to the western powers. Of course this depends on the political and economic status of the western powers after Germany is [presumably] defeated. However them being willing to fight the USSR for eastern Poland seems unlikely to me.
Yes - rather promising though some problems persist. More soon.
More on Stalin too - I have written some but have to finish the German offensive first. However I ponder if he will find the Trans-Siberian railway too much of a bottleneck for logistics. It didn't really help the Russians much during 1904-5. However they seemed not too encumbered by it during the 1930's and 1945 so perhaps really not. Think if the Allies defeat Germany and still look capable, at least not spent he won't be doing too much in the West. An Allied defeat of Germany will surely rebuild Czechoslovakia and an alliance of some kind bordering Russia. As a consequence of Sovietunion keeping Kresy Poland may end up more or less with OTL post-WWII borders. There is of course a lot of dark horses in Eastern Europe - Hungary - Bulgaria at least. And then Italy though I don't see Mussolini challenging the Allies. I too don't really see Stalin handing Kresy to Poland - "if you want it come claim it!"
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 25, 2024 22:09:12 GMT
This sounds promising, for the allies.
On the other posts I wonder if Stalin will stay quiet on the Baltic's indefinitely? If it looks like Germany is going down but the allies have taken significant losses in winning I could see him seizing them as a buffer zone in the expectation that a war weary western alliance is unlikely to want to risk a major new war with the USSR, especially since given its size a decisive victory against it would be pretty much impossible without massive internal discontent which they would be unlikely to be relying on. Well unless Stalin has gone east and is bogged down in the Far East in a war with Japan. Otherwise you might see some sort of proto-Nato emerging [although I suspect not including the US ] and membership of that by the Baltic states would be of concern to Stalin, especially with it being close to Leningrad.
The other thing I'm thinking of here is that Stalin has already occupied eastern Poland and unless he's willing to give that up, which I think is highly unlikely he's already seized lands that would probably seem more important than the Baltic states to the western powers. Of course this depends on the political and economic status of the western powers after Germany is [presumably] defeated. However them being willing to fight the USSR for eastern Poland seems unlikely to me.
Yes - rather promising though some problems persist. More soon.
More on Stalin too - I have written some but have to finish the German offensive first. However I ponder if he will find the Trans-Siberian railway too much of a bottleneck for logistics. It didn't really help the Russians much during 1904-5. However they seemed not too encumbered by it during the 1930's and 1945 so perhaps really not. Think if the Allies defeat Germany and still look capable, at least not spent he won't be doing too much in the West. An Allied defeat of Germany will surely rebuild Czechoslovakia and an alliance of some kind bordering Russia. As a consequence of Sovietunion keeping Kresy Poland may end up more or less with OTL post-WWII borders. There is of course a lot of dark horses in Eastern Europe - Hungary - Bulgaria at least. And then Italy though I don't see Mussolini challenging the Allies. I too don't really see Stalin handing Kresy to Poland - "if you want it come claim it!"
IIRC the Trans-Siberian wasn't really complete when Japan went to war. Actually checking the wiki article it was completed but that it was single track for much of the distance coupled with corruption in its construction meant it was very inefficient in terms of how much it could carry, which greatly restricted the carriage capacity and its usefulness for Russia in the war. How much this could be improved or was historically I don't know but it did carry a lot of traffic in WWII.
From memory - which prompted my initial sentence above I think for quite a while after it was 1st 'completed' there were some significant problems. Think there was a section over the ice of Lake Baikal, or a ferry when it was melted, until after the war. See the Circum-Baikal railway for details. The line wasn't fully operational until Oct 1905.
Also I have a memory of the line depending on a route through Manchuria until some time after this although as I say that's working from memory so could be wrong. I do note from the main wiki article on the Trans-Siberian while it provided a lot of supplies much of the forces involved in the attack on Japanese Manchuria in 1945 basically marched/drove much of the distance to avoid too much pressure on the railway.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 26, 2024 12:55:21 GMT
Yes - rather promising though some problems persist. More soon.
More on Stalin too - I have written some but have to finish the German offensive first. However I ponder if he will find the Trans-Siberian railway too much of a bottleneck for logistics. It didn't really help the Russians much during 1904-5. However they seemed not too encumbered by it during the 1930's and 1945 so perhaps really not. Think if the Allies defeat Germany and still look capable, at least not spent he won't be doing too much in the West. An Allied defeat of Germany will surely rebuild Czechoslovakia and an alliance of some kind bordering Russia. As a consequence of Sovietunion keeping Kresy Poland may end up more or less with OTL post-WWII borders. There is of course a lot of dark horses in Eastern Europe - Hungary - Bulgaria at least. And then Italy though I don't see Mussolini challenging the Allies. I too don't really see Stalin handing Kresy to Poland - "if you want it come claim it!"
IIRC the Trans-Siberian wasn't really complete when Japan went to war. Actually checking the wiki article it was completed but that it was single track for much of the distance coupled with corruption in its construction meant it was very inefficient in terms of how much it could carry, which greatly restricted the carriage capacity and its usefulness for Russia in the war. How much this could be improved or was historically I don't know but it did carry a lot of traffic in WWII.
From memory - which prompted my initial sentence above I think for quite a while after it was 1st 'completed' there were some significant problems. Think there was a section over the ice of Lake Baikal, or a ferry when it was melted, until after the war. See the Circum-Baikal railway for details. The line wasn't fully operational until Oct 1905.
Also I have a memory of the line depending on a route through Manchuria until some time after this although as I say that's working from memory so could be wrong. I do note from the main wiki article on the Trans-Siberian while it provided a lot of supplies much of the forces involved in the attack on Japanese Manchuria in 1945 basically marched/drove much of the distance to avoid too much pressure on the railway.
Looked up the TSR - seems to have in the main been finished as dual-track in the late 1930's.
Regarding the Soviets by OTL 1945 they had had the benefit of almost 5 years of L-L which among a lot other stuff provided them with 356,000 trucks of these 265,000 4x4, 6x4 and 6x6 trucks of a total of 356,000. From the link by MaxS in resources. An answer here have 270,000 Soviet military trucks 22 06 1941 with 150,000 new, 221,500 mobilized, 60,600 captured and 312,600 L-L during the war. Either way L-L constitute almost ½ all Soviet trucks. I'd say the Soviets if moving east will either walk or have to wait for the next train.
More L-L:
1,683 Light Tanks, 5,489 Medium Tanks. And L-L interesting no's:
Ammunition the prominent being 9,7 mill. 37mm, 8,3 mill. 40mm and 3,3 mill. 75mm shells. 1,3 mill. smokepots.
28,000 infantry radiosets, 15,000 vehicle such. 618,000 telephones. 4,6 mill. dry batteries. 10 mill. vacuumtubes. Large amounts of photographic film. Paper. Electronics. Voltmeters. Chemicals - Fenol, Methanol, Ethylene Glycol, 44,9 mill. lb Caustic Soda, 4,9 mill. lb DEG, 4,1 mill. lb WP nerve/blister agent (last ditch defence?)
For the troops 14,6 mill. shoes, 302,000 pairs of boots, 1 mill. heels, 10,000 coats, 2 mill. drawers (don't want to freeze), 257 mill. buttons. 1,600 locomotives as the Soviet factories were building Tanks.
ITTL the Soviets may need less but still be at some disadvantage.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 26, 2024 13:01:02 GMT
An important lesson learned by the RAF and Arme de l'Air was to not fly too low when doing ground attacks as the German light FLAK was too heavy for survival and allocate Fighter escorts to Light/Medium Bombers to increase their chance of surviving enemy fighters.
Besides not flying low the Arme de l'Air had had time to optimize cooperating with the Army in supporting ground attacks to a much higher level than the Army had ever dreamt of. The rather static situation and low intensity in airoperations air-to-air had provided the breathing space for the Adl'A to refine its Army cooperations task. An outsider might have judged it below the German standard but it was a take on the task that worked and certainly not what the Germans had expected.
With RAF having overall command of early warning the Adl'A was in position to deliver close support when needed if not always in numbers wanted but it provided an edge.
To make the effort effective the Adl'A had complained about the small number of LN-40 dive-bombers at hand; the Army sensing the issue had supported the Adl'A and a large order for Douglass SBD bombers had been effected.
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 9, 2024 8:18:22 GMT
The British hadn't been lying low. Industry had been geared to larger war output to supply the Armed Forces – aircraft and tanks coming off the assemblylines.
The 2. Armoured Division had following the German Spring offensive been ferried to Calais to build the first British Armoured Corps as 1. Armoured had been training and in battle for the past 6 months learning the trade the hard way; that was a benefit to reap for 2. Armoured as some interchange of personnel was made to provide 2. Armoured with an experienced cadre.
1. Tank Brigade had had its A11 Tanks (Mathilda I) replaced by A12 (Mathilda II) and being a real headache to German AT-gunners. A12's had also found a place with the Armoured Divisions in recognition of its obvious armour advantage though the various Cruiser Tanks were still seen as the breakthrough tank due to their speed – not the A10 though it had the armour and gun to survive on the battlefield.
The Army had asked for the tanks to be supplied with a 2pdr. HE-round or a larger gun capable of both AP and HE in recognition of the oft complained lack of such to support infantry against German Infantry and to fire at German AT-weapons not least the 88's. The French were much better off in this field as their 47mm guns of the Char B1 Renault D2 and Somua Tanks had this capability and Army demand had actually gotten a production line set up and running.
However due to ongoing combat vehicles were lost as fast as they came off the production line that procurement of French tanks had been considered but the French themselves was procuring the home production with nothing to spare.
The main flaw in British production was manhours put into each tank building and post-production correction of faulty construction neighter of which was adressed at the moment. The other solution was as the French to buy equipment in the US but besides the Light M2 Tank the US didn't have a Medium Tank that was of interest to the British. For the moment the British had to soldier on with whats available.
The Tank was about being recognized as a much more versatile instrument than originally thought.
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575
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Post by 575 on Feb 9, 2024 11:33:11 GMT
Admirals Reader and Dönitz had been discussing for some time the disadvantage of the U-boats being hemmed in in the North Sea. New builds of larger class VII boats was coming into service slowly while the original force were being worn down due to the redirection of steel to rebuild and build tanks and guns. All the special alloys were going to the Luftwaffe to build more aircraft as the British and French were getting better at the airgame.
The Admirals had been poring over the old Strategic plans dating back to the Great War of obtaining bases on the Norwegian coast to more easily having the U-boats get into the Atlantic.
So far any presentation of the plan had only met with total dismissal of the OKH and Luftwaffe – even the energetic though lately diminished effort of the Norwegian Nazi-leader Vikund Quisling hadn't been swaying Hitler into depart from the demands of OKH and Luftwaffe.
The best they had been offered was oil for the surface ships to deliver raids upon the Allied Merchantmen but so far the few attemps hadn't been too successfull mainly due to bad weather but also the strong presence of the RN and MN distant Battleships and Cruisers covering the Norwegian Convoys.
Already the Kriegsmarine had suffered losses as the Gneisenau had been damaged in the sweep at Iceland during late November 1939 where the Light Cruiser Köln had been torpedoed and sunk. Gneisenau being out of operations still by May 1940 and still needing repairs though was anticipated to be back in service by late July.
Scharnhorst had also sustained some damage during that action but was back in service a month later.
The Light Cruisers Leipzig and Nürnberg had both been torpedoed during December 1939. Leipzig still undergoing repairs and not ready for service.
Reluctant to send out Scharnhorst alone the Admirals had drawn up a sweep to Iceland by April 1940 when the seaice had lessened to raid the Norwegian Convoys.
Norway convoys – some 30 had been going from Norway to Britain since the outbreak of War during 141039-070440 carrying at least 131 shiploads of timbers, telegraph poles, paper, cellulose and pulp, 77 shiploads of ore and pig iron and few of manganese and zinc. A number of convoys hadn't had their cargo specified by the Germans in Norway be they of Consular service in port cities just like every other seafaring nation especially in Narvik where some German shipping companies ran offices for the shipping of iron ore to Germany.
Large number of merchantmen were going in ballast to Britain however so for a large part the convoys were for Scandinavian imports. The merchantmen came from all Scandinavia, the Baltic States and Finland with the occational Dutch, French or other Nations ships among them.
The distant Battleship/Battlecruiser cover of the Convoys had been absent for some months according to the Küstenflieger/Coast Flying Group so Heavy Cruisers/Pocket Battleships Admiral Scheer and Lützow with Light Cruisers Königsberg and Karlsruhe and a screen of 10 Destroyers/Torpedoboats was send north on April Fools Day 1940.
Steaming north on the 5 April the Destroyers sighted a British bound convoy escorted by a Light Cruiser and 4 Destroyers. This was what the Germans had hoped for a convoy carrying goods to make the British sustain the war. Unknown to the Germans a RN Destroyer was busy reassembling stragglers.
The German squadron moving ahead the Convoy was dispersed and the RN ships turned to engage.
With 6 Destroyers and the Light Cruisers fighting the RN the two Heavy Cruisers and 4 Destroyers headed for the dispersed Merchantmen.
Unfortunately for the Kriegsmarine the RN Hood and Rodney was assigned as distant cover for the Convoy and was now heading for the battle.
During the battle the RN Escort leader realized that his last Destroyer was heading his way with 13 ships it had managed to collect which had scattered during the night. This turn of events would serve to drag the battle out leaving time for Hood and Rodney to appear on the scene.
Busy picking off Merchantmen the German Admiral too late realized the RN Battleships arriving announcing their presence with 15” and 16” shells falling on the Heavy Cruisers.
The Germans quickly beat retreat though Lützow, Königsberg and Karlsruhe as well as 4 Destroyers was sunk.
Getting information from the North Sea Admiral Reader would receive much praise by Hitler at the late night OKW conference of the steadfastness and aggressive activity of the Kriegsmarine though Reader well knew that the Kriegsmarine was in very bad condition with only Scharnhorst, heavy cruiser Hipper and light cruisers Nürnberg and Emden operational. The ships returning from the North Sea battle would all be in some state of needing repairs – Admiral Scheer was limping back towards Germany though RAF attacks was to be expected during her slow retreat. One Destroyer of the 6 survivors had been in so bad state as to seek port at Stavanger, Norway for emergency repairs due to the rough sea. Hopefully that would be on its way within the next 24 hours.
Any future surface activity would have to await the finishing of repairs on Gneisenau still to be going on for some 3 months.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Feb 9, 2024 12:06:29 GMT
The British hadn't been lying low. Industry had been geared to larger war output to supply the Armed Forces – aircraft and tanks coming off the assemblylines. The 2. Armoured Division had following the German Spring offensive been ferried to Calais to build the first British Armoured Corps as 1. Armoured had been training and in battle for the past 6 months learning the trade the hard way; that was a benefit to reap for 2. Armoured as some interchange of personnel was made to provide 2. Armoured with an experienced cadre. 1. Tank Brigade had had its A11 Tanks (Mathilda I) replaced by A12 (Mathilda II) and being a real headache to German AT-gunners. A12's had also found a place with the Armoured Divisions in recognition of its obvious armour advantage though the various Cruiser Tanks were still seen as the breakthrough tank due to their speed – not the A10 though it had the armour and gun to survive on the battlefield. The Army had asked for the tanks to be supplied with a 2pdr. HE-round or a larger gun capable of both AP and HE in recognition of the oft complained lack of such to support infantry against German Infantry and to fire at German AT-weapons not least the 88's. The French were much better off in this field as their 47mm guns of the Char B1 Renault D2 and Somua Tanks had this capability and Army demand had actually gotten a production line set up and running. However due to ongoing combat vehicles were lost as fast as they came off the production line that procurement of French tanks had been considered but the French themselves was procuring the home production with nothing to spare. The main flaw in British production was manhours put into each tank building and post-production correction of faulty construction neighter of which was adressed at the moment. The other solution was as the French to buy equipment in the US but besides the Light M2 Tank the US didn't have a Medium Tank that was of interest to the British. For the moment the British had to soldier on with whats available. The Tank was about being recognized as a much more versatile instrument than originally thought.
That would be one big possible bonus for Britain. Without the fall of western Europe and loss of so much equipment bringing also the fear of invasion there is less pressure for Britain to produce armour and other units immediately regardless of problems and hence more time to resolve problems, such as getting a better gun earlier, more reliability and possibly most of all a suitably powerful engine as that seems to have been the biggest single issue with British armour material wise anyway. - I do remember reading that OTL William Morris, aka Lord Nuffield pushed for the use of a modified version of the WWI Liberty engine which he had a license for and proved too weak for the task. If that could be avoided British armour would be markedly better in performance. You would still need to get a better doctrine that that too often inherited from the cavalry regiments than many were converted from.
Of course this reduced crisis along with a further reduction from Italy being neutral and the German air and naval threat being significantly less helps Britain and also France all around.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Feb 9, 2024 12:22:47 GMT
Admirals Reader and Dönitz had been discussing for some time the disadvantage of the U-boats being hemmed in in the North Sea. New builds of larger class VII boats was coming into service slowly while the original force were being worn down due to the redirection of steel to rebuild and build tanks and guns. All the special alloys were going to the Luftwaffe to build more aircraft as the British and French were getting better at the airgame. The Admirals had been poring over the old Strategic plans dating back to the Great War of obtaining bases on the Norwegian coast to more easily having the U-boats get into the Atlantic. So far any presentation of the plan had only met with total dismissal of the OKH and Luftwaffe – even the energetic though lately diminished effort of the Norwegian Nazi-leader Vikund Quisling hadn't been swaying Hitler into depart from the demands of OKH and Luftwaffe. The best they had been offered was oil for the surface ships to deliver raids upon the Allied Merchantmen but so far the few attemps hadn't been too successfull mainly due to bad weather but also the strong presence of the RN and MN distant Battleships and Cruisers covering the Norwegian Convoys. Already the Kriegsmarine had suffered losses as the Gneisenau had been damaged in the sweep at Iceland during late November 1939 where the Light Cruiser Köln had been torpedoed and sunk. Gneisenau being out of operations still by May 1940 and still needing repairs though was anticipated to be back in service by late July. Scharnhorst had also sustained some damage during that action but was back in service a month later. The Light Cruisers Leipzig and Nürnberg had both been torpedoed during December 1939. Leipzig still undergoing repairs and not ready for service. Reluctant to send out Scharnhorst alone the Admirals had drawn up a sweep to Iceland by April 1940 when the seaice had lessened to raid the Norwegian Convoys. Norway convoys – some 30 had been going from Norway to Britain since the outbreak of War during 141039-070440 carrying at least 131 shiploads of timbers, telegraph poles, paper, cellulose and pulp, 77 shiploads of ore and pig iron and few of manganese and zinc. A number of convoys hadn't had their cargo specified by the Germans in Norway be they of Consular service in port cities just like every other seafaring nation especially in Narvik where some German shipping companies ran offices for the shipping of iron ore to Germany. Large number of merchantmen were going in ballast to Britain however so for a large part the convoys were for Scandinavian imports. The merchantmen came from all Scandinavia, the Baltic States and Finland with the occational Dutch, French or other Nations ships among them. The distant Battleship/Battlecruiser cover of the Convoys had been absent for some months according to the Küstenflieger/Coast Flying Group so Heavy Cruisers/Pocket Battleships Admiral Scheer and Lützow with Light Cruisers Königsberg and Karlsruhe and a screen of 10 Destroyers/Torpedoboats was send north on April Fools Day 1940. Steaming north on the 5 April the Destroyers sighted a British bound convoy escorted by a Light Cruiser and 4 Destroyers. This was what the Germans had hoped for a convoy carrying goods to make the British sustain the war. Unknown to the Germans a RN Destroyer was busy reassembling stragglers. The German squadron moving ahead the Convoy was dispersed and the RN ships turned to engage. With 6 Destroyers and the Light Cruisers fighting the RN the two Heavy Cruisers and 4 Destroyers headed for the dispersed Merchantmen. Unfortunately for the Kriegsmarine the RN Hood and Rodney was assigned as distant cover for the Convoy and was now heading for the battle. During the battle the RN Escort leader realized that his last Destroyer was heading his way with 13 ships it had managed to collect which had scattered during the night. This turn of events would serve to drag the battle out leaving time for Hood and Rodney to appear on the scene. Busy picking off Merchantmen the German Admiral too late realized the RN Battleships arriving announcing their presence with 15” and 16” shells falling on the Heavy Cruisers. The Germans quickly beat retreat though Lützow, Königsberg and Karlsruhe as well as 4 Destroyers was sunk. Getting information from the North Sea Admiral Reader would receive much praise by Hitler at the late night OKW conference of the steadfastness and aggressive activity of the Kriegsmarine though Reader well knew that the Kriegsmarine was in very bad condition with only Scharnhorst, heavy cruiser Hipper and light cruisers Nürnberg and Emden operational. The ships returning from the North Sea battle would all be in some state of needing repairs – Admiral Scheer was limping back towards Germany though RAF attacks was to be expected during her slow retreat. One Destroyer of the 6 survivors had been in so bad state as to seek port at Stavanger, Norway for emergency repairs due to the rough sea. Hopefully that would be on its way within the next 24 hours. Any future surface activity would have to await the finishing of repairs on Gneisenau still to be going on for some 3 months.
Excellent. I think Reader was possibly getting desperate to do something to earn prestige and hence influence for his service, which is supposed to have been a motivation for the Bismark sortie OTL prior to that year's big land offensive. However the Scheer and Lutzow while basically over armed CAs pay for that with a lower speed which if faced with something like Hood, even with the poor state of its engines they would struggle to get away.
Those losses and damage mean that subs aside its only really Scharnhorst & Hipper that might be available for raiding at any great distance from German bases so that greatly reduces the surface threat. Also the loss of so many DDs, especially if the one in Norway ends up being interned - or possibly having a RN force awaiting its attempts to leave, reduces the escort units available for German shipping elsewhere, which might give the British subs some opportunities although they could take some heavy losses doing so.
Which made me think of what British subs are doing. OTL they were deployed in situations they were poorly designed for, initially off occupied Norway in a northern summer keeping an eye out for an invasion from that region and then in the shallow waters of the Med in regions under Italian air cover in many cases. Both of those resulted in heavy casualties but with Norway still an independent neutral and Italy having not joined the war neither of those demands are occurring. If the bulk of the larger longer ranged subs stay in E Asia, which is where they were designed for that could make a difference if Japan was to try something.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Feb 9, 2024 16:40:12 GMT
The British hadn't been lying low. Industry had been geared to larger war output to supply the Armed Forces – aircraft and tanks coming off the assemblylines. The 2. Armoured Division had following the German Spring offensive been ferried to Calais to build the first British Armoured Corps as 1. Armoured had been training and in battle for the past 6 months learning the trade the hard way; that was a benefit to reap for 2. Armoured as some interchange of personnel was made to provide 2. Armoured with an experienced cadre. 1. Tank Brigade had had its A11 Tanks (Mathilda I) replaced by A12 (Mathilda II) and being a real headache to German AT-gunners. A12's had also found a place with the Armoured Divisions in recognition of its obvious armour advantage though the various Cruiser Tanks were still seen as the breakthrough tank due to their speed – not the A10 though it had the armour and gun to survive on the battlefield. The Army had asked for the tanks to be supplied with a 2pdr. HE-round or a larger gun capable of both AP and HE in recognition of the oft complained lack of such to support infantry against German Infantry and to fire at German AT-weapons not least the 88's. The French were much better off in this field as their 47mm guns of the Char B1 Renault D2 and Somua Tanks had this capability and Army demand had actually gotten a production line set up and running. However due to ongoing combat vehicles were lost as fast as they came off the production line that procurement of French tanks had been considered but the French themselves was procuring the home production with nothing to spare. The main flaw in British production was manhours put into each tank building and post-production correction of faulty construction neighter of which was adressed at the moment. The other solution was as the French to buy equipment in the US but besides the Light M2 Tank the US didn't have a Medium Tank that was of interest to the British. For the moment the British had to soldier on with whats available. The Tank was about being recognized as a much more versatile instrument than originally thought.
That would be one big possible bonus for Britain. Without the fall of western Europe and loss of so much equipment bringing also the fear of invasion there is less pressure for Britain to produce armour and other units immediately regardless of problems and hence more time to resolve problems, such as getting a better gun earlier, more reliability and possibly most of all a suitably powerful engine as that seems to have been the biggest single issue with British armour material wise anyway. - I do remember reading that OTL William Morris, aka Lord Nuffield pushed for the use of a modified version of the WWI Liberty engine which he had a license for and proved too weak for the task. If that could be avoided British armour would be markedly better in performance. You would still need to get a better doctrine that that too often inherited from the cavalry regiments than many were converted from.
Of course this reduced crisis along with a further reduction from Italy being neutral and the German air and naval threat being significantly less helps Britain and also France all around.
I'm not that much of a Tankie - I learned how to identify and destroy them.  Have seen some threads on AHcom about the Centurion engine - the RR Meteor. Though with the emphasis in Britain on aircraft resources may not be deviated from that production area. More of a problem I'd think is the main gun on British Tanks the 2 pdr. A HE round was developed but not carried as it wasn't expected for tanks to be artillery. The French 47mm Tank gun SA 35 would be a good upgrade is it will also provide the basis of a slightly larger HE round besides being able to punch through more armour. Or have the already designed 6 pdr - 57mm gun go into production which with no invasion scare may well have been put into production and Tanks redesigned to carry this.
I expect the ½ year of ongoing fighting in Belgium will have done something to Tank doctrine - more on this in the next installment.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Feb 9, 2024 16:52:41 GMT
Admirals Reader and Dönitz had been discussing for some time the disadvantage of the U-boats being hemmed in in the North Sea. New builds of larger class VII boats was coming into service slowly while the original force were being worn down due to the redirection of steel to rebuild and build tanks and guns. All the special alloys were going to the Luftwaffe to build more aircraft as the British and French were getting better at the airgame. The Admirals had been poring over the old Strategic plans dating back to the Great War of obtaining bases on the Norwegian coast to more easily having the U-boats get into the Atlantic. So far any presentation of the plan had only met with total dismissal of the OKH and Luftwaffe – even the energetic though lately diminished effort of the Norwegian Nazi-leader Vikund Quisling hadn't been swaying Hitler into depart from the demands of OKH and Luftwaffe. The best they had been offered was oil for the surface ships to deliver raids upon the Allied Merchantmen but so far the few attemps hadn't been too successfull mainly due to bad weather but also the strong presence of the RN and MN distant Battleships and Cruisers covering the Norwegian Convoys. Already the Kriegsmarine had suffered losses as the Gneisenau had been damaged in the sweep at Iceland during late November 1939 where the Light Cruiser Köln had been torpedoed and sunk. Gneisenau being out of operations still by May 1940 and still needing repairs though was anticipated to be back in service by late July. Scharnhorst had also sustained some damage during that action but was back in service a month later. The Light Cruisers Leipzig and Nürnberg had both been torpedoed during December 1939. Leipzig still undergoing repairs and not ready for service. Reluctant to send out Scharnhorst alone the Admirals had drawn up a sweep to Iceland by April 1940 when the seaice had lessened to raid the Norwegian Convoys. Norway convoys – some 30 had been going from Norway to Britain since the outbreak of War during 141039-070440 carrying at least 131 shiploads of timbers, telegraph poles, paper, cellulose and pulp, 77 shiploads of ore and pig iron and few of manganese and zinc. A number of convoys hadn't had their cargo specified by the Germans in Norway be they of Consular service in port cities just like every other seafaring nation especially in Narvik where some German shipping companies ran offices for the shipping of iron ore to Germany. Large number of merchantmen were going in ballast to Britain however so for a large part the convoys were for Scandinavian imports. The merchantmen came from all Scandinavia, the Baltic States and Finland with the occational Dutch, French or other Nations ships among them. The distant Battleship/Battlecruiser cover of the Convoys had been absent for some months according to the Küstenflieger/Coast Flying Group so Heavy Cruisers/Pocket Battleships Admiral Scheer and Lützow with Light Cruisers Königsberg and Karlsruhe and a screen of 10 Destroyers/Torpedoboats was send north on April Fools Day 1940. Steaming north on the 5 April the Destroyers sighted a British bound convoy escorted by a Light Cruiser and 4 Destroyers. This was what the Germans had hoped for a convoy carrying goods to make the British sustain the war. Unknown to the Germans a RN Destroyer was busy reassembling stragglers. The German squadron moving ahead the Convoy was dispersed and the RN ships turned to engage. With 6 Destroyers and the Light Cruisers fighting the RN the two Heavy Cruisers and 4 Destroyers headed for the dispersed Merchantmen. Unfortunately for the Kriegsmarine the RN Hood and Rodney was assigned as distant cover for the Convoy and was now heading for the battle. During the battle the RN Escort leader realized that his last Destroyer was heading his way with 13 ships it had managed to collect which had scattered during the night. This turn of events would serve to drag the battle out leaving time for Hood and Rodney to appear on the scene. Busy picking off Merchantmen the German Admiral too late realized the RN Battleships arriving announcing their presence with 15” and 16” shells falling on the Heavy Cruisers. The Germans quickly beat retreat though Lützow, Königsberg and Karlsruhe as well as 4 Destroyers was sunk. Getting information from the North Sea Admiral Reader would receive much praise by Hitler at the late night OKW conference of the steadfastness and aggressive activity of the Kriegsmarine though Reader well knew that the Kriegsmarine was in very bad condition with only Scharnhorst, heavy cruiser Hipper and light cruisers Nürnberg and Emden operational. The ships returning from the North Sea battle would all be in some state of needing repairs – Admiral Scheer was limping back towards Germany though RAF attacks was to be expected during her slow retreat. One Destroyer of the 6 survivors had been in so bad state as to seek port at Stavanger, Norway for emergency repairs due to the rough sea. Hopefully that would be on its way within the next 24 hours. Any future surface activity would have to await the finishing of repairs on Gneisenau still to be going on for some 3 months.
Excellent. I think Reader was possibly getting desperate to do something to earn prestige and hence influence for his service, which is supposed to have been a motivation for the Bismark sortie OTL prior to that year's big land offensive. However the Scheer and Lutzow while basically over armed CAs pay for that with a lower speed which if faced with something like Hood, even with the poor state of its engines they would struggle to get away.
Those losses and damage mean that subs aside its only really Scharnhorst & Hipper that might be available for raiding at any great distance from German bases so that greatly reduces the surface threat. Also the loss of so many DDs, especially if the one in Norway ends up being interned - or possibly having a RN force awaiting its attempts to leave, reduces the escort units available for German shipping elsewhere, which might give the British subs some opportunities although they could take some heavy losses doing so.
Which made me think of what British subs are doing. OTL they were deployed in situations they were poorly designed for, initially off occupied Norway in a northern summer keeping an eye out for an invasion from that region and then in the shallow waters of the Med in regions under Italian air cover in many cases. Both of those resulted in heavy casualties but with Norway still an independent neutral and Italy having not joined the war neither of those demands are occurring. If the bulk of the larger longer ranged subs stay in E Asia, which is where they were designed for that could make a difference if Japan was to try something.
My main thought was without the Weserubung of occupying Denmark and Norway the next on line would be a hit on the Norwegian convoys for reasons given. There had been a rather long period probably due to winter without the Battleship distand cover which might have been readopted without a Narvik Operation from the Allies in the cards. As such the Hood and Rodney may have been on duty as they had a lot during the period of the convoys. I though of having the RN sink the whole outfit but it again seemed a little over the edge at least as the weather playing against the RN in the OTL situation. Though also that without such the Kriegsmarine is in a really bad situation with Graf Spee sunk, Gneisenau and Leipzig in repairs. In effect not that different from Weserubung where Admiral Hipper, Königsberg and Karlsruhe was sunk and scuttled and Lützow damaged. The difference is that more units are out of play for quite some time with both Bismarck and Tirpitz going to be delayed in completing.
You're right the British subs will be in a better position. I don't see much change here as the French are very much alive and kicking - always ready to kick some Italians.
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